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deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  28.03.2014 at 01:58
I've always wondered how much control governments have over their intelligence services.

And now it turns out, not much - key Senators involved with intelligence committees have accused the CIA of spying on the Senate, obstruction and generally not obeying government directives.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/us-usa-cia-interrogations-idUSBREA2A0XY20140311

9-11 was a godsend for all these intelligence services who got their budgets massively ramped up and were given new powers.


Yet they still couldn't predict the Arab Spring or Russian actions in Crimea!
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38165

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  28.03.2014 at 02:23
Dude soon CIA will spy on you if you open those articles

FBI cheef what was his name in 60's did same, so its new Edgar Hivert was his name?

I think they predicted rab spring, but its not a treth to USA , not even Lybia where mostly was involved France, and only Baltic state leaders predicted shit when Rus aiforce trained attack to Gotland and move troops and made a traings close by. Put Islander rockets in ocupied Kenignerg and so on, USA maybe knew more but Europe is blind somehow .... BTW If Doku Urlamow would plan act in Rus I hope CIA wont warnb Putin
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Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  28.03.2014 at 02:46
Arab Spring was a threat to the US once aligned leaders like Hosni Mubarak began to fall.

That threatened the peace treaty with Israel, access to Suez canal etc.

In one interview, a key US intelligence chief said they were caught unawares by the Arab Spring and due to changes in government had losts a lot of their contacts.

It was J. Edgar Hoover who was head of the FBI and misused it for it's own power..
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38165

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  28.03.2014 at 02:52
Written by deadone on 28.03.2014 at 02:46

Arab Spring was a threat to the US once aligned leaders like Hosni Mubarak began to fall.

That threatened the peace treaty with Israel, access to Suez canal etc.

In one interview, a key US intelligence chief said they were caught unawares by the Arab Spring and due to changes in government had losts a lot of their contacts.

It was J. Edgar Hoover who was head of the FBI and misused it for it's own power..


Egypt only bnecausepeace of isreal and Mobrak regime hunt down muslim brotherhood, what terorist oganisation, maybe they shold hunt them more?
but othr whole N Afric its mor etreth to Europe as to USA in soon future, in years ... Afga is example,. US stingers hunt down soviet choppers, ... after 20 years US bases
I think US more shoul look in Turkey as NATO , since Turkey banned twitter and YT ...
Ukr is diferent I think putin didnt hink Ukr will go seperate way and wont be pupet., because folk well ukraians want EU and I think this is what Putin didnt see(same as he dont see that many Russians hae him)
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  28.03.2014 at 03:03
I just noticed an article on Turkey muzzling twitter and youtube.

Erdogan obviously wants to rebuild the Ottoman Empire. Scary stuff indeed.
ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 3150

Age: 23
From: Serbia

  28.03.2014 at 10:11
So are you making this popy/"trendy" threads becouse you are bored or becouse of ego-boust ?!

anyway its nothing new that agencies spy on everyone ,the rise of technology and its presence is suitable for them a lot.I have some bacground in information security (defense and offfense) and i say that 70% of you guys get monitored 70% of time spent on internet.Mostly by industry for maketing peurposes but also many other organisations.

Also gouvermnets never had any control over inteligence agencies because the two difffer in core : gouvenment can be overthrown or changed but the agency remains the same system for years,decades ...agency just sometimes have survival of it as a prirmary target not the benefit of people.So dont be surprised its a natural thing ,however it also rise a questions of privacy.Privacy is dead my friend.You are only free in your mind and that soon might become threatened.
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38165

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  28.03.2014 at 13:23
Deaddone - Turkish ppl are more ready to freedon then ''soviet russian'' are
so Erdogaj regime can fall in next elections and besides if he wont go, Turky is famose whit militarists... in Islam states arny must rule, they dont care much about religion and extre islamists will suffer
Turkey is biggest super Power (military think) in Europe bigger then UK, Ger and Grance .... and if Rus/Arm will try take Nagarony Karabah , and attack to Azerbajan then Turky wull joun in the war , I think Rus are afraid of Turkey

Angel I agree -- Stazi is example , east Ger secvret police, then many becaime neo nazies
best time for it was Cold War, many great movies are made about cold war spys. Harry Palmer, James Bond and others
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  31.03.2014 at 00:43
Bad English, I agree ona numnber of your points about Turkey's military possibly toppling Erdogan's government if it sees it going too far out of control..


Turkey does have a massive military. It is also largely obsolete - for example out of several thousand tanks, only 300 are modern Leopard 2s and the rest is a hodgepodge of older Leopard Is, M60s and ancient M48s. It's air defence force is also obsolete - this is why NATO has deployed Dutch, German and US Patriot SAM batteris there.

Navy is the same - some new ships and lots of older, albeit upgraded ones.

