Written by Rasputin on 04.12.2014 at 14:41

And I doubt Mary that if you lived in Saudi Arabia or any other Islam dominated country we would see you here on the internet, conversing with all of us.

Never knew that Iran isn't Islam dominated.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.12.2014 at 19:39

Written by Rasputin on 04.12.2014 at 14:41

And I doubt Mary that if you lived in Saudi Arabia or any other Islam dominated country we would see you here on the internet, conversing with all of us.

Never knew that Iran isn't Islam dominated.

Never knew that Dutch are so politically correct ;-).
To add to that, we actually had an Iranian member who had to use anti-censorship to access Metalstorm (FreeGate).
I find it to be about as bad as islamophobes, because eventually what matters is correcting people based on accuracy, truth and fairness and not what a rigid political ideology, in this case multiculturalism, finds to be "in line" with.

Written by angel. on 04.12.2014 at 10:33

I don't want to get stuck in labyrinth of judgmental discussions
I suggest just want one thing to you deadone : take a middle path. I lived with muslims my whole life, they have their own mistakes, like every other person can have, but by no means they're just the ultimate evils of Earth, with removing them from earth, I doubt if everything will....

The bottom line : " Hate only breeds hate. "

I was expecting good counterattack to deadone from your side.

You just sway away and attested rather weak points to his strong voice of opinions on Islam. Considering you live with muslims and know the diameterics of their working(or rather better than deadone), you should've reverted strongly against his ideologies on Muslim culture. Coming up glossary conclusion about "hate breeds hate", "we're the ultimate evils of Earth" "have their own mistakes" and suggesting "take a middle path" surrenders you and gives an another guy an edge.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.12.2014 at 19:39

Written by Rasputin on 04.12.2014 at 14:41

And I doubt Mary that if you lived in Saudi Arabia or any other Islam dominated country we would see you here on the internet, conversing with all of us.

Never knew that Iran isn't Islam dominated.

Oh, so she's from Iran is she? So her husband has no problem with her messing around on the internet, or she did not end up in a harem yet?

Written by deadone on 05.12.2014 at 01:45



Alas the accuracy of the English language is non-existent. The form of the language is such that a lot can be misconstrued from even simple sentences. This is why legal English is so convoluted to the lay person. :p

In any case my main points was that there's been an increased upsurge of conservative Islam (as opposed to increased secularisation) across the globe and that these values often clash with Western ones.

My apologize if my English is far from perfect, it's not my mother tongue. I try and keep the semantics clear.

True dat.

Rasputin, You're trying so hard to offend me, or let's say a group of ethnicity but really you're mostly offending yourself and the education system where you studied in, the media you used, the books you've read and so on... good job !

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 04.12.2014 at 21:10

I was expecting good counterattack to deadone from your side.

You just sway away and attested rather weak points to his strong voice of opinions on Islam. Considering you live with muslims and know the diameterics of their working(or rather better than deadone), you should've reverted strongly against his ideologies on Muslim culture. Coming up glossary conclusion about "hate breeds hate", "we're the ultimate evils of Earth" "have their own mistakes" and suggesting "take a middle path" surrenders you and gives an another guy an edge.

I don't need to counterattack people who don't bother to educate themselves specially that they're living in one of the most powerful societies in terms of having so many scientific productions and discoveries by deals of great scientists, experts, philosophers and historians.

His strong voice of opinions ? Indeed you must add to it a big portion of backwardness. I really feel bad that they live in Australia, Rasputin in USA, one of those places with big scientific productions so many sources for reading and getting the accurate information, unlike we poor primitive Iranians who dressed their genitals with leaves and we're just barking at each others in our caves and defend ourselves with wearing bombs from toe to head instead of logic or science and blah blah blah, they could have used all the sciences are produced in their homelands but I see that their tone is not even close to having scientific outlook although they have high speed Internets, big libraries, liberal society and blah blah.

I'm pretty sure Rasputin also believes people ride camels in Iran.

