I'm pretty drunk, so feel free to delete this, but this is something I've been meaning to ask for a while.

All metal is alternative to mainstream culture, so why is this different from other metal? Hell, this 'alternative' metal may be the most recognized metal on the radio to the non-exclusive metal listener.

Heavy Metal is the most basic (starting point) for all metal and most likely contains the most fans. Followed by thrash and power in terms of popularity; these groups are pretty mainstream for metal music.

Death metal or at least metal with harsh vocals fills up a smaller segment than either heavy, thrash or power and definitely has less fans than any of the previous music choices (though this site may differ).

Black metal, which puts death metal to shame with its creepiness, is even further away from the mainstream culture, or fuck, even the mainstream metal culture.

So shouldn't black metal and death metal be labeled alternative metal? Or is alternative metal, the alternative of 'true \ underground metal'?

Thank you. Donuts and roses for all.

The etymology to alternative rock is a bit mixed up, I guess?. Look up any bands considered to be alt-rock nowadays. Not even close to death or black metal.

Kind of like emo. It has mutated into something different and unrelated.

Alternative metal is an alternative to the mainstream of metal. They are generally pretty marginal bands in the metal scene, and don't have the kind of established genre tradition behind them as black metal or power metal bands do.

It's not a very good or descriptive term (and it's not that widely used), but it points out the relation of these "alt-metal" bands to the metal mainstream.

Written by IronAngel on 24.02.2012 at 12:11

Alternative metal is an alternative to the mainstream of metal. They are generally pretty marginal bands in the metal scene, and don't have the kind of established genre tradition behind them as black metal or power metal bands do.

It's not a very good or descriptive term (and it's not that widely used), but it points out the relation of these "alt-metal" bands to the metal mainstream.

My understanding is somewhat the opposite; they encompass the more mainstream variants that inhabit metal, deriving themselves from the likes of grunge, nu-metal and such (and most certainly include those genres as well). They tend to be characterised by heavy rock riffs, somewhat aggressive yet non-harsh vocals, that also frequently include clean vocals, but again, not in an overtly melodic sense of the term i.e. no classic pop singing. Also tend to include enough deviation and experimentation from hard rock. Typical bands would include System of a Down (who are too broad in style to be accurately called nu-metal), Helmet, Therapy?, Faith No More, new-era Deftones, and so forth.

This is just guesswork and personal perspective however. "Alternative" metal is rather an umbrella term more than anything that incorporates any relatively mainstream (sounding anyway) style of heavy rock and metal that don't lend themselves to more defined classifications.

I imagine Jupitreas could define this better. In fact I'm sure I've seen him do so a number of times on here.

But isn't that sort of cross-over aesthetic an alternative to the mainsteam of metal (because as I'm sure you agree, even the big bands you mentioned are still marginal in the metal scene) and specifically because it isn't based on any pure/in-bred tradition of metal? But yeah, it does seem most of alternative metal flirts with the mainstream of rock music in general. From that perspective, it could be a fresh alternative to the obscure, unattractive old metal that wouldn't fit into the radio or big festivals.

Written by IronAngel on 24.02.2012 at 13:28

But isn't that sort of cross-over aesthetic an alternative to the mainsteam of metal (because as I'm sure you agree, even the big bands you mentioned are still marginal in the metal scene) and specifically because it isn't based on any pure/in-bred tradition of metal? But yeah, it does seem most of alternative metal flirts with the mainstream of rock music in general. From that perspective, it could be a fresh alternative to the obscure, unattractive old metal that wouldn't fit into the radio or big festivals.

I dunno, it depends what you mean by mainstream of metal really. That conjures up different images. It could be metalcore in this day age, or it could be thrash or power metal depending on where your definitions of metal lie (many metalheads would snort at the idea of considering nu-metal an actual metal genre, even though it clearly is). If you mean that they inhabit a corridor or sorts between what is metal and what is mainstream rock then yeah, I suppose that could be the case.

Alternative metal is really hard to pin down as far as a definition is concerned because so many of the band's under it's classification sound so different. I mean you could literally call anything from Deftones, Alice In Chains, to modern Katatonia alternative metal. I think a lot of alternative bands can be seen as experimental with their sound in some form and I think whether or not a punk element is audible in the music, alternative bands usually have some kind of do-it-yourself or independent ethos similar to that of the punk movement. But yeah, there seems to be this weird void between rock and metal where alternative bands exist.

I've heard that alt metal bands play in sertain way so it doesn't fit any established metal genre....so any band that doesn't fit in but sounds like metal is an alt. metal band.

Written by arwestromen on 07.06.2012 at 14:21
I've heard that alt metal bands play in sertain way so it doesn't fit any established metal genre....so any band that doesn't fit in but sounds like metal is an alt. metal band.

What about experimental or avant-garde metal bands? Before djent and blackgaze were being used you wouldn't have lumped those bands into the alt-metal spectrum either.

