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Feminism



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22.10.2006 - 20:47
Achor
Account deleted
I'm really tired of all the feminists who blames every single bad thing in the society on the men.

A few years ago the leader of the national organisation for women- and girl-helpcenters (dont know the proper english translation) said, in public, that all men are pigs. How the hell can she say something like that? How the hell can women draw the conclusion that ALL men are bad?
Afterwards, when it had been on the first page in every newspaper, there was a reporter who asked her if she still meant what she said. She answered "But all men ARE pigs. Don't YOU think so?"
When I heard that I was like "whoa!" I mean, she sounded like a freakin maniac. I was honestly scared.

Another feminist debate in Sweden was whether we would boycott the FIFA World Cup just because prostitution is legal in Germany. Some stupid feminist (can't remember name) wrote a blog about that men "should take their responsibility". She said that if you're not against it, you're with it. How the hell can she really believe that i can't enjoy football without having to fuck a prostitute after a game? Talk about preconceived opinions.
"Men are pigs" pfff... That fucking feminist blogger is nothing but a filthy animal.

Since a new party started in Swedish politics, Feministic Initiative, I am no longer a feminist. I do believe that men and women should be equal to eachother, but the word feminist has got a new meaning to me. Feminism is now a synonyme to the word "sexism".
This party wanted all men to pay a certain tax that would pay for the rehabilitation of beat up women. Fucking fascists!

And have you heard about the book "The SCUM-manifest"? The author basically says that men are the reason why the world is as bad as it is, and that all women should exterminate the male gender. Hmm, that sounds familiar somehow. Could it be MEIN KAMPF, written by freakin ADOLF HITLER??? Only the word "jew" has been replaced by the word "male".

I am not a feminist, but I am a feminimasculinist. I don't want women to run the world. I want both men AND women to do it. Therefore, I am a feminimasculinist.
All feminists should burn in hell. Boycott feminism.
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22.10.2006 - 20:53
Basso
Account deleted
Guess who made pornography legal? Feminists, guess who wants it illegal, Feminists.

Well I am neither against nor with it. But I have to admit I find it rather silly.
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23.10.2006 - 02:39
Insineratehymn
Account deleted
I hate feminism. They attempt to blame all the world's problems on men, but then they tend to contradict themselves later on as those feminists end up creating more problems in the world. They always complain that they want to be equal with men, but the thing is, women are already equal with men, but for some reason, feminists find something else to complain about and try to blame that on men. It's not always the male gender's fault for a new problem that arises in the world. This kind of bigotry portrayed by feminists makes them no better than the male species they strive to blame for everything. As for the feminist book mentioned in the first post and how it wants all men exterminated, I have found a logical fallacy in that belief. If all men are exterminated, how are humans supposed to reproduce? Humans are male AND female for this reason: procreation. If there are only women with no male counterparts to complete reproduction, then humanity will most obviously become extinct.

I'm sorry if this post sounded a bit sloppy, but my train of thought was in a hurry and couldn't make its usual stops. This thread also reminded me of an article by Maddox, which is absolutely priceless.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=feminazi
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23.10.2006 - 14:16
Lupas
Maximus
Well i think that i can't imagine a world only for females

There will be always the same problem ............ " I want to be like her:
And that would be murder, rubbery, agoist, etc etc.
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"For what point has this life if you can't realise your dreams?" -- The Divine Comedy
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23.10.2006 - 15:40
Sunioj

The only place I think that women should be treated better is in the Islamic world and other thrid world countries. Yes, in regard to Basso's comment on porn, Ive read up on dykes and lesbian feminists making lesbian hardcore porn specified for WOMEN ONLY!

Well thats not very common there are alot of people actually gain of porn like women especially, but thats mainly in the west, porn is usually derogatory and abusive in Israel in eastern EU.

