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The original post

Posted by on 10.11.2006 at 22:01
I wasn't sure about posting this.. But I'm really willing to see other people's opinions in this situation than just my schoolmates.

Here's something to discuss:
- What kind of action should different big nations and unions (UN, USA, EU, etc.) actually take in the different situations that are happening over there?
- On who's side are you? Israel's or Palestine's? Why?
- What should be done on Iran? How could we be sure of the true intentions of Iran's nuclear plans?
- What do you think about Iraq's current situation? Was Saddams death penalty justified?
- How non-religious would you consider the different conflicts?
- Would you consider peace in the Middle-East as a realistic dream?

Please, discuss. Oh, and remember, no spamming, no stupidity what so ever. State your opinions calmly and try to be an adult.



Page 25 of 25

Rasputin

Posts: 415
From: USA
  16.06.2015 at 21:08
Written by deadone on 16.06.2015 at 03:16

Written by Bad English on 16.06.2015 at 03:04

Well time proved Liberation is better Slo, Cro is in EU and are better life quality


As always you have it all wrong.

Living standards in Croatia are still poorer than they were during Yugoslavia. Country is now more corrupt than many African states. There are virtually no jobs (unemployment is over 18% and that doesn't count under-employed). Most industries have shut down and there is now lots of crime.

But you haven't got a clue and just spurt the "EU is awesome, drink the cool aid" line.

Quote:
and you never know, maybe if Serbia let them go even war be, media wont made it so negative



If you had a clue, you'd know the nationalists were attacking Serbs and purging Serbs before the war started. Serb nationalists were doing the same. (i.e. 1989, the war started in 1991).

I was there and remember bombs going off before the war started. I remember witnessing anti-Serb rioting and looting before the war started.

Franjo Tudman and his Croatian nationalists wanted the Serbs out just like the Serbian nationalists wanted a greater Serbia.

Thank you for speaking the truth, you get even more respect from me now, not that you give a shit, but still, you are the first person to openly say the truth. You are right, Serbian Nationalists wanted Greater Serbia, but I think they were aiming for the territory that was given up in exchange for the Kingdom of Serbs, Slovenes and Croats and of course Bosnia. And from what I remember, it was mainly the leaders, Slobodan Milosevic and his mafia that wanted that, the majority of people did not want war. Theoretically, there was already a Greater Serbia by formation of Yugoslavia, but that is another story. Franjo Tudjman and his cohorts were mafiosos as well and did not give a shit, didn't he sell parts of Croatia to Italy? It was a clusterfuck on all sides.

And yeah, I stopped taking Bad English seriously, there is not point in explaining stuff to him. I just love it when people who have not been there and saw it firsthand what actually happened continue to spew nonsense from the authority perspective like "this happened." Same thing as the Srebrenica thing, everyone goes up in arms how it was Genocide, no, it was a massacre, but no one asks what provoked it. No one mentions over 3000 Serbian civilians ethnically cleansed by Naser Oric and his men.

EU is great, if you live in Germany maybe, I have not seen any country to even include Slovenia doing so well either, yes they are in a better position then Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia but still, they are nowhere near where they should have been for joining the EU.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6332
From: Australia

  17.06.2015 at 02:17
Written by Rasputin on 16.06.2015 at 21:08


EU is great, if you live in Germany maybe, I have not seen any country to even include Slovenia doing so well either, yes they are in a better position then Croatia



Slovenia was in a better position overall before the wars anyhow. From what my parents say, they were always separate from the rest of the Yugoslavs and regarded as somewhat uppity.

And Franjo never sold a chunk of Croatia to Italy. He and his family were involved in many shady deals selling chunks of Croatian infrastructure to various cronies etc, including some of my family members who were HDZ members.
Rasputin

Posts: 415
From: USA
  18.06.2015 at 05:42
Written by deadone on 17.06.2015 at 02:17

Written by Rasputin on 16.06.2015 at 21:08


EU is great, if you live in Germany maybe, I have not seen any country to even include Slovenia doing so well either, yes they are in a better position then Croatia



Slovenia was in a better position overall before the wars anyhow. From what my parents say, they were always separate from the rest of the Yugoslavs and regarded as somewhat uppity.

And Franjo never sold a chunk of Croatia to Italy. He and his family were involved in many shady deals selling chunks of Croatian infrastructure to various cronies etc, including some of my family members who were HDZ members.

Being influenced by Austria, and being so close to the actual rich Europe it is not surprise there. Plus, they did not have so many political issues and wars like the rest of the Balkans.