Written by Guest on 24.02.2012 at 13:19

Written by IronAngel on 24.02.2012 at 12:11

Alternative metal is an alternative to the mainstream of metal. They are generally pretty marginal bands in the metal scene, and don't have the kind of established genre tradition behind them as black metal or power metal bands do.

It's not a very good or descriptive term (and it's not that widely used), but it points out the relation of these "alt-metal" bands to the metal mainstream.

My understanding is somewhat the opposite; they encompass the more mainstream variants that inhabit metal

I agree, and bands like Faith No More and Mr. Bungle tend to focus on thematic trends as opposed to genre-defining characteristics.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 07.06.2012 at 15:54

Written by arwestromen on 07.06.2012 at 14:21
I've heard that alt metal bands play in sertain way so it doesn't fit any established metal genre....so any band that doesn't fit in but sounds like metal is an alt. metal band.

What about experimental or avant-garde metal bands? Before djent and blackgaze were being used you wouldn't have lumped those bands into the alt-metal spectrum either.

Well experimental and avantgarde is kinda established genres aren't they? havent heard of djent and Blackgaze tho

I would say that alternative metal is defined by not having the conventional metal sound. Most of the big 'alternative' bands are constantly accused of not actually being metal (System Of A Down, Avenged Sevenfold, Slipknot, Korn, Trivium, the St.Anger era of Metallica etc.). So I think it is perhaps a genre that is leaning closer towards mainstream rock than metal.

I think it originally stemmed from alternative bands (those that represented the, well, alternative, to standard top-40. the stuff of 120 Minutes, Post Modern, Never Mind The Mainstream) of the late 80's and 90's that started incorporating more metal into their music. Jane's Addiction and Faith No More come to mind.

It's sort of a catch all tag (at least here) for bands that don't seem to subscribe to any set form of metal. which is why both Iron and Joe are correct in their assertions.

Nu-Metal, Metalcore acts figure in this (wide and loosely defined) umbrella - they are a metal alternative that are not conventional radio music, nor traditional metal.

Additionally acts that are undeniably metal but don't fit in elsewhere get shunted here.

20 years ago alternative music encapsulated stuff like Jane's Addiction (metal), MC900 Foot Jesus (rap), The Church (more traditional alternative/college rock), Ministry (synth pop to industrial metal), and They Might Be Giants (two dudes, a bunch of toys, a marching bass drum, and an accordion) ... so I don't have any problems resolving the inconsistencies in what defines alternative "metal".


and a prior topic debating why bands are unpopular - and eventually what makes the genre the genre can be found here ... good times.

Written by arwestromen on 08.06.2012 at 13:09
Well experimental and avantgarde is kinda established genres aren't they? havent heard of djent and Blackgaze tho

Experimental isn't an established sound - it's an established adjective. It describes an already established sound.

For example, look at black metal. Taake = black metal. Master's Hammer = experimental black metal. Avant-garde isn't a specific sound either, it's basically a catch-all term for any envelope-pushing, forward-thinking, unorthodox music.

As for djent, it's basically a specified type of math metal based on the Meshuggah guitar sound. Blackgaze is a mix of shoegaze and atmospheric black metal.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.06.2012 at 01:14

Taake = black metal. Master's Hammer = experimental black metal.

Taake did have a banjo feature in one of their songs. Doesn't get much more experimental than that.

Written by Zombie94 on 09.06.2012 at 01:47
Taake did have a banjo feature in one of their songs. Doesn't get much more experimental than that.

I don't think a 30-second banjo riff qualifies as experimental. By that logic Glorior Belli are the most experimental band in history.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 09.06.2012 at 01:50

Written by Zombie94 on 09.06.2012 at 01:47
Taake did have a banjo feature in one of their songs. Doesn't get much more experimental than that.

I don't think a 30-second banjo riff qualifies as experimental. By that logic Glorior Belli are the most experimental band in history.

It was a joke Taake are pretty straightforward black metal. And I've never listened to Glorior Belli, though I've heard of them.

Written by Zombie94 on 09.06.2012 at 01:56
It was a joke

Ya I got the joke I just wanted to point out on a serious note that a simple banjo passage doesn't qualify a band as experimental.

From what I can tell, alternative metal tends to be metal that doesn't quite fit anywhere else. It's not melodic enough to be Power or progressive and it's not insane enough to be black, death or grind. Or it is insane, but just not in the way black death or grind are. Or it is melodic, but in a nontraditional way. A lot of these bands are influenced by aspects of metal and just do something else. Some are firmly metal, just hard to classify. Or they are just a sludge metal band because they all seem to be discussed here.

