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MSA 2012 Voting Discussion



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Original post

Posted by psykometal, 01.02.2013 - 22:52
You've got questions, we've got answers! Here is the place to ask what Category a band can be voted in.

Ask/bitch away!
11.02.2013 - 12:03
Skyum

Having listened to the Alkerdeel record for a while now, I fail to see how it belongs in Extreme Doom. The vast majority of the record is black/sludge, and the slow sections in "De Levande" sound more like Burzum than extreme doom metal, at least to my ears. Sounds more like sludgy black metal with some doomy sections here and there.
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12.02.2013 - 16:30
X-Ray Rod
Skandino
Written by Skyum on 11.02.2013 at 12:03

Having listened to the Alkerdeel record for a while now, I fail to see how it belongs in Extreme Doom. The vast majority of the record is black/sludge, and the slow sections in "De Levande" sound more like Burzum than extreme doom metal, at least to my ears. Sounds more like sludgy black metal with some doomy sections here and there.


Actually, the only thing that is black about that album is the production and the tune of the guitars. Everything else is definitely sludge/doom related.
Also... if there's one black metal band they can be compared with, it would be Darkthrone and by that I mean A Blaze In The Northern Sky, which is also known for being mostly death metal riffs with a black metal sound. Alkerdeel did basically the same thing but instead of death, the riffs are sludge/doom. I personally hear no Burzum here. Their demo and debut do have more black though but on Morinde it does lean more to extreme doom.

Cheers and hope you are enjoying the awards so far!
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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14.02.2013 - 04:46
Edmund Fogg

Hum Looking through Drama of the Year, and it seems like their is a lot of variation of the Randy Blythe Affair. Will they all be counted as the same drama or you keep the version with the most write ins and delete the rest?

Nevermind. It's the same with all the Bands. So it's pretty easy to sort out... Unless you have more then 1 big drama per band.
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14.02.2013 - 11:17
Promonex
Cathemeral
I already merged a lot of the Black Sabbath, Lamb of God and Queensrÿche entries. Just kept the one that says: "Lamb of God - Frontman murders a person while performing metalcore. LoG have now finally done something original", because it made me giggle.
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14.02.2013 - 12:44
!J.O.O.E.!
Account deleted
Written by Promonex on 14.02.2013 at 11:17

I already merged a lot of the Black Sabbath, Lamb of God and Queensrÿche entries. Just kept the one that says: "Lamb of God - Frontman murders a person while performing metalcore. LoG have now finally done something original", because it made me giggle.

Except that they've never played metalcore so it's pretty inaccurate =P
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14.02.2013 - 14:33
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck
Written by Guest on 14.02.2013 at 12:44

Written by Promonex on 14.02.2013 at 11:17

I already merged a lot of the Black Sabbath, Lamb of God and Queensrÿche entries. Just kept the one that says: "Lamb of God - Frontman murders a person while performing metalcore. LoG have now finally done something original", because it made me giggle.

Except that they've never played metalcore so it's pretty inaccurate =P



I was thinking the exact same thing
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05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

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14.02.2013 - 14:56
IronAngel

Written by X-Ray Rod on 12.02.2013 at 16:30

Written by Skyum on 11.02.2013 at 12:03

Having listened to the Alkerdeel record for a while now, I fail to see how it belongs in Extreme Doom. The vast majority of the record is black/sludge, and the slow sections in "De Levande" sound more like Burzum than extreme doom metal, at least to my ears. Sounds more like sludgy black metal with some doomy sections here and there.


Actually, the only thing that is black about that album is the production and the tune of the guitars. Everything else is definitely sludge/doom related.
Also... if there's one black metal band they can be compared with, it would be Darkthrone and by that I mean A Blaze In The Northern Sky, which is also known for being mostly death metal riffs with a black metal sound. Alkerdeel did basically the same thing but instead of death, the riffs are sludge/doom. I personally hear no Burzum here. Their demo and debut do have more black though but on Morinde it does lean more to extreme doom.


I still don't hear that, to be honest. Plenty of time it's pretty straightforward black metal. I don't know what obscure definition of black metal the staff have, but the sludge parts are pretty clearly separated from the black sections. I'll grant that the album is difficult to label, since each track is different and they have internal variation too. But it's pretty unbalanced black metal purism to unproblematically label it as "more sludge." A sludge purist would call it more black, because it's not that sludgy. I don't like the "extreme doom" description in the first place, but there's almost nothing doom about the record. (Same goes for Elysian Blaze.)
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14.02.2013 - 15:55
X-Ray Rod
Skandino
Written by IronAngel on 14.02.2013 at 14:56
I still don't hear that, to be honest. Plenty of time it's pretty straightforward black metal. I don't know what obscure definition of black metal the staff have, but the sludge parts are pretty clearly separated from the black sections. I'll grant that the album is difficult to label, since each track is different and they have internal variation too. But it's pretty unbalanced black metal purism to unproblematically label it as "more sludge." A sludge purist would call it more black, because it's not that sludgy. I don't like the "extreme doom" description in the first place, but there's almost nothing doom about the record. (Same goes for Elysian Blaze.)


