I really want to know how Metalstormers distinguish these three ? I'm not trying to compare them,but it's not easy to draw a certain line between them.
how the hell would an article on industrial metal help her? Or especially an article on Nu Metal? both have nothing to do with the question asked in the topic title or first post.
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal
Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
In my experience: post-metal is all about the texture, experimental is all about complex rhythms and structures and avant-garde is utilizing new or less common instruments and weird stuff.
Post-metal is something completely different I'd say.
In my experience, post-metal is either post-rock that uses heavier, more metal-ish riffs and also use soft-harsh dynamics in addition to loud-quiet dynamics, or sludge metal, doom metal or metalcore that follows post-rock structures and dynamics. In this regard there is not much experimentation about post-metal, it is quite a formulaic genre.
Avantgarde metal generally refers to stuff that is really weird, not just from a songwriting element (that alone would be prog more than avantgarde), but adding unusual instruments and elements that are very out-of-genre.
Experimental is just a collective term that means what it means. I would not call "experimental metal" to be a genre.
how the hell would an article on industrial metal help her? Or especially an article on Nu Metal? both have nothing to do with the question asked in the topic title or first post.
still its good articles, she might be interested
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which have nothing to do with her question. You might as well have recommended the article on Gothic Metal by Rozzengarten which was a much better article than the one on Nu Metal and the other one. But that one also has nothing to o with the qusetion asked here.
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal
Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
which have nothing to do with her question. You might as well have recommended the article on Gothic Metal by Rozzengarten which was a much better article than the one on Nu Metal and the other one. But that one also has nothing to o with the qusetion asked here.
Reading the comments on that nu metal article gave me cancer though.
So much hypocritical ignorance and few sensible posts lost in the sea of bullshit.
which have nothing to do with her question. You might as well have recommended the article on Gothic Metal by Rozzengarten which was a much better article than the one on Nu Metal and the other one. But that one also has nothing to o with the qusetion asked here.
Reading the comments on that nu metal article gave me cancer though.
So much hypocritical ignorance and few sensible posts lost in the sea of bullshit.
I can't even be bothered to re-read the comments there, again.
But that article of course has nothing to do with the question at hand in this topic
---- Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal
Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996
well the first two links are irrelevant and I'm not very interested in reading about nu metal or industrial, and the third one is quite good but still I have no idea how a band like Celtic Frost is avant Garde , so any music with some sort of exotic stuff and a new blend with a surprising genre is Avant Garde ? ! Am I right ?
Or a band like Peccatume,how can it be Avant Garde... hmmm ?!
Avantgarde and Experimental is the same, Metal with odd elements or odd structure. Post Metal is heavy Post Rock, like Progressive Metal is heavy Progressive Rock.
I don't use the experimental tag , but I suppose experimental could be the music that is still easily identifiable I it's genre. while avant-garde is more eclectic (is that the right word?) and harder to place within a particular genre.
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Experimental is just a collective term that means what it means. I would not call "experimental metal" to be a genre.
That's it, I can't really understand how a band fall into that category.
Sorry for the late response, I was not near a computer for a few days.
Well, I really think you are looking too much meaning into it. I'd say "experimental metal" is just like "melodic metal" or "extreme metal", it means something but it does not carry enough information to be a real genre. I'd say all avantgarde bands fall into experimental metal but not all experimental metal bands are avantgarde.
As for what get labelled avantgarde, that is a bit "unexact", I don't think it can be defined really. Celtic Frost, I doubt it'd be avantgarde by today's standards but when the band released their early works, by that era, it was unusual enoughm hence the label.
But avantgarde in classical art is also a bit unexact and incompasses various different art styles so I guess the term's malleability is hardly a surprise.
Sorry for the late response, I was not near a computer for a few days.
Well, I really think you are looking too much meaning into it. I'd say "experimental metal" is just like "melodic metal" or "extreme metal", it means something but it does not carry enough information to be a real genre. I'd say all avantgarde bands fall into experimental metal but not all experimental metal bands are avantgarde.
