Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 22:14
Metal is an art form, not a freaking religion or some sort of political faction with beliefs set in stone, its a form of artistic expression just as painting is, so proportions should not really come into question here.

False analogy. Painting and metal are not comparable in the way you are trying to make them, the correct comparison would be painting and *music*. Or perhaps metal and (for example) expressionism.

Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 22:43

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 22:14
Metal is an art form, not a freaking religion or some sort of political faction with beliefs set in stone, its a form of artistic expression just as painting is, so proportions should not really come into question here.

False analogy. Painting and metal are not comparable in the way you are trying to make them, the correct comparison would be painting and *music*. Or perhaps metal and (for example) expressionism.

Wow, and the point of that was? And yes it is a fine analogy, sorry I wasn't more specific, I assume most people could see the point I was getting at.

EDIT: The more I look at it, the more I notice your post makes absolutely no contribution to your argument.

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 22:14

Metal is an art form, not a freaking religion or some sort of political faction with beliefs set in stone, its a form of artistic expression just as painting is, so proportions should not really come into question here.

That is how I view it; as art. If I want to use a form of art, in this case Metal, for discipleship and evangelism, what is wrong with that? If you don't want to listen to Living Sacrifice, Extol, Dream Theater, Demon Hunter or Stryper, then don't. If you don't want to come to one of our worship services, don't. We're not forcing anyone to believe what we believe, why should Metalheads here force their own interpretations of what Metal is supposed to be upon us?

Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 23:03

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 22:14

Metal is an art form, not a freaking religion or some sort of political faction with beliefs set in stone, its a form of artistic expression just as painting is, so proportions should not really come into question here.

That is how I view it; as art. If I want to use a form of art, in this case Metal, for discipleship and evangelism, what is wrong with that? If you don't want to listen to Living Sacrifice, Extol, Dream Theater, Demon Hunter or Stryper, then don't. If you don't want to come to one of our worship services, don't. We're not forcing anyone to believe what we believe, why should Metalheads here force their own interpretations of what Metal is supposed to be upon us?

Yeah I really dont see why this whole thing is coming into question. If I wanted to write a metal song about how good the sandwich I made for lunch was, then so be it, just because my lyrical content is not of the norm it wouldnt make it any more or less metal.

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 22:58

Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 22:43

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 22:14
Metal is an art form, not a freaking religion or some sort of political faction with beliefs set in stone, its a form of artistic expression just as painting is, so proportions should not really come into question here.

False analogy. Painting and metal are not comparable in the way you are trying to make them, the correct comparison would be painting and *music*. Or perhaps metal and (for example) expressionism.

Wow, and the point of that was? And yes it is a fine analogy, sorry I wasn't more specific, I assume most people could see the point I was getting at.

EDIT: The more I look at it, the more I notice your post makes absolutely no contribution to your argument.

Sorry, I'll try to explain again using fewer big words, I guess. Comparing metal to painting is pointless: you are comparing an artistic movement with an art form. Art forms are neutral, but specific artistic movements have specific ideas integrated within them. Hence to say metal is neutral in the sense that painting is would be idiotic.

Written by Dane Train on 20.07.2008 at 23:03
...why should Metalheads here force their own interpretations of what Metal is supposed to be upon us?

They shouldn't, and that isn't what happens. Metal is what it is, whatever aesthetics of it are taken aside for whatever perverted use you choose does not affect it.

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 23:09
If I wanted to write a metal song about how good the sandwich I made for lunch was, then so be it, just because my lyrical content is not of the norm it wouldnt make it any more or less metal.

We've been over this, I'm interested in discussing metal in a holistic sense, not in a superficial and compartmentalized one.

Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 23:23

They shouldn't, and that isn't what happens. Metal is what it is, whatever aesthetics of it are taken aside for whatever perverted use you choose does not affect it.

Then I guess I'll continue to pervert it.

On a side note, this is really interesting.

Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 23:23

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 22:58

Written by totaliteraliter on 20.07.2008 at 22:43

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2008 at 22:14
Metal is an art form, not a freaking religion or some sort of political faction with beliefs set in stone, its a form of artistic expression just as painting is, so proportions should not really come into question here.

False analogy. Painting and metal are not comparable in the way you are trying to make them, the correct comparison would be painting and *music*. Or perhaps metal and (for example) expressionism.

Wow, and the point of that was? And yes it is a fine analogy, sorry I wasn't more specific, I assume most people could see the point I was getting at.

