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Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 35739

Age: 45
From: The Netherlands

  30.10.2012 at 00:57
The following message was posted on Facebook by Pantheist.

Quote:

RUNNING OUT OF FUEL
We have now lowered the prices of our self-titled album to 13 euro. Our 'Unveiling the Signs' split is also available for 8 euro, and both can be bought together for 18 euro only. The album is also still available as digital download from itunes.com or spotify.

The new prices will mean that we are only earning 1 or 2 euro per sold copy after deducting the wholesale price we are paying to the label and postage and packaging. But one needs to do what one needs to do.

This measure follows disappointing sales of our latest album, which means that we still owe money to our record label and that financing our next album has become problematic. We have repeatedly stated through this medium and elsewhere, that bands of our 'size' are not making any money, and definitely not a living through our music. We play it because we like it and hope to communicate with those who like what we do too, as long as the 'band bills' are paid. But unfortunately, we can't get round the fact that people are buying less and less of our albums, and we don't see an equivalent increase in merch sales (rather on the contrary) or attendance at our gigs, so that paying these 'band bills' has become problematic now.

Running a band without any money coming in, is a bit like running a car without renewing your fuel. Eventually you will run out of it, and then you won't be able to go anywhere. Every penny that comes in, goes towards financing traveling to come to your city or country to play a gig (as promoters seldom pay all traveling costs made by the band) or towards recording our next album (since the budget we get from our label is not enough to finance a recording to the standards expected from Pantheist).

We have been prepared to take the bulk of these extra costs ourselves over the previous years (and still are to some extend), but there is a limit to everything. It's particularly difficult to work hard on an album for years, have it released and promoted by a hard working, bona fide record label, get the positive reviews and comments in (most of these can be found on our site and Facebook page).and then nothing. Not even enough sales for band and label to recover half of what they have put in in the first place.

We hate to be so blunt about finances (this is a well-known taboo topic within the underground scene), but at the same time feel that if we don't talk about it, maybe some people will never be able to understand the importance of supporting a band. Not just through talking about it, or listening to free downloads, but to actually also financially support a band, whether this means coming to a gig, buying a t-shirt or buying the band's album. Whether we like it or not (and let's face it, we don't) traveling costs money, recording costs money, everything a band does costs money. You fans are our lifeline, what sustains a band and motivates it to keep going. Without you the only thing that remains is -with a few exceptions- either amateurish DIY muddling, records made by experts in sound engineering who also happen to play in a band, or corporate sponsored mega bands. We are within that majority of bands that tries to survive in the middle of these extremes, and ask for your understanding and support so that we don't run out of fuel before our next album can be recorded, released and promoted.

We know that we are probably preaching to the converted, but hope that you will be able to spread the word in order that everyone who might care reads and understands our situation. We don't expect everyone to suddenly change attitude and start spilling money on underground bands; but we hope that raising awareness will at least help to start shifting a don't-give-a-damn mentality still pretty much present the day of today, a mentality which is self-destructive and will slowly but surely lead to the demise of a whole host of honest bands and labels that are just out there to share with you their love and passion for music.



A band/project such as The 11th Hour goes through the same ordeals. Ed Warby posted that he doesn't know how to go about recording the third The 11th Hour album. LM was financed with half the budget of the debut Burden Of Grief, if this trend continues he can spend 500 euros for the next album. Which would mean that at least 2000 euros have to come pout of his own pocket.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

BoxCar Willy
John Doe

Posts: 6851

Age: 17
From: Canada

  30.10.2012 at 01:02
It's sad really. But honestly, if you're in a band in this day in age, it can't be a career choice. It's just not going to work out.
----
Pop punk crusader
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 35739

Age: 45
From: The Netherlands

  30.10.2012 at 01:14
Written by BoxCar Willy on 30.10.2012 at 01:02

It's sad really. But honestly, if you're in a band in this day in age, it can't be a career choice. It's just not going to work out.


This is not even about it being a career choice because ALL these guys have full time jobs in addition to their bands. It's about not even being able to record (mix, master, etc etc) any more due to extreme lack of funds.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 2766

Age: 22
From: Serbia

  30.10.2012 at 01:29
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2012 at 01:14

Written by BoxCar Willy on 30.10.2012 at 01:02

It's sad really. But honestly, if you're in a band in this day in age, it can't be a career choice. It's just not going to work out.


