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The original post

Posted by Bitter Dawn on 07.06.2007 at 05:38
Today being June 6, 2007 marks the anniversary date of the Fantoft Church that was burnt down in 1992, of course by Varg Vikernes, and has been fifteen years since his actions.

I doubt there will be any arson's in honour or vain of that memoriable day that help set the flame within black metal, and I am surprised that nothing happen last year since it was a more appropriate version of 06-06-06. Yet, last Febuary on Vargs birthday someone in Ontario, Canada set fire to a church in his honour, of which I was very surprised.

I am not advocating people and go out today and burn down a church, but it has been such a big focal point of black metal that I thought it was worth mentioning today.



Page 10 of 12

Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37741

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  22.08.2009 at 18:22
Written by The Night Wisher on 22.08.2009 at 17:28

There's something called "Law of the country" which is the most dominating force in any community, Christianity is a religion and every person has the right to be a christian or whatever he wants, so when someone wanna be an Anti-Christian he should be respectable not an abuser looking only for cursing and burning, so when an individual become an abuser for any religion he'll be facing a lawsuit [especially If he messed up with his behavior] ,so Extreme bands are not serious at all, cuz If they were serious they would be facing the law, so it's all about "Shock Value" and I once read an interview with the guitarist of Cradle of Filth and he said "People doesn't have take all of our lyrics seriously" so Extreme stuff as I believe is meaningless in lyrics. And some people take the whole Black Metal scene too serious as for guys becomes a real satanists (not like BM bands which appears to be satanists in name only) they start taking drugs and abuse animals (of course that's so rare to happen) but whenever something like that happens, the people whom is responsible will be punished by the laws, there is a lot of bands make "Anti Religion" albums with effecting lyrics with reasons with realistic stuff, with a point of view not just stupid reverted crosses and pentagrams, I recommend Arch Enemy for anyone who wants anti religion stuff and for anyone who's convinced that religion is not the right way in life.


Good posts and I agree whit you but church n law is strongm if someone beat bla bla person in bar non cares, if someone burn church all world talk, personaly I think footbvall hollifganism is better how burn churches, but somehow fore all BM be better if Varg geth death penalty for murder un burn or etleast life , in USA he get ir or life but arryan brotherhood deal whit it like they didnt protect Charles Menson
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Hellkommando

Posts: 255
From: Australia

  22.08.2009 at 19:42
Nice post dude, I think whether you agree or disagree with the church arsons it is a day of note in black metal. It doesn't seem that it was that long ago either, time sure does fly. And cheers for the post and reminder.
----


Formerly Desolate Gale
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37741

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  22.08.2009 at 19:57
Written by Hellkommando on 22.08.2009 at 19:42

Nice post dude, I think whether you agree or disagree with the church arsons it is a day of note in black metal. It doesn't seem that it was that long ago either, time sure does fly. And cheers for the post and reminder.


nah nowdays I think church buyrning is nothing to do whit music , its be good if lables wont release those bands albums and they be banned, becauuse its nothing to do whit muisc,
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  22.08.2009 at 20:28
Music shouldnt be banned because of anything...such a band members should be arrested according to the law, but never ban music because of what musicians do...
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37741

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  22.08.2009 at 21:06
Written by Ellrohir on 22.08.2009 at 20:28

Music shouldnt be banned because of anything...such a band members should be arrested according to the law, but never ban music because of what musicians do...


Well do you be sad if all Burzum be banned, its be fun read shoutbox, but well people say metalheads are unicteloerctual, bla bla, but such actrs make us look like monsters, shame moust of metalheads speecly black fans accept and make Varg a hero , arrest is ok, but some more brutal ending whiot shooting eb good when cops hunt them down
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Hellkommando

Posts: 255
From: Australia

  22.08.2009 at 21:16
Written by Bad English on 22.08.2009 at 19:57

Written by Hellkommando on 22.08.2009 at 19:42

Nice post dude, I think whether you agree or disagree with the church arsons it is a day of note in black metal. It doesn't seem that it was that long ago either, time sure does fly. And cheers for the post and reminder.


nah nowdays I think church buyrning is nothing to do whit music , its be good if lables wont release those bands albums and they be banned, becauuse its nothing to do whit muisc,


I am not talking about "nowdays", of course these events/burnings are significant in the history of black metal, Ellrohir sums it up, nothing should stop the music simply for what the musician does.
----


Formerly Desolate Gale
Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37741

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  22.08.2009 at 21:21
Written by Hellkommando on 22.08.2009 at 21:16

Written by Bad English on 22.08.2009 at 19:57

Written by Hellkommando on 22.08.2009 at 19:42

Nice post dude, I think whether you agree or disagree with the church arsons it is a day of note in black metal. It doesn't seem that it was that long ago either, time sure does fly. And cheers for the post and reminder.


nah nowdays I think church buyrning is nothing to do whit music , its be good if lables wont release those bands albums and they be banned, becauuse its nothing to do whit muisc,


I am not talking about "nowdays", of course these events/burnings are significant in the history of black metal, Ellrohir sums it up about nothing should stop the music simply for what the musician does.