EDIT: The more I look at it, the more I notice your post makes absolutely no contribution to your argument.

Sorry, I'll try to explain again using fewer big words, I guess. Comparing metal to painting is pointless: you are comparing an artistic movement with an art form. Art forms are neutral, but specific artistic movements have specific ideas integrated within them. Hence to say metal is neutral in the sense that painting is would be idiotic

Ok, then wheres the proof that this artistic movement is specifically integrated with what your trying to prove here? It seems your creating a definition of metal based on your own personal opinion.

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 00:00
Ok, then wheres the proof that this artistic movement is specifically integrated with what your trying to prove here? It seems your creating a definition of metal based on your own personal opinion.

It's pretty simple, just look at dominant themes in important works coming from the movement. Individualism, freedom, reason, power - speaking very broadly and basically - these are things found in metal that moves forward. As traditional metal has evolved into thrash and black and death and folk, we should not have a difficult time detecting that the trend is one that moves beyond or against Christianity (among other things).

Written by totaliteraliter on 21.07.2008 at 01:51

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 00:00
Ok, then wheres the proof that this artistic movement is specifically integrated with what your trying to prove here? It seems your creating a definition of metal based on your own personal opinion.

It's pretty simple, just look at dominant themes in important works coming from the movement. Individualism, freedom, reason, power - speaking very broadly and basically - these are things found in metal that moves forward. As traditional metal has evolved into thrash and black and death and folk, we should not have a difficult time detecting that the trend is one that moves beyond or against Christianity (among other things).

There is an equal amount of bands that are either pro-christian or dont choose either side. If you were to perhaps say these things about black metal id have to agree, but you seem to be ignoring all the bands not even dealing with religion. Metal is far too big now to call just one musical movement, that and most early metal bands who started the genre are not anti-christian at all, despite having religious lyrical content. Besides, its a music, the fact that you seem to think that lyrical content is more important than the actual music is laughable.

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 02:11
There is an equal amount of bands that are either pro-christian or dont choose either side.

Evaluating art is not an exercise in democracy.

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 02:11
If you were to perhaps say these things about black metal id have to agree, but you seem to be ignoring all the bands not even dealing with religion.

Not at all, art does not have to deal explicitly with religion for the ideas contained within to be compared against something (such as a certain religion).

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 02:11
Metal is far too big now to call just one musical movement, that and most early metal bands who started the genre are not anti-christian at all, despite having religious lyrical content.

I am not arguing that metal is explicitly or exclusively anti-Christian; please review previous recent posts in this thread that I have made.

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 02:11
Besides, its a music, the fact that you seem to think that lyrical content is more important than the actual music is laughable.

Here we go again: compartmentalization. I do not place greater importance on any one aspect of the art, such as sound or words. I look at the art holistically, in context. That you would suggest that the art should be taken out of context, arbitrarily divided into different parts, and that certain parts should be inherently judged as more important: that is laughable. You need to engage music on its own terms if you hope to understand it.

I am just curious what you all think about the fact that Metal came from Rock and Rock was based in Blues and Gospel music in the begin?

Written by totaliteraliter on 21.07.2008 at 02:23

Evaluating art is not an exercise in democracy.

WTF? How self contradicting. I think I'll let you spill all your ideas out from the start next time, it'd definitely be far more efficient. Anyways, firstly, you were the one talking about proportions. Secondly, WHEN THE HELL WAS I EVALUATING ART?! Im just saying that you cant simply say what you were saying because you can name off a few genres that consist mostly of anti-christian bands, because there are an equal amount of bands that dont deal in religious topics, or are not anti-christian. You answer all my arguments with irrelevant answers: 1+2=yellow.

Written by Dane Train on 21.07.2008 at 02:30
I am just curious what you all think about the fact that Metal came from Rock and Rock was based in Blues and Gospel music in the begin?

As a fact this statement is simplistic to the point of uselessness. Metal may have come in part from gospel, but metal is not gospel. And irony does not render art powerless.

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 02:38

Written by totaliteraliter on 21.07.2008 at 02:23

Evaluating art is not an exercise in democracy.

WTF? How self contradicting. I think I'll let you spill all your ideas out from the start next time, it'd definitely be far more efficient. Anyways, firstly, you were the one talking about proportions.

Proportions of aspects of the art and their relative importance. Not proportions of bands in the scene as if they were of equal importance. Apples and oranges.