This paradox of feminism IMO is just like any other human rights group that claim everyone else to be a racist, bigot, facist, etc. That kind of victimized behaviour is absolutely everywhere.
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23.10.2006 - 16:47
Achor
Account deleted
@Insineratehymn: in the book, they explain how they would reproduce without men: they would take cells from their own bodies and put it in their uterus somehow hehe

i mean, come on! how stupid are they? many women claims that there would be no wars and no crimes if men didnt exist, or if women would run the society. but as lupas said, they would find their own reasons to kill each other hehehe.
and what about those women who actually like men? those women who are called HETEROSEXUAL! how would they like it in a world consisting of women only?
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23.10.2006 - 18:10
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
I consider myself a feminist, but not a very radical one. After all, it's still a mans world we're living in... But I don't want to blame men for everything bad in this world. Certain things just keep annoying me and I suppose men don't even always realize what's wrong. For example the difference in the wages. It's said that woman's euro is 80 cents and unfortunately it's true. In many branches men are much higher paid for the same job that women are only paid peanuts. Just because they're so much stronger and effective. Well, it's a universal truth that women are physically weaker than men, but it's no reason for that.

Another issue is the discrimination of women in the working life. Just because young women are likely to start a family, they won't get a job in the male-managed enterprise, as they might get pregnant. Sometimes I just wonder if some men even remember that they wouldn't be here if their mothers hadn't given birth to them... And at the same time those hypocrite men worry about the lowering birthrate. As soon as women don't have to worry about getting kicked off their job due to a pregnancy, the birthrate will certainly start to rise.

Also only a fraction of all the bosses are women. Men have had so many years time to create a network that when some boss retires he makes sure the new one will be male. And there's no prove that women would be somehow worse leaders than men.

I'm not saying all men are bad. Most of them are caring and lovable, but there are always some assholes among them like there are among women. Equality should be our goal. It's too bad that most feminists don't know when they cross the border of equality and start to oppress men.
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You'll never walk alone.
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23.10.2006 - 18:18
Hyvaarin

Written by Ernotar on 23.10.2006 at 18:10

I consider myself a feminist, but not a very radical one. After all, it's still a mans world we're living in... But I don't want to blame men for everything bad in this world. Certain things just keep annoying me and I suppose men don't even always realize what's wrong. For example the difference in the wages. It's said that woman's euro is 80 cents and unfortunately it's true. In many branches men are much higher paid for the same job that women are only paid peanuts. Just because they're so much stronger and effective.

Though men getting paid more than women for doing the same job sucks, people working more effectively deserve more money.
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"Summoned By Words Never Spoken Before..."
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23.10.2006 - 18:34
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
@ Hyvaarin Yes, but in most cases women are badly paid just because they're women. Those men who smoke get paid exactly as much as those men who don't smoke, although they use some of the valuable working hours smoking outside the building. So, my point is same job = same wage.
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You'll never walk alone.
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23.10.2006 - 20:45
Achor
Account deleted
im with you all on the point that women should have the same wage as men if they're doing the same job.

@Ernotar: i respect your opinions, and i share them aswell. unfortunately there are these radical feminists who makes me hate feminism. coz after all they are still feminists. i dont know what word i wanna use for myself. as i said in the first post, i came up with the word feminimasculinist hehe another good word would be "equalist". i dont want to put the word "feminism" in my mouth, or worse, claim that i am one. but i do agree with you in what you've said so far, even though you call yourself a feminist.
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23.10.2006 - 22:35
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
@ Achor My mum is a feminist and she has taught me to be one too. I think the whole word feminism has got a negative tone because of those women who say they hate all men. I wouldn't call them feminists, just lunatics.
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You'll never walk alone.
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24.10.2006 - 04:52
AntaeusM
Elite
@Ernotar, I always wonder one thing about feminists.

They NEVER complain about the disadvantages of being a male. For example, in a lot of countries you have to go into army when you turn 18 when you are a male. not one feminist ever complained about women who don't have to go to army forced.

Or what about the fact that women are way more protected when it comes to the rights of a child when the parents are divorcing?

These are just things that made me think "femininsts are hypocrites". they do want the advantages of being a male, but they don't want the disadvantages. That alone, makes feminism pretty worthless to me.
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24.10.2006 - 13:52
Lupas
Maximus
Written by Ernotar on 23.10.2006 at 22:35

@ Achor My mum is a feminist and she has taught me to be one too. I think the whole word feminism has got a negative tone because of those women who say they hate all men. I wouldn't call them feminists, just lunatics.


Or just fanatics who deserve to say to them mad, close minded persons. I can't say that all men or all women are assholes but there are still men and women that do respect each other, and thier number is not low at all .

