Written by IncoherentScream on 22.01.2012 at 11:57

Ok, so this is where the argument of what is and what isn't Black Metal kind of confuses me a bit. For instance, some "purists" (read: assholes) tend to believe that if the lyrics aren't Satanic, then it's not Black Metal. So that would mean then that Wolves in the Throne Room isn't really Black Metal? Then we get weird sub genre labels like Frost Metal or Troll Metal or some shit like that.

First of all I'll give you a thumb rule:
Everyone that even starts to mention the lyrics in order to describe what Black metal (and most other genres btw) in order to explain the music.... Don't deserve your attention at all.

Now, I'm actually kind of tired, been cleaning the house during the whole morning, I'll be back with you at some moment although I'm not sure I'm that good in explaining as I don't know a lot of the technical definitions but I'm pretty sure many people here are able to explain the genre without mentioning something as stupid as lyrics or even worse, imagery.

Written by IncoherentScream on 22.01.2012 at 11:57

Ok, so this is where the argument of what is and what isn't Black Metal kind of confuses me a bit. For instance, some "purists" (read: assholes) tend to believe that if the lyrics aren't Satanic, then it's not Black Metal. So that would mean then that Wolves in the Throne Room isn't really Black Metal? Then we get weird sub genre labels like Frost Metal or Troll Metal or some shit like that.

So can someone here, and I'm not sure this is entirely possible, truly define what it is that makes a band Black Metal??? I've heard so many differing opinions that I stopped looking for an answer, but you guys seem intelligent enough to give some sort of response that will make more sense than the retarded shit I've read elsewhere.

I guess this sums it up pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal

Personally I don't believe that the lyrical subject matters much though as long as it reflects the mood of the music.

"Black metal guitarists usually favour high-pitched guitar tones and a great deal of distortion.[6] The guitar is usually played with much use of fast tremolo picking[6][7][8] and dissonance. Guitarists often use specific scales, intervals and chord progressions designed to yield what they consider the most fear-inducing and foreboding sounds. The tritone or flat-fifth is often used for example. Guitar solos and low guitar tunings are rare in black metal.[8]

The bass guitar is seldom used to play stand-alone melodies. It is not uncommon for the bass guitar to be minimal or difficult to hear,[8] or to homophonically follow the bass lines of the guitar. Typically, drumming is fast-paced and uses double-bass and/or blast beats.

Black metal songs often stray from conventional song structure and often lack clear verse-chorus sections. Instead, many black metal songs contain lengthy and repetitive instrumental sections." - from Wikipedia

This is something I'd looked at before and I lean heavily towards this definition of Black Metal. However I was just wondering if anyone here saw it differently. Judging by the response I've gotten so far the answer is no.

So in response to the original question, which was what is the purpose in creating Black Metal now, well, here is how I feel on the subject. Black Metal, as with all genres of music, will continue to grow beyond it's original form. Just as rock, punk, heavy metal in general, and even death metal have in the past and present. The purpose may be hard for you to see now, what with so many copycats, but I will take new Black Metal being released consistently just for the moments when I find a Watain, Wolves in the Throne Room, or stumble upon something I had never heard as I did the other day with Paragon Impure. (Whose record "To Gaius" is on it's way in the mail....)

I would rather there be five thousand Mayhem copycats and only one Watain because, honestly, I'm not sure what I would be listening to if they WEREN'T around. Whatever keeps the genre alive and burning is good in my book.

Read this not too long ago, just found it again. To sort of extend my response I'm going to quote Erik Danielsson here;

-Prior to its release, you referred to the album as "the return of black metal." Did you fear any sort of backlash from making such a bold statement?

-"Well, of course. It was meant as a provocation. But not a provocation just for the sake of being provocative, but for people to try to think and to wake up. I think black metal has been treated a bit poorly in the last years, and it doesn't all have to do with the bands or the labels or releasing albums, but actually has a lot to do with those who are involved in the genre in general-that includes the fans as well.

And of course, a lot of people have said "that's an arrogant thing to say" and "What about this band?" and "What about that band?" But frankly speaking, if one would compare black metal these days to what it once was, we had to take it to a point where there was a matter of either a rebirth or a funeral, and in this case, we preferred a rebirth.

What we mean is that Watain has the ambition and the power to take black metal to where it should have been by now. People have been lazy and unambitious; black metal is music for ambitious, large thinking people. I hate to see it being left to just copycats and visionless so-called artists. This genre demands cocky motherfuckers like us that are willing to do something with it."