It's air force is pretty modern - there's 200+ F-16s backed up by 50 upgraded F-4 Phantoms. They're lacking in AWACS though (4 ordered) and Electronic Warfare.


Turkey is a member of NATO of course so it has access to the USA.


I also prefer Harry Palmer flicks to James Bond ones. More gritty and real. Michael Caine was superb in those.



Angel Reaper: governments do control intelligence services, especially through budgets. Slash the budget and the agency's power has been reigned in. This has happened before - indeed the CIA was relatively reduced in power after Cold War ended.
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38165

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  31.03.2014 at 01:39
Deaddone - in Turkey naouvrs only one country has modern army ad it never willatttack to Turkey . I am talking about Isreal
rest one has old soviet shit, you dont need modern ship to fight whit curds,

Hary Palmer is good, I want get unnoficial in Finland, thatwere acion was in Finland

I agree about it and there many movies hwo CIA make some acts to do not cut budget... IMO biggest CIA and NSA shit was spy on NATo and EU alies ... but same times, ppl sauy USA spy, same does China, Russia spys as well, all are spying
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  31.03.2014 at 02:25
Written by Bad English on 31.03.2014 at 01:39

Deaddone - in Turkey naouvrs only one country has modern army ad it never willatttack to Turkey . I am talking about Isreal
rest one has old soviet shit, you dont need modern ship to fight whit curds,



Greeks have a massive and modern military too. And there's been no cut backs either, despite massive economic problems.

Greek military is mind boggling in terms of size - more fighter planes and tanks than Britain or France, same number of frigates as Britain, large submarine force including modern German Type 214s.

All for a small country with a mere 11 mlllion people.

Basically the Greeks tried to keep up a 2:3 ratio with the Turks - for every 3 Turkish soldiers/planes/tanks/ships etc the Greeks would field 2. Conventional military wisdom states that an attacker needs at least a 2:1 advantage over a defender, so the Turks were never in a superior position with numerical superiority of only 3:2.

The Americans supported this ratio with military aid between 1950s and 1970s. Both the Turks and Greeks were equipped with exactly the same equipment at roughly the same ratio in order to maintain balance of power.



As for Israel, they could never attack Turkey in any substantial way (other than nukes) - the Turkish navy is much larger than the Israeli one, and the Turkish air force is capable enough to make any aerial attack on Turkey by Israel too risky.
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38165

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  31.03.2014 at 02:31
Written by deadone on 31.03.2014 at 02:25

Written by Bad English on 31.03.2014 at 01:39

Deaddone - in Turkey naouvrs only one country has modern army ad it never willatttack to Turkey . I am talking about Isreal
rest one has old soviet shit, you dont need modern ship to fight whit curds,



Greeks have a massive and modern military too. And there's been no cut backs either, despite massive economic problems.

Greek military is mind boggling in terms of size - more fighter planes and tanks than Britain or France, same number of frigates as Britain, large submarine force including modern German Type 214s.

All for a small country with a mere 11 mlllion people.

Basically the Greeks tried to keep up a 2:3 ratio with the Turks - for every 3 Turkish soldiers/planes/tanks/ships etc the Greeks would field 2. Conventional military wisdom states that an attacker needs at least a 2:1 advantage over a defender, so the Turks were never in a superior position with numerical superiority of only 3:2.

The Americans supported this ratio with military aid between 1950s and 1970s. Both the Turks and Greeks were equipped with exactly the same equipment at roughly the same ratio in order to maintain balance of power.



As for Israel, they could never attack Turkey in any substantial way (other than nukes) - the Turkish navy is much larger than the Israeli one, and the Turkish air force is capable enough to make any aerial attack on Turkey by Israel too risky.


yes Greece but they army is not as it was ask greeks, many go there as tralalla, since non feel treths and greeks and turks keep armies, because were afraid of each others and 70's was diferent I think Greece was most closed to fall in comies hand as other so calld free lands, Turkey to, but Greece more closer ... and greece, turkey was like more less easier fo soviet sitens to go, and more easier for est Europians and it was like spying shit place .... and 11th november brigade and other greek groups ....
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  31.03.2014 at 02:40
The Greek army is still potent on paper in terms of numbers of standing formations etc.

As to how it would perform in a real war is anyone's guess.
Reverend X

Posts: 54

Age: 39
From: Philippines

  31.03.2014 at 09:12
Information is power. It dictates policy.
Metal is powerful. It unites the people.
M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1764

Age: 28
From: Australia

  31.03.2014 at 11:47
Written by ANGEL REAPER on 28.03.2014 at 10:11

So are you making this popy/"trendy" threads becouse you are bored or becouse of ego-boust ?!


Office job, too much free time probably.
----
"I can hope my ass is made of ice cream, but that don't make me a hot fudge sundae."