Can't say I agree at all. Morinde would look jsut wrong in Black. I don't believe the parts are clearly separated either, to me their sound is very homogenous throughout the entire album and I do hear plenty of extreme doom same with Elysian Blaze. If both albums had a non-black production and tune of the guitars I doubt many people would have questioned it.
Also... not that sludgy? Well, sir I guess I found the problem there. I hear quite a lot of that in the mix.
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
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14.02.2013 - 16:43
!J.O.O.E.!
Account deleted
Written by IronAngel on 14.02.2013 at 14:56

I still don't hear that, to be honest. Plenty of time it's pretty straightforward black metal. I don't know what obscure definition of black metal the staff have, but the sludge parts are pretty clearly separated from the black sections. I'll grant that the album is difficult to label, since each track is different and they have internal variation too. But it's pretty unbalanced black metal purism to unproblematically label it as "more sludge." A sludge purist would call it more black, because it's not that sludgy. I don't like the "extreme doom" description in the first place, but there's almost nothing doom about the record. (Same goes for Elysian Blaze.)

"Plenty of time it's pretty straightforward black metal"

The only time this is true is on one track, and that's 'Horsesaw' which totals 2 and a half minutes of the whole record. The rest of the record is anything but straightforward to my ears. There are definitely driving frantic moments but they're typically obscured in a noisy feast of layers that more or less renders a simple black metal tag very inaccurate, not to mention they're usually far apart and relatively few. The majority of this record is a plodding extreme sludge / doom construction with intermittent black moments. Naturally this is why many of us came to the extreme doom conclusion.

A crude analysis of the songs:

Winterteens (13 and a half minutes):
0 - 6 minutes = plodding sludgy extreme doom
6 - 7 minutes = a flailing improv-sounding black metal part
7 - 10 minutes = a more sludge oriented section
10 - 13.5 minutes = slightly more straightforward black metal

Horsesaw (2 and a half minutes)
0 - 2.5 minutes = black metal

Hessepikin (5 and half minutes)
0 - 4.5 minutes = plodding, ambient doomy section
4.5 - 5.5 minutes = black metal

Du Levande (20 minutes)
0 - 1.5 minutes = black metal
1.5 - 8 minutes = plodding doomy sludge
8 - 11 minutes = black metal
11 - 20 minutes = mid paced sludge of some such

So yeah, there's really no more than 13 / 14 minutes of black metal on here from a structural perspective, from a 42 minute album, so I'm not sure where people are getting this notion that this is a black metal album. The rest is far too slow and meandering to really be considered black metal. Naturally there's an omnipresent black metal-ish atmosphere and vocal aspect, but you could say that about Coffinworm or Lord Mantis and many other bands, but structure and style takes precedence when making up the awards, not effects, aesthetics and elements. The conclusion we came to was extreme doom, and that's pretty much what it should have been after taking the entire composition into account. There's no reason whatsoever to have put this into black metal because it's not a black metal record, only a record with black metal moments and aspects. To say it's not doom is generally to ignore more or less everything that makes up doom and extreme doom I would say. Slow, crushing, suffocating. Doomy?

As for Elysian Blaze, well, I can understand why Alkerdeel might be a bit contentious but I can't imagine how anyone could fail to see the prevailing doom nature of them.
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14.02.2013 - 17:02
X-Ray Rod
Skandino
Written by Guest on 14.02.2013 at 16:43
Horsesaw (2 and a half minutes)
0 - 2.5 minutes = black metal

I would say:
0 - 1.5 minutes = black metal
1.5 - 2.5 Minutes = Quite sludge/doom/crust? (this part actually reminds me of some Eyehategod passages). It has a really upbeat and almost fun (in the sick way) riff going on there that I can't call black at all.

Quote:
Structure and style takes precedence when making up the awards, not effects, aesthetics and elements.

