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The original post

Posted by Erik M. on 05.02.2013 at 22:37
Let me start off by saying I certainly DO NOT believe metal is popmusic. Simply because it isn't accepted by the masses, as well as the fact that metal as a genre isn't well-known by most people (aside from the bad popular metalbands like Slipknot and Korn) and is nowhere to be heard on the radio.

The reason I started this topic is because my father and brother (who know a lot less about metal than me) insisted metal is a subgenre of rock, which are both subgenres of popmusic. Ludicrous in my opinion!

I want some serious replies to prove them (or me) wrong!



Page 2 of 2

Akula

Posts: 78
From: Argentina
  09.02.2013 at 22:28
Written by Lit. on 08.02.2013 at 02:51

Written by Akula on 08.02.2013 at 02:45

Written by Lit. on 07.02.2013 at 19:07

Written by Akula on 07.02.2013 at 17:00

I think you are wrong.

I know you are wrong.

I know the same of you.

Heavy metal comes from blues, period.

...And where do you think rock came from?

Yeah, but that doesn´t mean heavy metal came from rock. both genres shares the same origin.
Jaeryd17‍
Desert Mouse

Posts: 594

Age: 23
From: USA

  10.02.2013 at 00:57
Written by Akula on 09.02.2013 at 22:28

Yeah, but that doesn´t mean heavy metal came from rock. both genres shares the same origin.

I'm pretty sure that heavy metal is technically a subgenre of rock (albeit a very large one). Most of the original bands that created the sound of heavy metal were mostly rock bands, such as Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and even Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. Heavy metal is just harder, heavier rock (you could say that it''s called metal because metal is the refined heavy mineral elements from rocks).

In fact, bands like Judas Priest really ended up defining metal as a huge, separate genre when they removed the blues influence and went for a hard-hitting, heavy rocking sound.
----
"It is not your sin—it is your self-satisfaction that crieth unto heaven; your very sparingness in sin crieth unto heaven!

Where is the lightning to lick you with its tongue? Where is the frenzy with which ye should be inoculated?"

M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1662

Age: 28
From: Australia

  10.02.2013 at 02:24
Quote:
Quote:
Written by Jaeryd17‍ on 10.02.2013 at 00:57

Written by Akula on 09.02.2013 at 22:28

Yeah, but that doesn´t mean heavy metal came from rock. both genres shares the same origin.

I'm pretty sure that heavy metal is technically a subgenre of rock (albeit a very large one). Most of the original bands that created the sound of heavy metal were mostly rock bands, such as Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and even Black Sabbath and Judas Priest.

Sabbath and Priest were blues bands originally.
70's metal was a kind of rock/blues hybrid made louder and heavier. the 80s (and late 70s) saw the introduction of punk influences to metal's sound, where it began to sound like it is today.

Heavy metal is just harder, heavier rock (you could say that it''s called metal because metal is the refined heavy mineral elements from rocks).

Plus metals are usually heavier than rocks. Can we start calling soft rock pummace?
----
GO THE SHARKS!

"I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "How does he know what I'm thinking?" Well I know everything, and so does your internet service provider."
Introspekrieg
Totemic Lust

Posts: 2536

Age: 28
From: USA

  10.02.2013 at 03:33
OH MY GOD.

Quote:
The reason I started this topic is because my father and brother insisted metal is a subgenre of rock, which are both subgenres of popmusic.


So they say it's a sub-subgenre of pop, but still insist that it is pop? I'm confused. Arguing over genres is retarded, especially when people insist on comparing apples to oranges. The purpose of a descriptor is to give people a better idea of what something sounds like without actually having to listen to it. If you describe metal as pop, you are going to disappoint quite a few people expecting to hear something completely different. If you insist on making the point that metal is derived from rock which is derived from blues which somehow makes it pop, I believe you have other issues.
Jaeryd17‍
Desert Mouse

Posts: 594

Age: 23
From: USA

  10.02.2013 at 06:24
Written by Introspekrieg on 10.02.2013 at 03:33

The purpose of a descriptor is to give people a better idea of what something sounds like without actually having to listen to it. If you describe metal as pop, you are going to disappoint quite a few people expecting to hear something completely different. If you insist on making the point that metal is derived from rock which is derived from blues which somehow makes it pop, I believe you have other issues.