Written by Bad English on 05.12.2014 at 17:25

Actually Iranians are in top member here into MS Iran - 1098
non other islam countries are mentioned here
I remember we hade some Turkish members as dark sun, others, there was Bararely from Kuwait , Ylside, from Morocco , that guy from Tunisia who was in prog rock, abrogrej and imperial doom from Lebabon maybe one guy as well
Frodd, Roro from Egypt, but same time I can name 20 Iranians here + we have more,

That negates internet censorship how?
I don't know what's the censorship status today - a year or two ago I used to use http://www.blockediniran.com/ and http://viewdns.info/ (still works for China). Both are giving me errors on Iran. Maybe or probably there's just less internet censorship since Rouhani or the use of software like freegate is more widespread. I think the best thing would be to directly ask Iranian forum members.

Written by Monolithic on 05.12.2014 at 20:58

I'm pretty sure Rasputin also believes people ride camels in Iran.

You're sarcastic, but...I personally met some people who explicitly believe that the main transportation Middle East are camels. You don't have to guess from where.

But deadone and rasputin once again show they don't know single shit about islam and extreme muslims. Especially rasputin...

Probably also worth mentioning that the English language has twice as many words as the next closest language. Surely then, if used well, it's the least ambiguous of all languages because one can more accurately put into words what one thinks than with any other language.

Written by angel. on 05.12.2014 at 16:54

Rasputin, You're trying so hard to offend me, or let's say a group of ethnicity but really you're mostly offending yourself and the education system where you studied in, the media you used, the books you've read and so on... good job !

Still better than being a Muslim

Written by Candlemass on 05.12.2014 at 22:08

Written by Monolithic on 05.12.2014 at 20:58

I'm pretty sure Rasputin also believes people ride camels in Iran.

You're sarcastic, but...I personally met some people who explicitly believe that the main transportation Middle East are camels. You don't have to guess from where.

haha yeah. I'm afraid I use sarcasm to the point where it becomes stale.

As an Iranian living abroad (if you can still call UAE abroad) I have to say the fault lines and rifts between Islam as a religion and the youth generation in those so called islamic societies are becoming all too obvious.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 06.12.2014 at 02:11

But deadone and rasputin once again show they don't know single shit about islam and extreme muslims. Especially rasputin...

https://actforamerica.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/shariah-shariah-is-an-abomination-in-god-s-eye-political-poster-1299583591.jpg

Written by Rasputin on 06.12.2014 at 04:54

Still better than being a Muslim

I'm sorry but shit happens sometimes, it depends if you're comparing yourself with the zealous or some regular people who are just a believer in this ideology, in that sense there is no big difference between your mentality and a zealous, I wish you could start reading instead of trying so hard and posting here to just prove your claims.

Written by deadone on 06.12.2014 at 03:10

And you as always display nothing but bluster (and by the sounds of it drunken bluster.

A well informed drunk can always make sense more than a discriminating person with different flaws in mentality such as projection and other- ization
No one knows everything but an avid reader's statements are sounding far rational than someone who just limits himself.

There must be a lawful control for the wicked ones and leave the rest alone, also based on human's rights everyone must be free to choose their own ideology, the wicked people are everywhere among scientists, artists, Christians, Buddhists, atheists... But you'e obsessed with looking at black side. Islam sounds crazy and scary to you ?! Of course there are wrongdoings and controversial parts in it but dude that's not all about it.
I think you're not a traveler, you never get out of Australia, but try inviting some Muslims to your house, some regular people I mean, communicate with them, you should also go to their houses too, you will know what I mean. There are things you must experience them on your own.
Studying religions is somehow interesting because there are so many hints in these studies about how humanity behaved throughout history. But you can't study any religion by just referring back to a certain group of people from that religion and then making judgmental conclusions based on them. There must be a very varied and wide researching in this sense.

Written by deadone on 06.12.2014 at 01:58

Your English is fine The problem is the English language in itself which often opens itself to ambiguity.

based on your writing's tone here this is an example of porjection in your mentality.

