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Posted by Silent Jay on 20.04.2011 at 15:23
I was wondering, there's the Big 4 of U.S. Thrash Metal, so what would be the U.K. equivalent?

My first thought is Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motörhead and Saxon. But some of these emerged much earlier than others and the Thrash Big 4, so what other bands emerged a bit later (80's as opposed to 70's) that could be considered part of the Big 4 of British Heavy Metal?

Maybe we can make a definitive MetalStorm decision?

*Sorry if something like this has been posted before, it probably has, but I tried the search function and couldn't find anything.



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RavenEffect

Posts: 504

Age: 27
From: Portugal

  19.02.2015 at 11:25
Actually the Big 4 of Thrash aren't relative to sales at all. It means the first 4 Thrash bands that landed good record Deals. Just that.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  19.02.2015 at 14:50
Written by RavenEffect on 19.02.2015 at 11:25

Actually the Big 4 of Thrash aren't relative to sales at all. It means the first 4 Thrash bands that landed good record Deals. Just that.



No, it referred to the four biggest selling, attendance drawing thrash bands at the time.
The four most popular thrash bands at the time.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
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05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

BitterCOld
Ghost COsmonaut

Posts: 13037

Age: 42
From: Paraguay

  19.02.2015 at 15:23
Not sure why that concept is, nearly 30 years on, still so difficult to grasp.
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RavenEffect

Posts: 504

Age: 27
From: Portugal

  19.02.2015 at 15:38
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 19.02.2015 at 14:50

Written by RavenEffect on 19.02.2015 at 11:25

Actually the Big 4 of Thrash aren't relative to sales at all. It means the first 4 Thrash bands that landed good record Deals. Just that.



No, it referred to the four biggest selling, attendance drawing thrash bands at the time.
The four most popular thrash bands at the time.


This was already covered in a lot of documentaries in articles. They were the first 4 that landed contracts, which was big because all the bands were working hard to get them. The fact that they sold more and got bigger was a result of this, obviously, since they were the poster boys for the whole Thrash movement. Being a Big 4 got them more exposure, thus bigger gigs, thus more sales, etc..
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  19.02.2015 at 15:47
Overkill got a record contract before Megadeth, hence proving you, and other 'revisionists' wrong.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  19.02.2015 at 15:49
Oh and Megaforce, the label Metallica signed to, didn't exist before Metallica signed, it was specifically set up by John Zazula for Metallica, because no label wanted to sign Metallica.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

RavenEffect

Posts: 504

Age: 27
From: Portugal

  19.02.2015 at 16:04
Overkill signed with a small label first and latter went into Megaforce. At this time Megadeth was already with Combat so you're incorrect. Plus, Megadeth was forced to be a poster boy due to the Metallica vendetta.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  19.02.2015 at 16:09
Written by RavenEffect on 19.02.2015 at 16:04

Overkill signed with a small label first and latter went into Megaforce. At this time Megadeth was already with Combat so you're incorrect.


Overkill wasn't on a label before they signed to Megaforce and Megadeth wasn't on a label before they signed to Combat. And Overkill signed to Megaforce before Megadeth signed to Combat. Overkill was already playing thrash before Megadeth started, had already released two demo's before signing to Megaforce, Megadeth had one demo before signing to Combat.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  19.02.2015 at 16:13
RavenEffect, I don't know what your sources are, but they are extremely incorrect.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  19.02.2015 at 16:15
Okay I frogot about the Overkill e.p. which was released before Feel The Fire and that was on Azra, but the fact remains Overkill signed to Megaforce before Megadeth signed to Combat
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

RavenEffect

Posts: 504

Age: 27
From: Portugal

  19.02.2015 at 16:19
Power in Black and Feel the Fire weren't self-released, they were the result of a small deal with Azra in 84. Megaforce picked them in 85. At this time, Megadeth was already working on the debut for Combat, that got delayed due to all the complications between studio staff and band.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  19.02.2015 at 16:27
The Power In Black and Feel The Fire demo's were never released by Azra, they purely self-releasewd cassettes. Only the Overkill e.p. from 1984 was released by Azra, Megaforce picked them up at the end of 1984. And btw Megaforce was a bigger label at the time than Combat and have always remained a bigger label.

