Written by Ganondox on 28.10.2016 at 17:51

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 27.10.2016 at 10:49

Written by Ganondox on 27.10.2016 at 09:54

Written by Karlabos on 10.08.2016 at 01:22

I like it how there is not a single extreme metal alternative listed.
It's almost like the poll is tendencious in a certain way

But nah... Surely not

Some pure metalcore is also more extreme than most death metal as well, especially where it overlaps with noise rock.

Whaa..t?!

No way in any sort of metalcore sound could be extreme than death metal. Also when it comes to overlapping, i don't think it creates too much fuss.

I'm guessing you haven't heard much pure metalcore and think it's something like Killswitch Engage, there is a reason metalcore was far more underground than death metal before then.

I still don't know why when it comes to metalcore, people start directly compare with KsE. Secondly, Converge is something i feel it isn't pure hardcore but not pure metalcore either. It's a nasty mash of both which resulted in big bull been incessantly crushed by JCB machine. Anyhow, it still doesn't reflect towards been more extreme than death metal.

Also, the spectrum of death metal sound is superiorly extreme than any sort of metalcore sound can be reach. So that really cut the chords.

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 28.10.2016 at 19:26

Written by Ganondox on 28.10.2016 at 17:51

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 27.10.2016 at 10:49

Written by Ganondox on 27.10.2016 at 09:54

Written by Karlabos on 10.08.2016 at 01:22

I like it how there is not a single extreme metal alternative listed.
It's almost like the poll is tendencious in a certain way

But nah... Surely not

Some pure metalcore is also more extreme than most death metal as well, especially where it overlaps with noise rock.

Whaa..t?!

No way in any sort of metalcore sound could be extreme than death metal. Also when it comes to overlapping, i don't think it creates too much fuss.

I'm guessing you haven't heard much pure metalcore and think it's something like Killswitch Engage, there is a reason metalcore was far more underground than death metal before then.

I still don't know why when it comes to metalcore, people start directly compare with KsE. Secondly, Converge is something i feel it isn't pure hardcore but not pure metalcore either. It's a nasty mash of both which resulted in big bull been incessantly crushed by JCB machine. Anyhow, it still doesn't reflect towards been more extreme than death metal.

Also, the spectrum of death metal sound is superiorly extreme than any sort of metalcore sound can be reach. So that really cut the chords.

Killswitch Engage was the first melodic metalcore band, that is why.

To say Converge is a mix of metalcore and hardcore punk is an anachronism, metalcore was originally used to refer to bands which sound like them (which is back when the term still made sense, as modern metalcore bands don't sound anything like hardcore punk). Your next two sentences don't make any sense, but I find Converge to be much more extreme than most death metal, only exception being either the grindcore influenced death metal, or the technical death metal that sounds a bit like mathcore (which is a form of metalcore, and IMO the most extreme form of rock on the fast end of the genre).

Death metal's extremity is overrated, it's a standard that has been topped long ago. Grindcore is more extreme, black metal is more extreme, old-school metalcore is more extreme, sludge metal is more extreme, the raw-side of industrial metal is more extreme. Heck, even some thrash metal is more extreme than most death metal.

Written by Ganondox on 29.10.2016 at 02:33

Death metal's extremity is overrated, it's a standard that has been topped long ago. Grindcore is more extreme, black metal is more extreme, old-school metalcore is more extreme, sludge metal is more extreme, the raw-side of industrial metal is more extreme. Heck, even some thrash metal is more extreme than most death metal.

Just what sort of death metal are you talking about?

Here are some modern examples which none of the genres you mentioned above apart from black comes even close to match.

I agreed with Ganondox when he said that metalcore can be more extreme than death metal, which it can, but suggesting that death metal's standard is now outclassed by other genres isn't really true at all, or that it's overrated. The likes of Converge convey a sense of hyper aggression would can be perceived as extreme but really they're far more palatable to the general populace than a lot of death metal. Extreme isn't just about being noisy and fast. Grindcore for example sees very little experimentation so is very standardised. Death metal on the other hand covers a range of sounds and approaches, some of which are par for the course, others experiment with more left field structures and sounds which endear it less to the average person, ergo, more extreme.

Metalcore can't be considered extreme metal because it's not metal.

