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wormdrink414

Posts: 1246

Age: 23
From: USA

  19.08.2009 at 11:32
The question has been at the back of my mind for some time, recently recurring frequently enough to deserve the label of "current obsession". After a brief, at times cordial (at other times anything but) argument loosely relating to this question in the forums and on the youtubes, I am curious to read the thoughts of the metal storm population on the matter. Surely it is agreed generally that Mozart was a superior music composer than the people who wrote for N Sync, but does the largely subjective response one has to music make a belief like this impossible to prove and or sufficiently argue? Do subjectivity and relativity make a statement like "metal in general is better than emo in general" (assuming genres can be clearly defined) false?

(If a thread like this exists already, I apologize)
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  19.08.2009 at 11:37
I am selecting music according to how i like it...it should be either pop or hip-hop, when it is good...but the fact is, most "good" music for me is from metal genres...tell me why...
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


jupitreas
Djerk

Posts: 6516
From: Poland

  19.08.2009 at 18:42
In one word - no.

To elaborate - the value of music, if there is any at all, depends on its intended effect on the listener. Dance music obviously strives to be danceable, gangsta rap is intended to reveal the brutal reality of crime and the urban lifestyle, progressive rock hopes to achieve some kind of intellectual response from the listener, punk urges people to rebel, metal attempts to be loud and crushing. Furthermore, slightly different intentions can be picked up even amongst individual artists and bands.

If an artist successfully fulfills what they intend for their music to achieve, with a certain amount of mastery and extra depth - their music is good, regardless what genre it falls under. Some people might not like it, but that is OK since all good music should be capable of attracting strong, emotional opinions. For example, I personally can't stand a Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera. Nevertheless, I can certainly appreciate the fact that within the boundaries of what they try to achieve with their music, how they perform it and how it is received by their fans, they are definitely doing something right. This is called music appreciation and it is something that most people, particularly metalheads, should work on.

Personally, I am yet to find a genre that doesn't have amongst its representatives some kind of extraordinarily good and genius band. Well, OK, I am yet to find a good euro-disco band but that might be an exception to the rule, besides, its not like I sit around all day looking for the needle in that haystack
tulkas
el parcero

Posts: 4742

Age: 26
From: Colombia

  19.08.2009 at 19:52
Agree with jupitreas. Taste in music is completely subjective, and depends not only on the listener but also on his mood (at least with me). The only thing would be that some musical genres are more "intricately" composed than others, but still that wouldn't mean that some are better than others because of this.
----
love is like a jar of shit with a strawberry on top
Elio
Red Nightmare

Posts: 4920

Age: 24
From: Italy

  25.09.2009 at 15:26
Written by jupitreas on 19.08.2009 at 18:42

In one word - no.

To elaborate - the value of music, if there is any at all, depends on its intended effect on the listener. Dance music obviously strives to be danceable, gangsta rap is intended to reveal the brutal reality of crime and the urban lifestyle, progressive rock hopes to achieve some kind of intellectual response from the listener, punk urges people to rebel, metal attempts to be loud and crushing. Furthermore, slightly different intentions can be picked up even amongst individual artists and bands.

If an artist successfully fulfills what they intend for their music to achieve, with a certain amount of mastery and extra depth - their music is good, regardless what genre it falls under. Some people might not like it, but that is OK since all good music should be capable of attracting strong, emotional opinions. For example, I personally can't stand a Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera. Nevertheless, I can certainly appreciate the fact that within the boundaries of what they try to achieve with their music, how they perform it and how it is received by their fans, they are definitely doing something right. This is called music appreciation and it is something that most people, particularly metalheads, should work on.

Personally, I am yet to find a genre that doesn't have amongst its representatives some kind of extraordinarily good and genius band. Well, OK, I am yet to find a good euro-disco band but that might be an exception to the rule, besides, its not like I sit around all day looking for the needle in that haystack


I pretty much agree with your point, I think that in every genre there are a lot of capable musicians and a lot of terrible ones, so no genre is better than another.

btw, there's surely a GREAT euro-disco band and that is Daft Punk, I guess you're talking about that genre am I right?
----
IntoPlighT said: "Slipknot is 15 years old how the fuck is that Nu metal?"