As for what get labelled avantgarde, that is a bit "unexact", I don't think it can be defined really. Celtic Frost, I doubt it'd be avantgarde by today's standards but when the band released their early works, by that era, it was unusual enoughm hence the label.
But avantgarde in classical art is also a bit unexact and incompasses various different art styles so I guess the term's malleability is hardly a surprise.
This is yet another example of how strange labels can sometimes be and how a lot of people, both on MS and elsewhere, feel it to be their personal duty to correct anyone they perceive as labeling a band by a wrong genre. Post metal, experimental metal, and avante garde metal are all pretty close to each other in my opinion, despite the very subtle differences between them that some people think make them unique in themselves. I still don't quite understand what post metal even is... something about utilizing song structures and patterns not found in metal? It's a really stupid label in my opinion, because to me that's pretty much what experimental and avant-garde metal is in the first place. From my personal listening though, post metal bands are usually really atmospheric (see Terra Tenebrosa) for instance, experimental metal bands just use very strange and complex song structures (Oranssi Pazuzu), and avante garde bands look to utilize instruments not found in metal (Negura Bunget are a good example with all the Romanian folk instruments they use).
---- I am the Magician and the Exorcist. I am the axle of the wheel, and the cube in the circle. “Come unto me” is a foolish word: for it is I that go.
This is yet another example of how strange labels can sometimes be and how a lot of people, both on MS and elsewhere, feel it to be their personal duty to correct anyone they perceive as labeling a band by a wrong genre. Post metal, experimental metal, and avante garde metal are all pretty close to each other in my opinion, despite the very subtle differences between them that some people think make them unique in themselves. I still don't quite understand what post metal even is... something about utilizing song structures and patterns not found in metal? It's a really stupid label in my opinion, because to me that's pretty much what experimental and avant-garde metal is in the first place. From my personal listening though, post metal bands are usually really atmospheric (see Terra Tenebrosa) for instance, experimental metal bands just use very strange and complex song structures (Oranssi Pazuzu), and avante garde bands look to utilize instruments not found in metal (Negura Bunget are a good example with all the Romanian folk instruments they use).
Post-metal's structuralism, however IS exact. While avantgarde is not. Also avantgarde does not only refers to structure but also weird instruments and just general weird elements so to speak. Imagine the carnival-esque music of Arcturus if you will. Although you stated this yourself.
I honestly don't get why people think the post-metal term sucks, that genre has multiple sub-directions that themselves are relatively formulaic, but what is common that it utilizes post-rock's (which is a pretty formulaic genre in and by itself) slowly evolving, texture and crescendo based structures.
There is post-metal that is just heavier post-rock (Pelican, Russian Circles), that is sludge fused with post-rock (Neurosis, Isis), that is doom fused with post-rock (A Storm Of Light, Mar de Grises), that is metalcore fused with post-rock (Devil Sold His Soul, Amia Venera Landscape), that is djent fused with post-rock (Uneven Structure, Cloudkicker) but the common thing is, that it follows the buildup/crescendo based post-rock songwriting, and significant loud-quiet and soft-harsh dynamics, as well as a heavy emphasis on atmosphere and textures.
Nothing experimental about it since the genre has already established itself.
There is post-metal that is just heavier post-rock (Pelican, Russian Circles), that is sludge fused with post-rock (Neurosis, Isis), that is doom fused with post-rock (A Storm Of Light, Mar de Grises), that is metalcore fused with post-rock (Devil Sold His Soul, Amia Venera Landscape), that is djent fused with post-rock (Uneven Structure, Cloudkicker) but the common thing is, that it follows the buildup/crescendo based post-rock songwriting, and significant loud-quiet and soft-harsh dynamics, as well as a heavy emphasis on atmosphere and textures.