Thanks for the info.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6332
From: Australia

  18.06.2015 at 06:12
Written by Rasputin on 18.06.2015 at 05:42

Being influenced by Austria, and being so close to the actual rich Europe it is not surprise there. Plus, they did not have so many political issues and wars like the rest of the Balkans.


The benefits of cultural hegemony.
Rasputin

Posts: 415
From: USA
  18.06.2015 at 09:40
Written by deadone on 18.06.2015 at 06:12

Written by Rasputin on 18.06.2015 at 05:42

Being influenced by Austria, and being so close to the actual rich Europe it is not surprise there. Plus, they did not have so many political issues and wars like the rest of the Balkans.


The benefits of cultural hegemony.

The Balkans will never have that, it will be like Middle East, war war war, until everyone kills everyone or the end of the world comes in one form or another.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6332
From: Australia

  18.06.2015 at 09:49
Written by Rasputin on 18.06.2015 at 09:40


The Balkans will never have that, it will be like Middle East, war war war, until everyone kills everyone or the end of the world comes in one form or another.



I suspect they'll have peace for the time being. They're all too broke to wage war. If you teleported Hitler's 1941 vintage Wehrmacht into 2015, they'd be able to invade most of Eastern Europe without any major losses, such is the miserable state of these countries defences.


One of the great ironies of the military-industrial complex is that it's made weapons so expensive, most countries can't afford to buy them or maintain them. So they give up on the capability all together.

Tis why a few deranged numbnuts with AK-47s can cause such havoc.
Rasputin

Posts: 415
From: USA
  19.06.2015 at 02:44
Written by deadone on 18.06.2015 at 09:49

Written by Rasputin on 18.06.2015 at 09:40


The Balkans will never have that, it will be like Middle East, war war war, until everyone kills everyone or the end of the world comes in one form or another.



I suspect they'll have peace for the time being. They're all too broke to wage war. If you teleported Hitler's 1941 vintage Wehrmacht into 2015, they'd be able to invade most of Eastern Europe without any major losses, such is the miserable state of these countries defences.


One of the great ironies of the military-industrial complex is that it's made weapons so expensive, most countries can't afford to buy them or maintain them. So they give up on the capability all together.

Tis why a few deranged numbnuts with AK-47s can cause such havoc.

I think it will happen, but not the way we expect it. You are right, the state is miserable, however, how much ammo and how many AK's do you need to start up shit. KLA is operating in full force, there are people all over that have weapons stashed just in case, and ultimately it will not be necessarily country versus country, but paramilitary versus paramilitary.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6332
From: Australia

  19.06.2015 at 02:55
Written by Rasputin on 19.06.2015 at 02:44

, how much ammo and how many AK's do you need to start up shit.


Not many really, especially if the target government is weak and lacking in willingess to fight. Look at Boko Haram in Nigeria. A country with hige oil reserves, 178 million people and one of the largest militaries in Africa and a few Islamist hundred nutters initially caused massive chaos and nearly caused the government to collapse.

Same happened in Iraq as well following US pull out - hey I've brought us back on topic.
Rasputin

Posts: 415
From: USA
  19.06.2015 at 08:11
Written by deadone on 19.06.2015 at 02:55

Written by Rasputin on 19.06.2015 at 02:44

, how much ammo and how many AK's do you need to start up shit.


Not many really, especially if the target government is weak and lacking in willingess to fight. Look at Boko Haram in Nigeria. A country with hige oil reserves, 178 million people and one of the largest militaries in Africa and a few Islamist hundred nutters initially caused massive chaos and nearly caused the government to collapse.

Same happened in Iraq as well following US pull out - hey I've brought us back on topic.

Excellent. The Iraqi military and government are not keen on fighting CIA creations Al Qaeda and ISIS. One part is that the government is a puppet regime, and the other that they know that they might get it worse if USA chooses to leave and get engaged somewhere else. Plus, most borders down there are bullshit to begin with, so each country has a desire to control another territory. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan... take your pick. Middle East will be fucked for a long while, or at least until more dictators take power, since in comparison of couple of thousand they kill each year, is nothing compared to how many are dying now. So, lesser evil, maybe? I don't know.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6332
From: Australia

  19.06.2015 at 09:15
Written by Rasputin on 19.06.2015 at 08:11

Excellent. The Iraqi military and government are not keen on fighting CIA creations Al Qaeda and ISIS. One part is that the government is a puppet regime,


Yes an Iranian puppet regime. The US lost most of its influence even while their troops were there. Sectarian loyalty overrides even Yankee dollars.


