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The original post

Posted by on 10.11.2006 at 22:01
I wasn't sure about posting this.. But I'm really willing to see other people's opinions in this situation than just my schoolmates.

Here's something to discuss:
- What kind of action should different big nations and unions (UN, USA, EU, etc.) actually take in the different situations that are happening over there?
- On who's side are you? Israel's or Palestine's? Why?
- What should be done on Iran? How could we be sure of the true intentions of Iran's nuclear plans?
- What do you think about Iraq's current situation? Was Saddams death penalty justified?
- How non-religious would you consider the different conflicts?
- Would you consider peace in the Middle-East as a realistic dream?

Please, discuss. Oh, and remember, no spamming, no stupidity what so ever. State your opinions calmly and try to be an adult.



Page 20 of 20

Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  28.05.2015 at 09:59
USA created ISIS, created Al Qaeda but it is allegedly fighting terrorism. We are still funding the fuckers and arming them, and we are there for the economic reasons nothing more, the problem is, it is not going as we planned. The new governments are not strong enough to keep people in check like the rest of the dictators that we placed there in the first place and then overthrew when they did not want to play our game. Now the Middle East is in deep shit, and it will continue that for years and years to come.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 814
From: Israel

  28.05.2015 at 11:53
Written by Rasputin on 28.05.2015 at 09:59

USA created ISIS, created Al Qaeda but it is allegedly fighting terrorism. We are still funding the fuckers and arming them, and we are there for the economic reasons nothing more, the problem is, it is not going as we planned. The new governments are not strong enough to keep people in check like the rest of the dictators that we placed there in the first place and then overthrew when they did not want to play our game. Now the Middle East is in deep shit, and it will continue that for years and years to come.


No, the US did not 'create' ISIS. The new Iraqi government (Shia 'oppressing' the Sunnis minority in Iraq) together with ideas that already exited (Al-Qaeda-like ideologies and sectarianism) coupled with Sunni degree of popular support (that is growing as more Shia forces get involved in Iraq from Iran) and funding is what assembled ISIS. The US readied the ground for it by getting rid of Saddam(political vacuum).

The Sunnis that support ISIS, don't ideally support them, they just seem to be out of better options --- especially with the Iranians biting into more terf using their foreign fighters (Revolutionary Guards) and Iranian backed Shia militias (Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan and Iraq).

The proxy wars is currency the best the Iranians and Saudis can achieve, an all-out-war is not yet worth it, for anyone - it just seems the Iranians are doing it longer and better.
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  28.05.2015 at 11:59
Written by Candlemass on 28.05.2015 at 11:53

Written by Rasputin on 28.05.2015 at 09:59

USA created ISIS, created Al Qaeda but it is allegedly fighting terrorism. We are still funding the fuckers and arming them, and we are there for the economic reasons nothing more, the problem is, it is not going as we planned. The new governments are not strong enough to keep people in check like the rest of the dictators that we placed there in the first place and then overthrew when they did not want to play our game. Now the Middle East is in deep shit, and it will continue that for years and years to come.


No, the US did not 'create' ISIS. The new Iraqi government (Shia 'oppressing' the Sunnis minority in Iraq) together with ideas that already exited (Al-Qaeda-like ideologies and sectarianism) coupled with Sunni degree of popular support (that is growing as more Shia forces get involved in Iraq from Iran) and funding is what assembled ISIS. The US readied the ground for it by getting rid of Saddam(political vacuum).

The Sunnis that support ISIS, don't ideally support them, they just seem to be out of better options --- especially with the Iranians biting into more terf using their foreign fighters (Revolutionary Guards) and Iranian backed Shia militias (Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan and Iraq).

The proxy wars is currency the best the Iranians and Saudis can achieve, an all-out-war is not yet worth it, for anyone - it just seems the Iranians are doing it longer and better.

The majority of ISIS consists of the soldiers trained by the USA/NATO and sent with a specific purpose to take down Gaddafi or any other dictator or non compliant Middle Eastern ruler. I agree with you to that extent that there was a lot of fertile grown for the ISIS to grow, but by all accounts they have been trained, funded and at one point (I am still convinced that they are or a part of them is under the USA control) directed by the USA to engage in warfare. Albanians are another example of this, publicly you are not saying anything, covertly you are aiding them.

