Ragana "Hmm, but what I saw and what was really annoying... the third band in that gig was really boring but guys were excited just because there was a blond chick who sung all songs. Now that IS lame. "

That's not lame that's just how heterosexual men works....do you think the girls where screaming for the doors because of their music? (bad example) Hell no!!! The GUYS screamed for the good music, the girls screamed because of jim morrison

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 14:47
He just came off as terribly, terribly sexist. I'm sorry if I have mistaken, but that's the way it sounded.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you how going to metal gigs is harder when you're a girl. Sure, I'm not feathery thin, but at 60 kg I'm at least 10 kg lighter than the average gig-goer. I'm not too tall either and I wear glasses. But somehow, if I wish to stand in the front rows and headbang, that makes me prone to constant attacks, some of which are very serious. I mean, if you wish to take up my place so badly that you lean all over me with your 100 kg body, bruising me, stomping over me and blocking my sight, tell me and I'll gladly give it up for you. I'm sure we're not the only ones bothered by this.

It's especially annoying when older guys do this to girls, or kids. Don't they have younger brothers or sisters at home? Especially to unescorted girls, I can't tell you how many times I've seen people push the shit out of very petite girls, or stray moshers hitting them, sometimes with blood as a result. I'm lucky to be always escorted by my boyfriend, but he is as short as I am, and pretty much stick thin so it's not very fun watching him take all the blows either.

Don't get me started on how it's a METHUL gig. Sure, there's gonna be pushing, pressure, but we're not goddamned pigs, we're people. We're all there to get rid of accumulated energy and hear some good music. There's no need to hurt eachother. There's enough of the band for all of us.
Wow, I'm actually a bit on topic with this one this happens when the crowd is actually "nice" and stays active for the whole gig. Metal crowds aren't a very pleasant place to be a part of sometimes.

Well, I can see why it may have looked like that, but I can assure you, he really isn't sexist. He's one of the very few members on here who's opinion I totally respect, and believe me, if he were sexist, I wouldn't respect him at all.

If you are in a good spot for viewing the band, and you look vulnerable, then some oafish types will see you as an easy target, and do all they can to remove you from that spot. I'm not lucky enough to have a boyfriend, and I'm also very far from being the best looking girl in the world, so I do feel especially vulnerable in those situations. For that reason, It's rare for me now to venture near the front. The last time I did that, I ended up in first aid. Although I could tell those guys were going to be trouble even before the band started playing. I also wear glasses, and one time had them deliberately knocked off my face by stray moshers who thought it'd be fun to bash me over when I thought I was in a safe zone. I love metal music, but metalheads? I have no problem in saying a lot of them are total idiots. And it's always men acting in this oafish, uncouth manner, never women. And some obviously have no problems in being aggressive towards girls in the crowd... I dunno what they get from being like that.

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 14:47
Ummm, dude, if you think all girls are dumb whores, you're pretty wrong. Is there a lot of dumb whores today? Sure. Do they make up THE MAJORITY of girls? It's a stereotype that's equally as true as "all men are dumb" and "all men are pigs who only think about sex". Both are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Most stereotypes aren't really true. They're just used by people who are intellectually lazy. As for posers, I think the percentage of male metalheads who are posers is in actual fact, probably higher than the percentage of female metalheads who are. A lot of male metalheads feel the need to impress peers, and will compromise their honest and true opinions to do that. Guys also use stupid, often frivoulous non-reasons as a factor in why they don't like certain bands. (that singer dresses/looks "gay", etc) This is an attitude I almost never see from women. Female metalheads and male metalheads can both be posers. It's just how that manifests itself is very different. Females are really no worse in this respect than men. The male way is just often overlooked and glossed over, because as I said, we still live very much in a man's world.

Written by Angelic Storm on 09.12.2011 at 17:03

If you are in a good spot for viewing the band, and you look vulnerable, then some oafish types will see you as an easy target, and do all they can to remove you from that spot. I'm not lucky enough to have a boyfriend, and I'm also very far from being the best looking girl in the world, so I do feel especially vulnerable in those situations. For that reason, It's rare for me now to venture near the front. The last time I did that, I ended up in first aid. Although I could tell those guys were going to be trouble even before the band started playing. I also wear glasses, and one time had them deliberately knocked off my face by stray moshers who thought it'd be fun to bash me over when I thought I was in a safe zone. I love metal music, but metalheads? I have no problem in saying a lot of them are total idiots. And it's always men acting in this oafish, uncouth manner, never women. And some obviously have no problems in being aggressive towards girls in the crowd... I dunno what they get from being like that.