Basically this should be the end of the thread right here.
----
"It is not your sin—it is your self-satisfaction that crieth unto heaven; your very sparingness in sin crieth unto heaven!

Where is the lightning to lick you with its tongue? Where is the frenzy with which ye should be inoculated?"

squidrick420

Posts: 187

Age: 22
From: USA

  10.02.2013 at 07:39
Metal is most definitely a sub-genre of rock! In the early days of metal the terms "hard rock" and "metal" were interchangeable and are even still debatable today for bands of that era. They are also both blues/jazz based genres. So the list goes back forever
Megi

Posts: 29
From: Slovak Republic
  11.02.2013 at 15:29
IMHO, all music once came from a Neanderthal throwing a stone at another stone, having it ricochet into another Neanderthals head and it then hitting the floor along with the dazed Neanderthal, thus creating a perfect 4/4 time signature around 130bpm, and the first Neanderthal liking how it sounded. Essentially, all music is related through some kind of influence and/or source. Finding a correlation between pop and metal is very easy, but it doesn't make metal pop. Genres have been classified based on more than a single parallel or a subtle influence. Genres constitute of much more
Guib

Posts: 2061

Age: 23
From: Canada

  12.02.2013 at 01:36
Ok first of, I'd like to say that the first post of this thread is shit... Please don't flame Mainstream metal bands for no reason. I mean, you may not like them, fine by me... But that does not mean its shit and I'm saying this very objectively since I don't enjoy Slipknot nor Korn. Anyways. Now lets make things clear, Pop is only defined by the current ''Movement'' let me explain. In the past we said that Rock was the pop music.. why ? Cuz it was the most popular thing out there just look at The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd and hell Elvis ! So is metal pop ? Maybe not today no certainly not, but if we see the bigger picture, it couldve been in the past yes, no doubt. Considering Led Zepplin, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and Metallica's successes... well Metal once was pop culture material for sure.
----
- I love my technical, melodic, my thrash, agressive and fast paced, my sludge, well thought, my heavy, heavier and my metal, ever-growing -
4look4rd
The Sasquatch

Posts: 769

Age: 22
From: USA

  12.02.2013 at 04:00
Metal generally uses the same instruments and techniques. It generally uses the same song structures. It is build on the same RnB foundation. It is wildly accessible, and it is commercially successful. It is rather homogeneous worldwide. And aside from a few hues darker, it cultivates a similar subculture.

What makes metal not pop aside from our ridiculous sense of superiority?
----
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 36460

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  12.02.2013 at 14:33
Written by 4look4rd on 12.02.2013 at 04:00

Metal generally uses the same instruments and techniques. It generally uses the same song structures. It is build on the same RnB foundation. It is wildly accessible, and it is commercially successful. It is rather homogeneous worldwide. And aside from a few hues darker, it cultivates a similar subculture.

What makes metal not pop aside from our ridiculous sense of superiority?



exactly.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Lit.
Brütal Legend

Posts: 3581

Age: 27
From: USA

  12.02.2013 at 18:39
Written by Megi on 11.02.2013 at 15:29

IMHO, all music once came from a Neanderthal throwing a stone at another stone, having it ricochet into another Neanderthals head and it then hitting the floor along with the dazed Neanderthal, thus creating a perfect 4/4 time signature around 130bpm, and the first Neanderthal liking how it sounded. Essentially, all music is related through some kind of influence and/or source. Finding a correlation between pop and metal is very easy, but it doesn't make metal pop. Genres have been classified based on more than a single parallel or a subtle influence. Genres constitute of much more

The dumbest yet smartest answer on this thread.
----
REPUBLICAN CAR!
Erik M.

Posts: 2441

Age: 27
From: The Netherlands

  12.02.2013 at 23:09
Written by Guib on 12.02.2013 at 01:36

Ok first of, I'd like to say that the first post of this thread is shit... Please don't flame Mainstream metal bands for no reason. I mean, you may not like them, fine by me... But that does not mean its shit and I'm saying this very objectively since I don't enjoy Slipknot nor Korn. Anyways. Now lets make things clear, Pop is only defined by the current ''Movement'' let me explain. In the past we said that Rock was the pop music.. why ? Cuz it was the most popular thing out there just look at The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd and hell Elvis ! So is metal pop ? Maybe not today no certainly not, but if we see the bigger picture, it couldve been in the past yes, no doubt. Considering Led Zepplin, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and Metallica's successes... well Metal once was pop culture material for sure.