Do you think it is a coincidence that John McCain spoke with ISIS members and took pictures with them? I don't think so. USA played with fire, and now the plague cannot be stopped.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 814
From: Israel

  28.05.2015 at 13:32
Written by Rasputin on 28.05.2015 at 11:59

The majority of ISIS consists of the soldiers trained by the USA/NATO and sent with a specific purpose to take down Gaddafi or any other dictator or non compliant Middle Eastern ruler. I agree with you to that extent that there was a lot of fertile grown for the ISIS to grow, but by all accounts they have been trained, funded and at one point (I am still convinced that they are or a part of them is under the USA control) directed by the USA to engage in warfare. Albanians are another example of this, publicly you are not saying anything, covertly you are aiding them.

Do you think it is a coincidence that John McCain spoke with ISIS members and took pictures with them? I don't think so. USA played with fire, and now the plague cannot be stopped.


I heavily doubt that and it's relevance especially people who live 6k km away from there.
Causality and blame and the whole point of such a discussion (practical? demonizing?) are quite slippery things. You might blame European colonialism and 'arbitrary' border-making for the power struggles inside these countries which are very sectarian to start with. There is not one major country in this world that is not somehow involved in the affairs of another. Take note for instance where the EU funding or Russian weapons go to.

Eventually there's little anyone can do to solve this war. It runs much more deeper than the US invasion to Iraq and the US, to say the least is not the only country trying to secure it's interests in the area (Western and non-Western).

All these similar claims have 'extra-weight' and background assumptions. Don't buy so fast into anti-American mythology. Most European politics originate in literally - mythology. It might be romantic nationalism (ancient Greece), free will (Mesopotamia), Jew obsession (early Christianity) or anti-Americanism (17-18th centuries).
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  28.05.2015 at 22:43
I am just speaking the truth, and the truth is as it stands, that USA had direct and indirect involvement in creating ISIS, much like it did in creation of Al Qaeda, plain and simple.

Don't know how trustworthy this site is, but I have read a lot of good articles on here, and it showcases the ISIS issue in a nutshell.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-created-al-qaeda-and-the-isis-terror-group/5402881

And even a feminist site gets it half right

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/how-us-helped-isis-grow-monster-iraq-syria-assad

And also, my views are negative in regards to the foreign policy and the meddling that my country is doing and as a citizen of it, I am guaranteed the right to speak my mind, and point out the hypocrisy that has been going on for some time now.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 814
From: Israel

  28.05.2015 at 23:44
Written by Rasputin on 28.05.2015 at 22:43

Don't know how trustworthy this site is, but I have read a lot of good articles on here, and it showcases the ISIS issue in a nutshell.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-created-al-qaeda-and-the-isis-terror-group/5402881

And even a feminist site gets it half right

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/how-us-helped-isis-grow-monster-iraq-syria-assad

And also, my views are negative in regards to the foreign policy and the meddling that my country is doing and as a citizen of it, I am guaranteed the right to speak my mind, and point out the hypocrisy that has been going on for some time now.


Given your opinions in the Islam thread quoting those sources does not hit anyone by surprise.

It's fascinating how an expansionist war by Soviet Russia, Saudi Arabia, the British, China and the Pakistani preferences of who to fund are left out of the picture. By the way, what do intelligence experts think about the evidence of US funding Osama bin Laden? In other words the entire context is left out for a truism to be stacked on another and yet another to provide a certain image - an image of an essence. The essence of the US. An essence beyond any contingent historical natural situations, beyond considerations of different people at different times under different circumstances coupled with the usual statistical biases.

Yes, the US had some terrible decision making, but the world and its issues are not redcuable to the US ("somehow, somewhere it's America's fault") and as far as i know a country does not have an essence.
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  29.05.2015 at 23:25
Written by Candlemass on 28.05.2015 at 23:44

Written by Rasputin on 28.05.2015 at 22:43

Don't know how trustworthy this site is, but I have read a lot of good articles on here, and it showcases the ISIS issue in a nutshell.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-created-al-qaeda-and-the-isis-terror-group/5402881

And even a feminist site gets it half right

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/how-us-helped-isis-grow-monster-iraq-syria-assad

And also, my views are negative in regards to the foreign policy and the meddling that my country is doing and as a citizen of it, I am guaranteed the right to speak my mind, and point out the hypocrisy that has been going on for some time now.


Given your opinions in the Islam thread quoting those sources does not hit anyone by surprise.