I'm sorry to hear that, you're in a worse place than I am usually, since I've only had contact with REALLY big and scary guys once or twice. Oh, yes, there's always THOSE types who just look as if they wanted to start a mosh and kick some ass. But why not mosh with the moshers? Why attack people who have no thought of going into the mosh? Though those types who deliberately start violence are awful, they usually get their asses kicked sooner or later.

Written by Angelic Storm on 09.12.2011 at 17:03

... we still live very much in a man's world.

I don't really mind living in a man's world, something has got to give. I also do not believe in the equality of men and women, we are created different - but just because we're different, it doesn't mean that any one of us is LESS WORTH. Gender discrimination is much more widepsread that it should be, and when women too start believing they're lesser beings - that's when they really become lesser - both less valued and less strong.

The whole point is, that awful behaviour isn't going to stop me from enjoying metal gigs. I'm a metalhead, will be until the day I die and I cannot live without an occasional whiplash and a buzzing ear. But if I got to enjoy them without mysterious 10 cm long bruises, worrying about ripping my clothes and getting them stained by liquor and blood, worrying about my glasses all the time, loss of hair, missing best parts of best songs because I have to look behind me to avoid getting hit by a stray mosher, or even getting serious injury, this life would be so much better.

I don't get why people go to gigs just to mosh. I mean whats the point of going with the intention of moshing. If i'm in the pit, I know the band has done a fucking good job. I'm rarely in the pit, but if I am, its coz the band just makes you want to mosh.

As for all women in the metal scene being sluts and just there to look "cool" well that goes both ways. Its just that women get the brunt of it.
Its like they say when a women sleeps with a lot of guys she's a slut, but if a guy sleeps with a lot of women, hes a the Dude.

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 17:20
I'm sorry to hear that, you're in a worse place than I am usually, since I've only had contact with REALLY big and scary guys once or twice. Oh, yes, there's always THOSE types who just look as if they wanted to start a mosh and kick some ass. But why not mosh with the moshers? Why attack people who have no thought of going into the mosh? Though those types who deliberately start violence are awful, they usually get their asses kicked sooner or later.

Well these guys (at the gig where I ended up in first aid) were not just moshers, they looked like they really wanted to hurt people. I tried to get away from them before the band started, but couldn't as the place was crammed, and I was near the front. At the Anthrax gig where I had my glasses knocked off my face by moshers who slammed into me when I was nowhere near the mosh pit, a kind guy did try and help me find them, but unfortunately when they were eventually found they were broken. So I had to view the rest of the show half blind.

It just irks me how these oafs almost always attack the people they know look weaker and more vulnerable.

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 17:20
I don't really mind living in a man's world, something has got to give. I also do not believe in the equality of men and women, we are created different - but just because we're different, it doesn't mean that any one of us is LESS WORTH. Gender discrimination is much more widepsread that it should be, and when women too start believing they're lesser beings - that's when they really become lesser - both less valued and less strong.

The whole point is, that awful behaviour isn't going to stop me from enjoying metal gigs. I'm a metalhead, will be until the day I die and I cannot live without an occasional whiplash and a buzzing ear. But if I got to enjoy them without mysterious 10 cm long bruises, worrying about ripping my clothes and getting them stained by liquor and blood, worrying about my glasses all the time, loss of hair, missing best parts of best songs because I have to look behind me to avoid getting hit by a stray mosher, or even getting serious injury, this life would be so much better.

Well, that has always been the problem I've had with certain factions of feminism. I do believe very much in the equality of men and women. But only in that we should be treated as having equal worth as people. I want us to have equal rights and worth, but, I don't want us to be treated AS men. Which is a problem I have with many feminists. We are different, and those differences should be celebrated. But different shouldn't mean "lesser". Gender discrimination is a lot better than it used to be, but we still have a long way to go before true equality between the sexes is achieved.

As for your second point, I can only wholeheartedly agree.

Written by Angelic Storm on 09.12.2011 at 17:50

Well, that has always been the problem I've had with certain factions of feminism. I do believe very much in the equality of men and women. But only in that we should be treated as having equal worth as people. I want us to have equal rights and worth, but, I don't want us to be treated AS men. Which is a problem I have with many feminists. We are different, and those differences should be celebrated. But different shouldn't mean "lesser". Gender discrimination is a lot better than it used to be, but we still have a long way to go before true equality between the sexes is achieved.

