Written by Rasputin on 07.01.2015 at 22:10

Muslims in France have more freedom than even the Christians.

How so ?

Quote:
And they reason why they are not well liked is because they are not assimilating with the culture of the country they live in, they instead push their own agenda and want Sharia Law.

Last time I checked, all the muslims I know act like any other "western individual" and are very much happy with this life style, not giving a shit about sharia and other extemist crap. How can this be possible ?

Quote:
Every country must be threatening Muslims, since they seem to raise hell in Germany, Austria, Sweden, Denmark and Spain. It's very interesting that only that one religion is oppressed and everyone else can believe and practice what they want. Why is that I wonder? Is it because people finally started realizing how bad Islam is, or is it that the Muslims are full of shit, and they want rights and privileges that others can't get?

Funny that you mention Spain. Here we have the glorious catholic church high in power since the middle ages with outrageous privileges and sometimes trying to force on people their ideas (thankfully with less power each time, but resorting way to much to political maneuvering) so your argument seems flawed, to say the least...

Excuse my rant.

Written by IronAngel on 07.01.2015 at 20:12

I am under the impression France is rather bad about freedom of religion. You got shit like not being permitted to wear a crucifix to school, which is bound to appear unbelievable and provocative to people from, well, almost any other society. So it is with good reason French muslims feel their religion threatened, not just their ethnicity. There seems to be a very strong anti-religion atmosphere in France with very few ways for religion to defend and assert itself, which is bound to lead to tensions. (Mind you, I am just going off impressions, I don't speak French so my sources are limited.)

This is related to the above comments, not so much the attack itself. I find it a little dubious to speculate the motives and background there, because we don't know anything and terrorist groups tend to claim religion as their chief motive in order to promote conflicts, rally support and create fear, while the truth is usually quite different.

Muslims are now an ethnicity? Oh wow, this is rich.
"feel their religion threatened". That's France. All other religions accept it, most definitely don't get violent over it, but 'Muslims' feel "threatened" over it? As far as I know Muslims keep pouring into France.

Being gunned down, raped and robbed by 'Muslims' triggered a mass exodus, let me correct that - an active expulsion of Jews from Europe by Europeans, 'Muslims' being their preforming agents. Jews are demonized by 'native' anti-Semitic Europeans day-in-day-out, who on top of that feel the need to provide apologetics for 'Muslim' violence as if they were children.


"race" continues to serve as a category of knowledge both by "anti-racists" and "racists". The protection of "unique/'pure' culture" is used by the entire political spectrum in Europe, ultra-nationalists apply it to themselves and the European left to minorities, post-colonial studies are Eurocentric and place Europeans in the center of history as the 'bad doers' and maybe on top of all - romantic. Organic nationalism is applied, again, in a-symmetry.
Europe never was, and won't be anytime soon a place to welcome a variety of people because banning a book doesn't change an entire political culture and tradition.

Written by Vombatus on 07.01.2015 at 23:07

Last time I checked, all the muslims I know act like any other "western individual" and are very much happy with this life style, not giving a shit about sharia and other extemist crap. How can this be possible ?

Because maybe they stopped being Muslims at that moment they "stopped giving a shit about Sharia"?
I read a few books on the Spanish civil war in high school, one was about two loving brothers who had great political differences and one killed the other tragically.
Differences play a role in context, not out of context. If I disagree with someone on matters of mathematics, that won't play a role when I'm out in the pub drinking a beer with him.

Written by Candlemass on 07.01.2015 at 23:34

Because maybe they stopped being Muslims at that moment they "stopped giving a shit about Sharia"?

So to be a Muslim you have to give a shit about Sharia ? This must be a new thing.

Written by Vombatus on 07.01.2015 at 23:07

Written by Rasputin on 07.01.2015 at 22:10

Muslims in France have more freedom than even the Christians.

How so ?

