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The Current Situation In The Middle-East



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Original post

Posted by Account deleted, 10.11.2006 - 22:01
I wasn't sure about posting this.. But I'm really willing to see other people's opinions in this situation than just my schoolmates.

Here's something to discuss:
- What kind of action should different big nations and unions (UN, USA, EU, etc.) actually take in the different situations that are happening over there?
- On who's side are you? Israel's or Palestine's? Why?
- What should be done on Iran? How could we be sure of the true intentions of Iran's nuclear plans?
- What do you think about Iraq's current situation? Was Saddams death penalty justified?
- How non-religious would you consider the different conflicts?
- Would you consider peace in the Middle-East as a realistic dream?

Please, discuss. Oh, and remember, no spamming, no stupidity what so ever. State your opinions calmly and try to be an adult.
06.01.2014 - 03:36
Candlemass
Defaeco
Out of interest, which problems exactly?
I think I would drop the word democracy and simply replace it with the removal of oppressive dictators for the time being. Seems like Islamist governments are winning the popular vote, although there are secular and democratic activists (some getting killed). Yeah, I've heard a lot from Christian friends on these attacks and alternative news outlets on the treatment of blacks Muslims by Arab Muslims, I'm surprised the media has barely paid any attention to these attacks.

Written by Vombatus on 06.01.2014 at 03:29

Authoritarian regimes are useful to maintain a certain order in societies that otherwise would be extremely fuck up coz of religious/ethnic/border tensions (like the examples that deadone cited).

Honestly, I don't see much a solution to end the constant instability if the societal configuration does not change. Maybe something similar to the Lebanon regime (political representation of each group present in the society through religious comunities) but even that brings a shitload of problems (either to implement and to maintain a certain statu quo). It's still more desirable than the alternate situation of their neighbors if you ask me.....


Well Lebanon had a civil war, similar to its neighbors today. The idea of having utterly opposite ideologues in the same framework cannot yield anything positive. Even for a democracy to work people need to agree on certain principles that confine them to a certain framework.
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06.01.2014 - 12:50
Candlemass
Defaeco
I think "women were being stoned for driving cars" is a little caricaturist, women at times tend to receive there better education than men, but yes being a women isn't being equal not culturally and not institutionally. Though I would not count on Iran as being associated with any "freedom", not more than the Saudis. Metalstorm.net is blocked in Iran. I wonder since when or how good this website is given they were Iranian members on the forum.
One of them sent me years ago a message here he agrees with me although he's afraid to voice himself out of fear of "Internet security". The same goes for the Jewish community there, they know that if they say what's not politically correct they might as well disappear. And as monotheistic there having it "good" as opposed to the Bahá'ís, which are doing terrible.
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06.01.2014 - 13:29
Vombatus
Potorro
Written by Candlemass on 06.01.2014 at 03:36


Well Lebanon had a civil war, similar to its neighbors today. The idea of having utterly opposite ideologues in the same framework cannot yield anything positive. Even for a democracy to work people need to agree on certain principles that confine them to a certain framework.


Civil war & some other shit ? Of course. But saying their political system didn't bring anything positive is a bit rushed I'd say.

They managed to pull a certain stability since the 90', and did rally under certain principles (Taif agreements) and multiconfesionnal divison of politics kind of works (regular elections even if each minority tries to reform the electoral system each time).
Having really fragmented religious communities + constant UN intervention might help but still makes it better than the situation in other countries of the region.
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06.01.2014 - 14:03
Candlemass
Defaeco
Written by Vombatus on 06.01.2014 at 13:29

Civil war & some other shit ? Of course. But saying their political system didn't bring anything positive is a bit rushed I'd say.

They managed to pull a certain stability since the 90', and did rally under certain principles (Taif agreements) and multiconfesionnal divison of politics kind of works (regular elections even if each minority tries to reform the electoral system each time).
Having really fragmented religious communities + constant UN intervention might help but still makes it better than the situation in other countries of the region.


Not there's specifically. it just doesn't tends to not work.
I don't see how the situation in Lebanon is qualitatively better. The assassinations of politician figures still continues, the war in Syria is 'leaking' from time to time into Lebanon given the Shia's (Hizbullah) support of the Alawites and the sectarian divisions still play a major role. The 2008 Doha Agreement (which was not yet fully implemented) was signed to prevent another upcoming civil war.
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06.01.2014 - 23:36
Vombatus
Potorro
Written by Candlemass on 06.01.2014 at 14:03

Not there's specifically. it just doesn't tends to not work.
I don't see how the situation in Lebanon is qualitatively better. The assassinations of politician figures still continues, the war in Syria is 'leaking' from time to time into Lebanon given the Shia's (Hizbullah) support of the Alawites and the sectarian divisions still play a major role. The 2008 Doha Agreement (which was not yet fully implemented) was signed to prevent another upcoming civil war.