It's fascinating how an expansionist war by Soviet Russia, Saudi Arabia, the British, China and the Pakistani preferences of who to fund are left out of the picture. By the way, what do intelligence experts think about the evidence of US funding Osama bin Laden? In other words the entire context is left out for a truism to be stacked on another and yet another to provide a certain image - an image of an essence. The essence of the US. An essence beyond any contingent historical natural situations, beyond considerations of different people at different times under different circumstances coupled with the usual statistical biases.

Yes, the US had some terrible decision making, but the world and its issues are not redcuable to the US ("somehow, somewhere it's America's fault") and as far as i know a country does not have an essence.

USA corporations thrive on war economy, USA has not stopped being at war with someone somewhere, because that not only helps them economically, it also expands the influence. You look at the map and the USA has over 200 bases all around the world now, so in essence it is doing what Rome did. There is always a superpower that claims that they are spreading culture, freedom or some bullshit to justify their actions, USA or any other superpower are no different. USA created the Al Qaeda in the 70-ies and let them go, and the end result we all know. It is not any different with so called ISIS. They keep arming and training these fuckers to allegedly fight dictators or some bullshit, and then these Muslims turn against them and we have what we have. McCain still wants to arm them. It is no coincidence that majority of ISIS videos are filled with US equipment, brand new weapons and vehicles, of course they will thrive when someone is aiding them while allegedly fighting them. It is a dangerous game to play, but it is being played.

@Bad English
I have no fear of that, I have right to speak my mind would you or anyone else like it or not, and I don't care about what goes on in Russia, it is not my concern since I don't live there, but knowing full well how the covert operations operate, I am not surprised that Putin takes drastic measures, because if he did not Russia would end up like Yugoslavia.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  02.06.2015 at 21:59
Written by deadone on 02.06.2015 at 06:36

Written by Rasputin on 29.05.2015 at 23:25

USA corporations thrive on war economy, USA has not stopped being at war with someone somewhere, because that not only helps them economically, it also expands the influence. You look at the map and the USA has over 200 bases all around the world now, so in essence it is doing what Rome did. There is always a superpower that claims that they are spreading culture, freedom or some bullshit to justify their actions, USA or any other superpower are no different. USA created the Al Qaeda in the 70-ies and let them go, and the end result we all know. It is not any different with so called ISIS. They keep arming and training these fuckers to allegedly fight dictators or some bullshit, and then these Muslims turn against them and we have what we have. McCain still wants to arm them. It is no coincidence that majority of ISIS videos are filled with US equipment, brand new weapons and vehicles, of course they will thrive when someone is aiding them while allegedly fighting them. It is a dangerous game to play, but it is being played.



I too am amazed at recent US actions.

Their main international effort since 2001 has been the war on terror. So what do they do:

1. Support Al Qaeda and Islamists in Libya by helping topple Gaddafhi.
2. Support Islamists including ISIS and AQ associated factions in Syria to topple secular Assad.
3. Support Al Qaeda in Yemen by supporting Saudi efforts against anti-AQ Houthis.
4. Even after shit goes pear shaped in Syria/Iraq, they still want to support anti-Assad ops by funding training of "sympathetic" Syrian rebels in Saudi Arabia of all places.

They only figured out ISIS was bad once they started overruning US sponsored Iraq (I won't say puppet state coz Iraq swings towards Iran).

Wow, someone who gets what I am talking about without resorting to "you Hate America" bullshit. I'm very glad you see the same or similar things I do.

This is what I have been saying all along, I guess people disagree on the level of the USA involvement with the whole thing. Like I said before the ISIS/AL Qaeda are direct and indirect product of a terrible USA foreign policy that have virtually alienated everyone but Israel and Albania lol, the rest play the game. Every empire was the most aggressive before it's fall, and USA is heading that way. USA was at peace for only 17 years, so put that into perspective. 222 years were all war driven. I think the reason behind helping these lunatics down there is to perpetuate the state of war that they need, this is why I think the Balkans will be hit again, because USA cannot stop and have peace anymore in any capacity, since everything is tied to war now, considering that the Industry either creates prisons or bombs, take your pick.

