Written by -tom- on 27.01.2009 at 23:10
No one can explain why christian black metal is so wrong without using the following quotes: "They shouldn't be listening to it anyway". "Why would they want to listen to music that opposes everything they stand for?". This is just complete crap.

This is a common misconception, I think. At least, it fails to take into account "Christian black metal" bands who refuse to label themselves as black metal. People always talk about the black metallers who don't want Christians in the scene without taking the Christian's perspective into account. There is conflict on some level between black metal and Christianity, this is why you have Christians who play the musical style of black metal but prefer "unblack metal" or some other term, have their own zines, concerts, scene, etc.

Written by -tom- on 27.01.2009 at 23:10
Art has no limits. An artist should make something that is completely personal to them. If they want to play black metal but sing about their own beliefs then that's not contrary to the concept of art. If it's self-contradictory because black metal is typically anti-christian then you're arguing with scene rules rather than the artistic value of a given piece of music.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with placing limits on art. It has to do with analyzing and categorizing that art in an accurate manner. I think that by calling it "Christian black metal" you're doing a disservice both to concept of black metal and the Christian art.

I don't think it's impossible to make significant Christian art while using black metal sounds. Although I do think there is some odd psychological element, especially with bands who mimic the sounds and appearance of these famous Norwegian anti-Christians without even giving thought to the obvious contradiction (or at least irony).

I think the crux of the issue is the dual nature of the term "Black Metal" - as it applies to a system of values/beliefs as well as a style of music. in most metal cases, this isn't particularly the issue... Death, Doom, etc do not encapsulate an ideology - they just follow basic stylistic points and sing about gore, whores, doom, and gloom ... (Candlemass were once thought a Christian band by some after the release of "Nightfall" due to the lyrics of "Samaritan")

on one hand, Mercyful Fate is oft called a black metal band - certainly fitting the philosophical profile, while their music is more traditional heavy metal.

on the other hand, Enslaved is also often referred to as black metal, and while they fit the profile musically (at least based upon their first couple releases), ideologically they don't.

Immortal is yet another popular band that clearly falls sonically in the BM camp, but thematically they are closer to Manowar or some darker embodiment of Rhapsody of Fire (Rhapsody of Ice?)

i guess the key to the religious black metal question is first whether or not you can separate the ideology from the sound. if so, why wouldn't a band that follows similar musical stylings, regardless of ideology, be classified as black metal. if not, if ideology is inexorably tied to the musical approach, or overrides the musical approach for classification terms, than a band could not be "religious" (in the more socially positive sense... as satanists who actually do worship some being called the devil could be called religious) and considered black metal.

if that is the case, where ideology is central, what defines the parameters?

should bands that sound similar but are not openly evil/satanic/misanthropic/anti-religious be reclassified?

finally in regards to a special classification for christian black metal, i'd have to lean towards Unblack. White Metal actually sounds like it could be considered some form of an offshoot of NSBM... you know, where the band is clearly NS but avoids the whole "black" ideology? Although the confusion could make for a lot of fun... much like the African American guy who posted a pretty amusing rant about Mayhem when they popped up on his amazon query while looking for more bands like Living Colour - you know, "Black" metal.

Written by Guest on 27.01.2009 at 23:39

Written by Berfones on 27.01.2009 at 22:47

the pagan devinity is metaphoric and not literal as most people take it in monotheism

In order to avoid any misunderstanding, could you explain what exactly do you mean by metaphoric and literal divinity?

Do you mean that pagans (by pagan I do not mean modern pagans) regarded the gods as metaphors, and did not believe in their actual existence?

I don't know about modern pagans, I know that the vikings for example, even though it may seen so, did not literaly believe in gods ruling the world, it was a folklore and it is nice, good stories and poems, but they took it as a metaphore, if they say that Odin told them not to do so and so it mean they shouldn't do it, not that Odin actully talked to them

Written by Berfones on 28.01.2009 at 08:59

Written by Guest on 27.01.2009 at 23:39

Written by Berfones on 27.01.2009 at 22:47

the pagan devinity is metaphoric and not literal as most people take it in monotheism

In order to avoid any misunderstanding, could you explain what exactly do you mean by metaphoric and literal divinity?

Do you mean that pagans (by pagan I do not mean modern pagans) regarded the gods as metaphors, and did not believe in their actual existence?