Its historby, but still its nothing to be proud of it and , its like fuckjing talleban bomb n blow historical budhist monuments in Afganistan
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
Hellkommando

Posts: 255
From: Australia

  22.08.2009 at 21:24
Written by Bad English on 22.08.2009 at 21:21

Written by Hellkommando on 22.08.2009 at 21:16

Written by Bad English on 22.08.2009 at 19:57

Written by Hellkommando on 22.08.2009 at 19:42

Nice post dude, I think whether you agree or disagree with the church arsons it is a day of note in black metal. It doesn't seem that it was that long ago either, time sure does fly. And cheers for the post and reminder.


nah nowdays I think church buyrning is nothing to do whit music , its be good if lables wont release those bands albums and they be banned, becauuse its nothing to do whit muisc,


I am not talking about "nowdays", of course these events/burnings are significant in the history of black metal, Ellrohir sums it up about nothing should stop the music simply for what the musician does.


Its historby, but still its nothing to be proud of it and , its like fuckjing talleban bomb n blow historical budhist monuments in Afganistan


That is simply your opinion, I have my own as well.
----


Formerly Desolate Gale
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  22.08.2009 at 22:37
I think this belongs to my interpretation of "freedom of expression"...i claim everyone should SAY anything he want, even denying holocaust or saying loudly rasistic crap...no excuse for them when they use power against others, but thats another thing, words are words, should harm you only when you let them harm you....and music is nothing but words as well...

musican burned down temple or murdered anyone? well, no excuse for him, send him into jail...but ban his music as a part of punishment? or band someones music because he is singing about burning down temples or murdering anyone? hell, no way!
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


Dangerboner
:D

Posts: 7190

Age: 27
From: USA

  26.08.2009 at 08:58
Written by Bad English on 22.08.2009 at 21:06

Written by Ellrohir on 22.08.2009 at 20:28

Music shouldnt be banned because of anything...such a band members should be arrested according to the law, but never ban music because of what musicians do...

unicteloerctual

I have never seen this word before. What's the definition?
----
Written by muthafucka on 30.06.2010 at 00:47

your mom is 7000 yr old because your a dinosaur

Written by John Barleycorn on 11.11.2010 at 14:17
I am not in general a fan of wankery but I can enjoy some good masturbation from time to time
Bitter Dawn
Ave Sathanas!

Posts: 843

Age: 30
From: Canada

  26.08.2009 at 09:48
Written by Dangerboner on 26.08.2009 at 08:58

Written by Bad English on 22.08.2009 at 21:06

Written by Ellrohir on 22.08.2009 at 20:28

Music shouldnt be banned because of anything...such a band members should be arrested according to the law, but never ban music because of what musicians do...

unicteloerctual

I have never seen this word before. What's the definition?


unintelligible? Perhaps he meant to make up the word "unintellectual"?... smart ass :p


I'm some what surprised to see this thread pop up. Honestly though, I think BM has become full of pussies, for the most part. Mayhem although still amazing, seem a lot less extreme than they use to be, Shining is more avant garde than DSBM now, one of the most intelligent and left-handed figure in BM - Jon Nödtveidt (Dissection) is dead, and although I've nothing against gay people at all but the most recent figures in BM who caught attention like the old days turned out to be gay with some prissy male model (Gaahl). Not to mention how commercial the genre has become.

Varg himself is not even worth getting into, but his actions of the past (disregarding how they were mostly driven by teenage angst, and to make a name for himself, and the fact that the churches were still very pagan) showed what it would take to make a stand in this genre, and in a strong way gave birth to what black metal represents; anti-christianity.
I still condone church burning, because any one (and seemingly every one now) can create some half ass black metal with abrassive lyical content but, to actually go out and act on what you say is completely differant.
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  26.08.2009 at 11:10
I have remembered one story - i have claimed that "synonyms" of black metal for me are "war", "hatred", "destruction" but my opponent in discussion said for him it is "mystery", "philosophy", "inner feelings" etc... so probably it depends on which from BM you choose...he is a big fan of Emperor and Ishan for instance
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


rageing atheist
Account deleted
  26.08.2009 at 12:44
Frankly I have more respect for someone who goes out and lights a church when it's in accordance with his or her beliefs, than some wastes of oxygen who talk about fighting a war against christianity, whereas the said "war" is limited to releasing demos/albums limited to 14/88/666 copies, posing with medieval weapons and ridiculous makeup, and making bold statements in underground fanzines that are read by maybe 200 people.