Quote:
And they reason why they are not well liked is because they are not assimilating with the culture of the country they live in, they instead push their own agenda and want Sharia Law.

Last time I checked, all the muslims I know act like any other "western individual" and are very much happy with this life style, not giving a shit about sharia and other extemist crap. How can this be possible ?

Quote:
Every country must be threatening Muslims, since they seem to raise hell in Germany, Austria, Sweden, Denmark and Spain. It's very interesting that only that one religion is oppressed and everyone else can believe and practice what they want. Why is that I wonder? Is it because people finally started realizing how bad Islam is, or is it that the Muslims are full of shit, and they want rights and privileges that others can't get?

Funny that you mention Spain. Here we have the glorious catholic church high in power since the middle ages with outrageous privileges and sometimes trying to force on people their ideas (thankfully with less power each time, but resorting way to much to political maneuvering) so your argument seems flawed, to say the least...

Really? So all those protests, threats of violence, rapes and other examples like "Death to the State" or "Those who offend Islam will be killed" are completely normal part of the Muslim experience. Good to know.

As far as the France is concerned, they already have an all Muslim zones where no one else can go, that shows more power than Christianity, and also, by claiming that they are offended by Christianity in school (and France was a Christian country with those values) the Christians must apologize and remove all of their stuff, just so the Muslims could insist for their holidays and rights to be acknowledged in schools and other places, regardless of the fact that they do not give the same to anyone else in the countries from which they came.

And from what I know so far, Islam is making a push in Spain, and while I do not like any religion, I find Christianity something I can deal with, while with Islam I cannot. And if you think Islam will bring you freedom in Catholic Spain, you are sadly mistaken.

I love when people talk about countries they don't know.

Written by Candlemass on 07.01.2015 at 23:30

Muslims are now an ethnicity? Oh wow, this is rich.

That was simply in direct response to a comment above suggesting it is not so much an experience of religious but rather of ethnic ostracism that motivates Muslim alienation. (And mind you, that hypothesis does not presuppose that it is always the same ethnicity in question, even if we were to accept it.)

I don't know what the rest of your post is supposed to be about. I am not interested in making any moral statement here; whether or not the supposed Muslim experience is justified or not, it would be pretty stupid to misrepresent historical facts about French anti-religious culture. France has never been a good place to be religious, since the 16th century.

Rasputin, at least, seems to think somebody is making excuses or being apologetic of the attack referenced above. I don't see any of that here. It is simply that there is nothing to say about the incident that isn't entirely banal and trivial, so we get back to our peanut gallery analysis in an attempt to say something sensible. I don't have a feeling any of us have really succeeded, though.

Written by IronAngel on 07.01.2015 at 23:51

Written by Candlemass on 07.01.2015 at 23:30

Muslims are now an ethnicity? Oh wow, this is rich.

That was simply in direct response to a comment above suggesting it is not so much an experience of religious but rather of ethnic ostracism that motivates Muslim alienation. (And mind you, that hypothesis does not presuppose that it is always the same ethnicity in question, even if we were to accept it.)

I know that here in the States, if someone is olive-skinned, dark-haired and speaks with an accent, they are presumed to be of one of many ethnic groups that is largely Muslim (although the only one that is widely known here is Arab).

Written by Rasputin on 07.01.2015 at 23:47

Really? So all those protests, threats of violence, rapes and other examples like "Death to the State" or "Those who offend Islam will be killed" are completely normal part of the Muslim experience. Good to know.

I never said that. Please think a bit before writing nonsense.

Quote:
As far as the France is concerned, they already have an all Muslim zones where no one else can go, that shows more power than Christianity, and also, by claiming that they are offended by Christianity in school (and France was a Christian country with those values) the Christians must apologize and remove all of their stuff, just so the Muslims could insist for their holidays and rights to be acknowledged in schools and other places, regardless of the fact that they do not give the same to anyone else in the countries from which they came.

