Not to shock anyone but I agree with Lit. here. Celtic Frost's Monotheist and post career vastly outweighs the quality of anything that came before it. Obviously they were influential in the early days, no one can take that away from them, but in hind-site it was never very good and belongs with Hellhammer and Venom with regards to quality (though Celtic Frost were certainly the best of the three). Saying it's "generally well regarded by the wider metal community" is hardly an argument even worth typing out, imo.

Written by deadone on 25.04.2014 at 03:30

Only in your opinion - most metal heads would disagree. Celtic Frost, Venom and Kreator's early output are generally well regarded by the wider metal community.

Monotheist was awful IMO by the way.

I feel like the need to say that it's only his opinion is redundant. Of course it's his opinion, and his arguing is simply him justifying his opinion. I'm really tired of seeing tension and comments like "A band could shit in your mouth and you would find it good" which are completely unnecessary, and imply that his opinion is invalid. Just because a person dislikes a band, does not mean they will deny their influence. I can't stand Venom, and I find Celtic Frost to be absurdly overrated, but I would never deny the weight these two bands carry in the development of metal. Disagreement is fine, but don't jump into a discussion to stir up controversy.

I must've entered in some sord of Dimensional Warpgate and landed in an alternate reality where anything Celtic Frost did before Cold Lake was actually bad....

Written by raveneffect on 25.04.2014 at 03:56

I must've entered in some sord of Dimensional Warpgate and landed in an alternate reality where anything Celtic Frost did before Cold Lake was actually bad....

Admittedly, I do enjoy Morbid Tales a bit, but I've always found Celtic Frost to be either bland or simply bad :/ Really not my style of music I guess.

I feel the same way about Dream Theater and I dont ago around calling Awake and Metropolis bad.

but that's just me. I'm old fashioned.

Written by Alex F on 25.04.2014 at 03:53

Just because a person dislikes a band, does not mean they will deny their influence. I can't stand Venom, and I find Celtic Frost to be absurdly overrated, but I would never deny the weight these two bands carry in the development of metal. Disagreement is fine, but don't jump into a discussion to stir up controversy.

I don't think anyone argues against the fact Venom, CF, etc... had a big influence, it's pretty much interiorised by everyone. Also, I doubt this album is overrated, as most of the pioneers of the genre are said to be. Just take a look around the forums and you'll see a shit-ton of people criticizing (oh and Hellhammer/CF was regarded as pure shit for a couple of years by "the metal community" so..) and spitting "overrated" all the time. Of course, if you're into OS thrash/first wave BM/etc... you won't think that way.

One might like the album or not, but I think a lot of people consider it "overrated" simply coz it is regarded as a seminal album. Muscially it's pretty much perfect for what it represents in history.

There's a difference between calling a band overrated and thinking said album is bad (which I'm doing) and denying it had a legacy and influenced a number of bands (which I'm not doing).

I don't like Hellhammer, Venom, Celtic Frost, Kreator, whatever and think they're overrated in terms of music quality (except for Monotheist obviously), but in terms of the legacy they left in the metal community, that's a whole other boat and something I'm not stupid enough to argue against. As Vombatus said: Celtic Frost were never totally 100% well-regarded by the metal community in the first place (except by the so-or-so bands that covered their songs and did what they did but better), and still aren't totally so (as evident by the line of 6s following my comment). Simply put: While Monotheist isn't as influencial to To Mega Therion or Morbid Tales, it's still the superior album quality-wise. So deadone can take his know-nothing-know-it-all syndrome and shove it where the North Winds don't blow.

Define superior album quality-wise.

Written by deadone on 25.04.2014 at 08:07

You don't like old stuff (as in recorded pre-1990) much anyhow. That's where the guts of this discussion is.

Even if the song writing, quality of composition and quality of performance was superior, you'd guys still hate/dislike it due to it's 1980s production values or 1980s stylistic values.

The guts of this discussion is located within an egregious logical fallacy? Only where you're concerned. Apparently your answer to everything is located within broad and unsubstantiated generalisations aimed toward the listeners rather than the music. Pretty much a theme with you; someone makes a comment on the music, you attack them personally. You dislike a well regarded album, you cast aspersions toward the fanbase. Let's ignore the fact I enjoy the likes of Bathory, Mercyful Fate, Sabbat (both UK and JPN, in fact), Tormentor, Possessed and so on, because that wouldn't fit into your neat little package of how well you know people and their taste. It saves you having to deal with the possibility that someone could dislike Celtic Frost / x band because of the way Celtic Frost / x band sound, not the era they come from.