I would say this: I do not believe, at least according to this forum, alternative means 'alternative to the mainstream.' I think the most mainstream metal bands aside from Maiden and Metallica fall under this genre including Mastodon and Slipknot and whoever else. Perhaps it doesn't mean 'alternative to the mainstream' as much as 'alternative to the classic metal traditions.'

I think what it means seems to depend on where you're coming from. I've actually heard Nickelback referred to as "alternative metal." I don't even think they're metal, although I've heard some surprisingly down-tuned guitars in their songs even on the radio, not that that qualifies them as automatically metal. But it seems in that case that they're being referred to as alternative metal because occasionally they get a little too heavy to be safely referred to as rock. On top of that, although I'd say Nickelback is pretty mainstream, they seem to have a sort of alternative aesthetic that prevents them from being regarded as completely mainstream. So from the point of view of the mainstream press/companies/etc. they become "alternative metal" because they're still sort of alternative and too heavy to just be rock.

Of course, that sounds pretty ridiculous to most of us. Based on what most of the people here listen to, there's nothing at all alternative about Nickelback and to call them metal is a little bit suspect. So to our way of thinking I guess, alternative metal is any metal that's alternative to mainstream metal as said before.

Band's that fused Alternative rock with heavy metal in the early 90s like Tool, Helmet, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Faith No More, Primus and Jane's Addiction are Alternative metal, and in a lot of ways Alternative metal is pretty similar to grunge (which also fuses alternative rock with heavy metal) which is why there tends to be a bit of overlap between the two genres. It seems these days "Alternative metal" is just used as a blanket term for Nu metal

I would say that alt metal is metal the average person would be able to listen to.

also alt metal and nu metal were closely linkied in the late 90's and early 2000's so it gets kind of fuzzy. go look up alt metal bands then look up nu metal bands and 5 out of 10 of the bands listed will be in both lists.

Written by Chaosjunkie on 21.09.2012 at 23:07

I would say that alt metal is metal the average person would be able to listen to.

I want to see an "average person" sit through this:

Written by Uldreth on 22.09.2012 at 01:00

Written by Chaosjunkie on 21.09.2012 at 23:07

I would say that alt metal is metal the average person would be able to listen to.

I want to see an "average person" sit through this:

dude nuerosis is not alternative metal. alt metal is sevendust, spineshank, 10 years etc. etc.etc. what would make you think nuerosis is alt metal??? nuerosis is considered post-metal.

And post-metal is a subtype of alternative metal just like sludge or stoner is which are not accessible genres in any way.

Written by Uldreth on 22.09.2012 at 01:16

And post-metal is a subtype of alternative metal just like sludge or stoner is which are not accessible genres in any way.

stoner is hardly a subtype of alt metal in my opinion. or sludge or post. stoner is more 70's era rock influenced. post metal is nothing even remotely close to alt metal. i cant really speak on sludge as i really have never listened to much of it. but idk maybe im wrong. its happened before.

btw i think stoner is very accessible. especially to people who were into 70's era hard rock.

Alt metal is a vague term that is hard to define and these genres definitely go into it.

Maybe some stoner is very accessible but bands like Om or Shrinebuilder are not.
Most but not all post-metal is synonymous with atmospheric sludge so if sludge belongs here then so does post-metal.

Go back into the alternative metal sub forum and you will see lots of stoner/sludge/post topics there, since they belong here

Written by Guest on 24.02.2012 at 13:19

My understanding is somewhat the opposite; they encompass the more mainstream variants that inhabit metal, deriving themselves from the likes of grunge, nu-metal and such (and most certainly include those genres as well). They tend to be characterised by heavy rock riffs, somewhat aggressive yet non-harsh vocals, that also frequently include clean vocals, but again, not in an overtly melodic sense of the term i.e. no classic pop singing. Also tend to include enough deviation and experimentation from hard rock. Typical bands would include System of a Down (who are too broad in style to be accurately called nu-metal), Helmet, Therapy?, Faith No More, new-era Deftones, and so forth.

This is just guesswork and personal perspective however. "Alternative" metal is rather an umbrella term more than anything that incorporates any relatively mainstream (sounding anyway) style of heavy rock and metal that don't lend themselves to more defined classifications.

Right on. Basically most modern mainstream-style metal not including melodic metal (e.g., power, symphonic, gothic).

If there's enough deviation from anything else, then it's usually just called avant-garde or experimental metal, but there's also the style of post-metal that is also commonly called "experimental metal," and it's a lot more atmospheric than anything.... But I'm not one to ask about stuff quite that far off the beaten path.... Just that that underground stuff doesn't qualify as "alt-metal" lol

Perhaps these guys could answer your question:

udisturb.bandcamp.com

Progressive. Post metal / alternative ,whatever you wanna call it . Brooklyn quintet from Brazil putting out some pretty interesting shit. they even put samba in their music ahah.

People always tell me I listen to alternative metal, but I think a lot of my favorite bands sound SO different. So I guess I don't have an answer to this question.