But that is besides the point. The point still being that The Big Four Of Thrash referred to sales, popularity etc. at the time it was coined. But it seems that people who weren't around back then seem to know how it was unlike the people who were around and experienced it first-hand. Aaaah the joys of faulty info on the net.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

RavenEffect

Posts: 504

Age: 27
From: Portugal

  19.02.2015 at 16:27
I'm not bumping heads with you Marcel but I feel you're being really stuborn with this case. I wasn't around at that time, obviously, my sources are a gathering of documentaries, books and articles like Louder Than Hell, Murder in the Front Row, etc.. etc...

I don't know, they may or not be correct, but I'll choose to believe they are, some of them being wrote and contributed by the greats of music jornalism and artists themselves.

But yeah, completely irrelevant discussion.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6291
From: Australia

  20.02.2015 at 01:38
IMO Big 4 is purely about which bands were the most popular (which can be measured in terms of sales) and it probably doesn't come into play until about 1985 when thrash was solidified as a genre and Metallica, Megadeth and Slayer all signed to reasonably big labels (Electra, Capitol and Def American) in 1985/86-ish. Anthrax didn't sign to a major until 1993 when they went to Elektra. They stayed with Megaforce (distributed by Island) right up to 1992.

Megadeth were a late comer to Thrash (formed late 1983, the year in which Metallica, Slayer and Exciter had albums out. Anthrqax released their debut in January 1984) but the Metallica link proppelled them intoi the limelight. By the time KIMB...ABIG came out in June 1985, most major thrash acts had at least 1 album out and most of the European bands ala Celtic Frost, Kreator, Artillery, Destruction, Onslaught, releasing albums as well as Yanks like Exodus (much delayed Bonded By Blood), Dark Angel, S.O.D, Whiplash etc etc. Thus Megadeth was certainly not a pioneering band in Thrash, even though Dave Mustaine's influence was when he was in Metallica. And this is coming from a Megadeth fanboy who even likes Super Collider.


You not only had Overkill playing Thrash pre-Metallica but also arguably Exciter whose first album came out a few months before Kill Em All. There were probably others (e.g. Exodus formed in 1980). Early Slayer and Anthrax were still primarily rooted in NWOBHM and heavy metal on their first albums and didn't go "full thrash" until their second releases.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  20.02.2015 at 10:54
Overkill only started playing thrash after Metallica had a demo out. Before that they were a cover band.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

BitterCOld
Ghost COsmonaut

Posts: 13037

Age: 42
From: Paraguay

  20.02.2015 at 15:24
I don't know how big or small Island was, but I saw Anthrax records and cassettes in every Wherehouse, Sam Goody, etc I went to back in the mid-late 80s.
----
get the fuck off my lawn.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  20.02.2015 at 15:38
Written by BitterCOld on 20.02.2015 at 15:24

I don't know how big or small Island was, but I saw Anthrax records and cassettes in every Wherehouse, Sam Goody, etc I went to back in the mid-late 80s.



Island Records was/is a subdivision of Universal Music Group.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6291
From: Australia

  23.02.2015 at 00:51
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 20.02.2015 at 15:38

Written by BitterCOld on 20.02.2015 at 15:24

I don't know how big or small Island was, but I saw Anthrax records and cassettes in every Wherehouse, Sam Goody, etc I went to back in the mid-late 80s.



Island Records was/is a subdivision of Universal Music Group.



Island was only acquired by UMG in 1999. Between 1989 and 1999 it was part of PolyGram. Before that they were an independent but a large one, having had such bands as U2, Bob Marley, Robert Palmer and the B-52s on their roster. With that kind of lineup they probably had some quite lucrative distribution deals which would've helped Anthrax get their music into shops.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  23.02.2015 at 01:07
Written by deadone on 23.02.2015 at 00:51

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 20.02.2015 at 15:38

Written by BitterCOld on 20.02.2015 at 15:24

I don't know how big or small Island was, but I saw Anthrax records and cassettes in every Wherehouse, Sam Goody, etc I went to back in the mid-late 80s.



