Written by Guest on 02.01.2014 at 00:04
why?

Different types of exposure. He pointed out how Black Sabbath were only referred to as heavy metal, there wasn't a lot of press for metal bands, metal mags were a rarity, and he thinks the reclassification of doom happened recently when in fact many Europeans (as Marcel pointed out) were already pretty invested in the doom scene and the metal bands there were given far more exposure.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 01.01.2014 at 22:36

Written by Troy Killjoy on 01.01.2014 at 19:15

I'd like to see what Marcel has to say about that.

I just shook my head in total bewilderment when reading the post above yours.

Maybe he's speaking from an Australian perspective but what he says is totally wrong when speaking from a European perspective.

I'd say so.

I don't think it's a good idea to generalize, an Australian perspective is more varied than you guys give it credit for. However in this case I think it's generally understood here that Black Sabbath is an archetypical heavy metal band, the doom aspect to their music isn't nearly as significant a factor. Though those more into doom metal would likely have a thing or two to say about that.

That said, I have little idea of how Black Sabbath were viewed back in the day.

I wasn't trying to imply Australians were/are in any way inferior in their "metal awareness" so to speak, just that Europe's metal scene was more firmly established and therefore they kind of had a leg up on the rest of the world in terms of classifying and defining new genres as they came, before those styles of music had spread across the globe.

Yeah those fucking aussies don't know shit

Written by Troy Killjoy on 02.01.2014 at 10:18

I wasn't trying to imply Australians were/are in any way inferior in their "metal awareness" so to speak, just that Europe's metal scene was more firmly established and therefore they kind of had a leg up on the rest of the world in terms of classifying and defining new genres as they came, before those styles of music had spread across the globe.

Well that's fair enough, I imagine globalisation would have had quite an effect on the way metal is classified in various parts of the world. As it spreads overseas and the broader its horizons get, it may not retain the same cohesive definitions it once held in its original setting. Its an opening up of metal to a variety of perspectives which often lead to new ideas musically, as well as how we define things by sub-genres.

Written by Guest on 02.01.2014 at 10:55

Yeah those fucking aussies don't know shit

Bastard, don't make me swim over your way!

^ But this means the location could influence the tags back then, but doesn't mean that they still can, right?

Written by deadone on 02.01.2014 at 16:17

It's all so ordered now.

Indeed. Nowadays heavy is heavy and doom is doom.
It's true that the magazines didn't consider Black Sabbath doom back then, but nowadays, where the genres are well consolidated, I guess there's no mistake to say it about their earlier albums...

Written by R'Vannith on 02.01.2014 at 15:02

Written by Guest on 02.01.2014 at 10:55

Yeah those fucking aussies don't know shit

Bastard, don't make me swim over your way!

He's probably over here with rest of his countrymen.

Written by M C Vice on 03.01.2014 at 05:08


He's probably over here with rest of his countrymen.

no i decided not to follow the sheep, it is hard not to though with soo many sheep over here. I have lost many fellow sheep to your country

Written by Guest on 03.01.2014 at 05:26

Written by M C Vice on 03.01.2014 at 05:08


He's probably over here with rest of his countrymen.

no i decided not to follow the sheep, it is hard not to though with soo many sheep over here. I have lost many fellow sheep to your country

I'll resist the NZ/sheep jokes. Too obvious and old.

Written by M C Vice on 03.01.2014 at 09:15


I'll resist the NZ/sheep jokes. Too obvious and old.

thank fuck for that!

A good discussion here about the way metal genre definitions have evolved and changed over the years. Heh, Metallica during the Ride The Lightning era used to have these business cards that said "power metal" on them though Metallica, by today's standards, is a far cry from stuff that is generally considered power metal.

The only reason Europe seemed to be more "ahead" on the genre-definition game is because Europe is where metal has always been the most popular (save for the late 80s here in the US) so most of the genre definitions originated there. Were they any more right than places like Japan, Australia or South America? Heck no. The European standard has just become the most accepted standard because it was the shepard and everyone simply followed - more circumstance than raw knowledge, really.