One thing that one can consider about work is that there are certain type of works that not every woman can do. Like a work in a minery for example. I can'i imagine a woman in there ( All the dirt ,mud or webs ) Some like about man although there are few persone that can do both works as well.

I'm not unti femminist but sometimes women pretends much from thier aspects !
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"For what point has this life if you can't realise your dreams?" -- The Divine Comedy
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24.10.2006 - 15:46
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
@ Blackgir Nowadays many women volunteer to go to the army. And in many countries compulsory army has been changed to a professional army. Anyway, the army itself was created by men and women weren't allowed to take part in it. So it's men's own bad...

You also mentioned the woman's rights in a divorce. Well, after carrying the baby for 9 months, giving birth to it in major pain and breast feeding it for a year or so, I think the mother has a right to be the the legal guardian of the child. Of course the father has to have a chance to meet his child as often as possible and spend time with the kid. But in many cases the child is very dependent on the mother and has a deeper mental contact to her. Too often fathers just have fun making the kids, but get tired taking care of them right after the child has constantly cried for 2 months. So, in my opinion, if the child is still very small, it needs its mother. But if the mother isn't capable of taking care of the infant, the father should have every right to take the child to live with him. I do think that the system we have now oppresses men as they lose the contact to their children after the divorce, but I think everyone should think what's best for the child. At least not to make the kid decide where it wants to live.
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You'll never walk alone.
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24.10.2006 - 16:16
Achor
Account deleted
@Ernotar: so you're saying that women have more rights to have the baby just because she's the woman? what about the man, who probably have helped and supported the woman during the pregnancy? the man has done everything he can, i mean, he cant choose to give birth to the child himself.
the biological conditions that comes with different genders shouldnt decide who is the better parent. and it is the better parent who should have the custody of the child.
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24.10.2006 - 16:20
AntaeusM
Elite
Written by Ernotar on 24.10.2006 at 15:46

@ Blackgir Nowadays many women volunteer to go to the army. And in many countries compulsory army has been changed to a professional army. Anyway, the army itself was created by men and women weren't allowed to take part in it. So it's men's own bad...

You also mentioned the woman's rights in a divorce. Well, after carrying the baby for 9 months, giving birth to it in major pain and breast feeding it for a year or so, I think the mother has a right to be the the legal guardian of the child. Of course the father has to have a chance to meet his child as often as possible and spend time with the kid. But in many cases the child is very dependent on the mother and has a deeper mental contact to her. Too often fathers just have fun making the kids, but get tired taking care of them right after the child has constantly cried for 2 months. So, in my opinion, if the child is still very small, it needs its mother. But if the mother isn't capable of taking care of the infant, the father should have every right to take the child to live with him. I do think that the system we have now oppresses men as they lose the contact to their children after the divorce, but I think everyone should think what's best for the child. At least not to make the kid decide where it wants to live.


so if the army was made by men, should we also force education only on men? since education was also originally made by men. Shall we bring women back to the protective lives they had in the past? because most of the nowadays systems -such as education and work- are made by men. Women have the freedom to get educated, and to find a good job. And we all would like to keep it that way, right? The argument that men made it isn't valid. We are talking here about equal rights. An equal right would be that both men and women must go to army when they are 18. Not only the men. Or do you think it is fair that men have to screw up -or maybe join a war- for a few years just because they are men? Women are really lucky they can just stay at home/school and continue their lifes. Really, I would respect a femininst if she should try to make this law count for both men and women, but I haven't seen it happen yet.(by the way, this law doesn't apply in my country, I just mentioned it as one of the many examples).

So because women are "lucky" they have to carry the baby, give birth to it and breastfeed it, gave them more rights over the baby? So basically feminists see the mother as a more important person in the baby's life than the father? The argument that fathers get tired of their child because they cry all the time is just a simple prejudice. If I become a father later, and I would have a child who cried like the entire day, then I would try to take care of the baby and make it stop crying. Because I would love the baby just as much as the mother would do. Or do you want to say I am the only guy who think like this? The child needs his father and his mother. Why do you think a family exists of a father and a mother? Because they are both neccesary for the growth of the child.