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 02:38
Secondly, WHEN THE HELL WAS I EVALUATING ART?!

This is what we are doing when we ask, "what is metal"?

Written by Doc G. on 21.07.2008 at 02:38
Im just saying that you cant simply say what you were saying because you can name off a few genres that consist mostly of anti-christian bands, because there are an equal amount of bands that dont deal in religious topics, or are not anti-christian. You answer all my arguments with irrelevant answers: 1+2=yellow.

I have addressed why what equal amounts of bands are doing is of limited relevance above. And I suppose I must repeat myself: a band does not have to deal explicitly with religion to be pertinent to this issue - broad themes like rebellion, freedom, and individual power can be expressed by metal without a word regarding religion or spirituality. These themes can still be measured in terms of compatibility with certain religious ideals. The argument is, again, not that metal is or must be anti-Christian, but that at its most progressive and powerful it is often vitally anti-Christian, nonChristian, uninterested in or incompatible with Christianity. Metal's relationship with this particular religion perhaps cannot be characterized in a single term, but this complexity should not be confused with ambivalence or neutrality.

...thus I will continue making Metal music to praise God. I don't care if Metal is anti-Christian, non concerned, or whatever. I am going to take that sound and use it for praise and worship, for expressing my faith and relaying that message to others. To write lyrics about sex, drugs, violence, abuse, murder, death, war, abuse of religion, destruction of our lands, corrupt political systems, greedy televagelists with the tonality of Metal. If the overwhelming majority of Metal bands are against what I am doing, tough. If members on this website despise The Flame Within, too bad.

Written by Dane Train on 21.07.2008 at 03:28
If the overwhelming majority of Metal bands are against what I am doing, tough.

This isn't really about hate or conflict, it's about categorization and evaluation.

Written by totaliteraliter on 21.07.2008 at 03:44

Written by Dane Train on 21.07.2008 at 03:28
If the overwhelming majority of Metal bands are against what I am doing, tough.

This isn't really about hate or conflict, it's about categorization and evaluation.

For the love of god. Music is music, metal is metal, I apologize, I didn't know you were the final say on what metal is.

Written by totaliteraliter on 21.07.2008 at 01:51

It's pretty simple, just look at dominant themes in important works coming from the movement. Individualism, freedom, reason, power - speaking very broadly and basically - these are things found in metal that moves forward. As traditional metal has evolved into thrash and black and death and folk, we should not have a difficult time detecting that the trend is one that moves beyond or against Christianity (among other things).

Genres are separate from the rest because of what they exhibit in their music, which reflects what they idealize.

Christianity with its tolerance probably belongs more in emo, rock, jazz, blues or any of the other majority genres out there.

Man it is so great to be called Satan Worshiper The problem here like whit anything else is that reaction from the people comes from their knowledge so therfore it is so obvious that he who criticize is a person who doesn't know anything about what is he criticizeing.

I agree with Norm and Terrorist,from my experience people who don't listening metal consider metal heads as idiots who doing drugs,without education,with life lost in vain.There are always exceptions,but i met a lot intelligent and saccesfull people who listening metal,so it's stupid to watch things in general. Behind all that judging it's fact that people who think like that really don't know almost anything about metal music and style,i don't see why should if i see for example guy who listening hip hop consider him for some gangsta maniac just because someone represent this culture like that,it's stupid to judge when you even don't know anything about that.People consider normal only things thay get used to,it really rare to find someone openminded to learn about something new,not only reject because he never been there before.But still i kinda like all we are different on some way but still the same deep inside,it give us space to be unique and create something different,but still we are part of the same "group"as everyone.

Written by totaliteraliter on 18.07.2008 at 23:17

This is because you metal is something more superficial for you, note the distinction I made: your definition of metalhead does not include any requirement such as "understanding of and identification and solidarity with the art." Christians can enjoy metal just fine, but there inevitably comes a point where the two ideologies come into conflict. Either the individual's Christianity or devotion with metal must be marginalized or compartmentalized or simply taken less seriously.

If that's the case, then every single one of us are a compartmentalizing metalhead. That is, of course, unless you like every single band that has ever come into existence.

For instance, in my particular subjective instance of being a metalhead, I find that I cannot stand bands such as The Devil Wears Prada or Asking Alexandria. From what I've heard of the genre, I dislike the sound of metalcore, and so I don't listen to it. My personal construct is built in a way that tends to eschew that particular brand of metal. Does that mean I'm not a metalhead for refusing to embrace that particular aspect/genre? I wouldn't think so. Still, this is, in essence, the same circumstance as an individual who considers themselves both a metalhead and a Christian.