Written by Guest on 15.01.2014 at 15:21

A good discussion here about the way metal genre definitions have evolved and changed over the years. Heh, Metallica during the Ride The Lightning era used to have these business cards that said "power metal" on them though Metallica, by today's standards, is a far cry from stuff that is generally considered power metal.

Nope, that wasn't during the Ride The Lightning era, that was during the Power Metal demo days, so even before No Life 'Till Leather and before Cliff was part of the band

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 15.01.2014 at 15:54

Written by Guest on 15.01.2014 at 15:21

A good discussion here about the way metal genre definitions have evolved and changed over the years. Heh, Metallica during the Ride The Lightning era used to have these business cards that said "power metal" on them though Metallica, by today's standards, is a far cry from stuff that is generally considered power metal.

Nope, that wasn't during the Ride The Lightning era, that was during the Power Metal demo days, so even before No Life 'Till Leather and before Cliff was part of the band

Thank you for correcting me! I have a book that had some information/photos within it and I thought it was during the Ride The Lightning days but my memory has obviously failed me. So some Metallica members had a demo called Power Metal? Was it actually under the name Metallica? For some reason I thought Metallica only had one demo, the famed No Life 'Till Leather that you mentioned.

Written by Guest on 15.01.2014 at 18:42

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 15.01.2014 at 15:54

Written by Guest on 15.01.2014 at 15:21

A good discussion here about the way metal genre definitions have evolved and changed over the years. Heh, Metallica during the Ride The Lightning era used to have these business cards that said "power metal" on them though Metallica, by today's standards, is a far cry from stuff that is generally considered power metal.

Nope, that wasn't during the Ride The Lightning era, that was during the Power Metal demo days, so even before No Life 'Till Leather and before Cliff was part of the band

Thank you for correcting me! I have a book that had some information/photos within it and I thought it was during the Ride The Lightning days but my memory has obviously failed me. So some Metallica members had a demo called Power Metal? Was it actually under the name Metallica? For some reason I thought Metallica only had one demo, the famed No Life 'Till Leather that you mentioned.

They had a few Pre-Kill 'em All demos. Here is a Wiki page I just found. Interesting, I'd like to get my hands on the Ride the Lightning demos...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metallica_demos

Quote:

Written by Silent Jay on 15.01.2014 at 18:55

Thank you for correcting me! I have a book that had some information/photos within it and I thought it was during the Ride The Lightning days but my memory has obviously failed me. So some Metallica members had a demo called Power Metal? Was it actually under the name Metallica? For some reason I thought Metallica only had one demo, the famed No Life 'Till Leather that you mentioned.

They had a few Pre-Kill 'em All demos. Here is a Wiki page I just found. Interesting, I'd like to get my hands on the Ride the Lightning demos...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metallica_demos

Cool, thanks for the information! It looks like a lot of the demos were never officially released/circulated which is probably why I was only familiar with No Life 'Till Leather.

Written by Guest on 15.01.2014 at 15:21

The European standard has just become the most accepted standard because it was the shepard and everyone simply followed - more circumstance than raw knowledge, really.

That's a good point, and I'd add that circumstance kind of lends itself to raw knowledge; the basic ideas which frame the European standard are a kind of raw knowledge that someone would pick up and accept pretty quickly if they were to have been a part of those circumstances. When metal was more narrowly confined to Europe, I imagine the circumstances there would have led people to agreement, rather than disagreement, in most cases at least.

But when you get more people involved (spread out of Europe and more perspectives etc) the tendency for disagreement and discussion increases, so those basic ideas of "raw knowledge" begin to be questioned, or at least looked at from a wider variety of viewpoints.

Written by Silent Jay on 15.01.2014 at 18:55

Written by Guest on 15.01.2014 at 18:42

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 15.01.2014 at 15:54

Written by Guest on 15.01.2014 at 15:21

A good discussion here about the way metal genre definitions have evolved and changed over the years. Heh, Metallica during the Ride The Lightning era used to have these business cards that said "power metal" on them though Metallica, by today's standards, is a far cry from stuff that is generally considered power metal.