Written by 3rdWorld on 29.10.2016 at 21:34

Written by Ganondox on 29.10.2016 at 02:33

Death metal's extremity is overrated, it's a standard that has been topped long ago. Grindcore is more extreme, black metal is more extreme, old-school metalcore is more extreme, sludge metal is more extreme, the raw-side of industrial metal is more extreme. Heck, even some thrash metal is more extreme than most death metal.

Just what sort of death metal are you talking about?

Here are some modern examples which none of the genres you mentioned above apart from black comes even close to match.

I said SOME metalcore is heavier MOST death metal, and gave examples of types of death metal which pushes the boundaries. Most death metal pushes no boundardies, it's just rehashing the stuff which done in the 90s. All of the bands you listed are rather avant-garde approaches on death metal, when I said "blah blah" genre is more extreme than death metal, I was referring specifically to what death metal was at the time those genres emerged. 90's metalcore is more extreme than 90's death metal, ect.

Written by Guest on 29.10.2016 at 21:46

I agreed with Ganondox when he said that metalcore can be more extreme than death metal, which it can, but suggesting that death metal's standard is now outclassed by other genres isn't really true at all, or that it's overrated. The likes of Converge convey a sense of hyper aggression would can be perceived as extreme but really they're far more palatable to the general populace than a lot of death metal. Extreme isn't just about being noisy and fast. Grindcore for example sees very little experimentation so is very standardised. Death metal on the other hand covers a range of sounds and approaches, some of which are par for the course, others experiment with more left field structures and sounds which endear it less to the average person, ergo, more extreme.

While there may be many death metal bands less palatable than Converge, I still maintain my claim that Converge is much less palatable than MOST death metal, as most death metal isn't experimental, while Converge was very experimental when they started out. There is still lots of experimental metalcore, maybe as much as there is experimental death metal, it's hard to apply a metric to that regard. I will say that regarding the specific bands you gave though, none of them really go against my previous points. First, I've consider Converge (using the album Jane Doe as reference) to be more extreme than Gorguts, Ulcerate, and maybe Artificial Brain. Next, I'll categorize Dragged Into the Sunlight (which I'm probably place as the high point of modern extreme metal, they're extreme and they're good) and Muknal as black metal before death metal. !.T.O.O.H.!. more represents an extreme in progressive metal than in death metal, and I'd place Neoanderthals as avant-garde metal rather than death metal. Encenathrakh is the one band in the list which I'll take as being proper death metal which is more extreme than Converge, but they fit under the umbrella I previously gave as technical death metal which starts to resemble mathcore. Anyway, my point was just that because metalcore CAN be more extreme than death metal, it CAN be considered a form of extreme metal, which is how this pertains to the thread, and now this is so off topic.

Written by Karlabos on 30.10.2016 at 03:04

Metalcore can't be considered extreme metal because it's not metal.

Wining comment, lol.

Ulcerate, Gorguts and Artificial Brain less extreme than Converge? I think that's a fairly ridiculous notion tbh. Converge are eminently more marketable than the other 3 bands whose sound is far less approachable to the average person who I'm sure when put side by side would favoure Converge as being the more palatable. The dense impenetrable aesthetics, heightened dissonance and atypical structures of the 3 death metal bands would alienate most people. Converge are angular and aggressive but that's far more normalised thing in metal and music. Converge are basically on the edge of the mainstream end of extreme and cater to the more naturalised ideals of "extreme." The bands I posted fall outside of that into the periphery of truly left-field and avant-garde death metal. Big difference.

Dragged Into Sunlight and Muknal black metal? No, you're flat out incorrect there and falling into the common trap of lumping things in with black metal because of its vague qualities. Superficial atmospheric elements that resemble black metal don't make something that when it's clearly so steeped in death metal, it only endears it a "blackened" prefix. The core and structure of them is inherently death metal. You clearly haven't heard Incantation if you think Muknal are black metal because it's fairly obvious where the groundwork for Muknal was laid.