Well, political assassinations or Hizbullah stirring up shit are a consequence from external presure, Syria in this case. From a strictly internal point of view, it does work kind of better. What I try to explain is that the political configuration over there yields somewhat positive results. Compare it to the typical authoritarian regime or the pseudo-democracies where the biggest ethnic/religious group gives no chance to minorities that proliferate in that region. A fragile democracy that tries a consensus (with notable examples like the Doha Agreement you mentioned) seems more desirable. Making Maronites, Shias, Sunnites or Druzes share a government and the accept the same rules is rather a good step, don't you think ?
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07.01.2014 - 01:24
Candlemass
Defaeco
Written by Vombatus on 06.01.2014 at 23:36

Well, political assassinations or Hizbullah stirring up shit are a consequence from external presure, Syria in this case. From a strictly internal point of view, it does work kind of better. What I try to explain is that the political configuration over there yields somewhat positive results. Compare it to the typical authoritarian regime or the pseudo-democracies where the biggest ethnic/religious group gives no chance to minorities that proliferate in that region. A fragile democracy that tries a consensus (with notable examples like the Doha Agreement you mentioned) seems more desirable. Making Maronites, Shias, Sunnites or Druzes share a government and the accept the same rules is rather a good step, don't you think ?


If they agree on a certain political framework, as you mentioned, yes, it could work. As I mentioned, the Doha agreement is not yet fully implemented. if it is better, if completed, than previous situations? Yes. If it is optimal? not necessarily. Certain groups would like a certain amount of political autonomy ("self-determination") that these political frameworks may not provide them with.
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08.01.2014 - 18:13
In Bone Factory
I am Iranian and I tell you that Iran is so far away from reaching the ability to make nuclear weapons.We have great brains but our country is isolated in any aspects. We have been dropping behind modern technology because we do not have any interactions.Anyway me like most of Iranians, not even like having nuclear weapons but also we dont want any kinds of nuclear plant because the related prohibitions have ruined our livings and fucked our economy...
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09.01.2014 - 14:25
Candlemass
Defaeco
Written by In Bone Factory on 08.01.2014 at 18:13

I am Iranian and I tell you that Iran is so far away from reaching the ability to make nuclear weapons.We have great brains but our country is isolated in any aspects. We have been dropping behind modern technology because we do not have any interactions.Anyway me like most of Iranians, not even like having nuclear weapons but also we dont want any kinds of nuclear plant because the related prohibitions have ruined our livings and fucked our economy...


Well, I'm Israeli but that doesn't make me expert on everything Israeli . BTW, are you using proxy/VPN or normal Internet? I'm interested because of this site. Someone should build an equation that includes the factors: distance, amount of indirect information and cultural bias equals the probable political ignorance on a certain country.
As how much as I feel sorry for Iranians (especially those who oppose the "supreme leader" political system) over economic sanctions, If my country would turn into a religious theocracy ruled by 12th century theology trying to achieve 21st century weapon technology there are not many international actions I would oppose in order to stop its regime from doing so.
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09.01.2014 - 15:39
In Bone Factory
Written by Candlemass on 09.01.2014 at 14:25

Written by In Bone Factory on 08.01.2014 at 18:13

I am Iranian and I tell you that Iran is so far away from reaching the ability to make nuclear weapons.We have great brains but our country is isolated in any aspects. We have been dropping behind modern technology because we do not have any interactions.Anyway me like most of Iranians, not even like having nuclear weapons but also we dont want any kinds of nuclear plant because the related prohibitions have ruined our livings and fucked our economy...


