Over-Production on studio albums
Posts: 82
Visited by: 106 users
Im a big fan of production i think albums need good production to produce the right sound... But what happens when an album is over-produced (I find this with alot of roadrunner album... and im not saying this to bash Roadrunner, god knows they get it enough elsewhere) But iv noticed over recent months the negative effect of over-producing an album...
I find it takes away from atmosphere esspecially, And in extreme cases it makes albums sound almost robotic and unhuman... I'll offer examples of this so you can decide for yourself... Feel free to add your own
Nightwish - Once (Its a great album and i love it start to finnish, But its just so perfect, it almost sounds robotic, the stmosphere on this album was quite good though so i cant really offer alot of negatives on it.
Opeth - Ghost Reveries (Another album i love... But once again its lost alot of atmosphere compared to the likes of Still Life and earlier opeth albums. And once again, the musicianship sounds so robotic, perfectly performed, with no noticable flaws)
Satyricon - Now Diabolicle (This is not to bash Satyricon at all, i like this album dispite it being a bm sellout... But compare to every other Satyricon album this has by far the worst atmospere to it... However i must admit the vocals were very catchy)
So production is important IMO, but producer need to find the ballance...
Other reasons for critisising over-production is that it covers up how good a band really is...
What do you guys think?
Are there any other instances where over-production has damaged what is otherwise a brilliant album?
I find it takes away from atmosphere esspecially, And in extreme cases it makes albums sound almost robotic and unhuman... I'll offer examples of this so you can decide for yourself... Feel free to add your own
Nightwish - Once (Its a great album and i love it start to finnish, But its just so perfect, it almost sounds robotic, the stmosphere on this album was quite good though so i cant really offer alot of negatives on it.
Opeth - Ghost Reveries (Another album i love... But once again its lost alot of atmosphere compared to the likes of Still Life and earlier opeth albums. And once again, the musicianship sounds so robotic, perfectly performed, with no noticable flaws)
Satyricon - Now Diabolicle (This is not to bash Satyricon at all, i like this album dispite it being a bm sellout... But compare to every other Satyricon album this has by far the worst atmospere to it... However i must admit the vocals were very catchy)
So production is important IMO, but producer need to find the ballance...
Other reasons for critisising over-production is that it covers up how good a band really is...
What do you guys think?
Are there any other instances where over-production has damaged what is otherwise a brilliant album?
Poll
Do you find over proroduced albums are damaged by the production
Very much so
19
A little
18
It Helps an album a little
11
Production makes music flowless
7
Has no affect
5
Total votes: 60
| 4look4rd The Sasquatch Posts: 834 From: USA  |
it helps a lot, but it kills the band when they performe it live... Take Angra for example, Edu's voice is flawless on studio, but he is not half as good live! He totally ruins the song
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| jupitreas hi-fi / lo-life Posts: 6659 From: Poland  |
Its a pretty simple thing really - production needs to be APPROPRIATE to the music. An over-produced punk album will never sound as good as something raw recorded on a four track, while a Nine Inch Nails album would be total crap were it to have production that is not perfect in every way. A producer is in many ways another musician in the band these days. He needs to recognize what the strengths of a band are and use production to highlight these strenghts. Another thing - I dont understand what the big deal is if a band doesnt sound the same live as they do on a record? An album is forever and a band should not cut themselves short by limiting themselves to making songs that they can recreate live. In fact, it can often be interesting to hear the band play a song differently live than how they do it on a record...
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| Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck Posts: 40071 From: The Netherlands  |
Written by jupitreas on 04.07.2007 at 01:02 Totally agreed. I always get extremely annoyed when a band live sounds note and sound perfect to what they do on their albums. If they do that I might as well have stayed home and put on their cds. I usually wanna be surprised musically live, different solos in songs, jam sessions, etc.
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.) 05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996 
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| ToMegaTherion Posts: 718 From: Australia  |
It definitely has an effect, Albums certainly need production, but there comes a point once the sound through the recorder is right that the musicians MUST take control of the music.