Like it or not tech death is considered death metal so it can be used in this argument. Converge to my ears are heavily removed from punk anyway, similar to how tech death is different from old school death. Still falls under the umbrella of death metal though according to the masses and how it is generally categorised, just like TOOH and Neandertals are primarily associated with death metal on a base level, despite their avant-garde or progressive tendencies (look them up; you'll probably struggle not to find the words death metal or deathgrind associated with them). You can't dissociate them just because it doesn't fit your side of the argument (or because your ability to define death metal is lacking). These days death metal has far more experimental tendencies than it did say, 5 or so years, or thereabouts which is why your comment about death metal's overrated extremity appears out of touch. Broadly basing something on death metal and pushing it toward the avant-garde or splicing it with other genres is precisely what makes death metal the more extreme genre right now at this juncture. Metalcore from what I've heard just tends to be faster or more technical, or mixes with ambient etc. And yeah, connecting Encenethrakh to mathcore is fairly spurious argumentation, and seems like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole just to suit your points.


You are right in that Converge are more extreme that most death metal though. Most death metal is ordinary, like the bulk of any genre.

Written by Ganondox on 30.10.2016 at 03:46

I said SOME metalcore is heavier MOST death metal, and gave examples of types of death metal which pushes the boundaries. Most death metal pushes no boundardies, it's just rehashing the stuff which done in the 90s. All of the bands you listed are rather avant-garde approaches on death metal, when I said "blah blah" genre is more extreme than death metal, I was referring specifically to what death metal was at the time those genres emerged. 90's metalcore is more extreme than 90's death metal, ect.

While there may be many death metal bands less palatable than Converge, I still maintain my claim that Converge is much less palatable than MOST death metal, as most death metal isn't experimental, while Converge was very experimental when they started out. There is still lots of experimental metalcore, maybe as much as there is experimental death metal, it's hard to apply a metric to that regard. I will say that regarding the specific bands you gave though, none of them really go against my previous points. First, I've consider Converge (using the album Jane Doe as reference) to be more extreme than Gorguts, Ulcerate, and maybe Artificial Brain. Next, I'll categorize Dragged Into the Sunlight (which I'm probably place as the high point of modern extreme metal, they're extreme and they're good) and Muknal as black metal before death metal. !.T.O.O.H.!. more represents an extreme in progressive metal than in death metal, and I'd place Neoanderthals as avant-garde metal rather than death metal. Encenathrakh is the one band in the list which I'll take as being proper death metal which is more extreme than Converge, but they fit under the umbrella I previously gave as technical death metal which starts to resemble mathcore. Anyway, my point was just that because metalcore CAN be more extreme than death metal, it CAN be considered a form of extreme metal, which is how this pertains to the thread, and now this is so off topic.

I think you mistake aggressive vocals and an overall tendency to sound pissed off, dissonant guitars and feedback and many other basic sonic palettes of hardcore etc. which are used in metalcore (so Jane Doe here) to be more extreme than death metal (Gorguts, Ulcerate). What you said applies to basic forms of death metal in 90's which is defo true. The genre was quite stagnant in the nineties and to a degree in the noughties due to popularity of -core and alternative genres which isn't the case at all now.

Converge more extreme/unpalatable than Ulcerate and Gorguts? Don't think so. For me Ulcerate's massively thick wall-of-sound dissonant guitar textures and unrelenting blast beats just steamroll over any -core band I can think of, hell they steamroll over 90% of all extreme metal bands as far as I've heard. Keep in mind that probably most people and myself included love Converge and especially Jane Doe a lot but their palette doesn't match.

Here's some Technical Brutal deathcore (ofc its deathcore but predominantly inspired by Techdeath, I guess they just used -core vox since they were part of the era, how awful and also many purists consider most techdeath to be not death metal at all but I guess I still enjoy the genre to a degree ) thats one of the most technical and extreme dm I've heard all my life.



The sheer technicality there rips apart anything hardcore/metalcore muster up. And saying "techdeath starts to resemble mathcore" is an anachronism from yourself as you clearly know which genre came first and in no way Encenethrakh are/resemble mathcore.

Ok, if saying "Some metalcore is more extreme than most death metal" and "Converge is more extreme than most dm" was your point then its true and I agree. But its the same case with any two extreme metal genres as Joe pointed out above, the top/extreme end of any genre is definitely going to be more extreme than any other bulk of the genre because the bulk of most genres today are utter crap.

Written by tominator on 28.10.2016 at 01:13

Written by ToMegaTherion on 28.10.2016 at 00:24


Valid point with respect to Iced Earth and generally I agree. You are quite correct that they probably fall more into the Heavy Metal camp especially these days. Perhaps Kamelot might have been better to make my point - but it nevertheless the point remains the same.