This really nails it.
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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14.02.2013 - 17:07
!J.O.O.E.!
Account deleted
Written by X-Ray Rod on 14.02.2013 at 17:02

I would say:
0 - 1.5 minutes = black metal
1.5 - 2.5 Minutes = Quite sludge/doom/crust? (this part actually reminds me of some Eyehategod passages). It has a really upbeat and almost fun (in the sick way) riff going on there that I can't call black at all.

Yeah I see what you mean. I could see the likes of Ash Pool, Bone Awl or that French black / punk band whose name eludes me, playing something like that.
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14.02.2013 - 17:09
X-Ray Rod
Skandino
Written by Guest on 14.02.2013 at 17:07
Ash Pool, Bone Awl or that French black / punk band whose name eludes me, playing something like that.

Aaaah yeah, Ash Pool. Cool stuff. Don't know the other one though.
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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14.02.2013 - 17:20
!J.O.O.E.!
Account deleted
Written by X-Ray Rod on 14.02.2013 at 17:09

Aaaah yeah, Ash Pool. Cool stuff. Don't know the other one though.

Similar to Ash Pool really, maybe a bit more punky.

Nuit Noire was the French band I was thinking of, anyway.
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14.02.2013 - 20:03
IronAngel

Those ambient, doomy sections you identify (which in fact make up a huge part of the album) could just as well be "black metal interludes." In terms of the oh-so-important structure and style, sludge and doom are defined by bassy, bluesy grooves. This album isn't groovy at all. On the other hand, it's not funeral doom either. So sure, it's slow and heavy but its resemblances to traditional, orthodox doom are about as distant as its resemblances to black. If your definition of doom is "slow, crushing and suffocating" I suppose that might work, but then it would apply to all sorts of ambient and drone interludes. (Granted, you also have drone in extreme doom which is somewhat justified, even if its genealogical relation to doom is far-fetched.) I also don't see how structure and "style" (whatever that is, individually) are given precedence over the immediately salient features of music that first catch people's attention. The vocals are black metal, none of the shouting hardcore/southern drawl of sludge or the guttural grunts of death doom. There's blast beats and tremolo picking (or whatever it is), archetypical of black metal. And the sound, as you admit, is very black. So it comes down to tempo and a few riffs you deem doomy or sludgy but don't really sound like Eyehategod or Winter at all.

I would identify Hessepikn as black, by the way. It's slow, but that guitar work is not remotely sludgy or doomy.
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14.02.2013 - 20:21
X-Ray Rod
Skandino
Written by IronAngel on 14.02.2013 at 20:03
Those ambient, doomy sections you identify (which in fact make up a huge part of the album) could just as well be "black metal interludes."

I'm sorry but I really don't understand this way of thinking. How can you call them "interludes" when they are "in fact a huge part of the album". That's simply contradictory. I doubt you can call interludes something that is equal or greater than what is supposed to be the center.

Also... I didn't know that all doom and sludge was bound to have bassy, bluesy grooves. That's certainly news to me as I don't find them a requirement at all. Does this work for all doom? Does funeral doom or death/doom need to sound bluesy and groovy?
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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14.02.2013 - 20:29
IronAngel

Written by X-Ray Rod on 14.02.2013 at 20:21

Written by IronAngel on 14.02.2013 at 20:03
Those ambient, doomy sections you identify (which in fact make up a huge part of the album) could just as well be "black metal interludes."

I'm sorry but I really don't understand this way of thinking. How can you call them "interludes" when they are "in fact a huge part of the album". That's simply contradictory. I doubt you can call interludes something that is equal or greater than what is "supposed to be the center".


Yeah but even Joe described them as ambient, doomy sections. By themselves, they don't really represent any genre. Structurally or stylistically, they are not doom riffs, sludge riffs or black riffs. You seem to arbitrarily label anything "not-black" as "doom" when the opposite seems just as justified. These famous structural criteria seem to boil down just to whether it's fast or slow.
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14.02.2013 - 20:38
X-Ray Rod
Skandino
Written by IronAngel on 14.02.2013 at 20:29
You seem to arbitrarily label anything "not-black" as "doom" when the opposite seems just as justified. These famous structural criteria seem to boil down just to whether it's fast or slow.

I don't recall doing anything of that. If I said anything of the sort, what I really meant was that if the album was slower people wouldn't really question it's doom nature because by doing so the sludge and doom riffs would be far more obvious to hear.

But then again, we don't even agree on those riffs being sludge or (extreme) doom in the first place so maybe this is a dead end now.
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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14.02.2013 - 21:00
psykometal
A staff guy...
Oh yea?! Well here's what the All-knowing Metal Masters of MA think of Alkerdeel: "Raw Sludge/Black Metal"

Unnnh! Take that!