And you kinda ignored that I said femininsts are only after the advantages of being a male, and they ignore the disadvantages. Actually, I wonder if you agree with that or not(probably not haha). But saying men have more advantages than women in society is absurd, and far from the truth. We are equal nowadays. Of course there are differences, but we can't expect men and women to be exact the same. There are mental and physical differences between men and women, which we cannot just simply ignore for the sake of "equality".
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24.10.2006 - 19:05
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
I think the whole army system was originally developed that way because in war time women were needed home to take care of the children and do the jobs of their men, so that the factories didn't stop production. Anyway, I support professional army, so in that case I agree that it's wrong that men have to spend time in the army while the women can continue studying etc. But in my opinion, the army should be made professional instead of forcing women to the army. And it's a truth that women are physically weaker than men. First men think it's ok that women should have lower wages as they're so much weaker and at the same time they think women should go to the army where they just couldn't do all the same things as men. I want to see the man who wants his country to be protected by women... And putting the whole age group to the army at the same time would cost too much to society. That point about education was good, but at the same time when men decided that education is available also to women, they could've made also the army compulsory to women...

The child needs his both parents. But you can't help it that a child needs his mother more than his father in his first years. Right after the birth, the child is given to his mother and that's the first time the bond between the mother and the child is created. In his first few months the child needs to be fed in every three hours, so it's natural that he spends more time with his mother. The family also has to get money, so usually it's the father who goes to work and the mother is home with the infant. Of course the father tries to spend as much time as possible with the baby. What sucks that men can't keep longer paternity leaves. I dont blame them, I blame society. But surprisingly high amount of men don't even want to keep their paternity leave although they could! When the child grows the role of the father gets bigger and bigger. I just wonder why I haven't seen any kid crying after his dad in a kindergarten...it's always mum the are longing for. All in all, I think if the child is still very small when the divorce occurs, the mother should have the right to keep him with her, but if the child is over 3 years, the father should have the equal rights in the divorce court. But generally speaking, many fathers decide it's better that the child lives at his mother.

Yep, I ignored that as I my sister needed the computer... Well, believe it or not, there are also disadvantages in being a woman. Men haven't been after lower wages, although the equality could also be reached that way, So, if men didn't need to go to the army, they also didn't need to have higher wages, men bosses could be changed to women bosses in name of the equality etc... And you're lucky it's not possible for men to have periods, otherwise they'd probably want to have them, too... But yes, maybe feminists only see the good sides in masculinity. On the other hand, we're talking about equality in rights, not duties.
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You'll never walk alone.
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24.10.2006 - 19:22
Skald
Account deleted
Written by Ernotar on 24.10.2006 at 15:46

You also mentioned the woman's rights in a divorce. Well, after carrying the baby for 9 months, giving birth to it in major pain and breast feeding it for a year or so, I think the mother has a right to be the the legal guardian of the child. Of course the father has to have a chance to meet his child as often as possible and spend time with the kid. But in many cases the child is very dependent on the mother and has a deeper mental contact to her. Too often fathers just have fun making the kids, but get tired taking care of them right after the child has constantly cried for 2 months. So, in my opinion, if the child is still very small, it needs its mother. But if the mother isn't capable of taking care of the infant, the father should have every right to take the child to live with him. I do think that the system we have now oppresses men as they lose the contact to their children after the divorce, but I think everyone should think what's best for the child. At least not to make the kid decide where it wants to live.
Out of this whole text, I agree with only one sentence :p
"But in many cases the child is very dependent on the mother and has a deeper mental contact to her."
On TV I've seen some cases where fathers would spend entire days with their babies, while mothers would spend most of their time out, working. In the end, one of the mothers said, when she returns home, her child for the most part sees only the tit in her. Because of the breast feeding, the child feels safer around her.
This shows no matter who's raising the child, it has a biological need to be close to its mother.

However, this leads to two conclusions:

The idea of woman staying at home to raise the children isn't as stupid as many feminists seem to believe it to be. There's a biological reason to do this, at least during the first years of baby's life.

