Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points .

Written by Black Winter on 11.03.2008 at 21:55

Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points as you might have noticed I am convinced by this religion.

Convinced? as in you are attracted to it? why? Me, being Buddhist I am to respect all beings for the paths they choose. But it has always puzzled me as to why this path is chosen, they have so little respect and tolerance for others. What Muslims do inwardly (to themselves) is their business, but their attitude toward the world is morally wrong to me. I am not childishly picking a fight or judging, I am just pointing out wrong actions and questioning the attraction towards them .

Written by Guest on 15.03.2008 at 04:37

Written by Black Winter on 11.03.2008 at 21:55

Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points as you might have noticed I am convinced by this religion.

Convinced? as in you are attracted to it? why? Me, being Buddhist I am to respect all beings for the paths they choose. But it has always puzzled me as to why this path is chosen, they have so little respect and tolerance for others. What Muslims do inwardly (to themselves) is their business, but their attitude toward the world is morally wrong to me. I am not childishly picking a fight or judging, I am just pointing out wrong actions and questioning the attraction towards them .

and by attitude towards the world you mean?Terrorism?

Written by Black Winter on 15.03.2008 at 18:07

Written by Guest on 15.03.2008 at 04:37

Written by Black Winter on 11.03.2008 at 21:55

Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points as you might have noticed I am convinced by this religion.

Convinced? as in you are attracted to it? why? Me, being Buddhist I am to respect all beings for the paths they choose. But it has always puzzled me as to why this path is chosen, they have so little respect and tolerance for others. What Muslims do inwardly (to themselves) is their business, but their attitude toward the world is morally wrong to me. I am not childishly picking a fight or judging, I am just pointing out wrong actions and questioning the attraction towards them .

and by attitude towards the world you mean?Terrorism?

Well not ONLY that, as only the extremist type are like that. But their attitude towards women and non-believers.

Eh, true muslums aren't neceserrily sexist. As a matter of fact, a good muslum I would say is prone to treating his woman like a queen, they just have religious precepts that makes the religion seem opressive in that way. As far as the Non-believers thing goes, well, it's no better and no worse than christianity. "Infidel" or "Heathen" the meaning equates to the same thing: believe like me or you are strayed fron the one true path, and inherently damned. But that doesn't make it wholly bad, just flawed, like any other beliefe one might follow word for word (which many people, thankfully, tend not to do)

It's quite normal that a religion claim that it is the true one,in Islam,believing in judaism and christianity as true religions and believing in Moses and Jesus (AS) is an essential part of being a muslim,this makes a muslim respect followers of other religions.
as for non believers,we are incited to invite them gently to Islam and avoid being cruel in any way, as we are only required to inform,not to make them believe.The non believers that our prophet fought were those of mecca who tortured him and his followers and made him go out from his home.
Muslims are told not to persecute,they are told not even to fight non believers when those propose peace.The core muslim nation that was founded by Muhammed(S) accepted non believers to live in it.
As for women,I agree with Arian Totalis, most of the oppressive behaviour towards women is based on middle age social traditions and not to Islam,you would be greatly surprised when you notice the differences between different muslim countries now in terms of traditions that seem to be related to Islam which is a result of the fall of the united muslim state and the disconnection between those countries,then the years of occupations accentuated those differences and even created some beliefes to keep people under illusion and ignorance

Written by Black Winter on 16.03.2008 at 12:06

It's quite normal that a religion claim that it is the true one,in Islam,believing in judaism and christianity as true religions and believing in Moses and Jesus (AS) is an essential part of being a muslim,this makes a muslim respect followers of other religions.
as for non believers,we are incited to invite them gently to Islam and avoid being cruel in any way, as we are only required to inform,not to make them believe.The non believers that our prophet fought were those of mecca who tortured him and his followers and made him go out from his home.
Muslims are told not to persecute,they are told not even to fight non believers when those propose peace.The core muslim nation that was founded by Muhammed(S) accepted non believers to live in it.
As for women,I agree with Arian Totalis, most of the oppressive behaviour towards women is based on middle age social traditions and not to Islam,you would be greatly surprised when you notice the differences between different muslim countries now in terms of traditions that seem to be related to Islam which is a result of the fall of the united muslim state and the disconnection between those countries,then the years of occupations accentuated those differences and even created some beliefes to keep people under illusion and ignorance

It's normal for an Abrahmic religion to claim to be the "One true religion." I understand that respect can still be had by maintaining this belief, but I don't believe that open mindedness will neceserrily be. I am not one, however, to push my views on to other people, so I will leave that be.

its really hard for me to talk srespectful about Isam

simply because neither religion is like politics nor God obeys to human rules,once you understand that religion is not a social phenomenon to be analysed you will definetly understand what religion is.