EDIT: thought I'd clarify that by talking I do not mean in lyrics (which are often symbolic or metaphorical), but more in interviews/statements, when people adopt this kind of stance like "blablabla...we're fighting a war against Christ...blablabla...we're the misanthropic elite soldiers of Satan/Thor... blablabla...we will crush our enemies...blablabla... *more empty words*."
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  26.08.2009 at 12:56
And i like such a people more
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


Warman
Erotic Stains

Posts: 7437

Age: 24
From: Sweden

  26.08.2009 at 15:34
Written by Guest on 26.08.2009 at 12:44

Frankly I have more respect for someone who goes out and lights a church when it's in accordance with his or her beliefs, than some wastes of oxygen who talk about fighting a war against christianity, whereas the said "war" is limited to releasing demos/albums limited to 14/88/666 copies, posing with medieval weapons and ridiculous makeup, and making bold statements in underground fanzines that are read by maybe 200 people.

I see what you mean there, very interesting. Haven't thought about that. I rather not get involved in this discussion, simply because I don't know what to think. I'm against Christianity, but I would never go as far as some people would/does/did.
----


"The Bro Code" article 72: A bro never spell-checks.
rageing atheist
Account deleted
  26.08.2009 at 16:57
Written by Warman on 26.08.2009 at 15:34

I see what you mean there, very interesting. Haven't thought about that. I rather not get involved in this discussion, simply because I don't know what to think. I'm against Christianity, but I would never go as far as some people would/does/did.


I am not saying that disliking christianity has to go hand in hand with extreme acts against it, if I would I'd be a hypocrite, but I think that when people claim to be, for instance fighting or "in war" with something, and take a very extreme and militant stance in their words, but fail to back it up with actions, then this seemingly extreme and militant stance amounts to nothing more than some kind of ego masturbation, which is pretty low in my opinion.

Something like burning a church at least takes some balls and sacrifices (risk of getting caught and punished), unlike making seemingly extreme statements under some kind of anonymous pseudonym like Goatraper 666 or whatever.
Dane Train
Beers & Kilts

Posts: 8894

Age: 30
From: USA

  26.08.2009 at 18:04
Here is my question: What good did burning down some churches do? Did people really think burning down a handful of buildings was going to all of a sudden eradicated the 2 Billion Christians in the world and thousands of years of faith?

Just look at how much of the world has Christianity as the main faith:


Looks like Black Metal as a lot of work to do.
----
(space for rent)
TheBigRossowski
Dudeist Priest'

Posts: 1192

Age: 27
From: Germany

  26.08.2009 at 18:14
Written by Dane Train on 26.08.2009 at 18:04

Here is my question: What good did burning down some churches do? Did people really think burning down a handful of buildings was going to all of a sudden eradicated the 2 Billion Christians in the world and thousands of years of faith?

Just look at how much of the world has Christianity as the main faith:


Looks like Black Metal as a lot of work to do.


I concur, but I also find this map statistically wrong. Besides, I wouldn't refer to a graph, but numbers anyways. Funny that you post it because I was looking over it last night on Wikipedia. There is a better graph when you look up ''Religious Statistics 2008'' (Google). Anyways, numbers are still more reflective than these graphs. Just look at Sweden, from the last statistics that I saw, 75% of the people said they held no belief in a higher power (with a combination of Atheists and Agnostics).

Anyways, it still makes no sense to combat Christianity, especially with silly black metal antics.
----
That rug really tied the room together, did it not?
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  26.08.2009 at 18:14
So lets warm up torches and go kick some christian asses

Black metal ist krieg!

----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


Dane Train
Beers & Kilts

Posts: 8894

Age: 30
From: USA

  26.08.2009 at 18:26
Written by TheBigRossowski on 26.08.2009 at 18:14

I concur, but I also find this map statistically wrong. Besides, I wouldn't refer to a graph, but numbers anyways. Funny that you post it because I was looking over it last night on Wikipedia. There is a better graph when you look up ''Religious Statistics 2008'' (Google). Anyways, numbers are still more reflective than these graphs. Just look at Sweden, from the last statistics that I saw, 75% of the people said they held no belief in a higher power (with a combination of Atheists and Agnostics).