Written by Rasputin on 06.12.2014 at 04:58

https://actforamerica.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/shariah-shariah-is-an-abomination-in-god-s-eye-political-poster-1299583591.jpg

What about these sides of muslims that you may never hear about them in your popular mainstream T.V. Channel : Muslim scientists and their arts Will you start some reading ?

Written by Rasputin on 06.12.2014 at 04:54

Written by angel. on 05.12.2014 at 16:54

Rasputin, You're trying so hard to offend me, or let's say a group of ethnicity but really you're mostly offending yourself and the education system where you studied in, the media you used, the books you've read and so on... good job !

Still better than being a Muslim

Great. It's resorted to 'I know you are, what am I'.
Awaiting the inevitable 'Your mama so fat' lines.

Written by deadone on 06.12.2014 at 03:10

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 06.12.2014 at 02:11

But deadone and rasputin once again show they don't know single shit about islam and extreme muslims. Especially rasputin...

"Look at me I'm Marcel. I know everything. Just don't expect me to say what everything is."

I don't know why Marcel unnecessary put his foot in(where he doesn't want to) and make a laughing stock out of himself.

I feel sorry for dutch guy.

The whole attempt by indicters or apologists to defend or attack "the true Islam" is a waste of time. There is no true Islam. There are many versions of it. Some historical, some current. Some communal, some personal. They are all called "Muslim" by virtue of family resemblance, not essential properties they share. There are no invisible properties that exist in people by virtue of being "Muslim" more than the cognitive content they hold i.e. their version of Islam.

Written by angel. on 06.12.2014 at 07:22

Written by Rasputin on 06.12.2014 at 04:58

https://actforamerica.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/shariah-shariah-is-an-abomination-in-god-s-eye-political-poster-1299583591.jpg

What about these sides of muslims that you may never hear about them in your popular mainstream T.V. Channel : Muslim scientists and their arts Will you start some reading ?

Those are not contradicting statements.
It takes only one example to refute what that image suggests: one example of a version of Sharia that de-facto punishes for acid throwing where it exists.
Otherwise suggesting that worries about versions of Sharia that turn the other cheek or advocate acid throwing are baseless is false.

@Candlemass
And the only version of Islam that is picking up the numbers is the radical islam and it will continue forward.

And yet no one still explained to me the instances of Muslim violence in England, Sweden, Germany, and especially France. Those were all "peaceful Muslims" and then boom you see them in the street raising hell and trying to push their agenda through threats of violence.

@Mary

That still does not make me feel any more different or more safe. So what if you have a few Muslims here and there that are doing art and science, the Nazis did as well, but that did not make them love the Jews, Slavs and any other "inferior" group any better. The issue is your ideology, and your lack of criticism and rational thought within Islam. You can't debate or discuss anything in regards to Koran, Allah or Muhammad because you will die if you do it. Remember when they made a cartoon of Muhammad? What happened? Massive threats of violence and death from "peaceful" Muslims. On the other side you can bash Christ, God and any other thing from Xtian doctrine and no one will bat an eye at that. Christianity is truly tolerant these days, in comparison to Islam which never was and never will be.

Also, some food for thought, since Muslims can't be trusted.

Ilam is an inherently subversive ideology. It even uses ignorant Muslims to give the Kafir (a derogatory term for non-believers) the illusion of assimilation. Islam is Jihad, as Muhammad stated that it is the moral duty of devout Muslims to engage in Jihad of the sword and the pen (war and war propaganda).[1] In the words of Mohammad, war is deceit.[2]

Forms of Islamic Deceit [3]

Taqiyya (Shia) or Muda'rat (Sunni): tactical deceit for the purposes of spreading Islam. [4] [5]
Kitman: deceit by omission.[6]
Tawriya: deceit by ambiguity.[7]
Taysir: deceit through facilitation (not having to observe all the tenets of Sharia).[8]
Darura: deceit through necessity (to engage in something "Haram" or forbidden).[9]
Muruna: the temporary suspension of Sharia in order that Muslim immigrants appear "moderate." So through the principle of Hijra (Muslim Immigration), the early Muslims are a "red herring" or a Trojan Horse. The Kafir or Kuffar community gets the false sense that the early immigrants are not a threat, at least until the Muslim community has gained strength.[10]