Island Records was/is a subdivision of Universal Music Group.



Island was only acquired by UMG in 1999. Between 1989 and 1999 it was part of PolyGram. Before that they were an independent but a large one, having had such bands as U2, Bob Marley, Robert Palmer and the B-52s on their roster. With that kind of lineup they probably had some quite lucrative distribution deals which would've helped Anthrax get their music into shops.



Didn't know about them starting as an independent, or had forgotten about it. But even as an independent they were a lot bigger than the biggest player in the metal world, Roadrunner, at the time. So certainly bigger than Megaforce and Combat. I would say they were as big as Def Jam although Def Jam wasn't that big outside of rap.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6291
From: Australia

  23.02.2015 at 01:29
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 23.02.2015 at 01:07


Didn't know about them starting as an independent, or had forgotten about it. But even as an independent they were a lot bigger than the biggest player in the metal world, Roadrunner, at the time. So certainly bigger than Megaforce and Combat. I would say they were as big as Def Jam although Def Jam wasn't that big outside of rap.


Totally agree. I think they were even bigger than Def Jam with acts like U2 in thew\ 1980s and Bob Marley in the 1970s. But the market was more diverse then and the big players didn't have as much power.

Starting in the 1990s we've had the big players buying up all the bigger indepdendents (even Roadrunner is part of Warner these days). It's the same in every industry - essentially modern technology and unregulated capitalism seems to result in formation of oligopolies or even monopolies. There's a topic for a doctoral dissertation if I ever saw one.

Incidentally UMG merged Def Jam and Island into 1 label from 1999 to 2014 when they split them into 3 (including a newly revamped Motown Records).

In other label related news, apparently Music For Nations is back.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  23.02.2015 at 01:42
Written by deadone on 23.02.2015 at 01:29

In other label related news, apparently Music For Nations is back.



yeah saw that a couple of days ago.

I still find it hilarious that Roadrunner had to be called Roadracer for a bit of time in the US due to the Roadrunner cartoon.
And somehow people think Roadrunner was an American record label.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6291
From: Australia

  23.02.2015 at 01:56
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 23.02.2015 at 01:42


I still find it hilarious that Roadrunner had to be called Roadracer for a bit of time in the US due to the Roadrunner cartoon.
And somehow people think Roadrunner was an American record label.


The Roadracer v Roadrunner thing used to confuse the crap out me when I was a teenager.

Ever since they had that massive downsizing a few years ago (including resignation of Cees Wessel), not much new metal stuff seems to be coming out of the Roadrunner camp. In fact they've lost a few big names ala Megadeth, Cradle of Filth, Soulfly and Cavalera Conspiracy.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  23.02.2015 at 02:04
Written by deadone on 23.02.2015 at 01:56


The Roadracer v Roadrunner thing used to confuse the crap out me when I was a teenager.


The funny thing was that Roadrunner was only called Roadracer in the US and Roadrunner everywhere, but US pressings also somehow ended up on the European market, so you'd get both Roadrunner and Roadracer pressings of the same album doing its rounds here.

Quote:

Ever since they had that massive downsizing a few years ago (including resignation of Cees Wessel), not much new metal stuff seems to be coming out of the Roadrunner camp. In fact they've lost a few big names ala Megadeth, Cradle of Filth, Soulfly and Cavalera Conspiracy.


Cees Wessels resigned when he sold Roadrunner to Warner late 2006 early 2007.

Megadeth was already way over its top when they signed to Roadrunner and didn't sell that well at all, so understandable that they would get dumped. Same for Soulfly and Cavalera Conspiracy, both bands didn't sell that much at all.
Weird thing is that Within Temptation was dumped, since they were by far ROadrunner's biggest seller together with SlipKnot and Nickelback.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6291
From: Australia

  23.02.2015 at 02:39
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 23.02.2015 at 02:04

Cees Wessels resigned when he sold Roadrunner to Warner late 2006 early 2007.