If you read the article L141-5-1 about religious symbols in school you will see that what you just wrote is bullshit.

Quote:
And if you think Islam will bring you freedom in Catholic Spain, you are sadly mistaken.

Again, I never implied this.



Anything else ?

I don't think Rasputin really knows what he's talking about and is rambling off factoids that are based on assumptions of what life is like in Europe and his personal bias. Contrary to what he believes, life for Muslims and Middle Eastern immigrants in Europe is not all candy and gum drops.

Written by Vombatus on 07.01.2015 at 23:47

So to be a Muslim you have to give a shit about Sharia ? This must be a new thing.

If a Catholic stops caring about Catholicism...he's not a practicing Catholic, he's someone from a Catholic background. I think we call that someone, "secular" i.e. divorced from religion. You know, a "western individual".

Second, multiculturalism is not cosmopolitanism. It does not aim for everyone to end up being "western individuals", what it does aim for is people keeping their 'identities', 'taking pride in their ancestry' and if people 'lose' that identity it is 'sorrowful'*. Hence the debate around integration (multiple societies, 'diversity') vs assimilation (blending, "western individuals").

Personally, I see people as able to transcend their backgrounds, which they usually do and I'm not chasing my tail around with 'diversity'. Zizek (about 8 minutes on) has some great comments on this.

*worth noting that unless you're a minority practicing this, then you're a 'racist'.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 08.01.2015 at 00:39

I wish I could upvote that. Unfortunately, I feel that most people who are extremely religious are that way because they've relinquished their responsibility to think critically.

Written by Mercyful_Kate on 08.01.2015 at 00:44
I feel that most people who are extremely religious are that way because they've relinquished their responsibility to think critically.

I don't think it's possible to allow things like propaganda and indoctrination to work unless you forfeit the ability to see logic and reason. There's a reason we call them fanatics.

And for those who argue that Christianity is somehow "better", don't be so quick to forget the horrible atrocities committed in its name throughout human history.

Written by Candlemass on 08.01.2015 at 00:26

Written by Vombatus on 07.01.2015 at 23:47

So to be a Muslim you have to give a shit about Sharia ? This must be a new thing.

If a Catholic stops caring about Catholicism...he's not a practicing Catholic, he's someone from a Catholic background. I think we call that someone, "secular" i.e. divorced from religion. You know, a "western individual".

A better analogy would be something like "If a Catholic does not subscribe to the doctrine of Immaculate Conception (defined in 1854, btw) he is not a Catholic." And that would be pretty ridiculous.

Written by IronAngel on 08.01.2015 at 00:58

A better analogy would be something like "If a Catholic does not subscribe to the doctrine of Immaculate Conception (defined in 1854, btw) he is not a Catholic." And that would be pretty ridiculous.

To be honest I was looking for one, but I'm totally ignorant when it comes to Catholicism . Thanks!

Written by Bad English on 08.01.2015 at 00:50
education is weapon of mass destruction

What.

Written by Candlemass on 08.01.2015 at 00:26

If a Catholic stops caring about Catholicism...he's not a practicing Catholic, he's someone from a Catholic background. I think we call that someone, "secular" i.e. divorced from religion. You know, a "western individual".

Second, multiculturalism is not cosmopolitanism. It does not aim for everyone to end up being "western individuals", what it does aim for is people keeping their 'identities', 'taking pride in their ancestry' and if people 'lose' that identity it is 'sorrowful'*. Hence the debate around integration (multiple societies, 'diversity') vs assimilation (blending, "western individuals").

Personally, I see people as able to transcend their backgrounds, which they usually do and I'm not chasing my tail around with 'diversity'. Zizek has some great comments on this.

*worth noting that unless you're a minority practicing this, then you're a 'racist'.

My initial reference was considering the term Sharia as the only source of law in a society, as a very simplistic way of separating moderate from fundamentalism (which was the point being discussed). Maybe saying they are Muslim abiding to the Rechtsstaat is more appropiate...