Women and men aren't same. So let's stop pretending we are. We have different biology and what follows - physical attributes and mentality. It's okay to fight the 'superior' attitude, but insisting on people seeing no difference between a woman and a man is another case.
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24.10.2006 - 19:54
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
@ Skald Exactly! To be honest, I think we'll never reach equality in this world and I don't even know if I'd like it to happen. There are certain things that could be changed, but men will always be stronger and little girls will always be taught to cook and clean so that they can take care of the home in the future. But I think it's every womans duty to take care of the infant and stay home with him. If I had a child, I'd be happy to spend my days at home assuming that I'd sometimes get some time of my own while the father would get some quality time with the child. But I also think that it's old-fashioned to think that woman's place is at home cooking to her husband. Women have a right to work, too.
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You'll never walk alone.
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24.10.2006 - 20:45
Suicide Bug
Account deleted
Written by Guest on 22.10.2006 at 20:47

And have you heard about the book "The SCUM-manifest"? The author basically says that men are the reason why the world is as bad as it is, and that all women should exterminate the male gender. Hmm, that sounds familiar somehow. Could it be MEIN KAMPF, written by freakin ADOLF HITLER??? Only the word "jew" has been replaced by the word "male".


haha, that's silly. Come on now, I hope you ain't serious about it. Poor Adolf would be outraged at that, and rightfully so. He was actually dangerous. Quite so. Despite his raving insanity, Hitler was a figure of power and possessed the energy and charisma to convince large masses of people, even amongst the educated classes, and there was more to his theories than just exterminating the jews.
The author of this ''scum manifest'', instead, just sounds like a bitter spinster in her menopause, and I doubt that anyone would take her too seriously. Even 99.9% of feminists would just have a laugh at this.
If you take a look at the outside world, especially the less developed countries, you will see that there are still millions of women being beaten, discriminated, abused, brutalized and just plain killed. I think feminists should worry about this (and in fact many do) rather than about dismantling public urinals. All in all feminism has some historycal merits in my opinion, but it should now recognize that male and female rights and condition are pretty equal in western society, less it becomes a dull and rather annoying (though not really harmful) form of sexism.
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25.10.2006 - 02:20
BitterCOld
The Ancient One
Written by Guest on 24.10.2006 at 19:22

Written by Ernotar on 24.10.2006 at 15:46

You also mentioned the woman's rights in a divorce. Well, after carrying the baby for 9 months, giving birth to it in major pain and breast feeding it for a year or so, I think the mother has a right to be the the legal guardian of the child. Of course the father has to have a chance to meet his child as often as possible and spend time with the kid. But in many cases the child is very dependent on the mother and has a deeper mental contact to her. Too often fathers just have fun making the kids, but get tired taking care of them right after the child has constantly cried for 2 months. So, in my opinion, if the child is still very small, it needs its mother. But if the mother isn't capable of taking care of the infant, the father should have every right to take the child to live with him. I do think that the system we have now oppresses men as they lose the contact to their children after the divorce, but I think everyone should think what's best for the child. At least not to make the kid decide where it wants to live.
Out of this whole text, I agree with only one sentence :p
"But in many cases the child is very dependent on the mother and has a deeper mental contact to her."
On TV I've seen some cases where fathers would spend entire days with their babies, while mothers would spend most of their time out, working. In the end, one of the mothers said, when she returns home, her child for the most part sees only the tit in her. Because of the breast feeding, the child feels safer around her.
This shows no matter who's raising the child, it has a biological need to be close to its mother.

However, this leads to two conclusions:

The idea of woman staying at home to raise the children isn't as stupid as many feminists seem to believe it to be. There's a biological reason to do this, at least during the first years of baby's life.

Women and men aren't same. So let's stop pretending we are. We have different biology and what follows - physical attributes and mentality. It's okay to fight the 'superior' attitude, but insisting on people seeing no difference between a woman and a man is another case.



That suggestion you made - that men and women are different (even without any superiority/inferiority inferred) was enough to get the President of Harvard University fired.

Hooray PC.

Everyone is the same!
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get the fuck off my lawn.

Beer Bug Virus Spotify Playlist crafted by Nikarg and I. Feel free to tune in and add some pertinent metal tunes!
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25.10.2006 - 03:20
Red Frosty
Account deleted
i think the problem with the feminist position is that it, like leftism (and neonazism/theo-con-ism) in general, is often occupied by people who have an axe to grind with society and so hit out with extremist, lunatic views.

There are many intelligent, rational and sensible feminists who are fighting for the rights and responsibilities of an oppressed class. Unfortunately many young women are drawn to pseudo-feminism as a simple way of making themselves feel superior and emancipated, and it is these who are the lunatics. The people who claim to hate men are the ones that grab the headlines, and do not realise that such positions justify domination by one sex over the other, which is the root problem.