Quote:

Plus, most borders down there are bullshit to begin with, so each country has a desire to control another territory. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan... take your pick. Middle East will be fucked for a long while, or at least until more dictators take power, since in comparison of couple of thousand they kill each year, is nothing compared to how many are dying now. So, lesser evil, maybe? I don't know.


Pretty much.

Iraq in itself is a figment of European colonial immagination. In reality it's Kurdistan, Shiastan and Sunnistan. No Shia really wants to die for Kurds or Sunnis or vice versa.

Indeed any Sunni towns that are "liberated" from ISIS by Kurds or Shias are being ethnically cleansed of their Sunni populations.

Several things amaze me about whole ISIS thing:

1. Other than Kurds, Iran and Syrian government, no-one gives a damn about really fighting ISIS. The US commitment to this war is pathetic as is just about everyone's elses be it the Iraqis, the Saudis, the Jordanians etc.

2. There is no talk about a post-war Iraq. It somehow assumes the status quo will be maintained despite no changes in Iraqi government attitudes to Sunni majorities and the Kurds/Shias ethnically cleansing any town or village they come to. I suspect if ISIS is defeated in Iraq, there won't be any Sunnis left either (and then I wonder what Saudi Arabia will do).

3. There's no real roadmap for how to progress with Syria either, save train some rebels of dubious loyalty.
Rasputin

Posts: 415
From: USA
  19.06.2015 at 10:01
Written by deadone on 19.06.2015 at 09:15

Written by Rasputin on 19.06.2015 at 08:11

Excellent. The Iraqi military and government are not keen on fighting CIA creations Al Qaeda and ISIS. One part is that the government is a puppet regime,


Yes an Iranian puppet regime. The US lost most of its influence even while their troops were there. Sectarian loyalty overrides even Yankee dollars.


Quote:

Plus, most borders down there are bullshit to begin with, so each country has a desire to control another territory. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan... take your pick. Middle East will be fucked for a long while, or at least until more dictators take power, since in comparison of couple of thousand they kill each year, is nothing compared to how many are dying now. So, lesser evil, maybe? I don't know.


Pretty much.

Iraq in itself is a figment of European colonial immagination. In reality it's Kurdistan, Shiastan and Sunnistan. No Shia really wants to die for Kurds or Sunnis or vice versa.

Indeed any Sunni towns that are "liberated" from ISIS by Kurds or Shias are being ethnically cleansed of their Sunni populations.

Several things amaze me about whole ISIS thing:

1. Other than Kurds, Iran and Syrian government, no-one gives a damn about really fighting ISIS. The US commitment to this war is pathetic as is just about everyone's elses be it the Iraqis, the Saudis, the Jordanians etc.

2. There is no talk about a post-war Iraq. It somehow assumes the status quo will be maintained despite no changes in Iraqi government attitudes to Sunni majorities and the Kurds/Shias ethnically cleansing any town or village they come to. I suspect if ISIS is defeated in Iraq, there won't be any Sunnis left either (and then I wonder what Saudi Arabia will do).

3. There's no real roadmap for how to progress with Syria either, save train some rebels of dubious loyalty.

Agreed, but I think the puppet regime stems from other directions as well, but yes Iran is a part of it, however, Iran is not as much of a threat as we think it is. The issue is purely political with them, meaning, there are only half truths and distorted stories that are being peddled in the mainstream media. Iranian government is nuts, but their people, their way of life an the country as a whole is a bizarre place. Bourdain just did a tour there in his "Parts Unknown" series, and it was fascinating to see how complex everything is there.

ISIS is a very useful tool, for the USA and for the rest of the countries down there. For USA, they were a relatively cheap way of getting rid of dictators they did not like, which further destabilized the region and made it open for exploitation by corporations and neighbor countries. At the same time, they replaced the Al Qaeda/Saddam Hussein/Gaddafi/Mubarak etc., and that way it always gives an excuse for the USA to be there. As far as the nearby countries are concerned, ISIS creates enough havoc for them to come in and take chunks of land and resources for themselves, so why would they fight their fellow Muslims, regardless how crazy they are, until they actually pose a threat to them.

Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Lebanon and almost any country down there that does not have strong leadership will cease to exist. Iraq especially, since you are right, with all those sides against each other, it was only thanks to a dictator that some order was established, you remove that, and it is chaos. I would not be surprised to see several smaller states being formed in the end, if the fighting ever stops, but I doubt that it will. The political vacuum needs to be filled, and until a new dictator rises, or gets placed there, this mess will continue and spill over to the surrounding countries.

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