I would not say they figure out that ISIS was bad then, they knew from before and they did not care, as long as these nutjobs would be a beneficial tool to overthrow dictators down there, plus let's not discount territorial pretensions from the surrounding states. There is a lot of double dealing going on there, but ultimately there is some form of an interest or else there would not be USA involvement there.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  10.06.2015 at 20:28
Don't mind him deadone, he is trying to provoke an argument. Took me a while to figure out if it was that his English was bad, or that there was something else, well, there is something else.

Fuck Turkey, they are the ones supporting the crazy jihadist shit, they let them pass through, and now we have them in Albania, making their way to Kosovo, Macedonia, Greece and most likely Bulgaria. The Bosnians are waving their flags and "bosnjak" group in Sandzak cannot wait for the return of the Ottoman Empire. I wish Putin did not deal with them.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  11.06.2015 at 23:34
Written by Bad English on 11.06.2015 at 14:57

Written by deadone on 11.06.2015 at 05:39

Written by Rasputin on 10.06.2015 at 20:28

Fuck Turkey, they are the ones supporting the crazy jihadist shit, they let them pass through, and now we have them in Albania, making their way to Kosovo, Macedonia, Greece and most likely Bulgaria. The Bosnians are waving their flags and "bosnjak" group in Sandzak cannot wait for the return of the Ottoman Empire. I wish Putin did not deal with them.



But they like soccer and some drink beer so they must be good and we must ignore their governments' continuous human rights violations etc etc cause they have a large army.

It's funny that BE hates Russia so much for invading chunks of Ukraine, but ignores Turkey's illegal conquest of eastern Cyprus in 1974 or Turkish ongoing threats against Cyprus (as well any non-Turkish oil exploration in the region). But then BE hates Greeks too....


Alpaslan Dickemn was better AltAsdlan leader as Dzoni, Kimi and Kiko was for Grobari and Alcatraz

I don't hate greeks, I think greens don't appreciate belonging to EU is only way , not belonging to orthodox world
Maybe Turkey did bad, but they have non plans occupy my origin country as fuckdars in Krelin wants

Your country is already invaded by Muslims and Feminists, I doubt the Russians are a thing to worry about, unless you fire the first shot.
And you are so pro-EU to the point of insanity, no one profited from the EU bullshit but Germany, England and France, the rest are there to be exploited, but you are too blind to see that because EU is that liberal heaven that will be torn asunder in next 10-20 years.
Written by deadone on 11.06.2015 at 05:39

Written by Rasputin on 10.06.2015 at 20:28

Fuck Turkey, they are the ones supporting the crazy jihadist shit, they let them pass through, and now we have them in Albania, making their way to Kosovo, Macedonia, Greece and most likely Bulgaria. The Bosnians are waving their flags and "bosnjak" group in Sandzak cannot wait for the return of the Ottoman Empire. I wish Putin did not deal with them.



But they like soccer and some drink beer so they must be good and we must ignore their governments' continuous human rights violations etc etc cause they have a large army.

It's funny that BE hates Russia so much for invading chunks of Ukraine, but ignores Turkey's illegal conquest of eastern Cyprus in 1974 or Turkish ongoing threats against Cyprus (as well any non-Turkish oil exploration in the region). But then BE hates Greeks too....

I know, the irony. They are Turks, they don't know any better. I mean it is all good to violate human rights and invade shit far away from your country, that is a legit reason. I think you and I know already to take comments from him with a grain of salt and leave it at that.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  13.06.2015 at 01:26
Deport me for what exactly?
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  13.06.2015 at 05:40
Written by Bad English on 13.06.2015 at 01:36

Written by Rasputin on 13.06.2015 at 01:26

Deport me for what exactly?


to Serbia, Russia,

@dead - but then where are best life quality? Albania, Tajiksitan, Serbia, Russia, or Germany, Scandinavia?

I didn't say where, I asked for the reason of deportation or do you have a difficulty reading English as much as writing it?
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  13.06.2015 at 14:48
Written by Bad English on 13.06.2015 at 12:44

Written by Rasputin on 13.06.2015 at 05:40

Written by Bad English on 13.06.2015 at 01:36

Written by Rasputin on 13.06.2015 at 01:26

Deport me for what exactly?


to Serbia, Russia,

@dead - but then where are best life quality? Albania, Tajiksitan, Serbia, Russia, or Germany, Scandinavia?

I didn't say where, I asked for the reason of deportation or do you have a difficulty reading English as much as writing it?


because you're not loyal and you might do some boming as in Oklokoma ....