That's what you think,that God is created by people,of course you see how it works.
did I say that people don't obey to human rules? man!!

Written by akatana on 28.03.2008 at 01:52

God did not create man. Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent.

That's where I find fault with the Western interpretations of God. So anthropomorphic, so egotistical, so arrogant. We think of ourselves as perfect, since we rule this planet, so why wouldn't creator be just like us? This is just about as much proof as I need to dismiss the Western idea of God. I feel much more truth (with faults too) in the idea of the one reality or "God" in Theravāda Buddhism or the certain type of non-theistic Hinduism, which the name of escapes me at this moment.

Written by akatana on 28.03.2008 at 09:30

So if you ask me, yeah, the world would be a lot better if all religious people would be Buddhist.

Ha yeah, but then nothing would get accomplished!

Written by akatana on 28.03.2008 at 10:24

oh.. on the contrary dear friend, a lot would be accomplished. The question is in which direction. We grow up thinking that the right direction is technical advance, commodities, etc., while other people view happiness as the ultimate accomplishment.

Indeed, it was more of a joke. Unfortunately most of us wouldn't be satisfied with that type of life, and frankly, I don't see it going that way any time soon.

Written by akatana on 28.03.2008 at 12:11

Quote:

See suicide bombers, see abortion clinic bombers, etc.

there is no devine law about suicide bombing,it is complicated,since suicide is a major and an unforgivable sin in Islam,abortin in Islam is allowed within 4 months because we consider that abortion after this delay is just killing,doesn't that make sense?

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IF god created man, who created god?

see,God is the creator we can't ask who CREATED the CREATOR,and this is the reason why I said God does not obey human rules I mean we can't apply what we know about human nature on God then wonder why it contradicts,like why God doesn't die or why don't we see Him.

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If god created man, why did he create us so imperfect?
If god created man how do you know which god created man? Maybe it was zeus.

Well you could have asked why God created us at all that would make more sens,which is something we don't know as it is mentionned in the Quran,th apssa ge that talks about this question is in Albakara(2-30):
"Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises,glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know.""
so simply it is something that we don't know
Islam is a monotheistic religion that means there is only one God who created Heaven and earth,we don't admit that rocks can be "gods" actually there is no such thing as "gods" God is one and only,who has no son,no partner and no equivalent,the only religion that we know are abrahamic religions.

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In your opinion should sharia be the official law in the world?

In my opinion,there is no such thing,the way you imagine it as a set of rules,because there haven't been a real law since 1300 years, I am for a democracy that takes in consideration religion,because sheria law could be misused by rulers,but after all,you should know what sheria is,before asking such question,sheria is not just about "veil" and "punishments", sheria actually is a moderate way between capitalism and socialism,and if applied the right way,it guarantees social peace, freedom of thinking, possession, faith, financial relationships withoutignoring the right of the poorest...

Written by akatana on 28.03.2008 at 18:39

@ taka :
bombing does not make sense, violence is only justified in order to defend oneself, when somebody commits a sin,as long as it doesn't hurt anybody that stays between him and his lord and I think it's nobody's buisness to interfere and try to apply a punishment or revenge based on what he thinks is true,as always say that God and the Prophet(S) are not weak and don't need nobody to defend them in such a shameful way.

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So the qur'an tells us that god knows something that we don't and therefore there is reason to believe in him? Why did he not tell us what we don;t know so the atheists like myself can also believe in him? But I guess all such questions boil down to : if there is an all-powerful god, why would such a god need to create anything else? You see, the whole concept of an omnipotent god is a paradox, it cannot exist.