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| Haddonfield Chucky's Bride Posts: 1993 From: UK  |
Too much production kills an album, there are many bands that are decent but sound wrong. Overproduction should be left to shitty pop music not for rock or metal. However, I also believe an album shouldn't be underproduced.
----  "Seasons don't fear the reaper. Nor do the wind, the sun and the rain (we can be like they are)."
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| MeloDeathViking Posts: 514 From: USA  |
Written by jupitreas on 04.07.2007 at 01:02 Jupitreas is 100% right on this one. Some bands just need more production than others, it doesn't make that band not good, it just means the sound they have needs a nice polish. Some bands actually hurt themselves by trying to over produce their albums when not necessary, take Against Me! for example. They're first 2 albums are brilliant. After that it was all down hill, for me, it was because of the production. They are a band that really needs that raw sound. Wintersun on the other hand (for those of you that like Wintersun) would sound terrible without the large amounts of production (Marcel, feel free to insert a comment about how terrible they sound even with all of the production lol)
---- "I am not superstitious, but I'm a little 'stitious." - Michael Scott
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| Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck Posts: 40071 From: The Netherlands |
Written by MeloDeathViking on 12.10.2009 at 21:46 No I won't, because a band such as Wintersun is actually helped by a very clear production.
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.) 05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
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| MeloDeathViking Posts: 514 From: USA |
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 12.10.2009 at 21:50  I don't know what to say, you kind of complimented Wintersun, my whole world just shattered!
---- "I am not superstitious, but I'm a little 'stitious." - Michael Scott
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| Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck Posts: 40071 From: The Netherlands |
Written by MeloDeathViking on 12.10.2009 at 21:59 Sorry, won't do it again. But imo they play the sort of music that is helped by a clear sound that accentuates everything. But that sort of production still won't make me like Wintersun though 
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.) 05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
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| MeloDeathViking Posts: 514 From: USA |
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 12.10.2009 at 22:01 I agree like I said above, I'll admit, if they didn't have top-notch production, I probably wouldn't like them, that's just how they are. Although this discussion as give me a new life goal, and that is to make you love Wintersun. I will find a way, and for my efforts, I will win the nobel peace prize  .
---- "I am not superstitious, but I'm a little 'stitious." - Michael Scott
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| FOOCK Nam Posts: 3571 From: Vietnam  |
When I found Children of Bodom with the Follow The Reaper, I feel it is so great. But then one day I found live in Tokyo Warheart sitll by COB, damn it is so awesome, and I realize two things almost sound from production and live always are different, especially the voice. From the COB example: voice is not good but instrument live sound is good, well though it depends on the musical characteristic of different bands. So, for the topic, OF COURSE, if no good production then the bands are hard to exist. 3rd from above to below, Voted.
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| Ellrohir Heaven Knight Posts: 8662 From: Czech Republic  |
I think it depends on each album...cannot say generally "good"/"bad"...
---- My rest seems now calm and deep Finally I got my dead man sleep 
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| Lord_Regnier Posts: 1469 From: Canada  |
I think most metal albums are over-produced nowadays. It sounds sterile, synthesized, manufactured, etc. In other terms, it often lacks soul and sounds quite boring. It is a problem that is generalized to all metal genres. The only genre that still escapes over-production reasonably well these days is Black Metal. Imo, metal is not supposed to sound 'too well'. Overproduction causes the sound to loose its rough edges. Personally, I prefer when metal sounds not polished or even a bit shitty.
---- "Why would we fear death, when life is so much more frightening?"
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| BitterCOld The Ancient One Posts: 15250  |
Jupe stated it about as well as i possibly could have. some bands need to sound crystal clear and polished to deliver their message, others would have the entire feel/atmosphere of their music destroyed by it.
---- get the fuck off my lawn. Beer Bug Virus Spotify Playlist crafted by Nikarg and I. Feel free to tune in and add some pertinent metal tunes!
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| FOOCK Nam Posts: 3571 From: Vietnam |
Written by Lord_Regnier on 12.10.2009 at 23:39 Explain more what you mean in the bold and italic text ? Thanks,  .Shitty-and-not-polish, if you listen to some non-well-produced like shitty stuff of Mayhem, you will see why production is important for metal, even to me bigger as for music.