A feminist must realise that what they fight for is not their sex, or their rights. They fight for the rights of a sex, and one which they should regard dispassionately. A true feminist realises that feminism itself is a silly idea. Feminism is like robbing a shop and only taking the coins, because they are shiny. There is only ONE human rights struggle that can be fought, and that is for the end to ALL oppression. To fight for the rights of women whilst propping up the unfair system of world trade, or ignoring the inherent racism in all capitalist societies, or engaging in any other of the rights struggles is to be utterly hypocritical and self-serving.

Don't fight for your own rights, fight for all rights for all people.
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25.10.2006 - 19:11
Achor
Account deleted
Suicide Bug: no, im not really serious i just wanted to make a comparison hehe, coz they both share the thought of blaming one group of people for all the bad in the world...

@Ernotar: so you're saying that men have higher wages just because they have to be in the army? coz then actually it wouldnt be a problem that men have higher wages, since they have to work for it...

@Red Frosty: i agree with you completely. its just that its a big war to fight against oppression hehe. and you have to do it step by step. and also, there are different kinds of oppression, which needs different kinds of actions to fight... so its not easy to fight oppression in general, you have to divide the different problems to be able to fight them.
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25.10.2006 - 19:46
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
@ Achor No, I don't think you got it right...

1. Men use the "we are stronger" -fact as a justification for their higher wages.
2. It's a universal truth that women are physically weaker than men.
3. Men want the army to be compulsory for the women, too.
4. Check the point 2. Women don't have the same abilities as men have to do all the tasks in the army.
5. When it comes to the needs of the army, it would be unnecessary to train the whole age group. The garrisons are closed all the time as the need of new forces has decreased. Training all women would mean the twice as many garrisons and trainers and few countries could afford that.

Got my point now?

@ Red Frosty Sometimes I just feel that some men are like Gollum in LOTR. "My precious" being their rights to treat women as objects and to turn down women's every cry for justice. I agree that it's important to fight for the rights of all people. But then again, from all those "all people" women are in a weaker position all around the world. In Western countries women have it pretty well, but what about those women outside the Western civilization? Men are telling them how to dress, not allowing them to have any contact with other men or being allowed to even touch any other men (and now I mean more like a hand shaking...) And when a woman doesn't do like her husband tells her to do, she gets badly beaten or even killed. Not to talk about women being delivery machines. No birth control, approximately 8 pregnancies in a lifetime and a total responsibility of taking care of the children at least if they are girls.
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You'll never walk alone.
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25.10.2006 - 20:08
Achor
Account deleted
@Ernotar: so men are stronger, im with you on that one. if men has to be in the army, just because they're more fit for it, then it would be the same as to say that women HAS to stay home with the kids, since the mother has a deeper bond with the child. but still, you're saying that women should have the right to work even though they have small kids at home

and i also think i should explain our system on the compulsory military service in sweden. all men dont have to join the army. what you HAVE to do is try out for it. and then they'll decide if ur suitable for the army. if you are suitable, you have no choice but to go through their education. so there are alot of men that doesnt go to the army. women can join the army too. they have to try out for it, just as us men, but its not compulsory for them. so even if it would be compulsory for women aswell, we wouldnt need more garrisons, since they pick out a certain number of recruits every year...
so excuse me if i have a different definition of compulsory military service, coz this is what it means to me, although i know its different in other countries
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25.10.2006 - 22:37
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
@ Achor I think it would be best for the child if the mother stayed home with him for the first two years. At least I'd like to do so if I had children. But unfortunately the society has made it impossible. A family can hardly live with a low maternity benefit and child allowance if the wage of the father isn't very high. And after the first year the maternity benefit will be changed to an even lower benefit for taking care of the children at home and not putting them in a kindergarten. But earlier in this conversation one of you men was complaining about the fathers having no right to a child, so if there are men who want to stay home with a child for 24/7 without social contacts, feel free. But I think it's also good for the child that he can be in the kindergarten at least for shorter time to form his own social contacts and get to know people of his own age.