Nope, that wasn't during the Ride The Lightning era, that was during the Power Metal demo days, so even before No Life 'Till Leather and before Cliff was part of the band

Thank you for correcting me! I have a book that had some information/photos within it and I thought it was during the Ride The Lightning days but my memory has obviously failed me. So some Metallica members had a demo called Power Metal? Was it actually under the name Metallica? For some reason I thought Metallica only had one demo, the famed No Life 'Till Leather that you mentioned.

They had a few Pre-Kill 'em All demos. Here is a Wiki page I just found. Interesting, I'd like to get my hands on the Ride the Lightning demos...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metallica_demos

That wiki page is totally bullshit since they only had two official demos. Namely Power Metal and No Lif Till Leather, For example Live Metal up Your Ass was a bootleg not a demo. ONce again this shows what sort of horseshit wiki has to offer.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.01.2014 at 03:42
That wiki page is totally bullshit since they only had two official demos. Namely Power Metal and No Lif Till Leather, For example Live Metal up Your Ass was a bootleg not a demo. ONce again this shows what sort of horseshit wiki has to offer.

Whooa, chill wigger. If you read the descriptions it will tell you which ones were officially released and which were not. Though strictly speaking none were 'official' releases anyway. See it as a list of recordings that were later bootlegged rather than actual releases.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 16.01.2014 at 03:42

That wiki page is totally bullshit since they only had two official demos. Namely Power Metal and No Lif Till Leather, For example Live Metal up Your Ass was a bootleg not a demo. ONce again this shows what sort of horseshit wiki has to offer.

Yes, it's kind of interesting because here at Metal Storm Metallica is listed as having two demos released (the two you mentioned) whereas the Metal Archives has only No Life 'Till Leather so it would seem there is some debate about whether Power Metal was an official release or not. It's difficult to say when it comes to demos because it seems they were often copied and bootlegged and then circulated in that format which certainly creates a haze in regards to something being an official release or not.

I will note that it seems there is no mention of the Power Metal demo on Metallica's official website, just No Life 'Till Leather ... interesting!

For anyone who received a notification due to their post being edited, it's because you don't know how to trim a goddamn quote.

Written by Silent Jay on 16.01.2014 at 04:03

Though strictly speaking none were 'official' releases anyway.

How is No Life Till Leather not an official release?
It was a self-released cassette tape which was sold by the band themselves.

Well if you wanna explore some really atmospheric doom try Shape of Despair's "Angels of Distress".

Basic listening: Candlemass, Trouble, Cathedral, Black Sabbath

must listen imo: 90s UK Death Doom: My Dying Bride, Anathema, Paradise Lost

after that you can go into funeral doom which you should listen to Doom:VS, Colosseum, Evoken, Esoteric...

Further listening: Saturnus, Warning, 40 Watt sun, Desire, Mourning Beloveth, Swallow The Sun and 50 others which I have no time to write down.

If you like stoner doom, check out Dopesmoker by Electric Wizard. Honestly I don't think it's their best album, but everyone seems to view it as a classic.

I'm just going to plant this song here. My personal Epic Doombaby!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzXjfZTfeTU

Written by wesbernhardt on 13.03.2014 at 06:42

If you like stoner doom, check out Dopesmoker by Electric Wizard. Honestly I don't think it's their best album, but everyone seems to view it as a classic.

There is no Electric Wizard album called Dopesmoker EW's is called Dopethrone. Sleep however does have an album called Dopesmoker

Written by Guest on 21.03.2014 at 22:19

...And it can hardly be called "doom."

Both Electric Wizard and Sleep are totally doom. Call it stoner doom or sludge doom, but doom it is. And both have quite a bit of Black Sabbath in their sound as well.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 22.03.2014 at 14:16

Both Electric Wizard and Sleep are totally doom. Call it stoner doom or sludge doom, but doom it is. And both have quite a bit of Black Sabbath in their sound as well.

Yeah saying Electric Wizard and Sleep don't have massive doom influence/significance is just plain wrong.