Important Islamic Terms [11]

Al-Wara' Wal-Bara: This "requires Muslims to love all other Muslims, to help Muslims against non-Muslims, which could include sheltering terrorists, etc., and to shun, oppose, hate, and make jihad?including war?on non-Muslims."[12] [13]

Hudna: a temporary truce (often portrayed as "peace" to the kafir), which the Muslims can break at any time when strategically advantageous. It is usually for the purposes of rearming and regrouping (see Palestinians and Israel).[14][15]

Hijra: Muslim immigration in order to peacefully populate and gain strength in a Kafir country. This can be used in combination with Muruna.[16] [17]

Conditional Behavior: Following Mohammad's example (i.e., Mecca vs. Medina), the principle of when weak preach peace, when strong wage war.[18][19}

Dualist logic: When the Qu'ran contains conflicting statements, they are still both true since they are the words of Allah. Under Western logic, if there are two conflicting statements (e.g., "There is no compulsion in religion" and "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him"), only one can be true and the other is false. This dualist logic allows the faithful to use whichever verse will propel the spread Islam (usually the peaceful verse repeated in English for the kafir and the violent verse repeated in Arabic to the faithful).[20]

Abrogation ("Naskh"): When there are two conflicting statements, the "truer," authoritative statement is the later more violent one, which takes precedence over the earlier peaceful statement in regards to the course of action a devout Muslim should take to further the spread of Islam.[21] [22]

Alternate Definitions: The Islamic definitions of the words "peace," "tolerance," "freedom," and "equality" are different than the West's definitions. The Islamic definitions are compatible with Jihad and Islamic intolerance.[23]

Haram vs. Halal: Even the actions that Muslims claim are against Sharia Law (i.e., Haram or forbidden) can be acceptable (i.e., Halal or permissible) in order to spread Islam. For example, under Sharia Law, homosexuality is Haram, and homosexuals are to be killed. Yet, an Imam issued a Fatwa (a religious legal pronouncement and decree) allowing for sodomy between two males in order for the suicide bomber's anus to be stretched to accommodate explosives. So what is Halal and what is Haram is based on the intention ("Niyya") of the actor. In the West we call this "the ends justifies the means." [24] [25]

FOOTNOTES

[1] Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 26.
[2] Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269.
[3] Jon MC,"Some Islamic Doctrines," March 20, 2013.
[4] Andrew Campbell, "'Taqiyya': How Islamic Extremists Deceive the West," June 1, 2005.
[5] Raymond Ibrahim, "How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War: Defeating Jihadist Terrorism,", Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2010, pp. 3-13.
[6] Campbell, "'Taqiyya': How Islamic Extremists Deceive the West," June 1, 2005.
[7] Ibrahim, "Tawriya: New Islamic Doctrine Permits 'Creative Lying'," February 28, 2012.
[8] Ibrahim, "Top Muslim Cleric Qaradawi Urges Western Muslims to 'Liberalize' (The Concept of Taysir)", July 23, 2010.
[9] Jon MC. "Some Islamic Doctrines," March 20, 2013.
[10] Walid Shoebat & Ben Barrack, "Muruna: Violating Sharia to Fool the West: The Sunni Doctrine of Muruna takes Taqiyya a Step Further," February 18, 2012.
[11] MC, Some Islamic Doctrines.
[12] Ibid
[13] David Bukay, "Islam's Hatred of the Non-Muslim," Middle East Quarterly, Summer 2013, pp. 11-2.
[14] Ibrahim, "How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War," Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2010, pp. 3-13.
[15] Denis MacEoin, "Tactical Hudna and Islamist Intolerance," Middle East Quarterly, Summer 2008, pp. 39-48.
[16] MC."Some Islamic Doctrines,," March 20, 2013.
[17] Janet Levy, "The Hijra: Modern Day Trojan Horse: The Islamic Doctrine of Immigration," August 16, 2009.[18] Ibrahim, "How Circumstance Dictates Islamic Behavior: Preach Peace When Weak, Wage War When Strong," January 18, 2012.
[19] MC, "Words of peace in the Koran," April 10, 2013.
[20] Bill Warner, "Statistical Islam," October 6, 2010.
[21] Ibid.
[221 David Bukay, "Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam," Middle East Quarterly, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11.
[23] MC, "Islamic Concepts Misunderstood by Westerners," June 5, 2011.
[24] Ibrahim. "Sodomy 'for the Sake of Islam,'" July 12, 2012.
[25] Ibrahim. "The Threat of Islamic Betrayal," March 27, 2013.