I have come across Iron Mask as well and they are a good act and Diabolica a very good album
My frustration is more directed towards the mountains of rubbish in between the gems.

Yeah, you are definitely right that there is a lot of rubbish in the Power Metal genre. Which is really unfortunate. Especially since you can clearly see that there is so much potential in the genre. Some bands are absolutely brilliant. You actually picked out another good band in the genre: Kamelot. But yeah unfortunately for every good or great album you find there are 5 mediocre ones and 20 terrible ones.

Absolutely spot on - it is unfortunately because absolutely there is potential. One problem I see amongst many bands is that they don't tend to experiment much with their sound. You look at Black Metal these days and everyone who was doing good old black metal in the 1990s since branched out into other areas with only a few exceptions. Most took it upon themselves to take things in new and interesting directions so their music didn't get stale. For better or worse. While the likes of Stratovarius Primal Fear Black Majesty and Hammerfall plug away at essentially the same sound they have had forever. Yes they still produce decent songs, here and there, but rarely a good solid album.

None of these are bad bands, they are very good musicians and they have made good music from time to time - but i find most of their work now boring and stale.

Written by 3rdWorld on 30.10.2016 at 04:31

Written by Ganondox on 30.10.2016 at 03:46

I said SOME metalcore is heavier MOST death metal, and gave examples of types of death metal which pushes the boundaries. Most death metal pushes no boundardies, it's just rehashing the stuff which done in the 90s. All of the bands you listed are rather avant-garde approaches on death metal, when I said "blah blah" genre is more extreme than death metal, I was referring specifically to what death metal was at the time those genres emerged. 90's metalcore is more extreme than 90's death metal, ect.

While there may be many death metal bands less palatable than Converge, I still maintain my claim that Converge is much less palatable than MOST death metal, as most death metal isn't experimental, while Converge was very experimental when they started out. There is still lots of experimental metalcore, maybe as much as there is experimental death metal, it's hard to apply a metric to that regard. I will say that regarding the specific bands you gave though, none of them really go against my previous points. First, I've consider Converge (using the album Jane Doe as reference) to be more extreme than Gorguts, Ulcerate, and maybe Artificial Brain. Next, I'll categorize Dragged Into the Sunlight (which I'm probably place as the high point of modern extreme metal, they're extreme and they're good) and Muknal as black metal before death metal. !.T.O.O.H.!. more represents an extreme in progressive metal than in death metal, and I'd place Neoanderthals as avant-garde metal rather than death metal. Encenathrakh is the one band in the list which I'll take as being proper death metal which is more extreme than Converge, but they fit under the umbrella I previously gave as technical death metal which starts to resemble mathcore. Anyway, my point was just that because metalcore CAN be more extreme than death metal, it CAN be considered a form of extreme metal, which is how this pertains to the thread, and now this is so off topic.

I think you mistake aggressive vocals and an overall tendency to sound pissed off, dissonant guitars and feedback and many other basic sonic palettes of hardcore etc. which are used in metalcore (so Jane Doe here) to be more extreme than death metal (Gorguts, Ulcerate). What you said applies to basic forms of death metal in 90's which is defo true. The genre was quite stagnant in the nineties and to a degree in the noughties due to popularity of -core and alternative genres which isn't the case at all now.

Converge more extreme/unpalatable than Ulcerate and Gorguts? Don't think so. For me Ulcerate's massively thick wall-of-sound dissonant guitar textures and unrelenting blast beats just steamroll over any -core band I can think of, hell they steamroll over 90% of all extreme metal bands as far as I've heard. Keep in mind that probably most people and myself included love Converge and especially Jane Doe a lot but their palette doesn't match.

Here's some Technical Brutal deathcore (ofc its deathcore but predominantly inspired by Techdeath, I guess they just used -core vox since they were part of the era, how awful and also many purists consider most techdeath to be not death metal at all but I guess I still enjoy the genre to a degree ) thats one of the most technical and extreme dm I've heard all my life.



The sheer technicality there rips apart anything hardcore/metalcore muster up. And saying "techdeath starts to resemble mathcore" is an anachronism from yourself as you clearly know which genre came first and in no way Encenethrakh are/resemble mathcore.

Ok, if saying "Some metalcore is more extreme than most death metal" and "Converge is more extreme than most dm" was your point then its true and I agree. But its the same case with any two extreme metal genres as Joe pointed out above, the top/extreme end of any genre is definitely going to be more extreme than any other bulk of the genre because the bulk of most genres today are utter crap.