Written by Vombatus on 08.01.2015 at 01:30

My initial reference was considering the term Sharia as the only source of law in a society, as a very simplistic way of separating moderate from fundamentalism (which was the point being discussed). Maybe saying they are Muslim abiding to the Rechtsstaat is more appropiate...

I like that term. I was thinking about translating to it the other day. Yes, if you don't abide the rechtsstaat, you'll find yourself in jail or fined. Moderate would be ideally democratic, not theocratic.

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering what makes people confident that living in fundamentally fractured societies would produce a 'colorful' Michael Jackson music video rather than what historically tends to happen, a civil war?
To strengthen my previous point about conflict and context: "the fact that both victims and executioners have had a peaceful performance in their past interaction (i.e. neighbors)."

Written by Ilham on 07.01.2015 at 23:48

I love when people talk about countries they don't know.

I knew he was a full-time moron, but well...

Nice Salman Rushdie quote, btw, Troy! Thanks.

Written by deadone on 08.01.2015 at 02:50



Western christianity has been sanitised and reinvented as some sort of peaceful, tolerant force.

Mainstream Christianity can still be extremely luddite - homosexuality and gender equality being some obvious ones. Mainstream Catholic church also supported at worst and turned a blind eye at best to some nasty atrocities in Latin America in the 1980s too - after all it didn't have to pretend it was tolerant in that part of the world. And you still get all those intolerant, zealot subsects such as those in the US Bible Belt.


I think the key difference is that the Bible never actively promotes violence or intolerance, whereas the Korans and various Haddiths do (beat your woman, you can kill in defence of Allah etc). And thanks to Arab petro-dollars and success of Arab jihaddism in combating Israel, USA and USSR, conservative Islam is on an upswing.

Basically for young disgruntled Muslims, fundamentalist Islam has the same appeal as nationalism, Fascism or Communism in Europe had in the 20th century.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Written by deadone on 08.01.2015 at 02:50
Western christianity has been sanitised and reinvented as some sort of peaceful, tolerant force.

Mainstream Christianity can still be extremely luddite - homosexuality and gender equality being some obvious ones. Mainstream Catholic church also supported at worst and turned a blind eye at best to some nasty atrocities in Latin America in the 1980s too - after all it didn't have to pretend it was tolerant in that part of the world. And you still get all those intolerant, zealot subsects such as those in the US Bible Belt.


I think the key difference is that the Bible never actively promotes violence or intolerance, whereas the Korans and various Haddiths do (beat your woman, you can kill in defence of Allah etc). And thanks to Arab petro-dollars and success of Arab jihaddism in combating Israel, USA and USSR, conservative Islam is on an upswing.

Basically for young disgruntled Muslims, fundamentalist Islam has the same appeal as nationalism, Fascism or Communism in Europe had in the 20th century.

I don't disagree with anything you said here (for once), my only point was that Islam is essentially what Christianity was before it was neutered.

Written by Mercyful_Kate on 08.01.2015 at 00:22

I don't think Rasputin really knows what he's talking about and is rambling off factoids that are based on assumptions of what life is like in Europe and his personal bias. Contrary to what he believes, life for Muslims and Middle Eastern immigrants in Europe is not all candy and gum drops.

Please revert to 3-4 pages ago where I posted articles of issues with Muslims in several EU countries.
And guess what, life for any non Muslim is not all candy and gum drops in the Middle East or any place where the Muslims constitute a majority.

I predict more acts of terrorism in the name of Allah, and I'll be damned if those "radicals" have it wrong again, while other Muslims are peaceful.

I keep asking for someone to explain to me why is it that after the Muslims reached 40% in France, we have more violence and more "no entry" zones. Just another coincidence.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 08.01.2015 at 04:02

Written by deadone on 08.01.2015 at 02:50
Western christianity has been sanitised and reinvented as some sort of peaceful, tolerant force.

