There's a big difference between "Genre-defining" and first song of a genre, which is all this list is comprised of

I agree with Lemon, this is a pretty good compilation of songs that were the first in their genres, and some of them (like Black Sabbath or Kill The King) even went on to become genre staples.

But just as one example, I think Slayer's "Angel of Death" is more defining for thrash metal than "Stone Cold Crazy" or "Ogre Battle" or whatever other 70s song.

Written by Alex F on 20.09.2012 at 01:17

There's a big difference between "Genre-defining" and first song of a genre, which is all this list is comprised of

Yes, you're right. I have changed the title.

Written by Aristarchos on 20.09.2012 at 10:42

Yes, you're right. I have changed the title.

Then have your first thumbs up

Written by Alex F on 20.09.2012 at 14:31

Written by Aristarchos on 20.09.2012 at 10:42

Yes, you're right. I have changed the title.

Then have your first thumbs up

Thanks for that one!

Written by Valentin B on 20.09.2012 at 04:18

I agree with Lemon, this is a pretty good compilation of songs that were the first in their genres, and some of them (like Black Sabbath or Kill The King) even went on to become genre staples.

But just as one example, I think Slayer's "Angel of Death" is more defining for thrash metal than "Stone Cold Crazy" or "Ogre Battle" or whatever other 70s song.

Although I think you're mostly right, I think Slayer is a little bit extreme to really define thrash. I think Exodus is a better definition of that genre.

I haven't found what could be considered as the first song of industrial metal or metalcore. Anyone who has a suggestion?

Other genres I would be glad to find suggestions of first examples in includes grindcore, sludge, stoner, post and groove metal.

I guess grindcore is between Repulsion and Napalm Death. Napalm Death released the first grindcore album "Scum" in 1987, but at that time Repulsion's "Horrified" was already recorded and released as a demo in 1986, although it wasn't officially released until 1989. Both Napalm Death and Repulsion had released demos earlier, which I haven't heard, so I can't really decide who of them that could be considered to be first.

With sludge metal, Melvins is what I most often see mentioned as the first band in the genre, but I'm not sure if any earlier songs could be said to belong to that genre. I'm not really into sludge, and I'm not really sure of the genre definition.

With stoner metal I often see Kyuss and Sleep as the originators, but the genre has a long history. Sir Lord Baltimoore is often mentioned as the godfathers of stoner rock, and they were I guess on the border to metal, but perhaps not over the border, at least they were very heavy for being 1970, although it still contained a big blues element. I personally love at least the title track on "Kingdom Come". Many people would go back even to Blue Cheer to name the start of stoner rock. I included "Summertime Blues" on the list as the first heavy metal song, and I guess that is the only song by them that could be considered metal, but I'm not sure if that could be called stoner. I'm not really sure of what the true definition of stoner really is. A lot of bands labelled as stoner have quite different sounds, and I guess it's not enough to have a blues element to be called stoner. Some Black Sabbath songs could perhaps also be called stoner.

With post metal I guess Neurosis "Through Silver And Blood" could be called the first album in the genre, but I'm not sure if there are any songs earlier than that that falls under that genre.

With groove metal I guess Pantera usually is considered as the first band in the genre, but I'm not sure if there were any other thrash songs that were groovy enough to belong to the genre, or which of Pantera's songs that belongs to the genre. I don't listen to that kind of music. Groove metal is the opposite to what I love about metal.

Written by Aristarchos on 13.11.2012 at 20:53


With groove metal I guess Pantera usually is considered as the first band in the genre, but I'm not sure if there were any other thrash songs that were groovy enough to belong to the genre, or which of Pantera's songs that belongs to the genre. I don't listen to that kind of music. Groove metal is the opposite to what I love about metal.

Some people claim Pantera copied Exhorder, which tbh I find ludicrous

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.11.2012 at 22:42

Written by Aristarchos on 13.11.2012 at 20:53


With groove metal I guess Pantera usually is considered as the first band in the genre, but I'm not sure if there were any other thrash songs that were groovy enough to belong to the genre, or which of Pantera's songs that belongs to the genre. I don't listen to that kind of music. Groove metal is the opposite to what I love about metal.

Some people claim Pantera copied Exhorder, which tbh I find ludicrous

I haven't heard Exhorder so I can't tell, and I will probably not check them out for a while if they sounds like Pantera.

Written by Aristarchos on 14.11.2012 at 16:08


I haven't heard Exhorder so I can't tell, and I will probably not check them out for a while if they sounds like Pantera.