"I think you mistake aggressive vocals and an overall tendency to sound pissed off, dissonant guitars and feedback and many other basic sonic palettes of hardcore etc. which are used in metalcore (so Jane Doe here) to be more extreme than death metal (Gorguts, Ulcerate)." Mistake? I find these elements to be more extreme than the basic sonic palette which makes up death metal, though death metal is more extreme than hardcore punk because it takes it's elements further. It's not just the hardcore elements which make Converge extreme (though they take the extreme elements of hardcore to a particular extreme), it's also the complex rhythms.

Actually the wall of sound production is one of the main reasons I found Ulcerate to be more accessible, it gives them a fairly polished sounding sound. Maybe I've just been listening to too much Devin Townsend. (Really liking their general sound, but like most extreme metal I find it gets tiring after awhile, I need something with a bit more textural variation) Also Gorguts just really isn't *that* extreme, at least by modern standards. Sure, Gorguts uses more pinch harmonics, but Converge has a much harsher general tone. I'm not actually a personal fan of Converge, I just find them to sound really extreme. Listened to that song, and while it's pretty brutal, I still don't find it to be as extreme as Converge (I typically prefer listening to stuff I find more palatable), again mainly because of it's very polished production.

Technical death metal proceeded mathcore, but I find the early mathcore to be far more extreme than the early technical death metal. Like I don't find Atheist or even Necrophagist to be ANYWHERE near as heavy as Converge (as much as they meet the label) or Botch or The Dillinger Escape Plan on Counting Infinity. "And saying "techdeath starts to resemble mathcore" is an anachronism from yourself as you clearly know which genre came first and in no way Encenethrakh are/resemble mathcore. " Well Encenethrakh didn't proceed mathcore, and they resemble mathcore more than most technical death metal bands do.

"Ok, if saying "Some metalcore is more extreme than most death metal" and "Converge is more extreme than most dm" was your point then its true and I agree." That's my main point, yes, though obviously I disagree on some technicalities about which band is more extreme than which other one.

Well I once loved a load of mathcore bands more than any techdeath band as well. The Number Twelve Looks Like You, Car Bomb, Daughters, Psyopus were all my favs once and all are indeed impenetrably technical. But as a "metal" sub-genre the longevity and musical enjoyment of them are far lesser than what other technical metal bands provided for me. So seems to me the genre is quickly fading away with nothing but a few minor players left.

Written by Ganondox on 31.10.2016 at 05:25

Actually the wall of sound production is one of the main reasons I found Ulcerate to be more accessible, it gives them a fairly polished sounding sound.

Well Encenethrakh didn't proceed mathcore, and they resemble mathcore more than most technical death metal bands do.

"Ok, if saying "Some metalcore is more extreme than most death metal" and "Converge is more extreme than most dm" was your point then its true and I agree." That's my main point, yes, though obviously I disagree on some technicalities about which band is more extreme than which other one.

Comparing Ulcerate's wall of sound to Devin's is an oversimplification and it ends just on the production alone, musically speaking they are poles apart so I'm not gonna waste my time on this.

If you find early mathcore to be more extreme than early techdeath then thats fine but thats definitely not the case now and in fact, mathcore has become one of the most stagnant genres ever, so please don't get hung up on the early scenes and make techdeath look like a lame genre, In fact I have never heard much of the early bands there except Death's last few albums and Necrophagist's debut as this is a genre where I can clearly see evolution is happening all along so better to scourge for the recent oddities, please try them yourself I am sure you will get converted too. Mathcore has nothing but a few minor players left now, I can count three major bands releasing albums this year, just three: Car Bomb, DEP, Ion Dissonance.

And, Encenethrakh in no way resemble mathcore. I don't see any angular riffs, screaming vocals or start-stop breaks. In fact their approach to drumming and playing is almost like a free form jazzy approach while the rest of the elements there: vocals, riffs and the overall atmosphere resemble brutal death metal. And the same case with Viraemia, I think you enjoy Converge's overall aggressive tone and music more than early death/techdeath, fine. But to me, the drumming techniques, proficiency, playing and songwriting for techdeath like the above 2 mentioned bands all to be more demanding and exhaustive than converge or any metalcore band on this planet. Hence definitely more extreme.