BEST. QUOTE. EVER.
jupitreas
Djerk

Posts: 6516
From: Poland

  25.09.2009 at 16:00
Written by Elio on 25.09.2009 at 15:26

Written by jupitreas on 19.08.2009 at 18:42

In one word - no.

To elaborate - the value of music, if there is any at all, depends on its intended effect on the listener. Dance music obviously strives to be danceable, gangsta rap is intended to reveal the brutal reality of crime and the urban lifestyle, progressive rock hopes to achieve some kind of intellectual response from the listener, punk urges people to rebel, metal attempts to be loud and crushing. Furthermore, slightly different intentions can be picked up even amongst individual artists and bands.

If an artist successfully fulfills what they intend for their music to achieve, with a certain amount of mastery and extra depth - their music is good, regardless what genre it falls under. Some people might not like it, but that is OK since all good music should be capable of attracting strong, emotional opinions. For example, I personally can't stand a Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera. Nevertheless, I can certainly appreciate the fact that within the boundaries of what they try to achieve with their music, how they perform it and how it is received by their fans, they are definitely doing something right. This is called music appreciation and it is something that most people, particularly metalheads, should work on.

Personally, I am yet to find a genre that doesn't have amongst its representatives some kind of extraordinarily good and genius band. Well, OK, I am yet to find a good euro-disco band but that might be an exception to the rule, besides, its not like I sit around all day looking for the needle in that haystack


I pretty much agree with your point, I think that in every genre there are a lot of capable musicians and a lot of terrible ones, so no genre is better than another.

btw, there's surely a GREAT euro-disco band and that is Daft Punk, I guess you're talking about that genre am I right?


Daft Punk is house.

Euro disco you should be familiar with as an Italian, since Italy had their Italo Disco strain of Euro disco that I'm sure you must have had the misfortune of experiencing at some point. Poland also had it in the form of disco polo.
Elio
Red Nightmare

Posts: 4920

Age: 24
From: Italy

  25.09.2009 at 16:11
Written by jupitreas on 25.09.2009 at 16:00

Written by Elio on 25.09.2009 at 15:26

Written by jupitreas on 19.08.2009 at 18:42

In one word - no.

To elaborate - the value of music, if there is any at all, depends on its intended effect on the listener. Dance music obviously strives to be danceable, gangsta rap is intended to reveal the brutal reality of crime and the urban lifestyle, progressive rock hopes to achieve some kind of intellectual response from the listener, punk urges people to rebel, metal attempts to be loud and crushing. Furthermore, slightly different intentions can be picked up even amongst individual artists and bands.

If an artist successfully fulfills what they intend for their music to achieve, with a certain amount of mastery and extra depth - their music is good, regardless what genre it falls under. Some people might not like it, but that is OK since all good music should be capable of attracting strong, emotional opinions. For example, I personally can't stand a Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera. Nevertheless, I can certainly appreciate the fact that within the boundaries of what they try to achieve with their music, how they perform it and how it is received by their fans, they are definitely doing something right. This is called music appreciation and it is something that most people, particularly metalheads, should work on.

Personally, I am yet to find a genre that doesn't have amongst its representatives some kind of extraordinarily good and genius band. Well, OK, I am yet to find a good euro-disco band but that might be an exception to the rule, besides, its not like I sit around all day looking for the needle in that haystack


I pretty much agree with your point, I think that in every genre there are a lot of capable musicians and a lot of terrible ones, so no genre is better than another.

btw, there's surely a GREAT euro-disco band and that is Daft Punk, I guess you're talking about that genre am I right?


Daft Punk is house.

Euro disco you should be familiar with as an Italian, since Italy had their Italo Disco strain of Euro disco that I'm sure you must have had the misfortune of experiencing at some point. Poland also had it in the form of disco polo.