A lot of people who don't know anything about metal do know bands like Slipknot and Korn, which kind of gives off the wrong impression of the genre, in my opinion. In other words, when people (not everyone of course) think about metal, they think about those kind of bands. Hence why I mentioned it.

And yeah, you're right for the rest of your post. That being said, I was talking about the present, not the past... so yeah.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 12.02.2013 at 14:33

Written by 4look4rd on 12.02.2013 at 04:00

Metal generally uses the same instruments and techniques. It generally uses the same song structures. It is build on the same RnB foundation. It is wildly accessible, and it is commercially successful. It is rather homogeneous worldwide. And aside from a few hues darker, it cultivates a similar subculture.

What makes metal not pop aside from our ridiculous sense of superiority?



exactly.


I'll take your word for the first few sentences. However, wildly accessible? People in general don't even know what metal music is and which subgenres there are. The popmusic that's on the radio today doesn't even come close to metal, so aside from a few successful bands I wouldn't say metalbands are successful commmercially. Overall metal isn't appreciated mainly because it's too extreme. A lot of people are turned off by extreme vocals for instance. Hell, let me give you an example: I let a collegue of mine listen to Black Seeds On Virgin Soil by Old Man's Child because I was curious of his reaction. He found it to be very depressing and too extreme. Sure, it's just one guy's opinion, but this told me non-metal people have a totally different way of judging the music. Hah, after that I let him and another collegue listen to Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath and they both found it extremely boring and sleep-inducing.
Guib

Posts: 2061

Age: 23
From: Canada

  13.02.2013 at 00:04
Quote:
Written by Erik M. on 12.02.2013 at 23:09



I'll take your word for the first few sentences. However, wildly accessible? People in general don't even know what metal music is and which subgenres there are. The popmusic that's on the radio today doesn't even come close to metal, so aside from a few successful bands I wouldn't say metalbands are successful commmercially. Overall metal isn't appreciated mainly because it's too extreme. A lot of people are turned off by extreme vocals for instance. Hell, let me give you an example: I let a collegue of mine listen to Black Seeds On Virgin Soil by Old Man's Child because I was curious of his reaction. He found it to be very depressing and too extreme. Sure, it's just one guy's opinion, but this told me non-metal people have a totally different way of judging the music. Hah, after that I let him and another collegue listen to Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath and they both found it extremely boring and sleep-inducing.


I don't really understand you there pal. Dude look at Quiet Riot, Van Halen, Kiss, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Whitesnake, Motley Crue, Megadeth, Metallica, Anthrax, Iron Maiden, Dio, Motorhead (...) you wan't more ? This is not TOO extreme, and it is indeed widely known and accessible. You don't need to be a fan to know what metal music is.

I mean if Glam Metal, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal and Nu Metal never were part of Pop Culture, people really missed something out. Like I said in my previous post Im not talking about TODAY's pop culture and I know you understand that, look at the end of the 70's and the 80's, 90's fuck but wait, even 00's... Korn, Slipknot, Godsmack, Systeme Of A Down, Trivium.. c'mon man, you see alot of underground bands filling fests and stadiums, I think not ? Its this Metalhead's fear of the word POP and the word MAINSTREAM that makes us think we're not part of a pop culture... its wrong I tell ya. Its Self Confinement, we so much want to be different from the rest, hence we're not.

Edit: Oh btw, the people you're talking about, maybe they're just not Music addict like most of us in here didn't you think about that ? They probably do know alot of metal bands without knowing its even called metal. lol Oh and what is a GOOD impression or a GOOD perception of what metal is ? Every single genre of metal, IS a legitimate genre of Metal no matter our opinions on the subject, I'm so tired and sick of you people trying to find what is TRUE or NOT TRUE in Metal.. fuck off, every metal band is a metal band no matter if you like it or not, just learn to live with that. It is not because a band hits the charts, wins a grammy, uses dubstep, techno, punk or hip-hop that its not metal anymore. If metal would play the same thing, again and again and again... then now those who say that ''metal is dead'' would be right for once because it would become a bland type of music, boring to the core with nothing new, nothing innovative to bring up on the table.

Meditate on that while drinking a cold beer, don't know why but it does help to meditate lol.