Written by 3rdWorld on 31.10.2016 at 07:30

Written by Ganondox on 31.10.2016 at 05:25

Actually the wall of sound production is one of the main reasons I found Ulcerate to be more accessible, it gives them a fairly polished sounding sound.

Well Encenethrakh didn't proceed mathcore, and they resemble mathcore more than most technical death metal bands do.

"Ok, if saying "Some metalcore is more extreme than most death metal" and "Converge is more extreme than most dm" was your point then its true and I agree." That's my main point, yes, though obviously I disagree on some technicalities about which band is more extreme than which other one.

Comparing Ulcerate's wall of sound to Devin's is an oversimplification and it ends just on the production alone, musically speaking they are poles apart so I'm not gonna waste my time on this.

If you find early mathcore to be more extreme than early techdeath then thats fine but thats definitely not the case now and in fact, mathcore has become one of the most stagnant genres ever, so please don't get hung up on the early scenes and make techdeath look like a lame genre, In fact I have never heard much of the early bands there except Death's last few albums and Necrophagist's debut as this is a genre where I can clearly see evolution is happening all along so better to scourge for the recent oddities, please try them yourself I am sure you will get converted too. Mathcore has nothing but a few minor players left now, I can count three major bands releasing albums this year, just three: Car Bomb, DEP, Ion Dissonance.

And, Encenethrakh in no way resemble mathcore. I don't see any angular riffs, screaming vocals or start-stop breaks. In fact their approach to drumming and playing is almost like a free form jazzy approach while the rest of the elements there: vocals, riffs and the overall atmosphere resemble brutal death metal. And the same case with Viraemia, I think you enjoy Converge's overall aggressive tone and music more than early death/techdeath, fine. But to me, the drumming techniques, proficiency, playing and songwriting for techdeath like the above 2 mentioned bands all to be more demanding and exhaustive than converge or any metalcore band on this planet. Hence definitely more extreme.

You seem to have misundestood a lot of what I was implying. The key thing is that when I say extreme, I don't mean better or more creative, I mean a less accessible, harsher sound. Mathcore might have stagnated, but I still find it to be a more extreme sound than most techdeath, with some exceptions. I already vastly prefer techdeath to mathcore when it comes to personal preference though (so no, I DON'T prefer Converge to early techdeath), but again, I'm generally not a fan of extreme metal. I primarily like DEP for their pop songs, not for their mathcore.

With Encethrahk, it's mainly the drumming (doesn't sound anything like actual jazz, doesn't have anywhere near enough high-hat, but it does use a ton of blast beats and have a ton similar to banging on a can) and the guitar tone which remind me of mathcore as they are a bit grindcore-y while still technical. And sure, while it doesn't have angular riffs, it does have a lot of dissonant noodling which is more in the style of mathcore than techdeth.

Written by Ganondox on 31.10.2016 at 08:39

Lot of circular arguments going on around here. Let me say these.

1. Converge is NOT more harsh/less palatable than any of those above mentioned techdeath bands a la Viraemia, Ulcerate, Gorguts etc. The reason I was talking about the musical aspects isn't to point out techdeath is more creative, it is to point out techdeath is in fact more extreme and hence less palatable to the average listener. I don't think any average or newbie metalhead will enjoy Encenethrakh/Viraemia/Antediluvian/Gorguts head on as easily as they might Jane Doe. Hell, I've heard Jane Doe even during my early days into metal and still enjoyed the fuck out of it but it took me years to enjoy a records like the early albums of Suffocation. I never couldn't understand why they went with such a bad production initially but it took a lot of "acquired liking" to enjoy it.

2. Mathcore in its entirety might contain only a few dozen bands so saying ENTIRE mathcore is more extreme than MOST dm/techdeath is in fact gonna be true as previously said the bulk of any genre are utter crap.

3. Also As previously stated, I can't remember a single mathcore band that resembles Encenathrakh. I am huge fan of mathcore and heard pretty much all the big players and albums but don't find a single similarity with mathcore. The guitar tone has no dissonance at all, quite a bit of noodling yes which is also the predominant aspect of techdeath so NOTHING mathcore at all. The drumming has blast beats yes, but most of the time always keeps changing the rhythms. It indeed doesn't resemble jazz in the traditional sense but still follows the free form/improvised playing style of jazz. Their overall sound in the end is like impenetrable technical drumming with overall a brutal dm style vocals and themes.