I don't know about modern pagans, I know that the vikings for example, even though it may seen so, did not literaly believe in gods ruling the world, it was a folklore and it is nice, good stories and poems, but they took it as a metaphore, if they say that Odin told them not to do so and so it mean they shouldn't do it, not that Odin actully talked to them

Could you give here your sources. I don't know much about Nordic paganism, but it really sounds like an attempt to rationalize primitive beliefs.
It's quite off-topic, though.

Written by John Barleycorn on 28.01.2009 at 10:04

Written by Berfones on 28.01.2009 at 08:59

Written by Guest on 27.01.2009 at 23:39

Written by Berfones on 27.01.2009 at 22:47

the pagan devinity is metaphoric and not literal as most people take it in monotheism

In order to avoid any misunderstanding, could you explain what exactly do you mean by metaphoric and literal divinity?

Do you mean that pagans (by pagan I do not mean modern pagans) regarded the gods as metaphors, and did not believe in their actual existence?

I don't know about modern pagans, I know that the vikings for example, even though it may seen so, did not literaly believe in gods ruling the world, it was a folklore and it is nice, good stories and poems, but they took it as a metaphore, if they say that Odin told them not to do so and so it mean they shouldn't do it, not that Odin actully talked to them

Could you give here your sources. I don't know much about Nordic paganism, but it really sounds like an attempt to rationalize primitive beliefs.
It's quite off-topic, though.

off-topic, I agree, but I only answered a question
the source I think is wikipedia though I am not sure, I read it quite a while ago...

Oh man, here it goes again. I'll let you dudes stick to the cat fights.

I just have one thing to add: ENLIGHTENED?! Who is she talking about? Dani Filth is one enlightened motherfucker (if I'm permitted to write that ).

Written by TheBigRossowski on 28.01.2009 at 14:21

Oh man, here it goes again. I'll let you dudes stick to the cat fights.

I just have one thing to add: ENLIGHTENED?! Who is she talking about? Dani Filth is one enlightened motherfucker (if I'm permitted to write that ).

who wrote "Enlightened"? I want her head on a tray XD

I don't think paganism (metaphorical or otherwise) is something really out of line with black metal ideology. Praising pagan culture is in itself somewhat anti-Christian, or perhaps at least pre/post Christian.

Written by Berfones on 28.01.2009 at 08:59
I don't know about modern pagans, I know that the vikings for example, even though it may seen so, did not literaly believe in gods ruling the world, it was a folklore and it is nice, good stories and poems, but they took it as a metaphore, if they say that Odin told them not to do so and so it mean they shouldn't do it, not that Odin actully talked to them

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Are you saying they were rational atheists who sacrificed humans to metaphorical gods? Here, if you value wikipedia as a source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_paganism#Worship

You might more accurately talk about paganism in metal as a metaphor, I think you'll find many metal bands who create pagan or satanic art without religious belief being involved. But you'll also find theistic satansits and pagans who are part of the scene.

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.01.2009 at 02:03

Written by -tom- on 27.01.2009 at 23:10
No one can explain why christian black metal is so wrong without using the following quotes: "They shouldn't be listening to it anyway". "Why would they want to listen to music that opposes everything they stand for?". This is just complete crap.

This is a common misconception, I think. At least, it fails to take into account "Christian black metal" bands who refuse to label themselves as black metal. People always talk about the black metallers who don't want Christians in the scene without taking the Christian's perspective into account. There is conflict on some level between black metal and Christianity, this is why you have Christians who play the musical style of black metal but prefer "unblack metal" or some other term, have their own zines, concerts, scene, etc.

Written by -tom- on 27.01.2009 at 23:10
Art has no limits. An artist should make something that is completely personal to them. If they want to play black metal but sing about their own beliefs then that's not contrary to the concept of art. If it's self-contradictory because black metal is typically anti-christian then you're arguing with scene rules rather than the artistic value of a given piece of music.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with placing limits on art. It has to do with analyzing and categorizing that art in an accurate manner. I think that by calling it "Christian black metal" you're doing a disservice both to concept of black metal and the Christian art.

I don't think it's impossible to make significant Christian art while using black metal sounds. Although I do think there is some odd psychological element, especially with bands who mimic the sounds and appearance of these famous Norwegian anti-Christians without even giving thought to the obvious contradiction (or at least irony).

I'm not really arguing with the idea of using the term "Christian black metal". Most people opposed to this idea don't really care if it's called white metal, unblack, "black" in quotation marks or whatever. I don't think this matters and it just seems pedantic to me.

My point is that music that sounds like black metal and is made by christians or has lyrics about religion isn't contradictory. You could argue it's ironic but not that it doesn't have any value because of this. Calling it "christian UNblack metal" or christian black metal" isn't important.