P.S. don't take it personal btw im not attacking you in any way just throwing that out, its just what you said made me think.
----
- I love my technical, melodic, my thrash, agressive and fast paced, my sludge, well thought, my heavy, heavier and my metal, ever-growing -
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 36460

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  13.02.2013 at 11:57
Written by Guib on 13.02.2013 at 00:04



I don't really understand you there pal. Dude look at Quiet Riot, Van Halen, Kiss, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Whitesnake, Motley Crue, Megadeth, Metallica, Anthrax, Iron Maiden, Dio, Motorhead (...) you wan't more ? This is not TOO extreme, and it is indeed widely known and accessible. You don't need to be a fan to know what metal music is.

I mean if Glam Metal, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal and Nu Metal never were part of Pop Culture, people really missed something out. Like I said in my previous post Im not talking about TODAY's pop culture and I know you understand that, look at the end of the 70's and the 80's, 90's fuck but wait, even 00's... Korn, Slipknot, Godsmack, Systeme Of A Down, Trivium.. c'mon man, you see alot of underground bands filling fests and stadiums, I think not ? Its this Metalhead's fear of the word POP and the word MAINSTREAM that makes us think we're not part of a pop culture... its wrong I tell ya. Its Self Confinement, we so much want to be different from the rest, hence we're not.

Edit: Oh btw, the people you're talking about, maybe they're just not Music addict like most of us in here didn't you think about that ? They probably do know alot of metal bands without knowing its even called metal. lol Oh and what is a GOOD impression or a GOOD perception of what metal is ? Every single genre of metal, IS a legitimate genre of Metal no matter our opinions on the subject, I'm so tired and sick of you people trying to find what is TRUE or NOT TRUE in Metal.. fuck off, every metal band is a metal band no matter if you like it or not, just learn to live with that. It is not because a band hits the charts, wins a grammy, uses dubstep, techno, punk or hip-hop that its not metal anymore. If metal would play the same thing, again and again and again... then now those who say that ''metal is dead'' would be right for once because it would become a bland type of music, boring to the core with nothing new, nothing innovative to bring up on the table.

Meditate on that while drinking a cold beer, don't know why but it does help to meditate lol.

P.S. don't take it personal btw im not attacking you in any way just throwing that out, its just what you said made me think.



You and I don't agree on much, but here I agree for the full 110% (oh before some anally retentive guy comes along and says 110% is not possible, yes I know it's not, it's just an expression you dumbnut (not directed at you Guib this, just being pre-emptive here))
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Guib

Posts: 2061

Age: 23
From: Canada

  13.02.2013 at 21:24
Quote:
Quote:



You and I don't agree on much, but here I agree for the full 110% (oh before some anally retentive guy comes along and says 110% is not possible, yes I know it's not, it's just an expression you dumbnut (not directed at you Guib this, just being pre-emptive here))


you see Marcel, its true that we rarely agree, but at least Im glad to see we do on the essential
----
- I love my technical, melodic, my thrash, agressive and fast paced, my sludge, well thought, my heavy, heavier and my metal, ever-growing -
DayFly

Posts: 378
From: Germany

  15.02.2013 at 19:44
@OP: Metal is pop, you should definitely stop listening to it lest it dilutes your anti-mainstream cred.
Erik M.

Posts: 2441

Age: 27
From: The Netherlands

  17.02.2013 at 02:33
Written by Guib on 13.02.2013 at 00:04

I don't really understand you there pal. Dude look at Quiet Riot, Van Halen, Kiss, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Whitesnake, Motley Crue, Megadeth, Metallica, Anthrax, Iron Maiden, Dio, Motorhead (...) you wan't more ? This is not TOO extreme, and it is indeed widely known and accessible. You don't need to be a fan to know what metal music is.

I mean if Glam Metal, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal and Nu Metal never were part of Pop Culture, people really missed something out. Like I said in my previous post Im not talking about TODAY's pop culture and I know you understand that, look at the end of the 70's and the 80's, 90's fuck but wait, even 00's... Korn, Slipknot, Godsmack, Systeme Of A Down, Trivium.. c'mon man, you see alot of underground bands filling fests and stadiums, I think not ? Its this Metalhead's fear of the word POP and the word MAINSTREAM that makes us think we're not part of a pop culture... its wrong I tell ya. Its Self Confinement, we so much want to be different from the rest, hence we're not.