Loyal to whom? I think you need to worry more about your friends, the Muslims, about booming something. Plus, McVeigh was a former US soldier, so talk about loyalty.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  14.06.2015 at 04:08
Quote:
Written by Bad English on 13.06.2015 at 16:04

Written by Rasputin on 13.06.2015 at 14:48

because you're not loyal and you might do some boming as in Oklokoma ....

Loyal to whom? I think you need to worry more about your friends, the Muslims, about booming something. Plus, McVeigh was a former US soldier, so talk about loyalty.


loyal to US and NATO and all they do and don't be pro Russian

Why the fuck should I be loyal to NATO? Fuck NATO, NATO bombed my country. I want NATO to be destroyed utterly. And as far as USA goes, I will be with the USA when they are in the right, when they are not, I will not, it is my right as a citizen.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  14.06.2015 at 04:22
Written by Bad English on 14.06.2015 at 04:17

Written by Rasputin on 14.06.2015 at 04:08

Written by Bad English on 13.06.2015 at 16:04


Why the fuck should I be loyal to NATO? Fuck NATO, NATO bombed my country. I want NATO to be destroyed utterly. And as far as USA goes, I will be with the USA when they are in the right, when they are not, I will not, it is my right as a citizen.


then again its double standards , your country is America, if no then move back where you came from .... why you live in US aif you hate it?

Who said I hated US? Again you cannot seem to separate dislike for foreign policy over the dislike for the country. Liking/loving a country and criticizing its moves are two separate things, and maybe some day you will learn that, maybe not. But honestly I don't give what people think, you or anyone else.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 814
From: Israel

  14.06.2015 at 10:31
One of the founders of Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK, Asghar Bukhari, claims the Zionists stole his shoe on facebook post.

As opposed to the EU funded NGOs and pundit-media a group of multinational Generals and top-politicians "Israel not only met a reasonable international standard of observance of the laws of armed conflict, but in many cases significantly exceeded that standard."

Which is exactly part of the mistake. The other mistake is, contra NATO policies or Norway, is to judge soldier misconduct.



Written by Rasputin on 14.06.2015 at 04:22

honestly I don't give what people think, you or anyone else.


That may be part of the problem.
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  14.06.2015 at 14:40
Written by Candlemass on 14.06.2015 at 10:31

One of the founders of Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK, Asghar Bukhari, claims the Zionists stole his shoe on facebook post.

As opposed to the EU funded NGOs and pundit-media a group of multinational Generals and top-politicians "Israel not only met a reasonable international standard of observance of the laws of armed conflict, but in many cases significantly exceeded that standard."

Which is exactly part of the mistake. The other mistake is, contra NATO policies or Norway, is to judge soldier misconduct.



Written by Rasputin on 14.06.2015 at 04:22

honestly I don't give what people think, you or anyone else.


That maybe part of the problem.

That is never a problem
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  15.06.2015 at 21:05
Written by Bad English on 15.06.2015 at 13:00

You are telling me facts like I am an idiot and don't know
I am pissing of rasp whit nato, legal way how piss people off is nato and isreal support,

Rasp complains muslims come here and abuse system , but what does he same. His country is USA , not Serbia, if he likes Serbia why don't leave it
I know Balkan war was mistake, even separation could be friendly, mostly war is Serbian blame, but later bombings in Yugo was mistake, all sides done war crimes. But he shoud respect where he lives or move away

Nato idea was keep germans in order, usa in and soviets out

last time Europe saw war was WWII grandpas did saw it, Balkans was regional. if NATO wont exist soviets would take all Europe, and now VP would take all as well, each country separately would fall

I hope war never happens, but comparinmg mid east and N Africa yes NATO fucked up but only who did most fuck up was George, rest followed in Iraq. Lybia was France , Sarkozy is WP man, he made it on purpose to help VP crush NATO (new theory LOL)

Alone we would be dead and it defends our ideas all what western world stands for

You think you are pissing me off? LMAO.

Muslims do abuse the system, if you are blind and stupid not to see that, that is your problem. Serbia to blame for the war? Wow, typical EU ignoramus. I am glad that you fuckers up north are such experts on the subject, considering that several countries from your orgy called EU were responsible for funding and pushing for the conflict, but oh well, eat some more ludafisk and shut up before the Ruskis invade
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  16.06.2015 at 21:08
Written by deadone on 16.06.2015 at 03:16

Written by Bad English on 16.06.2015 at 03:04

Well time proved Liberation is better Slo, Cro is in EU and are better life quality


As always you have it all wrong.