Oh, yes! Feminism shouldn't be hate pointed towards men, but love for women and the feminine. Some feminists say men are redundant - but it takes both man and a woman to make a baby. Some feminists say women are as strong as a men - but still get annoyed when a man won't carry their suitcase up the stairs. Some feminists proclaim mini skirts and bras are what men designed to keep women in chains and make them sexual objects, but I'd like to point them towards a fashion era where they had to wear corsets instead of bras, bustled skirts instead of something airy and comfortable and high-collared shirts on 40 degrees Celzius.

And to keep this somewhat close to the topic - boy, I'd like to see those militant feminists in a mosh

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 18:01
Oh, yes! Feminism shouldn't be hate pointed towards men, but love for women and the feminine. Some feminists say men are redundant - but it takes both man and a woman to make a baby. Some feminists say women are as strong as a men - but still get annoyed when a man won't carry their suitcase up the stairs. Some feminists proclaim mini skirts and bras are what men designed to keep women in chains and make them sexual objects, but I'd like to point them towards a fashion era where they had to wear corsets instead of bras, bustled skirts instead of something airy and comfortable and high-collared shirts on 40 degrees Celzius.

And to keep this somewhat close to the topic - boy, I'd like to see those militant feminists in a mosh

Yep, militant feminists are a group of people I really have no desire to be associated with at all! They actually only represent a small minority of women's attitudes, even though they like to think they are representives for the entire population of the female gender. We SHOULD be treated differently than men, just not as inferior. This is what some of these feminists would do well to learn.

... That's one moshpit most guys definitely wouldn't want to be "caught" in. Heck, I wouldn't want to be caught in it either!

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 14:47
Ummm, dude, if you think all girls are dumb whores, you're pretty wrong. Is there a lot of dumb whores today? Sure. Do they make up THE MAJORITY of girls? It's a stereotype that's equally as true as "all men are dumb" and "all men are pigs who only think about sex". Both are wrong, wrong, wrong.

I'm pretty sure the majority of the people in this thread who post things like "women in metal = eye candy, nothing more" aren't being serious.

And if they are, don't even waste your time arguing with them.

Also, I can see what you saw about RK's post that screamed "misogynist", but if you read a lot of his posts (excluding the ones about old metal > new metal) then you'll know he's actually quite in touch with his feminine side and has a lot of support for female issues such as the ones you presented in your argument earlier.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.12.2011 at 19:25

I'm pretty sure the majority of the people in this thread who post things like "women in metal = eye candy, nothing more" aren't being serious.

And if they are, don't even waste your time arguing with them.

Also, I can see what you saw about RK's post that screamed "misogynist", but if you read a lot of his posts (excluding the ones about old metal > new metal) then you'll know he's actually quite in touch with his feminine side and has a lot of support for female issues such as the ones you presented in your argument earlier.

Vezzy's post was serious, and I believe Captain's was too. And of course, Ravenking, when you stop by this thread, please accept my honest apology, but be sure to expand a bit on what you've said, perhaps in a PM? Or not, I'll take the others' word for it.

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 14:47

"all men are pigs who only think about sex". Both are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Actually, this part is spot on as far as I'm concerned.
Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

Written by Slayer666 on 09.12.2011 at 20:50

Actually, this part is spot on as far as I'm concerned.
Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

You're 16 (or is it 17) so it's quite normal and a lot of people I know don't actually think with their cocks, as shocking as it might seem to you

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 19:45

Vezzy's post was serious

How can you be sure if I'm serious or SERIOUS?

Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.12.2011 at 19:25

Written by Milena on 09.12.2011 at 14:47
Ummm, dude, if you think all girls are dumb whores, you're pretty wrong. Is there a lot of dumb whores today? Sure. Do they make up THE MAJORITY of girls? It's a stereotype that's equally as true as "all men are dumb" and "all men are pigs who only think about sex". Both are wrong, wrong, wrong.

I'm pretty sure the majority of the people in this thread who post things like "women in metal = eye candy, nothing more" aren't being serious.

And if they are, don't even waste your time arguing with them.

Also, I can see what you saw about RK's post that screamed "misogynist", but if you read a lot of his posts (excluding the ones about old metal > new metal) then you'll know he's actually quite in touch with his feminine side and has a lot of support for female issues such as the ones you presented in your argument earlier.