This is not even about it being a career choice because ALL these guys have full time jobs in addition to their bands. It's about not even being able to record (mix, master, etc etc) any more due to extreme lack of funds.

hell even we in solo/one-man projects have cash problems although our bands are like hobby .... these days only crap gets the money ...
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 36624

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  30.10.2012 at 02:00
Its sad .. and well nowdays its not aboyut money and carear its about passion and love to the music , and of bands can be a ''hobby band'' and play in small festivals
If job be problem, non of band members ever would tour n record album... so its motivation
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Valentin B
Iconoclast

Posts: 10009

Age: 24
From: Poland

  30.10.2012 at 04:10
I disagree about "nowadays" it being difficult to get success in metal. For every Metallica and Slayer out there (who, remember, also had to endure a lot of shit before limo's and private flights and whatever) there's around 1000 bands that never had any success whatsoever. Just listen to AC/DC's song "It's a Long Way to the Top".. it describes all these issues and quite a few others that I'm sure Pantheist never had to endure, and I'm sure AC/DC didn't have some of the problems modern underground bands have now. It's a different time, not necessarily a worse time for music.

This is not to detract anything from Pantheist, I appreciate them for telling it like it is and if the fans (or "fans") need to know that the band is not doing too well, then good for them, and I hope that them being made aware of their situation helps boosts sales up a bit as they seem to be struggling enough. I also know how difficult it is to get a good sound and support needed from a label, without a label. I and my band, 5 members, are prepared to shell out 200 euros each (don't know about the rest of the band but that's 1/3 of my monthly salary btw) to get a demo or self-released CD done, and I honestly wouldn't care that much if I don't get my money back for this, it's a hobby and not a livelihood.

I am NOT complaining about this situation, I understand that it's never been easy for anyone at the bottom end of the music industry in a genre that's not part of mainstream culture, at least in Romania. I also understand Pantheist and a host of other bands dedicate themselves more to this lifestyle if you want to call it. Meanwhile non-posers have their hands full buying merch and albums... it's a bit sad but it's been like this ever since the dawn of recorded music and imo downloading has not changed the game that much.
----
Sing me a song, you're a singer
Do me a wrong, you're a bringer of evil.
Fredd
Witch Doctor

Posts: 1258

Age: 22
From: Egypt

  30.10.2012 at 12:57
I honestly wish I could help.
----
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 36624

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  30.10.2012 at 13:52
@Marcel - How much use to cost vinly when you was young?

@Vali - Those were diferent days , + all was cheeper, all recording costs and so on +then was no i net, ppl cant easely get music, and + there was not so much music out and bands has bigger chance get on air and there was specifical talks, live radio where ppl more talk aboiut muisc, now modern where PC plays non stop and bands can easly get etleast some time on air + it was less harder get something so some reporter dug up weird band, he wrote in some magasine, radio played some tune and so on .... nowdays muisc is dictated buy pop and hip hop shit... look at MTV . Music Televsion not HTV ... house TV ...
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 35739

Age: 45
From: The Netherlands

  30.10.2012 at 16:01
Written by Bad English on 30.10.2012 at 13:52

@Marcel - How much use to cost vinly when you was young?



I now pay 15 euro for vinyl usually back in the day I would pay 25-30 guilders which is 11 - 13 euros. So the price of vinyl nowadays is actually very cheap considering inflation and all.

A cd currently costs me 10 euro at the cheapest (22 guilders) and at the most 17 euros (40 guilders) back in the day they cost 35 guilders (15 euros) at the cheapest and 45 guilders (18 euros) max. So, in comparison cd's have become cheaper over the passed 20 or so years
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Bad English
nobody

Posts: 36624

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  30.10.2012 at 16:32
From my times I remeber all legal cost 5-12 lats for normal CD its same in pounds
and also sek 100-120 is normal price for CD since I remeber
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Alex Fenger
Lemon

Posts: 1707

Age: 17


  30.10.2012 at 18:31
I spend as much money supporting artists as I can, buying cd's/vinyls/shirts/etc... The problem is I'm 15, and in school, so I can't really get a job to make money.
I'll get a job over the summer though, to which all of my money will go towards gas and music.
theFIST

Posts: 750

Age: 21
From: Austria

  30.10.2012 at 19:23
That problem would be much smaller if government didn"t steal money whereever it can as "taxes" and if there were no central banks ,the money of which is forced upon us through government, that devalue our money, both causing higher prices and less wealth
----
http://metalstormmusicianscorner.bandcamp.com
Written by Warman on 07.11.2007 at 22:39
Haha, that's like saying "compose your own Metal album and upload it here, instead of writing a review of an album".
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 35739

Age: 45
From: The Netherlands

  30.10.2012 at 19:27
Written by theFIST on 30.10.2012 at 19:23

That problem would be much smaller if government didn"t steal money whereever it can as "taxes" and if there were no central banks ,the money of which is forced upon us through government, that devalue our money, both causing higher prices and less wealth



yeah blame it on the government bla bla bla
it's the "we want everything for free" genreation mentality speaking up here once again, always blaming it on external forces but never on themselves.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

theFIST

Posts: 750

Age: 21
From: Austria

  30.10.2012 at 20:25
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2012 at 19:27