But then here is what Alkerdeel says of themselves on Facebook: "Alkerdeel spits out droney black doom metal with blown out practice space production, grinding guitars, blasting distorted drums, filthy super sick vocals, with bursts of sludge and stretches of loping minimal crunch, sort of mathy, all very very heavy, doomy and even psychedelic."

I've never listened to the band so I can't offer an opinion but decided to do some non-biased searching just for shits and giggles (and I was bored ).
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14.02.2013 - 21:12
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck
Written by psykometal on 14.02.2013 at 21:00

Oh yea?! Well here's what the All-knowing Metal Masters of MA think of Alkerdeel: "Raw Sludge/Black Metal"



but then again they also label Chicken Of Boredom as Melodic Death?Power Metal and Lamb Of God as Groove Metal/Metalcore
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Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

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14.02.2013 - 21:49
X-Ray Rod
Skandino
Written by psykometal on 14.02.2013 at 21:00
Oh yea?! Well here's what the All-knowing Metal Masters of MA think of Alkerdeel: "Raw Sludge/Black Metal"

You could have quoted wikipedia (if they had a page there) while you are at it since it's just as useful.
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
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14.02.2013 - 22:41
psykometal
A staff guy...
You guys are so silly...
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15.02.2013 - 02:41
!J.O.O.E.!
Account deleted
Written by IronAngel on 14.02.2013 at 20:03

Those ambient, doomy sections you identify (which in fact make up a huge part of the album) could just as well be "black metal interludes." In terms of the oh-so-important structure and style, sludge and doom are defined by bassy, bluesy grooves. This album isn't groovy at all. On the other hand, it's not funeral doom either. So sure, it's slow and heavy but its resemblances to traditional, orthodox doom are about as distant as its resemblances to black. If your definition of doom is "slow, crushing and suffocating" I suppose that might work, but then it would apply to all sorts of ambient and drone interludes. (Granted, you also have drone in extreme doom which is somewhat justified, even if its genealogical relation to doom is far-fetched.) I also don't see how structure and "style" (whatever that is, individually) are given precedence over the immediately salient features of music that first catch people's attention. The vocals are black metal, none of the shouting hardcore/southern drawl of sludge or the guttural grunts of death doom. There's blast beats and tremolo picking (or whatever it is), archetypical of black metal. And the sound, as you admit, is very black. So it comes down to tempo and a few riffs you deem doomy or sludgy but don't really sound like Eyehategod or Winter at all.

I would identify Hessepikn as black, by the way. It's slow, but that guitar work is not remotely sludgy or doomy.

Doom and sludge are defined by bluesy grooves? This to me highlights the weakness in your argument as you're basing your definition of the genre on the archaic and restrictive Black Sabbath model. Most doom is often largely devoid of groove or anything bluesy, which suggests that this album is wide open to interpretation as "doom." Where is the groove and blues of say, Forest of Equilibrium? Or about a few thousand + doom albums. No, groove is not an integral part of doom and to tackle it from that perspective is fundamentally flawed from the beginning and excludes the majority of funeral doom and anything outside of a traditional template, and generally chokes an understanding of doom as a very diverse (moreso than black even) genre. The same applies to sludge on a large scale, which is largely influenced by hardcore, not blues. Yes, sludge can be groovy and bluesy, like Acid Bath, anything Southern oriented etc. but limit it to that classification means only including the sludge light bands as sludge. When you include anything more extreme this ideal goes out the window. In fact your description is far more indicative of the stoner genre which is predicated on what you regard sludge to be. If that's how you regard sludge, and even more strangely, doom, then I'm not surprised you find it hard to attribute sludge or doom to Morinde.

Regardless of the tone and feel, metal is largely defined by its basic characteristics, i.e. "style" - what is known, accepted and standardised by a group whole: doom = slow & heavy. To suggest ambient as a comparison to that seems bizarre given that tempo is not something that would be registered on any relevant level as it's general considered on its anti-structure qualities, and drone metal's relation to doom is clearly well documented. So unless you can name some doom-tempo black metal bands that are called black metal rather than blackened doom, then to me this will remain a black INFLUENCED doom album with some pacier sludge moments, regardless of the occasional tremolo picked or blast beat flurry. It might seem like a simplification to boil it down to speed but historically that is quite often how metal is categorised and defined, which is why there's no such thing as glacial thrash metal or speed doom, which almost invariably becomes sludge; an offshoot of doom. You have thrash metal with black vocals, production and theme; you get blackened thrash, not black metal. You get death metal with a cavernous,dark sound and slower sections, you get doom death, not death doom which is doom laden with death growls, and so on. Also, I don't think black metal has a monopoly on some of the sounds present on Morinde. Listening to Wormphlegm I get far more resonance with that than I do any black metal record.