Why is everybody talking about christian black metal? the term religious black metal does exist, and it is used to tag the more religious orthodox black metal bands, ie: DSO, Watain, Antaeus, Funeral Mist etc. bands that use theistic or anti-cosmic/orthodox satanism as a lyrical and musical theme.

Written by Ilham on 28.01.2009 at 19:02

I am going to talk about something I felt while listening to some specific Black Metal songs, that I could describe as a "religious feeling". Let me explain. The songs I was listening to does not promote any religion, and it is even the opposite of "promoting", but the music itself creates an atmosphere that raised in me a religious feeling. I am a convinced atheist, and have been since I started thinking of metaphysics, but I honestly felt , for the first time, something similar to what religious people talk about, as if the music could reproduce in you the feeling of faith, but not towards a superior being, towards the music itself. As if it wasn't man-made. It made me .. meditate, I guess, but not about the world surrounding me, but about myself as a spirit.
That could be interesting to talk about, since a good part of BM is actually meant to kill every religious feeling.
And, if it helps you, I was listening to Deathspell Omega 's Prayers (the three of them). And well, this is a sort of memory, because I don't listen to Metal anymore, so I don't have the same feeling when I listen to it nowadays. In fact, I never had that feeling again with any other music.

it is not a religious feeling, it is caused by the atmospheric nature of the music, and it is somewhat supposed to make you "become one" with yourself...this is my opinion anyway...

Written by totaliteraliter on 28.01.2009 at 18:02

I don't think paganism (metaphorical or otherwise) is something really out of line with black metal ideology. Praising pagan culture is in itself somewhat anti-Christian, or perhaps at least pre/post Christian.

Written by Berfones on 28.01.2009 at 08:59
I don't know about modern pagans, I know that the vikings for example, even though it may seen so, did not literaly believe in gods ruling the world, it was a folklore and it is nice, good stories and poems, but they took it as a metaphore, if they say that Odin told them not to do so and so it mean they shouldn't do it, not that Odin actully talked to them

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Are you saying they were rational atheists who sacrificed humans to metaphorical gods? Here, if you value wikipedia as a source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_paganism#Worship

You might more accurately talk about paganism in metal as a metaphor, I think you'll find many metal bands who create pagan or satanic art without religious belief being involved. But you'll also find theistic satansits and pagans who are part of the scene.

I am an atheist, and I drink human blood, eat human flesh and cut and burn signs on my skin as a symbolic ritual, does it mean I am religious? no, it does not

Written by Berfones on 28.01.2009 at 08:59

I don't know about modern pagans, I know that the vikings for example, even though it may seen so, did not literaly believe in gods ruling the world, it was a folklore and it is nice, good stories and poems, but they took it as a metaphore, if they say that Odin told them not to do so and so it mean they shouldn't do it, not that Odin actully talked to them

Vikings definitely believed in their own gods. Of this I am 100% certain. It was a religion in it's full right, and certainly no kind of metaphor. They had very intricate rituals, they sacrificed stuff to please their gods (VALUABLE stuff), and the surviving writings from that era are sure as hell not describing any kind of metaphor. Voluspa for instance, is based on the supposed predictions of a seeress (Odin actually DID talk to her, at least in their opinion).

I am of course open to your arguments, but you're gonna have to put forth some really substantial sources to make me take those arguments seriously. I've grown up in the land of the vikings, been surrounded by the remnants of their culture all my life (at least one old pagan tradition remains), and I've read a huge amount of stuff about their culture, religion and customs. There sure as hell were no metaphors involved, the vikings had the zeal and devotion of religious fanatics. In fact, they valued honour (and through honour getting into Valhalla) more than life itself (they used to put old people on the battlefield to give the old surviving warriors the honour of dying in battle, even if it slowed them down and these people posed an inconvenience).

If you have any interest in old norse paganism, Havamal and Voluspa are two great pieces of litterature that should be read. It sure as hell was no metaphor.

Written by Berfones on 28.01.2009 at 21:03

it is not a religious feeling, it is caused by the atmospheric nature of the music, and it is somewhat supposed to make you "become one" with yourself...this is my opinion anyway...

I'm sorry, but I'll stick to the term "religious". It was much more than what you describe there. Although, I didn't "become one with myself", I don't think it ever happened to me.