Lol yeah that was just a joke. I prefer having a chick at a metal concert who knows her music rather than someone whose just there to show off her tits, not that I'm complaining, but still. The reason I (and I'm sure most people) got into metal was coz of the music and not the women. Not the best kinda music if you're looking just to get laid.
On the other hand I don't like the excessive usage of woman as lead singers just to bring in more crowds. Julie christmas, Laura pleasants, Sera timms, Rebecca vernon and a shit load of other women out there in the metal world really putting out some rad tunes, which I respect. No eye candy required as long as its ear candy

Written by vezzy on 09.12.2011 at 22:27
How can you be sure if I'm serious or SERIOUS?

You're as serious as your avatar.

I'm sorry because I missed this discussion and I'm now coming late to it. I've been very busy recently with the Christmas Holidays fast approaching and completely away from this board. I'm trying to catch up at the moment.

I must say that I understand your reaction, MoraWintersoul. I'm a bit hurt to see that you have me in low esteem because of this old post. Give me a chance to clarify everything. In this post, I was basically venting my frustration at all the dumb girls I meet in my life. But I also meet lots of wonderful persons.

First, do not make the mistake of including yourself in the 'dumd girls' category. You're probably not aware of it but I often read your posts and agree with you on many things. I usually don't quote your posts but the reason is simple: we don't listen to the same kind of metal music. You're into Powermetal and things like that (I would say that when it comes to metal, you're in the softer, more melodic spectrum) and I listen almost exclusively to extreme metal so I prefer to generally avoid commenting on Powermetal and the likes now because I'm negatively biased towards it.
You have good knowledge and post spot-on comments. And you can write very good reviews. The fact that you're a girl doesn't make your opinions less valid in any way, as far as I'm concerned.
I mentioned it on this board already: it's always a pleasure for me to see that more and more girls genuinely enjoy metal (and not for frivolous reasons) and can talk about it as well as any guy. Imo, we'll never have too many girls on metal forums.

Are all hot girls dumb bitches and superficial? Surely not, fortunately. I just noticed that many girls with good looks are arrogant and annoying. They believe all is permitted to them only because they have good looks.
Being a bitch is an attitude, not a look. So, you can meet girls with good looks who are very nice and you can meet ugly girls who act like bitches. There's no direct link between looks and acting like a bitch. It just happens that, in my personal life (and I think other men would tell you the same), the most unpleasant and stupid girls I encounter usually have provocative looks.
Also, I know it's not necessarily obvious, but there's a difference between 'beautiful' and 'hot, sexy or sexual'.
I know many girls I would describe as good-looking but they don't dress and look like prostitutes. There's a difference.
I'm working in an office where men are in a small minority, so I know what I'm talking about here.

As for my female friends, I was only stating that I know a few girls who have good looks but act intelligently. I don't see what is bad when I mention that I have esteem and admiration for them. Imo, it's the opposite of misogyny.

You admit it yourself: some girls are quite consumed by their looks. Do you find it interesting to talk to this kind of girl, if you're not like them (and I believe you're not this kind of girl)? Most likely, no. It's the same for me. Not all men will get over superficiality and 'having nothing interesting to say' only because a girl is hot. As I said previously, I find it boring.

You're right about girls going to gigs. Most of them are not there to 'have sex with the singer', though I'm sure some girls are there only for this reason or, at least, would not say no.

"The other annoyance would be this sexism, the belief that women can't truly get into metal because it's a male thing."
Perhaps lots of guys believe in this nonsense but I'm surely not one of them. Girls can appreciate metal as much as any guy and can have as much knowledge as any man. No girl should ever stay way from metal only "because it's a male thing", if she truely enjoys it. Doing so would be stupid and deprive yourself of something you like.
You're 19, isn't it? I can tell that you know more about metal than I did at your age, girl or not. And I'm not ashamed to admit it.

I understand your reaction to my post and believe me I'm not angry at all. But, if you read lots of my comments on this board, you will see that you're probably wrong about me. If what I said negates everything I said previously as far as you're concerned, there is nothing I can really do about it. But at least I tried.

About "young females having no brain", it is an ignorant generalization. If you know me, you already know that I don't judge people solely based on age or sex.