Anyway, let's not derail yet another topic while deadone fumbles around trying to put everyone's taste in boxes marked "invalid." Let's, for once, try to stick to the music and accept that not everyone is going to think Celtic Frost's legacy is all that it's cracked up to be, influence aside (which was rarely in dispute anyway). To many influence is not an automatic freecard to quality. Sometimes the progeny that bands spawn is where the true value lies. People shouldn't have to feel compelled to enjoy it for that reason, only have a decently educated opinion that understands the history and context of the band. I'd personally have a huge amount of disrespect if someone bases their tastes on a band's influence and legacy. I'd have to say grow a personality and like or dislike it for the right reasons and stop kidding yourself. It's a bit tiresome seeing people attacked for not auto-loving something that is legendarily well regarded, especially when people then go on to try and rationalise a whole spectrum of taste based on it.

But yeah, new CF / Triptykon > old CF. It sounds better, it looks better, it fucks better.

I think Triptykon is better than anything CF has ever done, but thats just wrong to compare since the style shifted so much that It's like comparing oranges to apples.

dem applez

Written by deadone on 25.04.2014 at 08:07

Quote:
While Monotheist isn't as influencial to To Mega Therion or Morbid Tales, it's still the superior album quality-wise.

Quality wise?
So now Little Angry Man is the arbiter of quality.

Does one really need to write "in my opinion" every single time to not get a shitty respond like this one?
Nope.

Written by raveneffect on 25.04.2014 at 17:02

I think Triptykon is better than anything CF has ever done, but thats just wrong to compare since the style shifted so much that It's like comparing oranges to apples.

dem applez

Triptykon was effectively a continuation of Monotheist. Granted, Monotheist is vastly different than anything before it, but it's still under the Celtic Frost name.

Well, its the same thing for Katatonia and Anathema, comparing the old and new.

Written by raveneffect on 25.04.2014 at 17:42

Well, its the same thing for Katatonia and Anathema, comparing the old and new.

That's easy, the new eras blow (well, after 'Viva Emptiness' Katatonia suck, quite a bit earlier for Anathema).

But I digress.

Yep, that's the post I was looking from you. Well played.

Written by raveneffect on 25.04.2014 at 17:46

Yep, that's the post I was looking from you. Well played.

Don't know what you mean, sorry.

Written by deadone on 25.04.2014 at 08:07

I'm not surprised people like yourself and IJOOE don't like it. You don't like old stuff (as in recorded pre-1990) much anyhow. That's where the guts of this discussion is.
Even if the song writing, quality of composition and quality of performance was superior, you'd guys still hate/dislike it due to it's 1980s production values or 1980s stylistic values.

That's just about the stupidest argument you could make. Age has nothing to do with quality of music (unless it comes to originality, however originality does not dictate quality either...). Joe loves plenty of pre-1990 music (as do I), however that is irrelevant. You say "even if the song writing, etc... was superior" as if that can even remotely be objective. It can't, and that's where I think your logic fails. You can't recognize that others will have personal opinions, and you attack their character and/or validity to prove that your opinion carries more merit in certain topics (ergo pre-1990 stuff).
To Mega Therion is a vastly overrated album IN MY OPINION (which should not even have to be stated), despite the massive influence it has had on countless bands.

Written by Guest on 25.04.2014 at 04:46

There's a difference between calling a band overrated and thinking said album is bad (which I'm doing) and denying it had a legacy and influenced a number of bands (which I'm not doing).

I don't like Hellhammer, Venom, Celtic Frost, Kreator, whatever and think they're overrated in terms of music quality (except for Monotheist obviously), but in terms of the legacy they left in the metal community, that's a whole other boat and something I'm not stupid enough to argue against. As Vombatus said: Celtic Frost were never totally 100% well-regarded by the metal community in the first place (except by the so-or-so bands that covered their songs and did what they did but better), and still aren't totally so (as evident by the line of 6s following my comment). Simply put: While Monotheist isn't as influencial to To Mega Therion or Morbid Tales, it's still the superior album quality-wise. So deadone can take his know-nothing-know-it-all syndrome and shove it where the North Winds don't blow.