Written by theFIST on 30.10.2012 at 19:23

That problem would be much smaller if government didn"t steal money whereever it can as "taxes" and if there were no central banks ,the money of which is forced upon us through government, that devalue our money, both causing higher prices and less wealth



yeah blame it on the government bla bla bla
it's the "we want everything for free" genreation mentality speaking up here once again, always blaming it on external forces but never on themselves.

i don"t want everything for free, i know scarce goods can not be free as there always has to be someone paying for them, but i, and i"m sure many others as well, lack the money for many merch/concert purchases, but could easily afford more without all my expenses getting taxed
----
http://metalstormmusicianscorner.bandcamp.com
Written by Warman on 07.11.2007 at 22:39
Haha, that's like saying "compose your own Metal album and upload it here, instead of writing a review of an album".
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 35739

Age: 45
From: The Netherlands

  30.10.2012 at 20:30
Written by Guest on 30.10.2012 at 19:55

I don't understand the part of people not going to their concerts and buying their merch, i mean these guys are amazing. Is it cause doom is unpopular compared to the other metal genres?



tbh I don't understand people going to any small gig and seeing the band they really like and not buying anything at all. Not only in the case of Pantheist (who posted this orignally) Btw in doom circles people actually buy more in comparison than to what people buy when going to seeing black metal/power metal/death metal etc
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

JÄY
Metal slave

Posts: 1429

Age: 29
From: USA

  30.10.2012 at 22:31
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2012 at 20:30

Btw in doom circles people actually buy more in comparison than to what people buy when going to seeing black metal/power metal/death metal etc

What a dipshit thing to say....get off your high horse, old man.
...if a band cant make it that sucks... they obviously need to change something to actually get some fans.
Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 14343

Age: 21
From: Sweden

  30.10.2012 at 22:46
Written by JÄY on 30.10.2012 at 22:31

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2012 at 20:30

Btw in doom circles people actually buy more in comparison than to what people buy when going to seeing black metal/power metal/death metal etc
What a dipshit thing to say....get off your high horse, old man.


I don't think Marcel was being particularly arrogant with that comment. I haven't been to as many gigs as I would like but from what I have to compare with based on what I've seen I would agree with him.
I'm surprised you got so offended.
----
Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 31.01.2012 at 00:21
Post a picture of your bushy mane for redemption.
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
Dinruth

Posts: 212
From: Austria
  30.10.2012 at 23:05
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2012 at 19:27

Written by theFIST on 30.10.2012 at 19:23

That problem would be much smaller if government didn"t steal money whereever it can as "taxes" and if there were no central banks ,the money of which is forced upon us through government, that devalue our money, both causing higher prices and less wealth



yeah blame it on the government bla bla bla
it's the "we want everything for free" genreation mentality speaking up here once again, always blaming it on external forces but never on themselves.


I second that emotion .. people too often forget what the evil, evil government does for society .. I'm sure as hell not someone who is fond of politicians .. I mistrust most.. but without taxes there would be no roads, no welfare, no public transport, no arts and so on and so on
Edmund Fogg

Posts: 1752

Age: 27
From: Canada

  30.10.2012 at 23:11
On the rare gigs I go, (usually big festivals) I pay my ticket already a high price. The merch, I can get it cheaper on the bands or label store then at those Fest. The music I get for free is from bands who agree to distribute it freely (And tbh it's the only kind of music I can get right now with my budget). Whenever I have extra money, I buy the Shirt combo deal. Music is a luxury just like cars, sound systems, movies, video games etch... It's normal when times are hard that people cut their luxury expenses the first.
----
You cannot sedate all the things you hate - MM
The Observer is the source of reality - Bloom
God damn it!! What did Diddy didn't do? - Satan
JÄY
Metal slave

Posts: 1429

Age: 29
From: USA

  31.10.2012 at 06:29
Written by Mr. Doctor on 30.10.2012 at 22:46

I don't think Marcel was being particularly arrogant with that comment.

Trust me that was his intention

Written by Mr. Doctor on 30.10.2012 at 22:46

I'm surprised you got so offended.

How dare you
Void Eater
Crunkcore Fan

Posts: 2234

Age: 19
From: USA

  31.10.2012 at 07:49
There's plenty of albums these days with quality production that are basically just made in some kid's bedroom with some basic home recording programs. Having to spend 2000+ euros to get a decent sounding album seems like it wouldn't be necessary this day in age.
----
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 35739

Age: 45
From: The Netherlands

  31.10.2012 at 08:13
Written by Void Eater on 31.10.2012 at 07:49

Having to spend 2000+ euros to get a decent sounding album seems like it wouldn't be necessary this day in age.