"Become one with myself". Wtf??? Does it even mean anything besides mystifying some pleasurable experience? I mean, I could interpret fucking also as some kind of mystical bullshit, but in the end, it still is simply fucking. I enjoy black metal and don't need any deep insight to "get it". It's just music, simple.
As for "religious experience", I don't see the necessity to stretch that term so far to include the experience of listening to black metal. But yeah, when I listen to Ulver's "Nattens Madrigal", for example, I get a really powerful feeling from that and it surely can make me forget the everyday shit.

I think all black metal is religious. Just not the Judeo-Christian kind. "Christian black metal" is a shame.

Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 28.01.2009 at 21:35

Written by Berfones on 28.01.2009 at 08:59

I don't know about modern pagans, I know that the vikings for example, even though it may seen so, did not literaly believe in gods ruling the world, it was a folklore and it is nice, good stories and poems, but they took it as a metaphore, if they say that Odin told them not to do so and so it mean they shouldn't do it, not that Odin actully talked to them

Vikings definitely believed in their own gods. Of this I am 100% certain. It was a religion in it's full right, and certainly no kind of metaphor. They had very intricate rituals, they sacrificed stuff to please their gods (VALUABLE stuff), and the surviving writings from that era are sure as hell not describing any kind of metaphor. Voluspa for instance, is based on the supposed predictions of a seeress (Odin actually DID talk to her, at least in their opinion).

I am of course open to your arguments, but you're gonna have to put forth some really substantial sources to make me take those arguments seriously. I've grown up in the land of the vikings, been surrounded by the remnants of their culture all my life (at least one old pagan tradition remains), and I've read a huge amount of stuff about their culture, religion and customs. There sure as hell were no metaphors involved, the vikings had the zeal and devotion of religious fanatics. In fact, they valued honour (and through honour getting into Valhalla) more than life itself (they used to put old people on the battlefield to give the old surviving warriors the honour of dying in battle, even if it slowed them down and these people posed an inconvenience).

If you have any interest in old norse paganism, Havamal and Voluspa are two great pieces of litterature that should be read. It sure as hell was no metaphor.

there is the story of Sigurd and Kriemhild which is based on a real historical event, like several more of the stories in the eddas but in the story some elements were changed to make it look more epic. this I know for sure

Written by Ilham on 28.01.2009 at 22:48

Written by Berfones on 28.01.2009 at 21:03

it is not a religious feeling, it is caused by the atmospheric nature of the music, and it is somewhat supposed to make you "become one" with yourself...this is my opinion anyway...

I'm sorry, but I'll stick to the term "religious". It was much more than what you describe there. Although, I didn't "become one with myself", I don't think it ever happened to me.

I do know what you are talking about, it happenet to me many times, and it doesn't seem all that religious to me...

Written by John Barleycorn on 28.01.2009 at 23:02

"Become one with myself". Wtf??? Does it even mean anything besides mystifying some pleasurable experience? I mean, I could interpret fucking also as some kind of mystical bullshit, but in the end, it still is simply fucking. I enjoy black metal and don't need any deep insight to "get it". It's just music, simple.
As for "religious experience", I don't see the necessity to stretch that term so far to include the experience of listening to black metal. But yeah, when I listen to Ulver's "Nattens Madrigal", for example, I get a really powerful feeling from that and it surely can make me forget the everyday shit.

you do know I was kidding right? (hensthe quetes) I meant the powerful feeling you are she are talking about, it makes you more free I guess, tell me if you ever went headbanging or headspinning in the street before you listened to metal, I know I didn't, metal, especialy black metal, is like alchohol, it feels right, make you what you truly are, and can make you wake up on a building top XD

Written by Berfones on 29.01.2009 at 09:10


I do know what you are talking about, it happenet to me many times, and it doesn't seem all that religious to me...

Believing in something without having any proof or explanation for its existence. The definition of faith. That's what happened to me. But it's not important anyway.

Written by Ilham on 29.01.2009 at 20:27

Written by Berfones on 29.01.2009 at 09:10


I do know what you are talking about, it happenet to me many times, and it doesn't seem all that religious to me...

Believing in something without having any proof or explanation for its existence. The definition of faith. That's what happened to me. But it's not important anyway.

so it is different between us...ok

Written by Damnated on 28.01.2009 at 19:15

Why is everybody talking about christian black metal? the term religious black metal does exist, and it is used to tag the more religious orthodox black metal bands, ie: DSO, Watain, Antaeus, Funeral Mist etc. bands that use theistic or anti-cosmic/orthodox satanism as a lyrical and musical theme.