Mainstream Christianity can still be extremely luddite - homosexuality and gender equality being some obvious ones. Mainstream Catholic church also supported at worst and turned a blind eye at best to some nasty atrocities in Latin America in the 1980s too - after all it didn't have to pretend it was tolerant in that part of the world. And you still get all those intolerant, zealot subsects such as those in the US Bible Belt.


I think the key difference is that the Bible never actively promotes violence or intolerance, whereas the Korans and various Haddiths do (beat your woman, you can kill in defence of Allah etc). And thanks to Arab petro-dollars and success of Arab jihaddism in combating Israel, USA and USSR, conservative Islam is on an upswing.

Basically for young disgruntled Muslims, fundamentalist Islam has the same appeal as nationalism, Fascism or Communism in Europe had in the 20th century.

I don't disagree with anything you said here (for once), my only point was that Islam is essentially what Christianity was before it was neutered.

I would say that it is much much worse if we look in retrospect.

And Dead One, I think the Old Testament had few examples of that, but that is why the New Testament should be followed. Like I said, I rather deal with Christianity than these lunatics.

The internet is being filled with I-hate-Islam hate cartoons in 'solidarity' (and conspiracy cui bono theories) . Hopefully people would seize the opportunity to look at things a little more deeply. Maybe read into the different versions of Islam or a little bit more into free speech instead of the usual hate-mongering. Not all Muslim committed this, not all Muslims support this, many Muslims condemn this and opportunistically making a caricature out of all of them is simply false. Promote secularism, deal with religious extremism, promote whatever political policy you wish to ir raise whatever social issues - but not on the expense of what the case actually is.

Written by deadone on 08.01.2015 at 04:22

It's the equivalent of Black Metal moving back to the early 1990s complete with church burnings and murder.

:lol:.

At first I wrote something here but then deleted it totally, I feel too disgusted and bad to say something which can make any sense. Anyhow sorry for spamming.

Written by Ilham on 07.01.2015 at 23:48
I love when people talk about countries they don't know.

Same... I just laughed at loud when he included Sweden in the list of countries Islam is raising hell in.
It's a fact that we have waaaaaaay more problems with neonazis and the racist political party taking over than with muslims.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 08.01.2015 at 11:06
It's a fact that we have waaaaaaay more problems with neonazis and the racist political party taking over than with muslims.

To an extent I think both have their own troubles. Muslims must also start to do some amendment for their own sake at least. ( they can stand against fundamentalist)

Neo-nazis? In Sweden? That sounds... uncharacteristic. I've always seen Sweden as the Canada of Europe.

Written by Slayer666 on 08.01.2015 at 11:11

Neo-nazis? In Sweden? That sounds... uncharacteristic. I've always seen Sweden as the Canada of Europe.

You'd be surprised how the wave of morons has come to Sweden. You'd think people's memories will be longer than just a few decades but no. The current "Swedish democratic party" (LOL at that name) has around 15% of the votes. Many members of the party have commented in the media some of their great ideas like:
- Forbid all begging of money. Lock people who are seen asking for money on the streets.
- Register everyone who is immigrant or or descendant of immigrants (So... We get patches for our shoulders too?... Assholes)
- The government can't support any cultural activity (we are talking more than just a random event... from museum exhibitions and all) that is not of swedish culture.

And a huge etc of "great" ideas that takes us back to WWII.

Written by angel. on 08.01.2015 at 11:09
To an extent I think both have their own troubles. Muslims must also start to do some amendment for their own sake at least. ( they can stand against fundamentalist)

I definitely agree on that. I think if muslims disapprove of this, they should be far more outspoken than they are right now (at least in Sweden). Most of them stay quiet or comment of their disapproval if they are asked... But rarely talk about it at their own account. Sure, the people at mosques comment on it a lot and explain how horrible these sort of actions are. but not the regular muslim walking on the streets.