Yeah so uh...this ^

Written by IncoherentScream on 23.01.2012 at 13:23

Read this not too long ago, just found it again. To sort of extend my response I'm going to quote Erik Danielsson here;

-Prior to its release, you referred to the album as "the return of black metal." Did you fear any sort of backlash from making such a bold statement?

-"Well, of course. It was meant as a provocation. But not a provocation just for the sake of being provocative, but for people to try to think and to wake up. I think black metal has been treated a bit poorly in the last years, and it doesn't all have to do with the bands or the labels or releasing albums, but actually has a lot to do with those who are involved in the genre in general-that includes the fans as well.

And of course, a lot of people have said "that's an arrogant thing to say" and "What about this band?" and "What about that band?" But frankly speaking, if one would compare black metal these days to what it once was, we had to take it to a point where there was a matter of either a rebirth or a funeral, and in this case, we preferred a rebirth.

What we mean is that Watain has the ambition and the power to take black metal to where it should have been by now. People have been lazy and unambitious; black metal is music for ambitious, large thinking people. I hate to see it being left to just copycats and visionless so-called artists. This genre demands cocky motherfuckers like us that are willing to do something with it."

Yeah so uh...this ^

Honestly, that just sounds like a mixture of arrogance and ignorance to me. The arrogance to assume that your own band is some kind of second coming and the ignorance to the hundreds of boundary-breaking, genre-mashing inventive black metal bands around at the moment. Bands that frankly are doing a lot more for the current scene than bands like Watain who still hide behind outdated imagery and lyrics.

I guess when you get on the front cover of Terrorizer and such you start to believe the hype about yourself.

Sorry to disagree with you so blatantly, but that's just how I feel about this kind of attitude. Most of the truly innovative bands of our time are usually pretty modest about their work. Watain are all bark and no bite. Not bad music at all but not fit to lead to some kind of black metal uprising by a long shot.

^
THIS... this whole thing. I like Watain a lot too but what the guy said shows how awfully ignorant he is, I don't care about the arrogant tag tbh... Not a biggie but saying that the genre has been dead shows how much this dude doesn't know.

So glad that brilliant minds like Mories aren't going around showing off... but let the music speak for themselves as it should be.

You both have a point and I guess what I was getting at was that for me I like my rock stars with a bit of that arrogance. He even admitted it was arrogant himself but I think his point is still valid. Yes there are, as you pointed out, hundreds of genre-bending Black Metal acts out there right now. But I don't think he was referring to them.

It's like this; there's Thrash Metal then there is every splinter genre that it has created. So if I were to create a band that sounded just like Metallica, then I would be in a Thrash Band AND a lame ass copycat. So in that respect I think Danielsson was referring to the very same thing the OP was in this thread when it comes to Black Metal. He wasn't talking about inventiveness in the sense that, for the sake of argument, a band like Agalloch or Wolves in the Throne Room are lacking in that respect. I believe he was referring to the Black Metal bands that were sporting the image of the early second wave and doing it poorly. I think to interpret that comment you also have to understand that in his viewpoint bands that are genre-bending are probably no longer a part of the genre. I think what he was trying to say was that it was either a) say screw it and just start calling it something else or b) try and be as true to the genre's roots as possible and still manage to re-energize it. Whatever it is you might say about Watain, at the end of the day you can't argue that they haven't done just that.

He also isn't thrilled with bands that use Satanism as a form of imagery and theatrics. Whether or not you agree with his spiritual view points he takes them seriously.

Now I don't necessarily see it that way, and I don't completely agree with Danielsson's statement and I definitely don't agree with his spiritual lifestyle or the way he views Black Metal entire. But for him that is his POV and he can't change the way he will perceive things. Not to mention he has built quite a reputation as a provocateur and this statement is pretty par for the course when it comes to his personality. Your reaction to it is probably exactly what he wanted and expected. It almost reminds me of something Euronymous might have said. Maybe he's just as crazy as he was?

Well I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that bands that incorporate foreign elements into their sound are no longer black metal, and I think the message that there are a lot of copycats around is a rather moot one as everyone and their uncle knows that there is a stale strain of black metal which is to be ignored, and have known for a while. If he wants to declare himself King of moot black metal then that's his claim but I'm unimpressed with all talk and no balls. I guess I like my big talkers to have some kind of substance or genius to back them up but reading that statement all I see is the words of a prima donna who seems to feign a personal insight into an irrelevant area of inquiry. Less talk, more do.