"I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "How does he know what I'm thinking?" Well I know everything, and so does your
ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 3150

Age: 23
From: Serbia

  31.03.2014 at 11:58
Written by M C Vice on 31.03.2014 at 11:47

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 28.03.2014 at 10:11

So are you making this popy/"trendy" threads becouse you are bored or becouse of ego-boust ?!


Office job, too much free time probably.

dunno man i would probably waste that time on learning skills and knowledge to get out of that job
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  01.04.2014 at 00:58
Written by ANGEL REAPER on 31.03.2014 at 11:58


dunno man i would probably waste that time on learning skills and knowledge to get out of that job



Why? It pays AUD$90,000 per annum with automatic pay rises twice a year and involves very little hard work.
no one

Posts: 2255

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  01.04.2014 at 01:01
I don't get why just because you work for the government you get auto pay rises every year, it's the same with my wife, her job is also cruzy as fuck
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hipster fag
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  01.04.2014 at 01:46
Written by no one on 01.04.2014 at 01:01

I don't get why just because you work for the government you get auto pay rises every year, it's the same with my wife, her job is also cruzy as fuck



One is an automatic years of service pay rise and the other is award increases.
no one

Posts: 2255

Age: 31
From: New Zealand

  01.04.2014 at 01:57
Written by deadone on 01.04.2014 at 01:46

Written by no one on 01.04.2014 at 01:01

I don't get why just because you work for the government you get auto pay rises every year, it's the same with my wife, her job is also cruzy as fuck



One is an automatic years of service pay rise and the other is award increases.

here's your award for doing fuck all.

the auto thing should be for everyone
----
hipster fag
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 38165

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  01.04.2014 at 02:34
Work for govemnet your incomes dont rise, work for CIA you ca wanish whit big money easier as normal ppl
I would love to work in inteligance agences
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 3150

Age: 23
From: Serbia

  01.04.2014 at 10:11
Written by deadone on 01.04.2014 at 00:58

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 31.03.2014 at 11:58


dunno man i would probably waste that time on learning skills and knowledge to get out of that job



Why? It pays AUD$90,000 per annum with automatic pay rises twice a year and involves very little hard work.

cause i hate more to be bored all the time than pretending to work ... its just me but if the work would bore the hell out of me i would either quit it or drill my brain out ....
maybe if i needed money that much i would stay but in other cases not.
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1764

Age: 28
From: Australia

  01.04.2014 at 10:20
Written by deadone on 01.04.2014 at 00:58

Written by ANGEL REAPER on 31.03.2014 at 11:58


dunno man i would probably waste that time on learning skills and knowledge to get out of that job



Why? It pays AUD$90,000 per annum with automatic pay rises twice a year and involves very little hard work.

Twice what I get, and I don't always have a lunch break.
----
"I can hope my ass is made of ice cream, but that don't make me a hot fudge sundae."

"I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "How does he know what I'm thinking?" Well I know everything, and so does your
ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 3150

Age: 23
From: Serbia

  01.04.2014 at 13:48
Written by deadone on 31.03.2014 at 00:43


Angel Reaper: governments do control intelligence services, especially through budgets. Slash the budget and the agency's power has been reigned in. This has happened before - indeed the CIA was relatively reduced in power after Cold War ended.

if you believe that is the case ,you are terriblly wrong.... that is just facade for masses... there is some level of control ,but i think that there is stuff that services do on their own...

come on... if something belongs to state (on paper;in theory) than why would i trust state that state agency is working according to state laws,expecially when state can change laws or make some "lex specialis" .i mean sure some degree of controll exists but agencies are far more stronger than that (expecially the big and well organised ones).
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
Kirg

Posts: 19
From: Czech Republic

  01.04.2014 at 17:25
Written by deadone on 28.03.2014 at 01:58
9-11 was a godsend for all these intelligence services who got their budgets massively ramped up and were given new powers.


Yet they still couldn't predict the Arab Spring or Russian actions in Crimea!



This really begs a question. If you take news with grain of salt and connect the facts and see bigger picture... The more you think about what's happening and what media tells you the more absurd and untrue it sounds.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  02.04.2014 at 00:31
Written by ANGEL REAPER on 01.04.2014 at 13:48

if you believe that is the case ,you are terriblly wrong.... that is just facade for masses... there is some level of control ,but i think that there is stuff that services do on their own...

come on... if something belongs to state (on paper;in theory) than why would i trust state that state agency is working according to state laws,expecially when state can change laws or make some "lex specialis" .i mean sure some degree of controll exists but agencies are far more stronger than that (expecially the big and well organised ones).



Except once budgets are slashed, there is no money for operations or equipment and the agency shrinks in power.

The other thing is government controls the employment of managers of these agencies. If the government wants a more controllable manager, then they employ one. Governments do this all the time - every time we change government here in Australia, there's a purge of management.