"Seriously, a lot of us are jerks. But not just women are jerks, PEOPLE are jerks. Not only women are prone to MTV's stupidity. Not only women go out in the town just looking to lie to some people and get laid - hell, when you guys do it, it's mostly acceptable. Not only women make bad audience at metal shows, and not ONLY because they want some guy's organs."
These are your words again. Let's say that I wholeheartedly agree. Stupidity has nothing to do with being a girl or a guy.

I also totally agree with Angelic Storm's first paragraph.

I know that I can have come out as terribly sexist if it's not put into context. Sorry if I offended you. It was certainly not my intention. At least it allowed me to tell you that I have respect for you. You were probably unaware of it.
I could say the same about Bloodtears and some other girls.

I have been thinking ppl who like one genre like blackers and bitching about others are they posers? I cant say, because I have seen liie damnated here likes only BM, Venom and Rico was 80's US power fan, NicaZe is heavy fan , Aizlikah was doom , Kais is power, Ivor is prog rock etc

Only few ppl likes more as one genre, ME, mike hotel, Lex, Richard, Erik, I don't accuse those users they are examples. I dunno, but I never have been one genre, I grow up, we all listened what we could get and find, there was no luxury to chose and get info from net... just bootleg tapes, real tapes, rare CD's and most copy from CD or tape.-...
I think ppl are poorer if they likes one genre, and I don't like when they say X is best, other genre sucks.Today to me all those classics sounds like pop music in good meaning.

Another thought, is Wolf Hoffman and such mussicans wha plays one style , he confessed he don't know anything about music after 1982 ... is it metal ? Well I better sit home listen it, not tour world

Only musician I know who's listens many genres and play one is Pim from OT. There are more, but there are only who listens own genre

I honestly don't really go to too many shows anymore. I'm too old!!

Why is that? Well, I already have hearing loss from concerts. If I go and get roughed up it could cost me thousands, I could lose my business, etc. Someone breaks my arm I've gotta start thinking about being a professor or something..

Wtf does a dentist with a busted hand do? Work with his feet?!

I've got kids, a house, a business. I've been to a lot of shows, had a lot of fun, but now I'm just into kicking it under a beach umbrella watching the wildlife in my backyard. Something calling for some headbanging or air-instrumenting comes on (Angel of Death, A New Level are great examples) I'll likely kick my lawnchair over and start a pit with anyone willing, but I'm done showing up to biker bars and slamming into thousands of other people.

Much rather have a glass of wine. White, sparkling, like Riesling or something. Don't like metal any less, though.

Kung Fu Girl's a good one.

I jam the extreme metal on my commute. When I get home it's more like Pink Floyd or The Black Angels - check that band out! Remind me a lot of Sabbath, but they have a punky edge, too. My wife likes them as well.

I never thought anything about women at shows. It's like, "Cool, you like it, too!" I went to two separate shows with the same girl totally by accident:

Ani DiFranco and Cannibal Corpse

Didn't surprise me at all she liked Corpse. That was a good show! I appreciated having someone to hang out with. I think you'll find douchebags in any group, so metalheads are no exception to that rule. We're not somehow exempt from doucheiness.

I think part of the problem with violence at shows is simply the economics of it. Packing 10,000 people in a room the size of a 7-11 is going to lead to some problems, but what are you gonna do? People don't buy the records, so you've gotta make your money on the road. If there were some channel or paid subscription service, Metflix I guess with live shows I would be all over it - shit, I have a pretty good stereo system, probably sound better at home.

People are people, though. They'd pirate it, the bands would go bankrupt somehow. That's why I wear the t-shirts. The one thing I learned from actually being in a band was we made shit from shows. We made shit from records. We made all our cash off shirts. I'll gladly pay them $30 for a shirt and wear it proudly, you have to advertise something!

Better metal than Abercrombie, right?

We're all walking billboards. Might as well advertise what you actually dig. As far as when I am at shows now I try to find good sound. I will move around, I've even been mistaken for having a seizure before. People have asked me to share my drugs with them. I'm like, "Nope, this is just how I am, dead sober!" I am one crazy-ass old man, but I will not mosh.

Written by Spirit Molecule on 09.12.2011 at 22:28

Lol yeah that was just a joke. I prefer having a chick at a metal concert who knows her music rather than someone whose just there to show off her tits, not that I'm complaining, but still. The reason I (and I'm sure most people) got into metal was coz of the music and not the women.

Only super dumb ppl who get into metal cuz' fuckin women

How about we let this thread die gracefully, like it's supposed to do?