By disregarding a whole area of music that is regarded as black metal by the majority - "black metal has been treated a bit poorly in the last years" (a statement patently untrue no matter how you may try to justify it) - he's essentially putting himself in the same position as Varg when he declares that Burzum is one of the few black metal bands that are truly black metal (which he basically did by declaring Watain "return of black metal"). You can't call people "lazy" and "unambitious" then declare all black metal that attempts to experiment as something other than black metal. I don't buy into people with such a limited scope of vision who think they carry a whole genre on their back. Arrogance is only fun and acceptable when it's justified.

Also, I've seen Watain live and their entire show is choc full of cheesy satanic nonsense so if he did indeed say that he's nothing but a hypocrite to boot. It doesn't really matter how seriously he takes those elements, he can't have it his way then declare others to be unworthy. It sounds to me like he just wants to hold the candle of old school black metal by himself and any other contender falling under that umbrella somehow different from Watain are not true..

Quite simply I see nothing of value in his words. They're neither insightful nor rebellious. It just serves to highlight a rather limited personality that values self-promotion and one dimenstional vanity and pomp. Certainly not "crazy" in any light. Perhaps this is indeed how he wants people like me to react, but that strikes me as someone who doesn't have the cojones to genuinely shock people and/or make them think but wants the reputation of someone who does.

Valid...all valid. And like I said I wasn't completely siding with his argument entire, rather his straight fuck it all Metal attitude. If you don't feel Watain have the balls to their music to back up their claim then I don't know what else to say on the matter. To me they definitely bring the black thunder and rock harder than King Diamond on a coke bender. But then that's just me.

But as for his stage show; he practices a sort of "Satanism" that is more of a pagan religion than anything. Using animal carcasses and blood is actually a part of what that religious group does. Sort of like how Catholic masses use incense. Of course that's a comparison that is night and day, but then again I did just compare two opposing ideologies so it seems fitting. He has stated before that it is not used to shock people or for gross out effect. He actually believes it to be a genuine way for him, his band, and his fans to "commune", if you will, and deepen the experience of the music.

I know what your thinking...*cough*bullshit*cough*. I may be inclined to agree with you. But he does seem quite disgusted/perturbed in interviews where, mostly American rock journalists miss the point of this. I saw one where a guy even gave him a wrapped up portion of "piggy parts" thinking Erik would be impressed by this. He wasn't. It's nothing profane to him but deeply profound and spiritual. So that's where he gets off dogging others who do it simply as a shock and awe campaign.

And perhaps crazy wasn't the right word to use. It's widely known now that Euronymous, or Oystein Aarseth, what ever you prefer, was living out a fantasy role as Black Metal leader. He wasn't that person at all before that point in his life, and probably still wasn't that person then. But he felt compelled to live that lifestyle for some reason or another, and it worked out for all of us that enjoy Black Metal that he did. I was simply painting the similarity in mindset between the two; their love of self-promotion and sense of superiority just one of many examples.

Hope your not taking offense to this, as it seems to have riled you up something awful.

Nope, I'm certainly not offended or riled up. Just giving my two cents from what I've read and heard about him, in conjunction with my thoughts on the band ;]

Written by Guest on 23.01.2012 at 20:37
as someone who doesn't have the cojones to genuinely shock people and/or make them think but wants the reputation of someone who does.

Everytime some non-spanish person says cojones... I'm a happy guy.
True story.

Also: Every artist can pretend to be crazy... there are those who actually convice you, Erik never did it for me.
I highly enjoy the music though but still...
I think the people that give me the chills are those who actually don't speak a lot if not at all... Like Blut Aus Nord, Deathspell Omega or Mories.
Those are the artists I highly respect.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 25.01.2012 at 13:25


I think the people that give me the chills are those who actually don't speak a lot if not at all... Like Blut Aus Nord, Deathspell Omega or Mories.
Those are the artists I highly respect.

Abso-frigging-lutely. One's imagination is a far more potent weapon in creating mysterious and threatening personalities than some guy proclaiming his genius.

Written by Guest on 25.01.2012 at 13:36

Written by X-Ray Rod on 25.01.2012 at 13:25


I think the people that give me the chills are those who actually don't speak a lot if not at all... Like Blut Aus Nord, Deathspell Omega or Mories.
Those are the artists I highly respect.