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| Lord_Regnier Posts: 1469 From: Canada |
Written by FOOCK Nam on 13.10.2009 at 01:36 "it often lacks soul"= the music sounds emotionless, fails to give me any feeling, leaves me completely indifferent, etc.
---- "Why would we fear death, when life is so much more frightening?"
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| Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck Posts: 40071 From: The Netherlands |
Written by Lord_Regnier on 13.10.2009 at 01:48 Yep, just lsiten to loads of modern power metal or progressive metal or of old genres glam metal... and that is what you mean I guess
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.) 05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
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| Derwood Posts: 511 From: Canada  |
I tend to listen to different genres/bands for different reasons. Over produced music does lack soul and it really harms bands that communicate emotionally through their music. However, there are times when I enjoy listening to virtuosity for the sake of virtuosity (read "wankery" for those who don't share my proclivity here). For bands like that, generally in either progressive or technical sub-genres, I want crystal-clear "hear every note and the fingers moving on the strings type" production.
---- You can't fight evil with a macaroni duck!
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| Lord_Regnier Posts: 1469 From: Canada |
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.10.2009 at 02:19 I don't want to appear like someone who wants to bash Powermetal one more time but yes, when you compare old PM albums to modern ones, the term over-production takes all its meaning. It's so polished nowadays there's no rough edge left and it often sounds close to commercial music. It doesn't have the underground touch I like from metal music. Many PM albums don't sound like metal, from my point of view. Maybe it's because I'm an old metal listener who got used to more poorly produced albums during the 80s and 90s, but that's the way I feel. Modern Death Metal also suffers from overproduction rather often these days. However, it doesn't bother me at all, as I've never been a DM fan. I like fast and aggressive music but I don't see the point in music that is not melodic, so I always hated Brutal Death because, imo, it's plain brutality without melody. Also, I hate growls.
---- "Why would we fear death, when life is so much more frightening?"
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| Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck Posts: 40071 From: The Netherlands |
Written by Lord_Regnier on 13.10.2009 at 03:32 I think it does have to do with being an old listener who got used to more poorly produced albums during the 80s and 90s, as well. That's why I uusally do NOT like re-recorded classics and totally remixed and remastered albums (exceptions can be found of course) Quote: ABSOLUTELY true. moderndeath metal is usually way to clinical and lacks the sould and emotion it had before. The rough edges have gone. FUCK just put on Slaughter's Strappado and then the latest Dying Fetus. All atmosphere has gone. Yes, Dying Fetus does sound brutal and loud, but that's it. No more true feeling. Btw, it's not only the sound that makes that happen it is also the cpopy pasting which is done with protools nowadays.
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.) 05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
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| Lord_Regnier Posts: 1469 From: Canada |
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.10.2009 at 03:40 Yeah, this Protool thing makes music sounding artificial. As for Death Metal, I've never been a fan, but I like to hear some old school DM from time to time. Old school DM had groove, which is something modern DM cruelly lacks.
---- "Why would we fear death, when life is so much more frightening?"
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| Marcel Hubregtse Grumpy Old Fuck Posts: 40071 From: The Netherlands |
Written by Lord_Regnier on 13.10.2009 at 03:45  finally someone understands. DM used to be all about the groove (even the then more brutal ones) whereas now it is just about brutality and totally midless prog wanking on the instruments it seems.That's why I love a new band such as Hail Of Bullets which is all about the old school groove feel of DM (but then again all the members are of course old school DMers)
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.) 05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
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| jupitreas hi-fi / lo-life Posts: 6659 From: Poland |
Written by MeloDeathViking on 12.10.2009 at 21:46 Is New Wave really that bad? IMO its a modern classic, dont think the band is that hurt by the clear production, the lyrical and songwriting genius still shines thru.
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| Deadmeat Necrobutcher Posts: 2437 From: Greece  |
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.07.2007 at 17:00 why the fuck the metal bands don't do that? i was always wondering that too... it's a shame imo. even if they changed a note or even if they repeated a chorus the crowd would react greatly. it would be magnificent if a band liked to do that...