Theres that 'overrated" cliche once again. Its not your cup of tea and that's quite alright. This is not pointing to anybody in particular just to be clear. People who were not around at the time of ANY album considered to be a seminal album in whatever genre generally just do not realize the impact of said album upon initial release. There was almost NOTHING you could compare the first few Celtic Frost to at that time. So what if they were not some technically complex prodigies. They kick started two genres at the least. Only five years after 'Circle of the Tyrants" was first released Obituary was covering the song on 1990's 'Cause of Death". Its not in any way "overrated" when after all these years later CF are STILL influencing younger musicians due in large part to very well known and respected bands citing the impact and influence CF had on the whole scene(Dave Grohl who doesn't even play metal had Tom G on his Probot project). You can't tell me the quality of the music is any worse than all those early black metal albums. Nothing to compare CF to when your among the first handful of bands taking things up two notches than has been done before. If people simply don't like it and that's ok. To each their own. I am not asking anybody to. I love music and give credit where due even if I do not like it.

FFS learn to read.. For JOOE old stuff does NOT suck, just SOME old stuff sucks.

I would say hellhammer/Celtic Frost/Venom suck donkey ballsdespite their influence. And yes I was around when all their debuts hit and NO at the time they didn't have any impact at all. Only a couple of years later did they start to influence bands. hell celtic frost/hellhammer were a huge laughing stock at the time. 99.9% of all metallers really did not take them seriously at all. My finest moment was seeing Celtic Frost being booed off the stage in 1987

Written by deadone on 26.04.2014 at 06:40

All I see from IJOOE and his buddy Lit is old stuff sucks.

We're allowed to have opinions. I get sick of these hipster kids bagging out mine for not liking Deathspell Shitega o whatever reThrash band is aping Exodus or whatever. So it's nice to give some back.

Just read what Marcel posted for a response to this. If we really did offend you this much with the Deathspell Omega thread then I'm sorry, but you, more than anyone else on this website, need to learn to respect other people's opinions.

Written by deadone on 26.04.2014 at 06:40

We're allowed to have opinions. I get sick of these hipster kids bagging out mine for not liking Deathspell Shitega o whatever reThrash band is aping Exodus or whatever. So it's nice to give some back.

So you hate bands just because we hate bands you like, and so you decide to bash bands and albums that are actually good and sometimes new just because you have a petty need to get even and crave attention?

How utterly, utterly expected.

Well well, after all this nice little debate, I think it's safe to assume that Celtic Frost is great and not overrated.

Still Into The Pandemonium and Morbid Tales are much better (and their best), though this one is very good stuff too.

Written by Guest on 26.04.2014 at 18:52

So you hate bands just because we hate bands you like, and so you decide to bash bands and albums that are actually good and sometimes new just because you have a petty need to get even and crave attention?

How utterly, utterly expected.

So petty in fact he gave us a nice mention on his profile page

Please, stop this madness.

Madness? This is Sparta!!
Okay I stopped

Written by Guest on 26.04.2014 at 22:45

So petty in fact he gave us a nice mention on his profile page

Why he so mean to me, man? I was minding my damn business saying this album is overrated and Monotheist is better and he be getting all petty and insulting me and why don't he like me man? I ain't done nothing wrong.

To be honest, I think that calling an influential band/album overrated is not fair and thus, I agree with deadone in this sense. On the other hand, attacking other people and accusing them to go crazy about something not based on the actual music is not only false, but also disrespectful. I, for one, consider myself as someone with more interest in the modern metal rather than classic era metal. Most of old albums I've heard do not do much for me but this does not mean that I dislike those albums just because they are old. For instance, old sounding death metal is appeasing me a lot lately. On the other hand, I really love classic era prog rock and prefer it over modern incarnations.
People have more profound reason to like/dislike sth than just the time the album was recorded.
PS: I have not heard this album yet.

As much as I love pointing out the fallacies in Deadone's logic, we do desperately need to steer this thread back on the topic of To Mega Therion.

The album art's nice. Good old Giger.

(I'm sure this'll all get deleted at some point anyway).

This was fun.