Well, I'm Israeli but that doesn't make me expert on everything Israeli . BTW, are you using proxy/VPN or normal Internet? I'm interested because of this site. Someone should build an equation that includes the factors: distance, amount of indirect information and cultural bias equals the probable political ignorance on a certain country.
As how much as I feel sorry for Iranians (especially those who oppose the "supreme leader" political system) over economic sanctions, If my country would turn into a religious theocracy ruled by 12th century theology trying to achieve 21st century weapon technology there are not many international actions I would oppose in order to stop its regime from doing so.


tnx for your anxiety. And I am using a software (Freegate) which link my connection with other servers out of my country (at least I think this way because I dont know much about computer science), Unfortunately this site like many other websites is filtered in my country
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The End Is Nigh ...
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12.01.2014 - 23:10
Candlemass
Defaeco
Written by In Bone Factory on 09.01.2014 at 15:39

tnx for your anxiety. And I am using a software (Freegate) which link my connection with other servers out of my country (at least I think this way because I dont know much about computer science), Unfortunately this site like many other websites is filtered in my country


Best of safety and wishes to you dear fellow metalhead.
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14.01.2014 - 19:42
In Bone Factory
Written by Candlemass on 12.01.2014 at 23:10


Best of safety and wishes to you dear fellow metalhead.


Thanks again my brother of metal. \m/
PS: I'm a big fan of Orphaned Land.
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26.02.2014 - 02:43
I hear Tehran is a beautiful city, it's a shame politics have to fuck everything.
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www.thunderousvoices.com
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09.03.2014 - 15:51
angel.
Evil Butterfly
Written by Dungeon Shaker on 26.02.2014 at 02:43

I hear Tehran is a beautiful city,

jajaj nice joke ! It's just a black hole filled with shit, do you find beauty in it ?
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The Fangirl.
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09.03.2014 - 16:35
angel.
Evil Butterfly
For tourists yeah it sounds beautiful.
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The Fangirl.
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10.03.2014 - 05:23
Darth Revan
Written by Bad English on 09.03.2014 at 16:53

Written by angel. on 09.03.2014 at 16:35

For tourists yeah it sounds beautiful.


politics kill tourism


Politics don't kill tourism, otherwise the US wouldn't be seeing any tourism revenue at all. Infamous "morality police" (read, gangs of men forcing women to cover themselves up) forces do tend to drive tourists away however. I hear since Rouhani got into power that's been changed, though whether it's a political stunt to appeal to the west or true reform is yet to be seen.
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10.03.2014 - 06:33
angel.
Evil Butterfly
Written by Darth Revan on 10.03.2014 at 05:23

that's been changed, though whether it's a political stunt to appeal to the west or true reform is yet to be seen.


Boing !! Nothing's changed ! Except getting worse and worse everyday.
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The Fangirl.
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10.03.2014 - 15:33
Darth Revan
Written by angel. on 10.03.2014 at 06:33

Written by Darth Revan on 10.03.2014 at 05:23

that's been changed, though whether it's a political stunt to appeal to the west or true reform is yet to be seen.


Boing !! Nothing's changed ! Except getting worse and worse everyday.


Well, I stand corrected then... Ugh... yeah it's a shithole full of bullshit Islamist policies then.
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10.03.2014 - 21:09
Candlemass
Defaeco
Written by Darth Revan on 10.03.2014 at 15:33

Written by angel. on 10.03.2014 at 06:33

Written by Darth Revan on 10.03.2014 at 05:23

that's been changed, though whether it's a political stunt to appeal to the west or true reform is yet to be seen.


Boing !! Nothing's changed ! Except getting worse and worse everyday.


Well, I stand corrected then... Ugh... yeah it's a shithole full of bullshit Islamist policies then.


I would spare people who live in conflict areas where everyone has to have an opinion on of terms like "shithole".
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10.03.2014 - 21:25
Darth Revan
Written by Candlemass on 10.03.2014 at 21:09

Written by Darth Revan on 10.03.2014 at 15:33

Written by angel. on 10.03.2014 at 06:33

Written by Darth Revan on 10.03.2014 at 05:23

that's been changed, though whether it's a political stunt to appeal to the west or true reform is yet to be seen.


Boing !! Nothing's changed ! Except getting worse and worse everyday.


Well, I stand corrected then... Ugh... yeah it's a shithole full of bullshit Islamist policies then.


I would spare people who live in conflict areas where everyone has to have an opinion on of terms like "shithole".

Well, only reason I'm using the term is that the person I'm replying to, whom I'm assuming lives in Tehran, used the same term.

Written by angel. on 09.03.2014 at 15:51

jajaj nice joke ! It's just a black hole filled with shit, do you find beauty in it ?
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17.03.2014 - 01:25
FOOCK Nam
Middle East no longer is hot on earth anymore. Now is time for east Asia becoming celebrity of attention on world, we gonna be famous.. Lol fun world.