Well, there are many other monotheistic religions far older than abrahamic religions that also deal with the issues but I don't hear you believing in them. What is the evidence that your god created the earth and not some other. If you would have lived 2000 years ago you would have believed that zeus or zalmolxis created the universe. In 1000 years from now people will believe something else. Just because some book was written by someone who claimed to have divine inspiration does not make it true.

this is something that can be justified by absurd,supposing that god tells us everything it makes us all believe,seems okay,but then as the passage that I stated previously says,angels believe in God and praise him would it be even unnecessary to create another being that does the same as angels.
you know about your second part,it's amazing that almost every trick that pops into human mind is already mentionned in Quran,in surat AlAraf:"(what means): "[Remember] when your Lord extracted from the loins of Aadam's children their descendants and made them testify (saying): 'Am I not your Lord?' They said: 'Yes, we testify to it.' [This was] in case you say on the Day of Judgment: 'We were unaware of this.' Or you say: "It was our ancestors who worshipped others besides God and we are only their descendants. Will you then destroy us for what those falsifiers did?'"
which means that people are born with the instinct of believing in God,which is true,some of them carry it the wrong way,when they CREATE "gods" from their imagination,don't forget that even way before te Abrahamic religions there were hundreds and hundreds of prophets sent by God,each one of them had as mission to tell the truth to his own people,some of them had miracles in order to make people underestand,and indeed,some people believed while others didn't.

Quote:
ok, so tell me about sharia, because what I mean by sharia is what you see in muslim countries that apply it, and it has nothing to do with democracy and socialism.Please tell me your version of it.

telling the sheria law is like telling all Islam,which is actually very long,but you can look in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia) or you can take a look here
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/MainPage/indexe.php
then chose "discover Islam",there is no different versions of sharia,there is only a TRUE sharia and then some acts from ignorant and norrowly educated people

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One more thing. I realized after talking to some muslims that many think that the qur'an has a great deal of science in it and that this proves that it is true.

Do you believe that the qur'an has revealed scientific facts that were not known back then? Which ones exactly?

as I remember I told you some of what I consider scientific miracle in the old thread,I suppose you are kidding about this one,but here is something that I found a while ago,it's about meteors,in the Quran,God says what means:"we sent down iron..",when this revelation came,people most propbably didn't understand it and some of them must have said jokes about because apparently"we dig a cave and we get iron out of it",but new analysis and discoveries confirmed that there is no way that Iron could have been formed on earth,and that this substance came to earth from meteors,see wikipedia to verify it(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron).

The Quran is not a science book, nor it is a history book,nor it is a constitution, it is a combination of all of those,I believe that the Quran states scientific miracles but it is absolutely not everything, belief is more profound and could not be ONLY based on that, so,I will ask you to look to those points,and try to prove them wrong,by your own logical interpretation,because some of them don't even have any interpretation they are OBVIOUS,yet, I ask you to mention what you say are "OBVIOUS scientific errors".

Written by akatana on 27.03.2008 at 15:18

Written by Varegan on 27.03.2008 at 13:46

its really hard for me to talk srespectful about Isam

Why can't it be like politics, when everybody chooses their way when they are old enough to think for themselves.

Well, for some people, that's how religion is, and for some people, just like politics, they blindly follow whatever path is layed out before them by their family or social settings. Some people may be muslum out of a family traditional thing, and others may be so because they choose to. The same could be said of any religion, accept for Judaism, which states that ethnically you must be jewish to follow their doctrine.

Written by akatana on 29.03.2008 at 21:22

i just found a funny thing related to religion and science. Of course, I know that the vast majority of people don;t think like the man in the video but it still shows how some people reject truth and reality and substitute their own religious reality. this shows an extreme version of it. I guess there are also christians who think like that.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc&feature=related

the moon is half the size of the sun LMAO

the sun circles the earth because it is smaller than the earth

stupid zealots.. why won't these people just stop existing?

Every religio is false. You just mentioned to be openminded, but you don't look further than the length of your nose yourself. Fist of all, I liked the video. It makes no sense to say that the earth is flat like an pancake. I do not believe in the Islam, but I see that Black Winter is less narrowminded than you. You only want to take a look at the "right" scientific books, other scientific books and ideas make no sense to you. While you claim things proven without having any proof:
(13) Animals & Men Evolved by Natural Selection
(17) No Center of the Universe
Both of these are not proven, why do you claim so? There is enough to disagree with in Islam, but science can't provide for a solution, it is a faith without a soul and Islam is a faith with a soul. Science doesn't know lovew, only egoistic behaviour with an lovefeeling emotion. Don't be proud on your faith, don't be prpoud for your dedication to your almight godhead science, it won't last forever you know.