Written by Rasputin on 07.12.2014 at 05:05

And yet no one still explained to me the instances of Muslim violence in England, Sweden, Germany, and especially France. Those were all "peaceful Muslims" and then boom you see them in the street raising hell and trying to push their agenda through threats of violence.

Again, not everyone are politically correct lunatics or Maoists. I doubt anyone claimed "all Muslims in France, are peaceful" . It would be actually absurd to except that from any group of people in the first place.
Because individuals from a Muslim background in European countries tend to be over-represented in violent crimes does not imply a single cause or that single cause is a religious belief. Sometimes it is the case, and the UK government is spending a lot on anti-radicalization programs, but trying to stick it over and over again to the definition of "Muslim" or "All Muslims" is getting old quite frankly.

If you're truly interested in subjects of this nature, I suggest you take a course in statistics.

Written by deadone on 08.12.2014 at 02:40

Written by Candlemass on 06.12.2014 at 12:11

The whole attempt by indicters or apologists to defend or attack "the true Islam" is a waste of time. There is no true Islam. There are many versions of it. Some historical, some current. Some communal, some personal. They are all called "Muslim" by virtue of family resemblance, not essential properties they share. There are no invisible properties that exist in people by virtue of being "Muslim" more than the cognitive content they hold i.e. their version of Islam.

Totally agree.

However for the most part, Muslims live in very conservative societies. Many of these societies are not "modern" and many are extremely poor and uneducated.

Even in wealthy countries, they live according to very strict Islamic codes (e.g. Saudi Arabia). And interestingly enough conservative Islam is growing in nominally secular and industrialised countries like Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia.

The modern "secularised" Muslim is rare and appears to be getting ever rarer if events in countries like Turkey and Malaysia are anything to go by.

I live in Turkey which has mostly Muslim population. All I can say about the religious culture in our country is it's very complicated. People can be respectful and they might have lack of respect at times, but the government is using Islam as an indicator of "we" and "them" which cause trouble between people's relationships through their beliefs. As far as I know the first command in Islam is "read" which most people don't and they just behave according to what they are told. However, people do not let you question the religion; some people think it's the most-scientific-based belief. Just saying... (btw there are some festivals and events going on here like Rock Off or Unirock Festival, no doubts about cancelling concerts like in Russia)

Message for Mary:

Look at how Candlemass has defend his views on Islam. You might be knowing more about Islam than him but I like his defense.

To be honest, 30% of you at most understand what he means with family resemblance or essential properties, so it's not as if his is the most effective rhetoric to win an internet argument. He is right on that point, of course, but it's generally smarter to stick to a register you have mastered than attempt to mimick someone else's style. Islam does not need to be defended, anyhow, because no intellectually credible criticism has been mounted against it.