The army is obviously different in many countries. And I think the history of the country has an effect on that too. In Finland every guy who has turned 18 has to go to the call-ups. Then they have to serve the army for at least 6 months. If they don't want to go to the army they can do the civil service or if they don't want to do that either, they're put in jail. Anyway, Finland has had wars during the last 100 years of its history and Sweden hasn't. I'd say it's an honour for most young men to go to the army and defend the independency that their grandfathers and great grandfathers once assured. At least in here. For instance my brother spend a year in the army and didn't complain a single time. If all women would have to go to the army too, Finland just couldn't afford it. And at least I wouldn't even get in the army even if I wanted. Asthma, hay-fever, too small... They'd just look at me like this: and throw me out...
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You'll never walk alone.
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26.10.2006 - 02:42
AntaeusM
Elite
@Ernotar
At that time yes, but we are living in 2006 now, not in the far past, and nowadays men and women are equally needed home. so I don't see why we shouldn't change this law. The argument that men are stronger isn't really valid. Because that "rule" doesn't apply always. Most men are stronger than women, but there are some women who are much stronger than most men, and there are men who are just very weak. so from that point of view some weaker men shouldn't deserve army, but still, they have to go when the stronger women don't have to go. That comes to what Archor said. They first test every single person if they are suitable for the army. They will test you both on physical and mental strength, the women who are too weak will simply don't pass the test. It sounds most fair to let them both go to the army forced - and let them all take that test. Not all women have lower wages. Actually, it all depends on how the women perform on their jobs. If they perform good they will get good wages, less good performance means lower wages. And just to continue this argument. There are a lot more women with burnouts, or mental problems because of work. Which is a sign of mental weakness(as in, why women shouldn't go into army, right?). They do work, so they should also go to army. And well, the fact that men didn't make it compulsory for women is wrong, but not a femininst is complaining about that. It wouldn't even surprise me if they say it was something goods they did. Even when it is quite a discrimination towards their gender.
For the record - I really don't care if my country was protected by army of only women. It doesn't hurt my "man pride" if you are after that. I assume those women are the strongest then, so they deserve to protect my little dutch country

Skald made an interesting point here. It made me think. Can we proof what the baby really needs? Do the baby really needs the mother, or does he/she just need the mother's breast because he knows the food is there? Babies love attention. They don't care if it is from their parents, sister/brothers, or strangers. As long as they get attention(so they can also develope their primary social skills). As far as the kindergarten example goes, I think that mostly happens because the child is probably raised by the mother in the first few years. If the father did everything the child would probably have a bigger attachment towards him - and so the kid would run crying after the dad instead of the mom.

I didn't say a thing about the disadvantages of being a women, I talked about the disadvantages of being a men. I know the disadvantages of being a women, but being a male also have its disadvantages. Those disadvantages, the male disadavantages, doesn't seem to interest feminists at all. You mention periods, yeah it is awful for women they have periods, but that doesn't mean men are "less good" or "should respect women more". Men also have many disadvantages in their life, but femininsts seems to simply ignore that and only look at the good things of the male gender. examples of disadvantages of being a male: Higher social pressure from peers in youth and puberty, we always seem to be the worse gender. girls never hurt someone, guys do(a lot of teachers are like this), puberty itself is difficult for men(hormons, change of voice and body, insecurity). Femininsts never complain about that.
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26.10.2006 - 18:22
Ernotar
Cookie Mistress
@ Blackgir In many cases those weak men won't even have to go to the army. A far bigger percentage of women are weaker than men. Of course there are always some exceptions to the rule... But I can't change the situation of Finnish army to be similar to the Swedish system, can I? As much as I'd like to see the change, it won't happen. Again, countries are different. Both my grandfathers have been in the war, my father spent his whole childhood near garrisons and served the army when he was older and my brother has voluntarily spent 6 more months in the army than would've been necessary. They all say that there's no sense in putting women in the army and they're all men. Let's pretend there was a war going on in Finland... All men and women would be called up to join the army and defend their country. Who would take care of all the work that would be left undone while everyone was in the army? Who would take care of the children? Who would take care of the wounded ones in the hospitals? Perhaps the old people or what's your suggestion?

The mother is the walking food supply of the baby. The child doesn't have to know his mum just from the breasts. Babies are a bit like dogs, they love the one who gives them the food... Their relationship to their dad is a bit different, but it will get stronger and stronger when the child grows up. It's true that the baby won't care about who gives him attention as long as someone does. But it's a fact that no baby can do without mother's milk. Even those babies whose mother dies after giving birth to, will be kept in hospital and given some other mother's milk. The hospitals have a special "mother's milk bank" just for that. If the baby doesn't get the mother's milk, he won't get the important antidotes.