And there you go proving my point. The differences in styles these days are sometimes so small and subtle that it really takes someone who actually cares about the specificities of genres and labels to figure them out. I don't, personally. As far as I'm concerned, metal-wise there's heavy (traditional), thrash, power, doom, black, death, progressive, gothic, avant-garde, and (if you want to include it) nu. Experimental metal doesn't so much strike me as a genre as it is a style, or a technique, if you will. Same for djent, post-metal, and shoegaze. Far too many people these days act as if bands have created entirely new genres simply by slightly altering the formula of another, and it takes much more than that in my opinion.
---- I am the Magician and the Exorcist. I am the axle of the wheel, and the cube in the circle. “Come unto me” is a foolish word: for it is I that go.
There is post-metal that is just heavier post-rock (Pelican, Russian Circles), that is sludge fused with post-rock (Neurosis, Isis), that is doom fused with post-rock (A Storm Of Light, Mar de Grises), that is metalcore fused with post-rock (Devil Sold His Soul, Amia Venera Landscape), that is djent fused with post-rock (Uneven Structure, Cloudkicker) but the common thing is, that it follows the buildup/crescendo based post-rock songwriting, and significant loud-quiet and soft-harsh dynamics, as well as a heavy emphasis on atmosphere and textures.
And there you go proving my point. The differences in styles these days are sometimes so small and subtle that it really takes someone who actually cares about the specificities of genres and labels to figure them out. I don't, personally. As far as I'm concerned, metal-wise there's heavy (traditional), thrash, power, doom, black, death, progressive, gothic, avant-garde, and (if you want to include it) nu. Experimental metal doesn't so much strike me as a genre as it is a style, or a technique, if you will. Same for djent, post-metal, and shoegaze. Far too many people these days act as if bands have created entirely new genres simply by slightly altering the formula of another, and it takes much more than that in my opinion.
Experimental is not a genre, I have stated it myself above.
However post-metal, djent and shoegaze are. The latter is not a metal genre however, and never will be.
Please realize the stylistic derivations I have stated above are actually not that different. Sludge itself is a fusion of hardcore and doom, and that means those the post-metal bands that utilize the above three are going to sound quite similiar to one another.
Whenever I listen to a post-metal band that is unknown to me, the VAST MAJORITY of the time, I'm going to know how it will sound. There are always exceptions but they DO have an established sound and that alone warrants for a genre.
As for djent and shoegaze, I don't get the confusion either. Isn't everyone's and their mother's problem with djent how the bands sound very alike one another? What do you want to refer to them as? Progressive metal, so that it gets confused with the Dream Theater type pointless jam session bands? Even more pointless and unexact than "djent". Math metal? Fine but djent is pretty much synonymous with it. Post-post-thrash metal? I think I need not to comment on this one.
As for shoegaze -
this is how it sounds like and this is how it sounded like since the 80s. You can draw similarities with post-punk and post-rock but this is nontheless different from both.
Of course there will be stylistic derivations, but there is for every genre. There are some shoegaze bands that emphasise distorion, some have more clear riffs. There are some djent bands that downtune and are heavy, there are some that are more ambient-sounding. There are some post-metal bands that are soaring and beautiful, there are some that are murky and suffocating, BUT the overall style is still the same.
Apologies if I came across as harsh, was unintended, but, no offense, I'm a bit in disbelief.
I really really do not understand why you accept avantgarde and nu as genres, but post-metal djent and shoegaze as not.
As I understand, your problem is, they do not refer to a single form of sound but more of a broad collection, and that is why I am in disbelief.
I barely accept avantgarde as a genre, because, avantgarde bands ALL differ in their weirdness. The point of genres is catalogization. Like, you encounter a band and you like it and you want more bands that sound similiar, so you look up the band's genre.
When you do that with an AG band, you will get something that is totally totally different because their weirdness is not uniform. That is why I mostly view AG as a prefix, like avantgarde black metal.