Finally there's legislation and resulting oversight mechanisms - getting busted acting against the law is not good even if you are an intelligence service.


The Australia Security Intelligence Organisation had it's HQ raided by Australian Federal Police in the 1970s because ASIO was illegally spying on politicians. The result was ASIO lost a lot of prestige and a lot of power due to legislative changes.

It actually wasn't restored to any great deal until 9-11.



In this case the CIA is acting rogue - it's acting against the state that owns it.
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4167
From: Australia

  02.04.2014 at 00:38
Written by Kirg on 01.04.2014 at 17:25

This really begs a question. If you take news with grain of salt and connect the facts and see bigger picture... The more you think about what's happening and what media tells you the more absurd and untrue it sounds.

Is this conspiracy theory building?

The current Crimean situation shows the lack of success by the CIA in continuing to maintain a presence in Russia. The Americans and EU would have acted differently if they were paying attention to what Russia would do.

The current turmoil with Russia is bad news for European security, bad news for Syrian chemical weapons disarmament, bad news for Korean peninsula and bad news for the Iranian nuclear talks.

It also completely undermines the Americans by having another country act against American wishes. No such thing as American hegemony if the Russians and anyone else simply does what it wants, regardless of Washington's wishes.

Arab Spring was completely unexpected by Western governments (and thus by implication its intelligence agencies).

The Arab Spring cost the Americans a major ally in the form of Mubarak (though the Egyptian military quickly acted to restore military rule), nearly lost a major naval base in Bahrain as well another important ally in Yemen.

However relations with Egypt are still strained (indeed Americans have shut off delivery of weapons due to public pressure).
ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 3150

Age: 23
From: Serbia

  02.04.2014 at 11:41
Written by deadone on 02.04.2014 at 00:31

Except once budgets are slashed, there is no money for operations or equipment and the agency shrinks in power.

The other thing is government controls the employment of managers of these agencies. If the government wants a more controllable manager, then they employ one. Governments do this all the time - every time we change government here in Australia, there's a purge of management.

Finally there's legislation and resulting oversight mechanisms - getting busted acting against the law is not good even if you are an intelligence service.

The Australia Security Intelligence Organisation had it's HQ raided by Australian Federal Police in the 1970s because ASIO was illegally spying on politicians. The result was ASIO lost a lot of prestige and a lot of power due to legislative changes.

It actually wasn't restored to any great deal until 9-11.

In this case the CIA is acting rogue - it's acting against the state that owns it.

im just saying that ,services are though organizations,which sometimes have just one goal -to survive the administration changes.
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
Kirg

Posts: 19
From: Czech Republic

  03.04.2014 at 18:46
Written by deadone on 02.04.2014 at 00:38

Is this conspiracy theory building?

The current Crimean situation shows the lack of success by the CIA in continuing to maintain a presence in Russia. The Americans and EU would have acted differently if they were paying attention to what Russia would do.

The current turmoil with Russia is bad news for European security, bad news for Syrian chemical weapons disarmament, bad news for Korean peninsula and bad news for the Iranian nuclear talks.

It also completely undermines the Americans by having another country act against American wishes. No such thing as American hegemony if the Russians and anyone else simply does what it wants, regardless of Washington's wishes.

Arab Spring was completely unexpected by Western governments (and thus by implication its intelligence agencies).

The Arab Spring cost the Americans a major ally in the form of Mubarak (though the Egyptian military quickly acted to restore military rule), nearly lost a major naval base in Bahrain as well another important ally in Yemen.

However relations with Egypt are still strained (indeed Americans have shut off delivery of weapons due to public pressure).


I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories but I also don't overlook facts. And there are few quite important contradicting facts about what happened on Ukraine. A government that was formed after revolution/coup was immediately recognized as a rightful by EU and USA but when people on Crimea wanted to decide their own fate it's suddenly wrong and "non-democratic"? Media spread some rumours about ocupation but that seems to be just unconfirmed rumours. An Ukraine nationalists condoning a deal with IMF? They are already being endebted and bleeding money out of the country.
There is undoubtful presence of some foreign influence within ukraine and cia and co. are most probably knee-deep in all of this. It's just that somebody else spoiled their plan partially.

Russia ain't threat to world. I've been following news about them passing laws to regain more control of their own banking system and economy. A country without a debt is obviously a good thing as government can spend money on people's welfare rather than debt interests. But they also won't be under anyone's control and that's bad for those who want to have the upper hand.

And perhaps Washington should just keep to themself. If they were only observing situation but they are meddling with other country's affairs. If there's threat to world's freedom it ain't nobody's army.

I hope that you don't find my post offensive as it's not meant to be. People know only what media tells them and truth is rarity indeed. Hence you might not now about uprising until it has began and there are things you'll never hear about(like Iceland revolution in ~2010). But once you start looking for more information, cracks in stories will begin to reveal the truth.

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