Slaughter In The Vatican sounds nothing like Pantera and is a great album.
The Law is a lot weaker and more in the Pantera vein of thrash.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.11.2012 at 22:42


Some people claim Pantera copied Exhorder, which tbh I find ludicrous

I've never heard that before... I hardly hear any distinct similarities/copies between their music, besides the obvious basic thrash elements

Written by Alex F on 14.11.2012 at 17:42

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.11.2012 at 22:42


Some people claim Pantera copied Exhorder, which tbh I find ludicrous

I've never heard that before... I hardly hear any distinct similarities/copies between their music, besides the obvious basic thrash elements

Exactly.

That Pantera and Exhorder were close friends especially Exhorder with Phil does NOT mean Pantera ripped them off.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.11.2012 at 16:12

Slaughter In The Vatican sounds nothing like Pantera and is a great album.
The Law is a lot weaker and more in the Pantera vein of thrash.

So how does Slaughter In The Vatican sound? Is it more classic thrash?

Written by Aristarchos on 15.11.2012 at 17:33

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.11.2012 at 16:12

Slaughter In The Vatican sounds nothing like Pantera and is a great album.
The Law is a lot weaker and more in the Pantera vein of thrash.

So how does Slaughter In The Vatican sound? Is it more classic thrash?

a bit along the lines of older Slayer

On BM i have an opinion : Venom did made the term Black Metal but none till mid 80's used it do describe their music (nor what Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did) ;also stylistically their sound is not the first real example of what we call black metal ... it would be something from Bathhory's Under The Sign of Black Mark

So if you refer to Venom as first band that made black metal (as description of genre) you are right but if you think about the sound i think that Bathory also have the place here ... i think that they both could be in this list as for BM goes...but its your list so do what you like man ...

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 15.11.2012 at 19:21

On BM i have an opinion : Venom did made the term Black Metal but none till mid 80's used it do describe their music (nor what Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did) ;also stylistically their sound is not the first real example of what we call black metal ... it would be something from Bathhory's Under The Sign of Black Mark

So if you refer to Venom as first band that made black metal (as description of genre) you are right but if you think about the sound i think that Bathory also have the place here ... i think that they both could be in this list as for BM goes...but its your list so do what you like man ...

Venom did refer to their music as black metal as did Mercyful Fate. And Bathory started as a putre Venom rip-off/worship band.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 15.11.2012 at 20:48

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 15.11.2012 at 19:21

On BM i have an opinion : Venom did made the term Black Metal but none till mid 80's used it do describe their music (nor what Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did) ;also stylistically their sound is not the first real example of what we call black metal ... it would be something from Bathhory's Under The Sign of Black Mark

So if you refer to Venom as first band that made black metal (as description of genre) you are right but if you think about the sound i think that Bathory also have the place here ... i think that they both could be in this list as for BM goes...but its your list so do what you like man ...

Venom did refer to their music as black metal as did Mercyful Fate. And Bathory started as a putre Venom rip-off/worship band.

so did Celtic Frost since 87... my point was that if you stylistically speak about BM sound than Bathory's Under The Sign of Black Mark is the first real black metal that is like one we know today...

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 15.11.2012 at 19:21

On BM i have an opinion : Venom did made the term Black Metal but none till mid 80's used it do describe their music (nor what Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did) ;also stylistically their sound is not the first real example of what we call black metal ... it would be something from Bathhory's Under The Sign of Black Mark

So if you refer to Venom as first band that made black metal (as description of genre) you are right but if you think about the sound i think that Bathory also have the place here ... i think that they both could be in this list as for BM goes...but its your list so do what you like man ...

Since you're asking for it, I could add it to the list. But the same discussion could be held about Possessed vs. Death.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.11.2012 at 17:56

Written by Alex F on 14.11.2012 at 17:42

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.11.2012 at 22:42


Some people claim Pantera copied Exhorder, which tbh I find ludicrous

I've never heard that before... I hardly hear any distinct similarities/copies between their music, besides the obvious basic thrash elements

Exactly.

That Pantera and Exhorder were close friends especially Exhorder with Phil does NOT mean Pantera ripped them off.

But do you think Exhorder had a big influence on the groove metal genre? I'm thinking of adding them to my other list with most influential metal bands.