Sorry, I'm not that good in cataloguing band by genres

Mmh, I think I know what you mean now. If I understand it correctly, this stuff is quite bad.
----
IntoPlighT said: "Slipknot is 15 years old how the fuck is that Nu metal?"

BEST. QUOTE. EVER.
GamlaSonn

Posts: 169

Age: 25
From: Norway
  29.09.2009 at 05:48
Meh what a terrible and useless topic .. music is subject and there's no definite answer for subjective topics.. if you're obsessed with this then I'm sorry for you, give yourself a break man
wormdrink414

Posts: 1246

Age: 23
From: USA

  03.10.2009 at 04:28
Written by GamlaSonn on 29.09.2009 at 05:48

Meh what a terrible and useless topic .. music is subject and there's no definite answer for subjective topics.. if you're obsessed with this then I'm sorry for you, give yourself a break man


That's a bit harsh isn't it? I wasn't really asking for definite answers, rather asking for different opinions and ideas. Threads with subjective topics of discussion can be useful when attempting to piece together an understanding, not necessarily yes or no answers, of said subjective topic.

By "music is the subject" are you implying that, when one listens to music, he or she does not allow pre-existent biases and associations affect his or her response to the music? Ideally this would not be the case, and does not necessarily need to be the case, but it is. For example, most metalheads would encounter a great deal of faith-related trouble allowing themselves to enjoy the Backstreet Boys.
DayFly

Posts: 377
From: Germany

  23.10.2009 at 15:35
Quote:

I wasn't really asking for definite answers, rather asking for different opinions and ideas.

Looking at your reviews and their anti-emo agenda I'd say you were looking for affirmation that there are genres to be spat on.

Quote:

By "music is the subject" are you implying that, when one listens to music, he or she does not allow pre-existent biases and associations affect his or her response to the music? Ideally this would not be the case, and does not necessarily need to be the case, but it is. For example, most metalheads would encounter a great deal of faith-related trouble allowing themselves to enjoy the Backstreet Boys.

So what? Metalheads are biased towards metal bands just the same, even if they like the band's genre.
wormdrink414

Posts: 1246

Age: 23
From: USA

  05.11.2009 at 04:28
Written by DayFly on 23.10.2009 at 15:35

Quote:

I wasn't really asking for definite answers, rather asking for different opinions and ideas.

Looking at your reviews and their anti-emo agenda I'd say you were looking for affirmation that there are genres to be spat on.

Quote:

By "music is the subject" are you implying that, when one listens to music, he or she does not allow pre-existent biases and associations affect his or her response to the music? Ideally this would not be the case, and does not necessarily need to be the case, but it is. For example, most metalheads would encounter a great deal of faith-related trouble allowing themselves to enjoy the Backstreet Boys.

So what? Metalheads are biased towards metal bands just the same, even if they like the band's genre.



The emo bashing in the Underoath review is hardly of any sort of agenda. My first review, of an album from a band that is not even featured on the website, contained an unfair disposition held toward the emo/Christian screamo scene, for the sake of elitist humor first and foremost but that does not make the clearly unfair opinion within that review an agenda. I have absolutely refrained from bashing on emos since the "Underoath incident". I was innocent to the dedication of the musical relativists here. I do have a great deal of respect for those who came to the emos defense. Sometimes I need to have my metal elitism put in check. It seems however, and pardon me if I am wrong, that your response to the review is affecting your approach to what should be an interesting question to explore (in that you have dissected a comment of mine rather than contributing an opinion to the topic at hand). There was no malicious intent to have certain music types "spat at" here.

The question posed is one with a relatively sincere motivation. You may be surprised to learn that I agree with those who believe that what makes music good is entirely relative (thus making the use of the term "good" wrong). This is not to say that I enjoy all music to an equal extent though. I would always, to reference my other comment, choose to listen to Mozart over the Backstreet Boys. I willalways listen to Corpsegrinder led Cannibal Corpse over Barnes led Cannibal Corpse.

With regards to your your comment on the second quote, I don't understand what you are disagreeing with.

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