That's not to say there aren't real problems with some correlation to Islam. What the exact relationship is, however, and what conclusions we should draw from that is less clear. I don't really know Islam so it's hard for me to say, but as a medievalist I am inclined to think its effect is probably a lot more positive and, above all, diverse than it's made out to be. That's because the Middle Ages are used as a prime example of the corruption, backwardness and totalitarian cruelty of Christianity (which we know so much better than Islam), and even that isn't true at all. In the supposedly darkest age of the church, I can sincerely say (as more or less atheist and unaffiliated, hence fairly impartial) that the net sum of medieval Christianity was positive rather than negative. Given such an estimate in contrast with the overwhelmingly negative and one-sided public opinion, I find it likely that it's very much the case with Islam too. It is pretty unlikely that a religion would have gained so many supporters and survived so many centuries if it wasn't largely a positive force. In the end, though, religion is just life and subject to all the ups and downs, ugliness and beauty, moral shades of gray and diversity of opinion and circumstance as anything else. It seems pointless to have a strong opinion on "Islam" at all.

Written by deadone on 08.12.2014 at 02:34

A lot of it has not resulted from "radicalisation." Rather it's due to the fact that many Muslims migrating to Australia are from extremely conservative societies like Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan..

I don't know about people migrated from Afghanistan and Pakistan, but again your are proving that you have no fucking knowledge of what you talk. What is fundamentally Islam
and what daily practiced among regular people of Iran are far too things, and it is also far different from what is practiced in Afghanistan or Pakistan, it is too different that even people from Pakistan or Afghanistan think that Iranians are not really that religious in general. Then I must tell you that the population who migrates from Iran are 80 percent of time among the most educated, most qualified population and among them there are people with good financial state, this population migrate for the sake of getting better education or career or living condition, not promoting their personal beliefs. I hope you can understand. But I highly doubt.

Written by deadone on 08.12.2014 at 02:34

gang rape of non-Muslim women.

are you really kidding me or you're serious ?! This is considered a big crime due Islamic teachings, no muslim can even consider such thing ! This is an absolute insult, I believe you're hiding your racism beneath these discriminating statements about muslims. I wonder if you were saying the same thing about Jews you could still post comments here, you should have definitely banned.

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 09.12.2014 at 12:08


Look at how Candlemass has defend his views on Islam. You might be knowing more about Islam than him but I like his defense.

You know I am defending people's right, human rights to choose their own system of beliefs, do you even know what is human rights ?

Written by Bad English on 09.12.2014 at 14:08

true but many cases someone chose for the people, many cases ppl don't know they have wrights to choose

That's something else and there comes the education to help them.

Written by angel. on 09.12.2014 at 13:17

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 09.12.2014 at 12:08


Look at how Candlemass has defend his views on Islam. You might be knowing more about Islam than him but I like his defense.

Do you even know what is human rights ?

No, I'm seeing this for the first time.

Please teach me.

I think I posted an explanation of Muslim behavior. No Muslim would rape, honor kill, blow himself up, but that happens and will continue to happen. Like Deadone said, honor killings are not even mention as that, they are just called murder, the same thing from what I hear goes on in EU as well. I find it extremely interesting how much the people, media and governments are afraid to call it out how it is, and show that Muslims are not welcome in the Western society until they leave their backwards notions at the border, but that does not happen, instead, they want to create a new Islamic gutter, where all non Muslims are persecuted and murdered, women gang raped, their noses and genitalia cut, and ultimately burned, stoned or shot in the head. None of those things happen right? All those Muslims have it wrong, right? Alright, I say it again, show me the outrage of the Muslim community when something like that happens? You're not going to, because it is accepted, allowed and even supported because deep down they know that once they constitute a majority they will dictate the rules.
They want Sharia in every country, and they will get it because people simply didn't take the time to research Islam and be very afraid of it, because it is not peaceful, it is not tolerant and will only generate more death and destruction.

Like I must say that metalheads are bunch of brain dead church burners alcoholic junkies filled with hatred and they are the people who are raised on extremist ideas so they get involved in violent actions of attacking their fans, stealing money from the friends and they promote attacking ( based on two or three events that happened here and there), raping and gangbang-ing women as it is all written in the lyrics of different bands, sang and praised by them, metalheads are just into death, violence, destruction, vandalism, backwardness and aggression, are you guys even sane ? In what fucking cave you're typing these none senses ?

I can't go on wasting my breath on you. Have fun with your absolute uneducated mindsets, I definitely feel sorry for the societies you are living in them.