Written by Aristarchos on 19.11.2012 at 14:43


But do you think Exhorder had a big influence on the groove metal genre? I'm thinking of adding them to my other list with most influential metal bands.

imo they didn't/ Even though forum keyboard revisionist warriors tend to disagree. But then again they weren't there during the days when Exhorder was around and just a marginal band at the time

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 15.11.2012 at 19:21

On BM i have an opinion : Venom did made the term Black Metal but none till mid 80's used it do describe their music (nor what Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did) ;also stylistically their sound is not the first real example of what we call black metal ... it would be something from Bathhory's Under The Sign of Black Mark

So if you refer to Venom as first band that made black metal (as description of genre) you are right but if you think about the sound i think that Bathory also have the place here ... i think that they both could be in this list as for BM goes...but its your list so do what you like man ...

I just saw that you had thumbed up my list. Thanks for that!

But also, if you don't accept Venom's music as black metal, how would you describe them? Many people call them thrash, but to my ears they don't sound like thrash. They're too dark for being thrash and I guess not really aggressive enough. To my ears "Stone Cold Crazy" sounds more thrash than any Venom song. I call Venom something like black speed/NWOBHM. I don't think there is a way to describe their music without using the term black in it, and they definitely had a big influence for the genre, early Bathory was only a continuation on their sound. With Mercyful Fate I have more difficulties to really hear the black metal part. The same could be said about Celtic Frost, although Hellhammer was very black, I would say more than Venom, but Celtic Frost drifted away from that sound.

Written by Aristarchos on 20.11.2012 at 17:44

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 15.11.2012 at 19:21

On BM i have an opinion : Venom did made the term Black Metal but none till mid 80's used it do describe their music (nor what Bathory and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did) ;also stylistically their sound is not the first real example of what we call black metal ... it would be something from Bathhory's Under The Sign of Black Mark

So if you refer to Venom as first band that made black metal (as description of genre) you are right but if you think about the sound i think that Bathory also have the place here ... i think that they both could be in this list as for BM goes...but its your list so do what you like man ...

I just saw that you had thumbed up my list. Thanks for that!

But also, if you don't accept Venom's music as black metal, how would you describe them? Many people call them thrash, but to my ears they don't sound like thrash. They're too dark for being thrash and I guess not really aggressive enough. To my ears "Stone Cold Crazy" sounds more thrash than any Venom song. I call Venom something like black speed/NWOBHM. I don't think there is a way to describe their music without using the term black in it, and they definitely had a big influence for the genre, early Bathory was only a continuation on their sound. With Mercyful Fate I have more difficulties to really hear the black metal part. The same could be said about Celtic Frost, although Hellhammer was very black, I would say more than Venom, but Celtic Frost drifted away from that sound.

well the entire "first wave" consists of bands that play different styles ...its like i wrote Bathory was the one band that sounded more similar to what we know as second wave than other bands.Venom for me will always be speed/NWOBHM with catchy lyrics and Hellhammer is very punk-ish blackened thrash ...Celtic Frost was something like blackened thrash in their first two albums but yes they drifted away from that sound really fast ...

I changed the first folk metal song, since I found an earlier example from 1984. I also found a very obscure song from 1976 which I suggest as the first industrial metal song ever, although I guess that choice may be controversial (if you have any better suggestion, please suggest me). I also added suggestions for the first grindcore, groove, sludge, drone and post metal songs/albums. If you don't agree with all these, then give me better suggestions.

Written by Aristarchos on 03.12.2012 at 15:12

I changed the first folk metal song, since I found an earlier example from 1984.

you could go even earlier than that by going over Thin Lizzy's discorgaphy.

Emerald by Lizzy is a fully metal song which could qualify as folk metal and stems from 1976

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 03.12.2012 at 15:46

Emerald by Lizzy is a fully metal song which could qualify as folk metal and stems from 1976

Thanks for your suggestion!

I never really thought of Thin Lizzy as heavy metal, but I could agree with you on that song. How many songs has Thin Lizzy that could be counted as metal?

Emerald has some folk influences, although they aren't as significantly as on Golgotha's ep from 1984, and most folk metal bands today, but for me that is only something positive. I think most of the modern folk metal bands overdo the influences and only get boring, but on Emerald it really works, and I think Golgotha works too.

But I will switch the folk metal song in the list.

I know Thunder And Lightning is quite metallic, but I was more thinking about 70's songs.

I have started to include starts of sub-genres. In most cases I chose a full album,since I don't know any specific song that have been earlier. I was thinking of adding an album from the djent genre. I know that Meshuggah started that genre, but since that isn't any music I'm a fan of, I'm not sure from which album Meshuggah could be called djent.

Also, I still haven't found what could be considered as the first example of metalcore, no matter we're talking melodic metalcore or older forms of metalcore, or crossover thrash. I'm not into those genres at all. Please, suggest me.