Living standards in Croatia are still poorer than they were during Yugoslavia. Country is now more corrupt than many African states. There are virtually no jobs (unemployment is over 18% and that doesn't count under-employed). Most industries have shut down and there is now lots of crime.

But you haven't got a clue and just spurt the "EU is awesome, drink the cool aid" line.

Quote:
and you never know, maybe if Serbia let them go even war be, media wont made it so negative



If you had a clue, you'd know the nationalists were attacking Serbs and purging Serbs before the war started. Serb nationalists were doing the same. (i.e. 1989, the war started in 1991).

I was there and remember bombs going off before the war started. I remember witnessing anti-Serb rioting and looting before the war started.

Franjo Tudman and his Croatian nationalists wanted the Serbs out just like the Serbian nationalists wanted a greater Serbia.

Thank you for speaking the truth, you get even more respect from me now, not that you give a shit, but still, you are the first person to openly say the truth. You are right, Serbian Nationalists wanted Greater Serbia, but I think they were aiming for the territory that was given up in exchange for the Kingdom of Serbs, Slovenes and Croats and of course Bosnia. And from what I remember, it was mainly the leaders, Slobodan Milosevic and his mafia that wanted that, the majority of people did not want war. Theoretically, there was already a Greater Serbia by formation of Yugoslavia, but that is another story. Franjo Tudjman and his cohorts were mafiosos as well and did not give a shit, didn't he sell parts of Croatia to Italy? It was a clusterfuck on all sides.

And yeah, I stopped taking Bad English seriously, there is not point in explaining stuff to him. I just love it when people who have not been there and saw it firsthand what actually happened continue to spew nonsense from the authority perspective like "this happened." Same thing as the Srebrenica thing, everyone goes up in arms how it was Genocide, no, it was a massacre, but no one asks what provoked it. No one mentions over 3000 Serbian civilians ethnically cleansed by Naser Oric and his men.

EU is great, if you live in Germany maybe, I have not seen any country to even include Slovenia doing so well either, yes they are in a better position then Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia but still, they are nowhere near where they should have been for joining the EU.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  18.06.2015 at 05:42
Written by deadone on 17.06.2015 at 02:17

Written by Rasputin on 16.06.2015 at 21:08


EU is great, if you live in Germany maybe, I have not seen any country to even include Slovenia doing so well either, yes they are in a better position then Croatia



Slovenia was in a better position overall before the wars anyhow. From what my parents say, they were always separate from the rest of the Yugoslavs and regarded as somewhat uppity.

And Franjo never sold a chunk of Croatia to Italy. He and his family were involved in many shady deals selling chunks of Croatian infrastructure to various cronies etc, including some of my family members who were HDZ members.

Being influenced by Austria, and being so close to the actual rich Europe it is not surprise there. Plus, they did not have so many political issues and wars like the rest of the Balkans.

Thanks for the info.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  18.06.2015 at 09:40
Written by deadone on 18.06.2015 at 06:12

Written by Rasputin on 18.06.2015 at 05:42

Being influenced by Austria, and being so close to the actual rich Europe it is not surprise there. Plus, they did not have so many political issues and wars like the rest of the Balkans.


The benefits of cultural hegemony.

The Balkans will never have that, it will be like Middle East, war war war, until everyone kills everyone or the end of the world comes in one form or another.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  19.06.2015 at 02:44
Written by deadone on 18.06.2015 at 09:49

Written by Rasputin on 18.06.2015 at 09:40


The Balkans will never have that, it will be like Middle East, war war war, until everyone kills everyone or the end of the world comes in one form or another.



I suspect they'll have peace for the time being. They're all too broke to wage war. If you teleported Hitler's 1941 vintage Wehrmacht into 2015, they'd be able to invade most of Eastern Europe without any major losses, such is the miserable state of these countries defences.


One of the great ironies of the military-industrial complex is that it's made weapons so expensive, most countries can't afford to buy them or maintain them. So they give up on the capability all together.

Tis why a few deranged numbnuts with AK-47s can cause such havoc.