Same goes for nu, just to a lesser extent. There are nu bands that are basically hip-hop with downtuned guitars, there are nu bands that are hard rock/heavy metal with relatively simplistic downtuned riffs and more bro vocals, etc etc. It is definitely not a uniform sound.
The three genres you are questioning are much more uniform in sound. I hear Isis, I want something similiar, look up post-metal, I get something similiar. I hear Tesseract, I like it, I look up djent, I get something similiar. I hear Ride, I like it, I look up shoegaze and I get something similiar. Etc.
Also, I don't think Terra Tenebrosa is post metal at all. Avantgarde/experimental black metal is what I hear.
It kinda floats in and out in my opinion. "The Mourning Stars" in particular is a good example to me. But then again, like I said, maybe I'm still just not entirely comprehending what post metal is supposed to sound like. The specificities of experimental, avant-garde, and post just blur together so much to me that it's kinda pointless arguing about what makes them different. The same can be said of people who get pissed when you mislabel between doom, stoner, and sludge metal. They're all more or less under the same umbrella of sound, it's just these tiny fucking differences that set them apart and make people so nitpicky about telling one from the other.
---- I am the Magician and the Exorcist. I am the axle of the wheel, and the cube in the circle. “Come unto me” is a foolish word: for it is I that go.
The specificities of experimental, avant-garde, and post just blur together so much to me that it's kinda pointless arguing about what makes them different.
I agree with you about experimental and avantgarde but I cannot lump post metal in with those two. I can tell what is post metal and what isn't and 99% of the time those two genres aren't ever mentioned in the same breath as post. Then again I am a post metal aficionado so I may be a bit brain washed.
An example in the 1%...how about...Todtgelichter - Angst
It kinda floats in and out in my opinion. "The Mourning Stars" in particular is a good example to me. But then again, like I said, maybe I'm still just not entirely comprehending what post metal is supposed to sound like. The specificities of experimental, avant-garde, and post just blur together so much to me that it's kinda pointless arguing about what makes them different. The same can be said of people who get pissed when you mislabel between doom, stoner, and sludge metal. They're all more or less under the same umbrella of sound, it's just these tiny fucking differences that set them apart and make people so nitpicky about telling one from the other.
Well to those who are well versed in those genres the difference is not tiny at all.
But it is the same for everything. Show a DM and a BM album to someone who never listened to heavy/harsh music and they will say it sounds the same.
Well to those who are well versed in those genres the difference is not tiny at all. But it is the same for everything. Show a DM and a BM album to someone who never listened to heavy/harsh music and they will say it sounds the same. Does not mean they are.
Fair enough
---- I am the Magician and the Exorcist. I am the axle of the wheel, and the cube in the circle. “Come unto me” is a foolish word: for it is I that go.
I used to feel the same, but I've taken some time to try to better comprehend the differences and I can say I have gotten better enough at identifying Post. I can honestly say I know there is a difference, even though I still struggle to properly determine it, thanks to some back and forth with Rod and Joe. I used to not be able to tell the difference between Doom and Sludge either, but I've gotten better at that as well thanks to Marcel and Erik.
I consider Terra Tenebrosa as Avantgarde, not black or post metal at all. Avantgarde is typically regarded as a genre (i.e Avantgarde metal), but some also use it as a prefix to indicate when a band is playing a "weird" version of a genre (ex: Arcturus' first album is considered Avantgarde Black metal). Experimental is not a genre, just a prefix that many add to indicate when a band is playing a rather experimental version of a genre (i.e. Experimental Black metal).
Calling Avantgarde and Post "similar" is ridiculous. How could anybody ever say that bands like Arcturus and Unexpect are "similar" (in any way) to bands like Isis and Neurosis?! Those 2 examples sound NOTHING alike; aside from the fact that all of them use mics/guitars/bass/drums to play their music.
apos;'
Those 2 examples sound NOTHING alike; aside from the fact that all of them use mics/guitars/bass/drums to play their music. 