Also, as per those ambient sections I mentioned, they aren't actually ambient though. Don't confuse me using the word ambient as an allusion to the genre of ambient, rather it was me simply using the term to give some description to the texture of that particular passage. Granted, it's difficult to pigeon hole, but I don't think it's really black metal when taken into the context of the rest of the album.
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15.02.2013 - 02:46
!J.O.O.E.!
Account deleted
Written by psykometal on 14.02.2013 at 21:00

Oh yea?! Well here's what the All-knowing Metal Masters of MA think of Alkerdeel: "Raw Sludge/Black Metal"

Unnnh! Take that!

But then here is what Alkerdeel says of themselves on Facebook: "Alkerdeel spits out droney black doom metal with blown out practice space production, grinding guitars, blasting distorted drums, filthy super sick vocals, with bursts of sludge and stretches of loping minimal crunch, sort of mathy, all very very heavy, doomy and even psychedelic."

I've never listened to the band so I can't offer an opinion but decided to do some non-biased searching just for shits and giggles (and I was bored ).

Well, first of all, MA are known to quite often drastically alter their band classifications. That's because they're user-defined and occasionally get it very wrong (Dawnbringer were down as death metal long before Profound Lore picked them up, and they've never had a single death metal note in their entire discog).

In this instance it sounds like Alkerdeel have a very good grasp of what they do: doom metal with a heavy black, and other stuff, modifier.

Besides, who the fuck ever heard of "Raw sludge?"
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15.02.2013 - 04:19
psykometal
A staff guy...
Written by Guest on 15.02.2013 at 02:46

Well, first of all, MA are known to quite often drastically alter their band classifications. That's because they're user-defined and occasionally get it very wrong (Dawnbringer were down as death metal long before Profound Lore picked them up, and they've never had a single death metal note in their entire discog).

Not sure if you realized it but the MA bit was a joke. How many times have we talked shit together about how fuck-tarded the MA Crew are?! If I actually felt that way about MA I would expect to be fired from MS Staff in a heart beat upon making such praiseful remarks about MA.

And I think the "Raw" modifier was probably for the "Black" part but maybe they felt "Sludge/Raw Black Metal" would look too weird...?
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15.02.2013 - 15:45
!J.O.O.E.!
Account deleted
Written by psykometal on 15.02.2013 at 04:19

Not sure if you realized it but the MA bit was a joke. How many times have we talked shit together about how fuck-tarded the MA Crew are?! If I actually felt that way about MA I would expect to be fired from MS Staff in a heart beat upon making such praiseful remarks about MA.

And I think the "Raw" modifier was probably for the "Black" part but maybe they felt "Sludge/Raw Black Metal" would look too weird...?

Well I had to be sure to get that point across about MA They're usually right with genres, but often they do get it quite wrong.
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15.02.2013 - 16:02
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck
Written by Guest on 15.02.2013 at 15:45

.... but often they do get it quite wrong.


As with the metalcore tag in Lamb Of God's genre description
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Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

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15.02.2013 - 16:09
!J.O.O.E.!
Account deleted
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 15.02.2013 at 16:02

As with the metalcore tag in Lamb Of God's genre description

And Shadows Fall too I suspect.
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15.02.2013 - 16:52
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck
Written by Guest on 15.02.2013 at 16:09

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 15.02.2013 at 16:02

As with the metalcore tag in Lamb Of God's genre description

And Shadows Fall too I suspect.


yep, and to be honest even more pathetic Melodic Death Metal (early), Metalcore (later), not a single mention of modern day thrash/groove (whatever you want to call it). Shadows Fall never had anything to do with meodlic death metal.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

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15.02.2013 - 20:11
psykometal
A staff guy...
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 15.02.2013 at 16:52

yep, and to be honest even more pathetic Melodic Death Metal (early), Metalcore (later), not a single mention of modern day thrash/groove (whatever you want to call it). Shadows Fall never had anything to do with meodlic death metal.

Their very first album, Somber Eyes To the Sky, (before Phil left to focus on All That Remains) is melodic death metal. They changed to a more thrash style for Of One Blood with Brian Fair, but that album still contained elements of melodic death metal. Their third album The Art of Balance is when they went straight modern thrash.
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17.02.2013 - 02:17
Bad English
Tage Westerlund
I have seen Wintersun - Time I in all genres in write in bands
why isnt it one person who done it?
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