I think it will happen, but not the way we expect it. You are right, the state is miserable, however, how much ammo and how many AK's do you need to start up shit. KLA is operating in full force, there are people all over that have weapons stashed just in case, and ultimately it will not be necessarily country versus country, but paramilitary versus paramilitary.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  19.06.2015 at 08:11
Written by deadone on 19.06.2015 at 02:55

Written by Rasputin on 19.06.2015 at 02:44

, how much ammo and how many AK's do you need to start up shit.


Not many really, especially if the target government is weak and lacking in willingess to fight. Look at Boko Haram in Nigeria. A country with hige oil reserves, 178 million people and one of the largest militaries in Africa and a few Islamist hundred nutters initially caused massive chaos and nearly caused the government to collapse.

Same happened in Iraq as well following US pull out - hey I've brought us back on topic.

Excellent. The Iraqi military and government are not keen on fighting CIA creations Al Qaeda and ISIS. One part is that the government is a puppet regime, and the other that they know that they might get it worse if USA chooses to leave and get engaged somewhere else. Plus, most borders down there are bullshit to begin with, so each country has a desire to control another territory. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan... take your pick. Middle East will be fucked for a long while, or at least until more dictators take power, since in comparison of couple of thousand they kill each year, is nothing compared to how many are dying now. So, lesser evil, maybe? I don't know.
Rasputin

Posts: 559
From: Russia

  19.06.2015 at 10:01
Written by deadone on 19.06.2015 at 09:15

Written by Rasputin on 19.06.2015 at 08:11

Excellent. The Iraqi military and government are not keen on fighting CIA creations Al Qaeda and ISIS. One part is that the government is a puppet regime,


Yes an Iranian puppet regime. The US lost most of its influence even while their troops were there. Sectarian loyalty overrides even Yankee dollars.


Quote:

Plus, most borders down there are bullshit to begin with, so each country has a desire to control another territory. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan... take your pick. Middle East will be fucked for a long while, or at least until more dictators take power, since in comparison of couple of thousand they kill each year, is nothing compared to how many are dying now. So, lesser evil, maybe? I don't know.


Pretty much.

Iraq in itself is a figment of European colonial immagination. In reality it's Kurdistan, Shiastan and Sunnistan. No Shia really wants to die for Kurds or Sunnis or vice versa.

Indeed any Sunni towns that are "liberated" from ISIS by Kurds or Shias are being ethnically cleansed of their Sunni populations.

Several things amaze me about whole ISIS thing:

1. Other than Kurds, Iran and Syrian government, no-one gives a damn about really fighting ISIS. The US commitment to this war is pathetic as is just about everyone's elses be it the Iraqis, the Saudis, the Jordanians etc.

2. There is no talk about a post-war Iraq. It somehow assumes the status quo will be maintained despite no changes in Iraqi government attitudes to Sunni majorities and the Kurds/Shias ethnically cleansing any town or village they come to. I suspect if ISIS is defeated in Iraq, there won't be any Sunnis left either (and then I wonder what Saudi Arabia will do).

3. There's no real roadmap for how to progress with Syria either, save train some rebels of dubious loyalty.

Agreed, but I think the puppet regime stems from other directions as well, but yes Iran is a part of it, however, Iran is not as much of a threat as we think it is. The issue is purely political with them, meaning, there are only half truths and distorted stories that are being peddled in the mainstream media. Iranian government is nuts, but their people, their way of life an the country as a whole is a bizarre place. Bourdain just did a tour there in his "Parts Unknown" series, and it was fascinating to see how complex everything is there.

ISIS is a very useful tool, for the USA and for the rest of the countries down there. For USA, they were a relatively cheap way of getting rid of dictators they did not like, which further destabilized the region and made it open for exploitation by corporations and neighbor countries. At the same time, they replaced the Al Qaeda/Saddam Hussein/Gaddafi/Mubarak etc., and that way it always gives an excuse for the USA to be there. As far as the nearby countries are concerned, ISIS creates enough havoc for them to come in and take chunks of land and resources for themselves, so why would they fight their fellow Muslims, regardless how crazy they are, until they actually pose a threat to them.

Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Lebanon and almost any country down there that does not have strong leadership will cease to exist. Iraq especially, since you are right, with all those sides against each other, it was only thanks to a dictator that some order was established, you remove that, and it is chaos. I would not be surprised to see several smaller states being formed in the end, if the fighting ever stops, but I doubt that it will. The political vacuum needs to be filled, and until a new dictator rises, or gets placed there, this mess will continue and spill over to the surrounding countries.

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