---- Υou've sold your human essence to the cold world of dead and empty things... You're SOLD!
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| MeloDeathViking Posts: 514 From: USA |
Written by jupitreas on 13.10.2009 at 10:28 I was just never really able to get into anything after As the Eternal Cowboy. Searching for a Fomer Clarity just didn't have the raw energy that made me love the first two albums so much (in my opinion it was this way because of the production), which in turn, made me not check out New Wave. I'll have to give it a listen though. I'm always willing to give bands a second chance, and they are still the same guys that put out two of my favorite albums.
---- "I am not superstitious, but I'm a little 'stitious." - Michael Scott
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| Syk myspace/bonerama Posts: 1504 From: New Zealand  |
Written by FOOCK Nam on 12.10.2009 at 22:25Just hope ya realize that the appearance (order) of poll options can change when their order of votes changes. Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 04.07.2007 at 17:00This used to be a big thing I would look forward to a long time ago, when Cream was more prominent and common in my listening habits, but kind of forgot about as I've been unable to play my electric guitar / with other people. Can you give examples of extreme metal bands with which you've experienced this?Written by jupitreas on 04.07.2007 at 01:02Totally agreed. I always get extremely annoyed when a band live sounds note and sound perfect to what they do on their albums. If they do that I might as well have stayed home and put on their cds. I usually wanna be surprised musically live, different solos in songs, jam sessions, etc.
---- death ? thrash ? death/doom/prog ? Hail Zoldon! he's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays
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| BitterCOld The Ancient One Posts: 15250 |
Count me in amongst the whiners about new dm. i do miss the groove (Obituary, Bolt Thrower especially) of the old era dm. i have a general indifference to DM nowadays. i might check out the occasional album (Behemoth), but for the most part i don't bother. Behemoth showcases pretty much everything i need in modern DM. it's brutal, it's fast, it's crystalline production, so at one point it is amazing to listen to... then on the other end, it seems so clinical that i find it ultimately lacking what i like most about the genre. the raw soul and groove of the old shit. i don't care how good or brutal todays bands are, i honestly don't think they will ever match what was already done 15-20 years ago. partially because of the limited scope of DM (doesn't seem to be as open to exploration as other genres), and just the feel. was on a thrash kick recently, and i think half the reason i still enjoy some old thrash so much was the same reasons as DM... the less-than-stellar production on a lot of albums gave it a raw, visceral feel.
---- get the fuck off my lawn. Beer Bug Virus Spotify Playlist crafted by Nikarg and I. Feel free to tune in and add some pertinent metal tunes!
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| Evil Chip Posts: 505 From: Chile  |
It depends of the band for me. I like to hear all the little details in the phones while listening to progressive rock or metal, so i can distinguish the bass and what kind of cymbal is the drummer hitting. But for other styles like doom I like a simple production since it stands better for the mood of that music. Well its more like a matter of tastes than a question of whats right and whats wrong.
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| Zombie94 Posts: 458 From: Ireland  |
Muhammed Suicmez from Necrophagist put it best when he said that it's all about making the best sounding album possible. To me if I'm going to pay money for an album, that's what I expect. That said, a squeaky clean production is not going to work well for every style. It works fantastically on Megadeth's Endgame, and with any band that emphasises technicality. So I like clean production on a lot of death metal (brutal and technical in particular) and stuff that uses symphonic elements. On the other hand you have examples of muddier production that work great with gritty music e.g. Autopsy and other old school death metal in that vein, very raw black metal like early Darkthrone. Hell, even Ace Of Spades by Motorhead...the muddy production on the title track off that album is what makes that great guitar riff imo! However I'm not a fan of the hating from some older metalheads towards everything with new school production. Fenriz has some pretty strong opinions about this, to the point where he refuses to listen to practically anything with a modern-sounding production or triggered drums. To me those people are refusing to let go of the 80s, and perhaps somewhat blinded by nostalgia. Anyway, I believe there's room for both approaches to production, depending on what's best for bringing out the qualities of the album. /rant
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