Abso-frigging-lutely. One's imagination is a far more potent weapon in creating mysterious and threatening personalities than some guy proclaiming his genius.

Very true. It is much creepier when a band/artist just doesn't go out there and lay everything out on the table. The essence of mystery can indeed be a much stronger form of self-promotion then being loud and boisterous.

But I don't know I think it's just the fact that while I have deep admiration for the artists that do just that, I can't help but get a huge smile on my face when I hear someone go full on rock star in every interview they do. I guess it's a matter of opinion but to me being that egotistical prick is an iconic piece of being a big time rock personality, which Erik has become.

I think he would be fooling himself if he thought that his band could continue on this track and still maintain the sort of dark, eeeeevil personality they had going for them early on. Eventually he will need to develop a sense of humor about this shit. But I also see a slight wink of irony in those taped interviews when he says shit like this that can kind of take the sting off. Or maybe he and Lars Ulrich should just go blow each other?

Written by IncoherentScream on 25.01.2012 at 14:58
But I don't know I think it's just the fact that while I have deep admiration for the artists that do just that, I can't help but get a huge smile on my face when I hear someone go full on rock star in every interview they do. I guess it's a matter of opinion but to me being that egotistical prick is an iconic piece of being a big time rock personality, which Erik has become.

That's exactly why I don't take his super evil talk seriously... Because just like you said... He got a rock star attitude that spoils every "evil" sppech he wants to give. If you go full rock star on people... you better realise that you won't get your "evilness" noticed.

Way too many people go full on rock star... that's why I don't care for them.

I think there is a greater sense of "danger" which emanates for being clandestine and hidden as opposed to being a corpse-painted attention whore. and "danger" is a key component of this nihilistic form of music.

i like/love Waitain's music, but have mocked his absurd statements (return of black metal? his statements are the return of batshit crazy trey's old Morbid Angel liner proclamations) and their lack of creativity when it comes to lyrics/titles. the over the top antics are just too much. he might truly believe it, or he might be a great showman who knows what will appeal to a certain audience.

Btw Watain is just like Dissection, actually more melodic death metal than truly black metal.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 02:09

Btw Watain is just like Dissection, actually more melodic death metal than truly black metal.

Whoa hang on, you changed your tune about that. I recall the last time this was discussed you were more in favour of Dissection being more black

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 02:09

Btw Watain is just like Dissection, actually more melodic death metal than truly black metal.

Wait..what? Ok yeah the Dissection/Watain comparisons are always prevalent and justified, but melodic death metal? From my perspective Black Metal has always been about the mixing of extreme brutality with dark and foreboding melodies. Isn't that what Watain does? Here we go again defining the genre....TO WIKIPEDIA!!!

Written by IncoherentScream on 26.01.2012 at 04:53


Wait..what? Ok yeah the Dissection/Watain comparisons are always prevalent and justified, but melodic death metal? From my perspective Black Metal has always been about the mixing of extreme brutality with dark and foreboding melodies. Isn't that what Watain does? Here we go again defining the genre....TO WIKIPEDIA!!!

Early Dissection definitely has a prominent melodeath strain to it. Watain on the other hand does not whatsoever.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 02:09

Btw Watain is just like Dissection, actually more melodic death metal than truly black metal.

Okay I can totally see the melodic death metal in Dissection but even though Watain is pretty much a spin off of the former band they do have far more Black metal sound, I can't see one or two melodic riffs but that still doesn't make it death. Just look at Casus Luciferi.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 16:44

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 02:09

Btw Watain is just like Dissection, actually more melodic death metal than truly black metal.

Okay I can totally see the melodic death metal in Dissection but even though Watain is pretty much a spin off of the former band they do have far more Black metal sound, I can't see one or two melodic riffs but that still doesn't make it death. Just look at Casus Luciferi.

well, Watain moved towards mor melodic death in their sound/

Written by Guest on 26.01.2012 at 16:43

Written by IncoherentScream on 26.01.2012 at 04:53


Wait..what? Ok yeah the Dissection/Watain comparisons are always prevalent and justified, but melodic death metal? From my perspective Black Metal has always been about the mixing of extreme brutality with dark and foreboding melodies. Isn't that what Watain does? Here we go again defining the genre....TO WIKIPEDIA!!!

Early Dissection definitely has a prominent melodeath strain to it. Watain on the other hand does not whatsoever.