Written by 3rdWorld on 31.10.2016 at 11:28

Written by Ganondox on 31.10.2016 at 08:39

Lot of circular arguments going on around here. Let me say these.

1. Converge is NOT more harsh/less palatable than any of those above mentioned techdeath bands a la Viraemia, Ulcerate, Gorguts etc. The reason I was talking about the musical aspects isn't to point out techdeath is more creative, it is to point out techdeath is in fact more extreme and hence less palatable to the average listener. I don't think any average or newbie metalhead will enjoy Encenethrakh/Viraemia/Antediluvian/Gorguts head on as easily as they might Jane Doe. Hell, I've heard Jane Doe even during my early days into metal and still enjoyed the fuck out of it but it took me years to enjoy a records like the early albums of Suffocation. I never couldn't understand why they went with such a bad production initially but it took a lot of "acquired liking" to enjoy it.

2. Mathcore in its entirety might contain only a few dozen bands so saying ENTIRE mathcore is more extreme than MOST dm/techdeath is in fact gonna be true as previously said the bulk of any genre are utter crap.

3. Also As previously stated, I can't remember a single mathcore band that resembles Encenathrakh. I am huge fan of mathcore and heard pretty much all the big players and albums but don't find a single similarity with mathcore. The guitar tone has no dissonance at all, quite a bit of noodling yes which is also the predominant aspect of techdeath so NOTHING mathcore at all. The drumming has blast beats yes, but most of the time always keeps changing the rhythms. It indeed doesn't resemble jazz in the traditional sense but still follows the free form/improvised playing style of jazz. Their overall sound in the end is like impenetrable technical drumming with overall a brutal dm style vocals and themes.

I still completely disagree with point one, especially regarding Gorguts, but no amount of arguing is going to change either of our opinions. I'll just say I've always been into the epic side of metal rather than the aggressive side, so I find the core stuff less accessible.

Regarding three, with the guitar tone it's that it's a bit more shrill than most techdeth, and the many of the noodingly reminds me more of mathcore than techdeth as the techdeth noodling tends to be a little bit more melodic or something, I've heard similar lead guitar lines in both DEP and Converge and a bunch of other random hardcore-ish bands. It's not that it sounds super much like mathcore, just more so than traditional techdeth.

Fair enough, if it reminds you of mathcore but that alone is not sufficient to categorize the album into mathcore or even point them out as having elements of the genre. By your logic, we may as well call Fleshgod Apocalypse classical music and Billy Cobham techdeath.

Written by ToMegaTherion on 31.10.2016 at 03:01

Absolutely spot on - it is unfortunately because absolutely there is potential. One problem I see amongst many bands is that they don't tend to experiment much with their sound. You look at Black Metal these days and everyone who was doing good old black metal in the 1990s since branched out into other areas with only a few exceptions. Most took it upon themselves to take things in new and interesting directions so their music didn't get stale. For better or worse. While the likes of Stratovarius Primal Fear Black Majesty and Hammerfall plug away at essentially the same sound they have had forever. Yes they still produce decent songs, here and there, but rarely a good solid album.

None of these are bad bands, they are very good musicians and they have made good music from time to time - but i find most of their work now boring and stale.

That's absolutely right. I recently talked to someone about bands getting stale. And I immediately told him about something I have noticed a lot, especially when it's about my favourite band: Iron Maiden (not a power metal band but this also applies to other bands). There are usually 2 kind of groups of metalfans. Those that always want to hear the same stuff to listen to. And those that like it when a band experiments more.

I've heard too many times people complaining about the fact that Iron Maiden went in a more progressive direction with the 2000s albums. If that's what the band wants to do then I'm perfectly fine with that.

I think that's the big difference between two kind of groups. Those that want to hear the same sound and style over and over again and those that like it when a band experiments a bit.

I like to look at it this way. A band that experiments a bit might have some albums every once and awhile that are maybe a bit disappointing but a band that doesn't experiment will quickly become stale and boring to listen to. The bands that experiment can maybe improve their sound and overall style, while the other bands just get boring after awhile.

A good example of a band that basically doesn't experiment is Sabaton. Now, I like them but honestly if you've heard 1 or 2 albums of them, you know exactly what you are going to get with the next album. Their last album feels just so stale, there is no noticable progression and no experimentation.