While I also listen to metal for it's anti-Christian themes (having grown up Christian and moved away from the ideology myself), and I may agree with some of your other points made earlier on in the thread, I can't help but to point out the invalidity of the logic in this post.

I thought people got over this phase a long time ago.

Written by Guest on 21.01.2013 at 18:58

I thought people got over this phase a long time ago.

I assume you're referring to the original post and not another comment in the thread? If so, people as a whole definitely haven't gotten over this phase. It's like racism. Most people may have accepted equality and gotten over things, but there's still some people who think that black people should be slaves to white people. They're few, but they're out there.

In this case, there are still stupid videos claiming that metal is part of an Illuminati conspiracy to help Satan take over the youth of the world and drag their souls to hell.

For instance:


It's a massive steaming pot of chunky bullshit, but people seriously believe this kind of crap.

EDIT: In fact, I just checked out the site. This video may have been made by people who are a part of that site.

EDIT 2: Holy shit, I didn't realize that I just revived a topic with its most recent post being from 2009.

Written by Guest on 21.01.2013 at 18:58

I thought people got over this phase a long time ago.

yeah

Written by Dane Train on 21.07.2008 at 03:28

abuse of religion

what ?! abuse of religion?!
Religion is abusive by nature.

Written by Warman on 08.05.2007 at 16:52

I'll quote Alice Cooper from "Metal - A Headbanger's Journey":
The satanism you see in Metal is not satanism, it's some kind of... caricature of satanism. If you're looking for satanism, first of all do not look after it in rock n' roll. A bunch of kids running around, playing guitars loud and do the devil sign... that's Halloween.

I'm not saying that Metal has nothing to do with satanism, but surely you shouldn't blame all the bands for being "Satan's music", that's just naive.

a bunch of kids ? hmm :/ it's kinda looking down on musicians whatever, I really agree with Alice Cooper quotation up to some extent that the music is a kinda of caricature of satanism,but if it's caricature of satanism, it yet comes from reality , there is that reality that many people don't like that side , don't want to be into any kind of religious games , they're sick and tired of it and somewhat have been hurt by it, so they're reflecting back what have been always on their nerve, so the religious parties should accept this bitter side of their own bitter truth.


They shouldn't blame all the music for being about promoting "Satan", but I should say if metal music wasn't about bashing on religion or joking about them,perhaps I wasn't into it this much,also I should add that I don't really care about lyric theme in songs so much, but the whole atmosphere in this music is kinda being rebellion, and if this music lacked to be rebellious in any kind of it, again I might not be into it THIS MUCH and perhaps I could lose some parts of my interest in it .

Written by Guest on 22.01.2013 at 08:53

Written by Dane Train on 21.07.2008 at 03:28

abuse of religion

Religion is abusive by nature.

Are you been crushed under "Islam" if I am not mistaken?

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 22.01.2013 at 10:40

Written by Guest on 22.01.2013 at 08:53

Written by Dane Train on 21.07.2008 at 03:28

abuse of religion

Religion is abusive by nature.

Are you been crushed under "Islam" if I am not mistaken?

it's off-topic question,what's the difference ? 90% are forced to them to"Islam" or "Christianity"

This will always be a debate for the rest of time. There's to scientific proof or evidence. I think its just an excuse for people to bash metal. My opinion.

Written by Jaeryd on 22.01.2013 at 07:21

Written by Guest on 21.01.2013 at 18:58

I thought people got over this phase a long time ago.

I assume you're referring to the original post and not another comment in the thread? If so, people as a whole definitely haven't gotten over this phase. It's like racism. Most people may have accepted equality and gotten over things, but there's still some people who think that black people should be slaves to white people. They're few, but they're out there.

In this case, there are still stupid videos claiming that metal is part of an Illuminati conspiracy to help Satan take over the youth of the world and drag their souls to hell.

For instance:


It's a massive steaming pot of chunky bullshit, but people seriously believe this kind of crap.

EDIT: In fact, I just checked out the site. This video may have been made by people who are a part of that site.

EDIT 2: Holy shit, I didn't realize that I just revived a topic with its most recent post being from 2009.

Interesting video man. Ill have to give it a watch.

Just lock this topi, jesus. You can't even make an intelligent response to these posts.