If you're so worried about the oppression of men by feminists, why don't you join some organization that fights for men's rights... Are you saying puberty isn't difficult for women? Believe me, it is! There happen more changes in woman's body than there happen in man's body during the puberty. It's not like dancing on a bed of roses, actually...

And finally about the wages again... There's absolutely no grain of truth in what you said! At least in Finland the universities are the first to even think about starting the performance-related wage system. But in general, women get much lower wages than men from the same job. It can't be so that all women behave worse in their jobs and are that way paid less. For instance why does a male headmaster get 200 euros more in a month than a female headmaster? That's just blatant discrimination!
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You'll never walk alone.
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26.10.2006 - 20:19
Achor
Account deleted
the thing about women having lower wages isnt really that true...
mostly, its said that a woman's salary is about 80% of the man's salary. but these numbers only considers professional categories. if you look at such factors as education, age, working experience, workplace and so on, the difference of the wages reduces to 1-2%. there are alot of myths like this. for example the myth that men hit their women more than women hit their men. men and women hit each others about equally as much, only that most men dont report it to the police...
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27.10.2006 - 04:51
Linak
I Own You Bitch
@Ernostar: From your first post, and since I am one lazy ass and don't wanna quote everything, especially since they are comments from different posts, but oh well, here goes it.

As soon as women don't have to worry about getting kicked off their job due to a pregnancy, the birthrate will certainly start to rise.

Hmm, I don't think a woman has been fired because of pregnancy, ever heard of maternity leaves? you're talking about 20 years ago or something, and I come from what is considered a third-world country, that doesn't even happen here girl.

But it's a fact that no baby can do without mother's milk.

Not entirely true either, since there's what we call 'Formula' over here, I don't really know how it is caled in other countries, but it is a substitute for milk, and I've heard it does wonders for the baby, can't speak from experience though, and I'm not saying either that the baby is better off without the mother either.

For instance why does a male headmaster get 200 euros more in a month than a female headmaster? That's just blatant discrimination!

Hm, again this sounds quite suspicious to me, my highschool principal was a woman, and damn did she make some money... and btw, did you know the current president of the United Nations is a woman? (at least of the International Court of Justice, trust me, I would know about that haha) I am pretty sure she makes an incredible amount of money.

I think I get Blackgir's point of view actually, I don't think you got his point either, I guess hew as just wondering why women always complain about those kind of things, but when it comes to other type of things then they shut up, I'm a girl haha trust me, and I rather not discuss about things like 'why do men get to do this and women can't' because I'd be digging my grave, if so called feminists want 'to be treated the same as men' we really wouldn't like it if they actually called us on to the army, I think that's what he meant imo.

As for feminism in general, I don't think you'll like to hear this, but nowadays, discrimination towards women is created by women themselves. We all have the same rights as men right? I don't think there's one legal thing they have above us -in most countries- let's not count India or such right now, since we'd be meddling with religion as well (and btw, the guy who won the Nobel Prize of Economy (I think) or whatever, damn, you'd like to know about that, anyway, research it, it has a lot to do with how much women have developed), so anyway, it is the same old paradigm of women being 'not capable', only that men don't think that way anymore, women have prooved to be worth it, SO much, I know because I've seen it with my own beautiful eyes, new generations don't see men as superior than women anymore, but who do? Women themselves.

I am not saying women think they are less capable than men, but they are the who THINK men do... that's why feminists go on attacking, when there really is nothing to complain imo. I guess we're still insecure huh?

The conviction, the thought and idea and well, let's call it a paradigm again, that women are discriminated by men is just.. well it doesn't make sense, women are discriminated by themselves, using men as an excuse, nowadays every woman has the same rights of a man (except for becoming a pope but what woman would ever wanna be such a thing? besides.. that's religion, they never make sense), rights, not obligations, because those depend on many physical things, and ahh, blessed be that we don't, to be honest.

Btw I am not interested in joining a.. what was it? ah an Organization that fights for men's rights, nor I would join one that attacks women, let's remember I'm a girl too and this wasn't meant to offend or anything like that, if I did then forgive me
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Stick this up your fucking pee-aitch-dee.
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