He stayed on as CEO until 2012:

http://hornsuprocks.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/roadrunner-records-founderceo-cees.html


Quote:
Megadeth was already way over its top when they signed to Roadrunner and didn't sell that well at all, so understandable that they would get dumped. Same for Soulfly and Cavalera Conspiracy, both bands didn't sell that much at all.



Actually it's been a mixed bag for Megadeth - sales are declining but Billboard positions actually improved with Super Collider being highest rating album since Youthanasia:


World Needs A Hero (61,000 1st week sales, #16 on Billboard)
The System Has Failed (46,000 1st week sales, #18 oin Billboard)
United Abominations (59,000 1st week sales, #8 on Billboard)
Endgame (45,000 sales, #9 on Billboard)
Thirteen (42,000 sales, #11 on Billboard)
Super Collider (29,000 sales, #6 on Billboard)

Now one has to ask the question: are Megadeth sales dropping faster than overall CD sales (due to downloading etc)?

They did technically upgrade their label too - they switched to Tradecraft which was a label created specifically for Megadeth by Universal Music Group.

As for Soulfly:

Dark Ages - 8,000
Conquer - 8,400
Omen - 6,000
Enslaved - 5,900
Savages (not Roadrunner) - 4,700

Cavalera Conspiracy:
Inflikted - 9,000
Blunt Force Trauma - 5,000
Panedmonium (not Roadrunner) - 2,600 - ouch!


Now the irony - when Sepultura split, Roadrunner supported Max and effectively dumped Sepultura. They were also quick to dump Machine Head in USA when their sales started to flounder.

Quote:
Weird thing is that Within Temptation was dumped, since they were by far ROadrunner's biggest seller together with SlipKnot and Nickelback.


Were they dumped or did they leave of their own accord? Roadrunner is a bit notorious for crap deals or trying to influence artists - Dragonforce left on account of the label trying to interfere in their music.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  23.02.2015 at 02:46
Ah so Cees Wessels did stay on after he sold his share in Roadrunner. At the time some people said he did and others said he didn't.
No idea why he would stay on though. If I were him I would have gone and live on a tropical Island.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6291
From: Australia

  23.02.2015 at 02:53
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 23.02.2015 at 02:46

Ah so Cees Wessels did stay on after he sold his share in Roadrunner. At the time some people said he did and others said he didn't.
No idea why he would stay on though. If I were him I would have gone and live on a tropical Island.



It'd be hard for him to let go of something he spent nearly 30 years building up. Business owners tend to have a lot of themselves invested in their businesses - it's basically part of their identity.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 37851

Age: 47
From: The Netherlands

  23.02.2015 at 03:00
Written by deadone on 23.02.2015 at 02:53

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 23.02.2015 at 02:46

Ah so Cees Wessels did stay on after he sold his share in Roadrunner. At the time some people said he did and others said he didn't.
No idea why he would stay on though. If I were him I would have gone and live on a tropical Island.



It'd be hard for him to let go of something he spent nearly 30 years building up. Business owners tend to have a lot of themselves invested in their businesses - it's basically part of their identity.


I still find it hilarious that The Nylons was one of the first to release something on Roadrunner.

If I am not mistaken their first successful metal signing was Mercyful Fate who signed with them on June 25, 1983, the day they played Aardschokdag and they were the first ever band I saw live on that very same day.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6291
From: Australia

  23.02.2015 at 03:10
I had to look up the Nylons - damn they're an a cappella group. How bizarre indeed! I hate a cappella with a passion!
Guib

Posts: 2244

Age: 24
From: Canada

  16.04.2015 at 22:56
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 20.02.2015 at 10:54

Overkill only started playing thrash after Metallica had a demo out. Before that they were a cover band.


Also eh... Just like that, Didn't ''Voivod'' release their demo ''Anachronism'' in 1983 way before Megadeth and then again they released ''War And Pain'' before ''Killing is my business''... and what about ''Suicidal Tendencies'' or ''Dr. Know'' unless Crossover
Doesn't count as part of the Thrash Movement which would hurt my feelings.

But yeah, gotta agree with Marcel on that one... It has nothing to do with who landed a contract first.
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