Written by akatana on 29.03.2008 at 22:56

If you look back at history,you will most probably find that some philosophers guessed some things,that's true, but the conclusion you make that they were "known before the Quran" is definetly illogical,because,like some of those said things,some other philosophers said hundreds of different and contradictive ideas about the universe,and here I remind you of what you said about probability,you have billions of people saying different things,some of them will probably say truth,not because they definetly know it, but just because they did,so forgive me if I find your argument very wrong.Because if,according to your logic,it's Muhammed (S) who did everything by himself,that he traveled,studied,translated which doesn't make any sense,why didn't he quote some wrong facts?He must have been genius to make the call about what he should "write down",no, he wasn't a genius,he was just a good man that God blessed him with prophecy.

About the creation,you should've had read the verse that you quoted before analysing it,because it says what means that God turned to the sky, when it was still gas, then in another location in the Quran,God says what means "..Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to beone solid mass that we unstitched(exploded into existence, the word in arabic means a violent and quick separation)? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?" I think, there could not be possible for an explosion to take place with no "energy",I am not saying that this is an absolute confirmation of th 'Big Bang' theory but it describes what seems to be the most likely theory about the creation.

Note that I recommand that you make your research based on unbiased sources to avoid any kind of extremism and wrong affirmation, like the Richard Carrier article "Epicurus vs. Mohammed" that you just copied a great part of it without verification,because it is real that Epicurus was a great man but the you should review the list of the things "he predicted" from a different source.Also the verses you quote,when I try to look where you get this translation from,I only find those lame websites that enjoy diffusing lies,if the conversation is going to evoluate,you shoud take Aei Ontos's advice and be more open minded.
And I have to rmind you of what I already said,the Quran is not a science book,containing scientific facts doesn't mean that we transform the book to a greek philosophy or scince.
cheers

You say you took a closer at all of the points I provided,and you found them vague,okay,let's start from what I stated the last,the verse that says "we SENT DOWN iron.." tell me how this could be vague, I decided not to provide a list of verses where you can focus on few and ignore the rest,so tell me about this first then I will give you more,and more.I mainly don't approve the way you provide points,that are not your own points,plus the sources from which you bring "verses" where you can see obviously that the goal is to make fun,by adding odd words to the original verses,I ask you to verify from the verses you copy from those sites from an acceptable source, that way you could save for me a lot of time.

When I said that the points were not yours,I was speaking about the Richard Carrier article about "Muhammed vs Epicurus".
Back to the discussion about Iron,I did not get your main thesis, are you saying that the verse is actually wrong because iron is present in other forms, or are you saying that the word used "sent down" is not understood the right way,so I will try to answer both of the ideas

Quote:

Iron is believed to be the sixth most abundant element in the universe, formed as the final act of nucleosynthesis by carbon burning in massive stars. While it makes up only about 5% of the Earth's crust, the earth's core is believed to consist largely of an iron-nickel alloy comprising 35% of the mass of the Earth as a whole. Iron is consequently the most abundant element on Earth, but only the fourth most abundant element in the Earth's crust[3] where it is the second most abundant metal after aluminium. Most of the iron in the crust is found combined with oxygen as iron oxide minerals such as hematite and magnetite. About 1 in 20 meteorites consist of the unique iron-nickel minerals taenite (35-80% iron) and kamacite (90-95% iron). Although rare, meteorites are the major form of natural metallic iron on the earth's surface.

if you see, we are talking about the iron that Man uses like it's said in the verse "..strength and advantages to men..", I know that iron can be present in ionic form in blood for example but we don't actally extract it from blood to use it as a metal.
Now about the use of the word,"sent down",in the Quran, there was no talk about "sending down prophets" the only persons claimed to be sent down are Adam and Eve,I looked for the use of the word throughout the quran,and it's used in thoses cases:God's words were sent down(Quran,inspiration), water is sent down (rain), and angels are sent down, the word was not used in other contexts so I think it is precise enoughit is not like ""whenever something is not known, religious people attribute it to being sent down from god",it is about sending down something from above, you have point when you say that interpretations can be illogical sometimes,but,yet, your interpretation of this verse is actually not suitable,you just took the obvious most logical interpretation,and threw it away,and proposed another.
Of course I am sorry if I insulted you in anyway, anyway I did not intend to,since there is no use of insulting you or even getting mad.
I think there are many websites that translate the Quran,remember that once the Quran is translated,it is no more the literal words of God,it is just an essay to express the meaning.
http://www.islam.tc/quran/