Modern Watain, does

Written by Guest on 26.01.2012 at 02:49

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 02:09

Btw Watain is just like Dissection, actually more melodic death metal than truly black metal.

Whoa hang on, you changed your tune about that. I recall the last time this was discussed you were more in favour of Dissection being more black

yeah changed my mind somewhat. Now I'd say Dissection if 40% black and 60% meldic death

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 16:47
Modern Watain, does

As long as I don't see a fucking Reinkaos... It's all right with the world.

Written by Guest on 26.01.2012 at 16:43

Written by IncoherentScream on 26.01.2012 at 04:53


Wait..what? Ok yeah the Dissection/Watain comparisons are always prevalent and justified, but melodic death metal? From my perspective Black Metal has always been about the mixing of extreme brutality with dark and foreboding melodies. Isn't that what Watain does? Here we go again defining the genre....TO WIKIPEDIA!!!

Early Dissection definitely has a prominent melodeath strain to it. Watain on the other hand does not whatsoever.

Ok good thing someone else is thinking the same as I am here. I thought maybe I was going crazy for a second...

But yeah Dissection definitely does have a folk/melodeath almost Gothenburg sound to it at moments. BUT...those elements are pretty much completely lacking in Watain. I caught a few lead guitar melodies in "Lawless Darkness" that almost, just almost sounded like Mikael Akerfeldt snuck into the recording studio. That's it though and those moments were brief...like seconds brief....

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 16:49

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 16:47
Modern Watain, does

As long as I don't see a fucking Reinkaos... It's all right with the world.

We can never be too sure, seeing they have the same sort of lyrics and beliefs as Dissecion and The Devil's Blood.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 16:52
We can never be too sure, seeing they have the same sort of lyrics and beliefs as Dissecion and The Devil's Blood.

I have a hard time seeing The Devil's Blood as being serious about the lyrics and beliefs as the other two bands... dunno why.
Even so.... Writing shitty melo death shouldn't be in their friggin satanic book ffs.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 26.01.2012 at 16:53

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 16:52
We can never be too sure, seeing they have the same sort of lyrics and beliefs as Dissecion and The Devil's Blood.

I have a hard time seeing The Devil's Blood as being serious about the lyrics and beliefs as the other two bands... dunno why.
Even so.... Writing shitty melo death shouldn't be in their friggin satanic book ffs.

The Devil's Blood (that is of cpourse Selim and his sister Farida) are extremely serious about their lyrical content and all things surrounding their music.

And btw why do you have a hard time seeing them being serious about the lyrcis and beliefs? Just because they sound retro 70s?

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 16:47

Written by Guest on 26.01.2012 at 16:43

Written by IncoherentScream on 26.01.2012 at 04:53


Wait..what? Ok yeah the Dissection/Watain comparisons are always prevalent and justified, but melodic death metal? From my perspective Black Metal has always been about the mixing of extreme brutality with dark and foreboding melodies. Isn't that what Watain does? Here we go again defining the genre....TO WIKIPEDIA!!!

Early Dissection definitely has a prominent melodeath strain to it. Watain on the other hand does not whatsoever.

Modern Watain, does

I just did a quick check, as I have my iPhone on me and, of course, I have both Watain's "Lawless Darkness" LP (which I suppose is their most modern album), and Dissection's "The Somberlain."

Are we even listening to the same bands? I can see your point on Dissection, and will even caution to raise your ratio to 50% black and 50% melodic death, with certain tracks skewing it even farther in favor towards the melodeath side of things.

But as I write this I am listening to "Reaping Death"....and...yeah...this shit is black dude. Maybe not the soul crushing pitch black of some other BM bands out there...but this is definitely full on Black with perhaps a smattering or two of Death thrown in there at times.

Maybe it has to do with both bands being Swedish? The second wave hit big in Norway not Sweden, so perhaps being so geographically close to so many great Death Metal acts influenced them a bit when they write songs. Maybe even more so then BM bands from other countries who maybe don't have so much Death surrounding them? (Yes I realize the way that reads....)

But when you say melodeath I think instantly of early In Flames or Dark Tranquility. Which at times early Dissection reminds me of. But I've never gotten that feeling while listening to Watain.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.01.2012 at 16:59
The Devil's Blood (that is of cpourse Selim and his sister Farida) are extremely serious about their lyrical content and all things surrounding their music.

Pure evil through catchy psichedelia, nice.
Maybe it's the random blood on random titties that makes me forget we are talking about satanic lyrics and stuff.