That's kind of what I was wondering when I first saw this. After reading some German e-mails there are a lot of people saying they prefer Satanic Black Metal, down with the religious black metal. Stating that it has NOTHING to do with Black Metal...what the FUCK?

Written by TheBigRossowski on 19.02.2009 at 23:02

Written by Damnated on 28.01.2009 at 19:15

Why is everybody talking about christian black metal? the term religious black metal does exist, and it is used to tag the more religious orthodox black metal bands, ie: DSO, Watain, Antaeus, Funeral Mist etc. bands that use theistic or anti-cosmic/orthodox satanism as a lyrical and musical theme.

That's kind of what I was wondering when I first saw this. After reading some German e-mails there are a lot of people saying they prefer Satanic Black Metal, down with the religious black metal. Stating that it has NOTHING to do with Black Metal...what the FUCK?

people are often disoriented at last.fm too, they wonder why is ie. Watain tagged as christian black metal.. jesus christ, it's not. also i wonder why don't people think it is jewish? the term orthodox i mean. i saw a blog in my search for bm which was dealing with black metal that had to do with orthodox judaism

Written by Damnated on 20.02.2009 at 01:20

Written by TheBigRossowski on 19.02.2009 at 23:02

Written by Damnated on 28.01.2009 at 19:15

Why is everybody talking about christian black metal? the term religious black metal does exist, and it is used to tag the more religious orthodox black metal bands, ie: DSO, Watain, Antaeus, Funeral Mist etc. bands that use theistic or anti-cosmic/orthodox satanism as a lyrical and musical theme.

That's kind of what I was wondering when I first saw this. After reading some German e-mails there are a lot of people saying they prefer Satanic Black Metal, down with the religious black metal. Stating that it has NOTHING to do with Black Metal...what the FUCK?

people are often disoriented at last.fm too, they wonder why is ie. Watain tagged as christian black metal.. jesus christ, it's not. also i wonder why don't people think it is jewish? the term orthodox i mean. i saw a blog in my search for bm which was dealing with black metal that had to do with orthodox judaism

Heh? Orthodox Judaism? I thought that's where that kind of began..in religion. It was only before 4 years that I found out about Orthodox Christian sects, lol. My Theater teacher was an Orthodox Jew, but he explained the whole thing.

But for the confused here is an explanation of the word ORTHODOX:The word orthodox, from Greek orthodoxos "having the right opinion," from orthos ("right, true, straight") + doxa ("opinion, praise", related to dokein, "thinking"), is typically used to mean adhering to the accepted or traditional and established faith, especially in religion.

It's only ULTRA-true.

Praise the lord!

Religious black metal? whats next? metal without headbanging?

Written by Guest on 20.02.2009 at 21:38

Religious black metal? whats next? metal without headbanging?

Donny, you're out of your element. You're just like a kid who wonders into the middle of a movie...

Read through some of the posts, find some 'religious' bands, a.k.a. Orthodox and try again.

Written by TheBigRossowski on 20.02.2009 at 23:33

Written by Guest on 20.02.2009 at 21:38

Religious black metal? whats next? metal without headbanging?

Donny, you're out of your element. You're just like a kid who wonders into the middle of a movie...

best reply ever.

Written by Damnated on 20.02.2009 at 23:36

Written by TheBigRossowski on 20.02.2009 at 23:33

Written by Guest on 20.02.2009 at 21:38

Religious black metal? whats next? metal without headbanging?

Donny, you're out of your element. You're just like a kid who wonders into the middle of a movie...

best reply ever.

XD

Quote:

Written by TheBigRossowski on 20.02.2009 at 08:47

But for the confused here is an explanation of the word ORTHODOX:The word orthodox, from Greek orthodoxos "having the right opinion," from orthos ("right, true, straight") + doxa ("opinion, praise", related to dokein, "thinking"), is typically used to mean adhering to the accepted or traditional and established faith, especially in religion.

It's only ULTRA-true.

Praise the lord!

Excellent, thank you for explaining the word Orthodox, after reading this thread I think a few people were rather lost on what it means.

This being said, if I recall correctly many "Christian Black Metal" bands ascribe the term "Un-black" or "Holy Un-black" to their style of metal,
this could be deduced as a contrast between some of the general image implications of "Black Metal" and the elements of in this case,
Christianity, that they choose to portray. "Black Metal" in this case could be argued as a musical "sound" or "style" that could in essence be related to from many different lyrical viewpoints without changing the music itself at all.

Food for thought.

Now do you see that Woutjinho?! Three posts and she's on track here

@Damnated- I have my moments;D