You pretty much did not read what I wrote, I told that the verse is about the Iron that Man use not the FeXX of blood,earth core etc.. because it says "..strength and advantages to men.."
and, I am not talking about "other religions" I am talking about ISLAM I told what was believed to be 'sent down' from God so there is no need for taking it to wrong directions,plus it is a serious mistake to try to compare your logic with the the will of God,you will draw no proper conclusion if you keep going like that, "Why did God say so and not so?" of course if the thing He said was wrong that gives you at least the right to ask about it,but since it is correct,you say why there is not more??Man! Add to that what I already said is that the Quran is a very complex devine book, it is neither a science,nor a history book, you can't expect to find chemical equations in the Quran.
What chronogical order? the linker 'And' is the last time I checked a linker that does not express order in time.
I don't believe in Hinduism because it is a man made religion,with all my respect to its believers, which doesn't make sense, having no religioon would have more sense, to me of couse.
and I don't see that the passage you stated (2:261) is anyway wrong,but I won't discuss it until we get done with this meteor thing.
and the source you provided seems to me fine,you can take from it.

Quote:
there is a strong suggestion that it is the same way god sent prophets and the book

No,please take caution about words,because in arabic changing the sign of a letter may turn the meaning upside down,not to mention actually changing the words, prophets were not 'sent down',they were just sent, here again a remindal of what was claimed as "sent down" in the Quran:
-The Book
-Inspiration
-Angels
-rain
-iron

the first three, belong clearly to the same category, the last two belong to the other, none of those two categories are false,and now tell me that people back did not know where rain comes from that's why it is sent down, that would be valid if you tell me another thing that people back then did not know and was explained as sent down.

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Remember that people used to think god resides in the sky so it;s natural to state that it came from above.

again, in the Quran, God is everywhere, as stated in the verse 2:115 "To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient."

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Furthermore I told you things that appear in the verses which are wrong scientifically. So actually both my points are valid.

none of your points are valid since what is in the verse is not wrong in anyway, you are making less and less points

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The word 'and' is a strong indication of order. Think of what you did today like you would say it to someone, You will say : I got up and went to school and back home and etc... You would not say : I went home and went to school and got out of bed. I hope this makes it clear.

No, 'and' is usually used to enumerate things, if I wanted to express order in time I would more probably use 'then' not 'and':
I got up then went to school then back home and etc..
seems more correct to me

Quote:
Why is hinduism a man made religion and islam is not? If you would have been born in india, chances are that you would have believe that hinduism is true and others are man made.

yeah the same weak argument, that's why we introduce our religion so that people wont say that they did not know since they were born I don't know where.

Of course, some interpretations of verses to be science is very lame, I used to trust some books on this material since they indicate trustable sources but then I decided that some of them don't make sense to me and that are actually crimes in behalf of the Quran, maybe it is true but it is not clear, but yet, you can't ignore other clear correct claims.

Well, this is going a bit above my understanding. What really is the keymessage of Islam, black winter?
I've got some muslim friends, but I don't get much more out of them than:
1. familyrelations are very important
2. Follow the five pillars
3. the Qu'ran is always right and:
4. Be nice to others
Is this about it, or are there some really important things in the Islam that I (or they) have missed out?

@taka
Okay,this is a circle we are in,tell me one thing,is the verse wrong in anyway? I think not, what comes first to a person's mind when he reads it? plus,in the Quran, you can find all kinds of issues adressed in one sura or even somethimes in one verse I will let you to verify yourself.