Is that a disticnguised thing that Arabian, Iraqi, Iranian, Albanian, afghan paki Hindi woman race are mostly big curvy, why i see most you guys women are big,.. Becuz of the hi jack clothe or thin slim are rare in your countries ?
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25.07.2014 - 14:06
0rpheus
Q: Should it be spelled ISIS or ISIL?!
A: Well, ISIS sounds more sexy as it matches the name of the ancient Egyptian Goddess of health, marriage & love.
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I would prefer not to.
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25.07.2014 - 19:10
0rpheus
Written by Bad English on 25.07.2014 at 18:45

Written by 0rpheus on 25.07.2014 at 14:06

Q: Should it be spelled ISIS or ISIL?!
A: Well, ISIS sounds more sexy as it matches the name of the ancient Egyptian Goddess of health, marriage & love.

dunno
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant
just saying it was batter in Sadam days

In Arabic it's abbreviated داعش (da'ish):
د for دولة = State
ا for اسلامية = Islamic
ع for عراق = Iraq
ش for شام = Levant
So, apparently, ISIL fits more in terms of accurate translation.
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27.07.2014 - 20:22
mz
So, ISIS is attacking Kurdish cities like Kubani in Syria, and they are likely to be "successful" in their invasion. In that case, a genocide is more than possible, as the terrorists have already said that they want to kill as many Kurd people as possible. I really don't know what else should have happened for the global interference.
It's really hard not to get depressed these days readying the news of Middle East if you are a gut from Middle East.
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Giving my ears a rest from music.
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27.07.2014 - 20:35
Ilham
Giant robot
Yep. Seems like the Kurd in for another round of catastrophes.
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27.07.2014 - 22:01
mz
Written by Bad English on 27.07.2014 at 21:45


ISIS should try attack to Turkey ... funny non mess whit Turks, some Syrian rebels, army sometimes did should something inside as accident ... ok Turkey should down one Syria fighter, but I wany ISIS attack to Turkey whit full force ... maybe there ba another article 5 case when we se that paragraph on the Washington treaty -.... Turkey IMO use 3 times article 4

so far 5 has been used once

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying but in any case, Turkey had not been their enemies for long but they have attacked Turkey's embassy and took Turkish hostage. At the moment, Turkey is too much for them and they would not get involved in a war with Turkey.
Also, I don't understand why would you like an attack to Turkey?
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Giving my ears a rest from music.
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29.07.2014 - 15:27
0rpheus
Why do Saudi Arabia and Israel make such comfortable bedfellows?
[Article]
"...But our security cooperation with Egypt and the Gulf states is unique. This is the best period of security and diplomatic relations with the Arab."
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I would prefer not to.
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29.07.2014 - 16:17
Candlemass
Defaeco
"an open secret in Israel". Really? Much Wow. Much comfortable. Much secret.
As far as any relationship between Saudis and Israelis - the bases is solely on unfounded speculations.

Al Arabiya is still anti-Israeli garage journalism that is always was and the Saudis still fund every Israeli hating organization that's willing to burn the matching flag, including Hamas.
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29.07.2014 - 20:57
0rpheus
News channels don't necessarily show the real face of their countries!
KSA can't simply and don't have to normalize their relations with Israel, OPENLY. But a country established by a British help and protected by the US, can be a very probable friend to Israel.

As some Egyptians put it "Hamas are the Muslim brotherhood (Gaza branch)" and it's already known that KSA are against them wherever.

Some folks suggest that ISIS is funded by the Gulf including the Saudis, yet ISIS hasn't touched Israel and it won't be surprising if this suggestion is true. I'd see consistency in ISIS's attitude towards Israel. Anyways, time will tell...
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I would prefer not to.
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01.08.2014 - 09:04
Candlemass
Defaeco
Written by deadone on 30.07.2014 at 02:47

Another step towards Islamism in Turkey - deputy leader of country says it's "morally corrupt" for women to laugh in public.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/29/turkey-women-laugh/13326925/

Hopefully Erdogan's merry bunch of lunatic fundamentalists will be toppled in the next election and replaced by someone with far saner ideas on society.


I have an Egyptian friend and Syrian friend. Both secular, both forced to leave to Europe. One Germany, one Slovenia. I hope the same won't happen in Turkey.
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01.08.2014 - 16:07
angel.
Evil Butterfly
I wish this poor reign, middle east, never had oil, the suffering of people is getting horrible... really it rips my heart
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The Fangirl.
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