Edit: Oh btw, the people you're talking about, maybe they're just not Music addict like most of us in here didn't you think about that ? They probably do know alot of metal bands without knowing its even called metal. lol Oh and what is a GOOD impression or a GOOD perception of what metal is ? Every single genre of metal, IS a legitimate genre of Metal no matter our opinions on the subject, I'm so tired and sick of you people trying to find what is TRUE or NOT TRUE in Metal.. fuck off, every metal band is a metal band no matter if you like it or not, just learn to live with that. It is not because a band hits the charts, wins a grammy, uses dubstep, techno, punk or hip-hop that its not metal anymore. If metal would play the same thing, again and again and again... then now those who say that ''metal is dead'' would be right for once because it would become a bland type of music, boring to the core with nothing new, nothing innovative to bring up on the table.

Meditate on that while drinking a cold beer, don't know why but it does help to meditate lol.

P.S. don't take it personal btw im not attacking you in any way just throwing that out, its just what you said made me think.


I agree about the first part where you summed up those popular metal bands. However, I still disagree about metal being part of the pop culture... in the past decades it was though, so you're right about that, but now I'm going to talk about the present. Sure, it's a popular genre, but when you actually compare it to "real" pop music (music that's on the radio in general) the difference is huge. Like someone here said, just compare the amount of views of Youtube videos... and obviously there are always metal songs that are very popular, but overall it's a very big difference. Then again, if metal would be considered pop music, then you could basically consider a lot of genres/bands that, since there are always popular bands in certain genres, it's just that only 0,0001% of all metal bands is relatively known to the world, whereas this percentage (which I made up to make my point ) is way higher in genres such as pop and rock music. If you would only listen to metal that you hear on the radio, then you'd know barely anything about metal, right? If you listen to pop and rock on the radio you would know a lot more. Also, like I said, a lot of people just plainly hate metal as a genre... or they think they do because they don't know enough about it. Why? Well, first reason is that the music itself is too heavy for most people. Secondly, pop music has to be rather catchy, how else would it be popular if it didn't remain in your head immediately after one listen? Thirdly, a lot of metal bands have grunts/growls, which is extremely off-putting for most people.

Funnily enough, the people I was talking about listen to pop, rock and dance and are definitely music fans who listen a lot (maybe not addicts, but you get the idea) to their music. Though you're right about them (and probably many others) not knowing when a band is metal or not, since those kind of people think metal is always supposed to be heavy. I asked them a few days ago whether they think metal is a part of pop, which they definitely didn't think it was. So if people who listen to pop and rock music don't even recognize metal as pop, then why should we?

And yep, drinking beer is exactly what I'm going to do right now.

Written by DayFly on 15.02.2013 at 19:44

@OP: Metal is pop, you should definitely stop listening to it lest it dilutes your anti-mainstream cred.


I wish metal was pop, then I could listen to it on the radio without annoying people around me, as well as talking about metal with people that I work with. Not to mention that more great metal bands would finally earn enough money to make a living without having to work shitty jobs like a lot of bandmembers have to do.
Fallen Ghost
Proghead

Posts: 369

Age: 23
From: Norway

  19.02.2013 at 11:11
No, metal is metal, jazz is jazz and pop is pop. Enjoy the friggin' music instead of arguing over where metal comes from
----
"Even we don't know anything about theory and stuff....but this is a combination of lydian mode and phrygian dominant...and ends with a diminished run starting on F"

- Fredrik Åkesson, guitarplayer of Opeth
Erik M.

Posts: 2441

Age: 27
From: The Netherlands

  21.02.2013 at 22:46
Written by Fallen Ghost on 19.02.2013 at 11:11

No, metal is metal, jazz is jazz and pop is pop. Enjoy the friggin' music instead of arguing over where metal comes from


I totally agree. In my first post I explained why I made this topic though.
skrog1

Posts: 111
From: USA

  10.03.2013 at 00:14
Subgenres are their own genres. So by your dad's ideal, no. Metal is most certainly not "pop." Ask him how many times he hears Nile, Slayer, Pantera, Cannibal Corpse, etc. on mainstream radio. That's your answer right there.

That being said, some bands are pop - Ozzy, Slipknot, Metallica; they were able to transcend the genre. That's pretty rare in metal, imo.
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