Ganondox's amusing travels round the genresphere are always fun to behold

^lawl, Indeed it seems to be.

Exactly what Joe wrote.

After all comparisons, digging into grassroots level of sounds which unfurls a particular genre, castigation and plethora of examples via YouTube; all now has come back to ground to this thing-Metalcore isn't extreme* than death metal. Period.

*exceptions prevails.

Written by 3rdWorld on 31.10.2016 at 12:49

Fair enough, if it reminds you of mathcore but that alone is not sufficient to categorize the album into mathcore or even point them out as having elements of the genre. By your logic, we may as well call Fleshgod Apocalypse classical music and Billy Cobham techdeath.

I never categorized it as a mathcore, I just had mathcore as representing a particular extreme for rock music (the opposite extreme being drone metal, and then avant-garde rock finds other extremes) and as some techdeth reaching for that extreme, and said that particular band fits in that category, and it sounds more like mathcore than typical techdeth. Anyway, Fleshgod Apocalypse definitely takes directly from classical music, would you not agree? Obviously they aren't actually classical music, but as far as techdeth goes they approach it.

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 31.10.2016 at 15:47

Exactly what Joe wrote.

After all comparisons, digging into grassroots level of sounds which unfurls a particular genre, castigation and plethora of examples via YouTube; all now has come back to ground to this thing-Metalcore isn't extreme* than death metal. Period.

*exceptions prevails.

If we are going by roots metalcore is more extreme as it is based on taking the most extreme forms of hardcore punk mixed with extreme metal, it's just that metalcore has completely abandoned it's roots as a whole, while death metal continues to elaborate on it's roots.

Written by Ganondox on 01.11.2016 at 00:35

~ Total ramblings ~

1. Mathcore =/= extreme end of rock/metal.

2. FA =/= Classical techdeath. Just techdeath awkwardly mixed with separately composed orchestrations. Metal directly inspired by classical music would be neo-classical metal. Googling it or listening to what others suggest and post here would do wonders for a start!

Written by 3rdWorld on 01.11.2016 at 09:54

Written by Ganondox on 01.11.2016 at 00:35

~ Total ramblings ~

1. Mathcore =/= extreme end of rock/metal.

2. FA =/= Classical techdeath. Just techdeath awkwardly mixed with separately composed orchestrations. Metal directly inspired by classical music would be neo-classical metal. Googling it or listening to what others suggest and post here would do wonders for a start!

It's AN extreme end of rock/metal. Precisely the extreme of the aggressive end which you insisted wasn't actually extreme for some stupid reason.

There are multiple different ways classical music can influence something. Neoclassical metal takes melodic structures from classical, but otherwise has nothing to do with it. Meanwhile progressive metal takes more of the structural elements, which symphonic metal takes more of the instrumentation. FA takes some influence in both the progressive and symphonic manner (and it's actually techdeath, unlike all actual neoclassical metal I know of, though apparently some people classify FA as well as some other techdeath bands as neoclassical metal). I know what I'm talking about, you're just wrong on several technicalities, and after that just can't except other opinions.

Lol, this thread has gone off topic enough.

For the sake of being on topic, I'll just say power and viking are the ones I despise most when taking into consideration the ratio of good to utter crap albums. I am speaking from my experience from 2013 where I just went head on and listened to everything. So I'm most wary of those two. Ambient black recently is also another genre with just an overabundance of bands and has become easily oversaturated.

Said it already, I hate power metal and brutal death metal the most. I like the irony, though: my all time favorite death metal record is a brutal death metal album.Guess the name

Written by mz on 03.11.2016 at 01:56

Said it already, I hate power metal and brutal death metal the most. I like the irony, though: my all time favorite death metal record is a brutal death metal album.Guess the name

No frigging idea.

Guessing its not a brutal death metal album.

Written by mz on 03.11.2016 at 01:56

Said it already, I hate power metal and brutal death metal the most. I like the irony, though: my all time favorite death metal record is a brutal death metal album.Guess the name

Contradicion or Pleasure Dome?

Written by mz on 03.11.2016 at 01:56

Said it already, I hate power metal and brutal death metal the most. I like the irony, though: my all time favorite death metal record is a brutal death metal album.Guess the name

Destroyers of all?

Written by Guest on 03.11.2016 at 10:58

Destroyers of all?

Yeah, it is obvious