Quote:

and the christians and other religions think the same, they introduce their religion so you cannot claim that you did not know it. I am sure Aei Ontos would go to exreme lengths to prove that christianity is right and convert you. But imagine 1000 years ago when there were no means of transmitting the religion. A hindu would have not been able to know of islam, not to speak of the people that lived for thousands of years before islam . Does it not strike you as odd that religions appear at a moment in time and they disappear together with the civilization, like the ancient greek, roman gods, etc? If god is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, he would surely know everything, and there is no sense in such a context of sending messengers to earth at a particular time. I mean if islam is the right religion, why did he not send the book 4000 years ago? Or the prophets? Does that make sense to you. I cannot explain it more clearly. The concept of omniscience and omnipotence does not make sense when looking at how religions were founded and how they evolved.

You should pretty much stick to one principle in your arguments,about history, because I remember you saying in the "the current situation is the mideast thread" that you don't care about historical details but that you care more about what is right now,and here you bring every kind of possible argument which makes me confused to answer you coherantly.
meanwhile,before the abrahamic religions, since the creation of Man,there were prophets sent all the time to remind people of what they actually are,remember that Adam (A) himself was a prophet, but leave this aside,God is just, people should remember that they will not be persecuted even a little bit,every person will face what he himself did,good and bad,we anyway have no buisness wondering about those who have not been warned,if we admit for a second that such people exist,because we know, and that's all, I have been warned,and you have been warned,and that takes the excuse from you.

@Aei Ontos

I can answer you with this the verse (90-16)
"Surely God enjoins the doing of justice and the doing of good (to others) and the giving to the kindred, and He forbids indecency and evil and rebellion; He admonishes you that you may be mindful"

Faith in Islam,is believing in its five pillars,which are:
-Believing in God (one, with no partner,and no equivalent)
-Believing in Angels
-Believing in the holy books ( ncluding the pages of Prophet Abraham (Ibraaheem ), the Psalms of Prophet David (Daawood ), the Torah of Prophet Moses (Moosaa ), the Injeel (Gospel) of Prophet Jesus ('Eesaa ), and finally, the Quran of Prophet Muhammad.)and in the prophets and messengers of God
-Believing in the Judgment day,that it is coming anyway
-Believing in Fate

Faith in Islam,should be also expressed by one's deeds,being good and doing good,well treatment,and be up to the responsability that God gave to Mankind when he placed them on earth,to maintain it,and to make it a better place.

that is what you need to tell yourself my friend,I personally went through very severe periods of doubt, and I know both of the feelings.But I suppose when you find some religious statement,you automatically try to prove it wrong,for me,and I have no interest in lying to you,it happens to me very often to doubt about things,probably because I have not been actually muslim not for a long time, and I always come back to my senses after realizing the truth,I mean from my personal experience and observation.

You are the one who is getting words out of context, "trying to convert aei ontos to islam" the man asked a question and I replied, I don't intend to start a discussion about YOU and ME since it is not the purpose of this topic, and honestly,partly because I don't care what you think of me. I am told to inform but barely to convince.But still you are free to post any of what you consider "errors" so we can unveil the truth,you are free to ask about any other issues, and I can always show you more miracles in the Quran, because I may have found more impressive things.

Gladly, and I hope we don't get into cyclical arguments as long as it is not necessary,okay here is a quote from the Quran,and I will let you look into it carefully first:

Sura Annajm (53-45,46)


"He is the One who created the two kinds, male and female,from a tiny drop of semen when ejected"

Written by akatana on 12.04.2008 at 09:56

When I first read this I interpreted it as god creating the first humans when masturbating.

Oh yea... I can't stop from laughing
Laughing on your own is not that bad
I thing I'm gonna read the quran one day. funny mysterious things lie withing..

Pardon me for interrupting your discussion but from my point of view this debate or call it how you want will last a while.... Black Winter will just not give up no matter how absurd his quran an be, no matter how many scientific facts his belief will defy, no matter what.
I searched on the internet about the Apostasy in Islam and I really got scared:
In Islamic law (sharia), the consensus view is that a male apostate must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or converted under duress, for example, due to an imminent danger of being killed.
Most Islamic scholars agree that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is beheading.

If you want to do that Black Winter I hope you are just nuts.
I read some more punishments:

Some states in northern Nigeria have reintroduced Sharia courts. In practice the new Sharia courts in Nigeria have most often meant the reintroduction of relatively harsh punishments without respecting the much tougher rules of evidence and testimony. The punishments include amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery...

Oh my science! I must really read that! Can someone give me a web site where I can find the quran?