It is when you want decent mastering and such. And good home recording equipment isn't cheap either
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1410

Age: 27
From: Australia

  31.10.2012 at 09:54
Written by JÄY on 30.10.2012 at 22:31

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2012 at 20:30


...if a band cant make it that sucks... they obviously need to change something to actually get some fans.

You don't mean... the dreaded C word! That bands should go (whispers in fear) commercial?
----
GO THE SHARKS!

Apathy is an emotion.
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 35739

Age: 45
From: The Netherlands

  31.10.2012 at 10:23
Written by M C Vice on 31.10.2012 at 09:54


You don't mean... the dreaded C word! That bands should go (whispers in fear) commercial?


apparently he does
They should dumb down their music to appeal to the masses
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1410

Age: 27
From: Australia

  31.10.2012 at 12:07
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 31.10.2012 at 10:23

Written by M C Vice on 31.10.2012 at 09:54


You don't mean... the dreaded C word! That bands should go (whispers in fear) commercial?


apparently he does
They should dumb down their music to appeal to the masses

Children Of Bodem are off to a good start, then.
If it's good enough for Justin Timberlake, it's good enough for Darkthrone.
----
GO THE SHARKS!

Apathy is an emotion.
IronAngel

Posts: 4285

Age: 25
From: Finland

  01.11.2012 at 15:42
It also has to do with the wide selection of music today. It's easier to get visibility and putting out an album can be practically free (if you happen to have the equipment and expertise in your immediate social circle), but on the other hand the demand on a large market isn't enough to sustain all those bands.

I don't think there's a "we want everything for free" generation, or at least moralizing about it is inappopriate. I think every generation is conditioned by the context it grows up in, and during our generation access to culture has become effortless and free. It's a fact of psychological and sociological laws. It's only considered lazy or greedy when viewed from the perspective of the previous situation. Personally, I think the notion of "intellectual property" needs a thorough revision. The current system clearly doesn't work for the bands and the business, but neither can we go back to the old. Technology can't go backwards and we can't close Pandora's box.

It's problematic that there are so many bands out there and they all need support. Yet with an income of 500 euros a month, or even if I had an income of 5000 euros, I couldn't support all those I wanted to. Not in any meaningful fashion. So it comes down to a choice. And whatever I choose, it won't save a label or a band. That doesn't mean that I won't support them at all and use my money on the music business. But it does mean simple goodwill won't make a difference across the board, if the business model itself is unsustainable.
Guib

Posts: 1914

Age: 23
From: Canada

  02.11.2012 at 06:28
It is really sad that bands have to come to these methods to get funds. It is true though that alot of ''fans'' don't give a shit about supporting the bands, they got this ''Somebody else will'' mentallity. But wake up, in an underground world like metal you are that somebody. I think we should all try to support what we like as much as we can. Just stop downloading and buy the damn cd, someone worked hard for it, don't steal the little money they have spent to release the music YOU enjoy. Also we can't force people to attend gigs, I understand its not everyone who likes to, but if you don't at least fucking buy their music.



thank you Marcel.
----
- I love my technical, melodic, my thrash, agressive and fast paced, my sludge, well thought, my heavy, heavier and my metal, ever-growing -
Edmund Fogg

Posts: 1752

Age: 27
From: Canada

  02.11.2012 at 16:24
----
You cannot sedate all the things you hate - MM
The Observer is the source of reality - Bloom
God damn it!! What did Diddy didn't do? - Satan
Void Eater
Crunkcore Fan

Posts: 2234

Age: 19
From: USA

  02.11.2012 at 17:05
Also have to wonder, would these guys really be making any money off of their music even if people didn't download? Not everybody who downloads an album would have bought it if downloading wasn't an option. These guys don't play a style of music that would get them a lot of fans, it seems pretty possible that, even if people didn't download, they still wouldn't sell enough albums to make enough money to pay for their next album.
----
Edmund Fogg

Posts: 1752

Age: 27
From: Canada

  02.11.2012 at 21:38
Written by Void Eater on 02.11.2012 at 17:05

Also have to wonder, would these guys really be making any money off of their music even if people didn't download? Not everybody who downloads an album would have bought it if downloading wasn't an option. These guys don't play a style of music that would get them a lot of fans, it seems pretty possible that, even if people didn't download, they still wouldn't sell enough albums to make enough money to pay for their next album.


Yeah, but that is a decision that we cannot take for the band. If the band chooses to distribute free digital copies, then I agree with you. If the band absolutly wants to sell their products, then the arguments has no value.
----
You cannot sedate all the things you hate - MM
The Observer is the source of reality - Bloom
God damn it!! What did Diddy didn't do? - Satan

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