Anyways, it still makes no sense to combat Christianity, especially with silly black metal antics.


True, that map may not be the most statisitically correct, but I think it gives a good glimpse as to how much of the world has Christian churches in it.

On a separate note from that but still pertaining to this topic: Not too long ago I had some Black Metal kids (I think the oldest must have been 23 and the youngest maybe 15) tell me how they were on a crusade to destroy Christianity. So I sat down and talked with them for a while and had what could be called an "interesting" conversation. It became very apparent that they actually knew very little about the actual teachings of the Gospels and just wanted to lash against someone and feel like they were powerful. My favorite part was when I asked them to lay out all the things they were disgusted with in the world. After about a hour of they describing everything came the real mindfuck for them: they were apposed to the same exact things that Christ was.
----
(space for rent)
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  26.08.2009 at 18:34
Btw i found very possitive, Czech republic seems to be the only country in Europe, where non-religious people are dominant
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 36420

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  26.08.2009 at 18:39
Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 18:34

Btw i found very possitive, Czech republic seems to be the only country in Europe, where non-religious people are dominant


Actually in The Netherlands non-religious people also outnumber religious people.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

TheBigRossowski
Dudeist Priest'

Posts: 1192

Age: 27
From: Germany

  26.08.2009 at 18:41
Written by Dane Train on 26.08.2009 at 18:26

Written by TheBigRossowski on 26.08.2009 at 18:14

I concur, but I also find this map statistically wrong. Besides, I wouldn't refer to a graph, but numbers anyways. Funny that you post it because I was looking over it last night on Wikipedia. There is a better graph when you look up ''Religious Statistics 2008'' (Google). Anyways, numbers are still more reflective than these graphs. Just look at Sweden, from the last statistics that I saw, 75% of the people said they held no belief in a higher power (with a combination of Atheists and Agnostics).

Anyways, it still makes no sense to combat Christianity, especially with silly black metal antics.


True, that map may not be the most statisitically correct, but I think it gives a good glimpse as to how much of the world has Christian churches in it.

On a separate note from that but still pertaining to this topic: Not too long ago I had some Black Metal kids (I think the oldest must have been 23 and the youngest maybe 15) tell me how they were on a crusade to destroy Christianity. So I sat down and talked with them for a while and had what could be called an "interesting" conversation. It became very apparent that they actually knew very little about the actual teachings of the Gospels and just wanted to lash against someone and feel like they were powerful. My favorite part was when I asked them to lay out all the things they were disgusted with in the world. After about a hour of they describing everything came the real mindfuck for them: they were apposed to the same exact things that Christ was.


Very typical in the black metal ''scene'' and not just in America either! We have that non-sense here too, even with a handful of Neo-Nazis (a.k.a. NPD!). They don't really know why they think a certain way and they've never bothered to seek out reason.

(Un)Fortunately, I was raised as a Christian (as stated somewhere...here...) and so I know all these stories and a decent amount about the bible. Of course, I'm not a Christian any more, but it's still fascinating to here other peoples thoughts on these matters.

Good luck with the war on Christianity guys, lol.
----
That rug really tied the room together, did it not?
TheBigRossowski
Dudeist Priest'

Posts: 1192

Age: 27
From: Germany

  26.08.2009 at 18:53
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.08.2009 at 18:39

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 18:34

Btw i found very possitive, Czech republic seems to be the only country in Europe, where non-religious people are dominant


Actually in The Netherlands non-religious people also outnumber religious people.


I think he was basing his opinion off the map shown above. The Czech Republic is all gray...but we got the whole gay purple thing going on. I doubt Germany is a Christian nation, just as much as I doubt that America was founded by Christians.
----
That rug really tied the room together, did it not?
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 36420

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  26.08.2009 at 18:54
Written by TheBigRossowski on 26.08.2009 at 18:53

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.08.2009 at 18:39

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 18:34

Btw i found very possitive, Czech republic seems to be the only country in Europe, where non-religious people are dominant


Actually in The Netherlands non-religious people also outnumber religious people.


I think he was basing his opinion off the map shown above. The Czech Republic is all gray...but we got the whole gay purple thing going on. I doubt Germany is a Christian nation, just as much as I doubt that America was founded by Christians.


That's what I realised later on.
Just look at India as if that is 100% Hindu where in fact about 30% is actually muslim. And ffs look at AFrica hahaha
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

TheBigRossowski
Dudeist Priest'

Posts: 1192

Age: 27
From: Germany

  26.08.2009 at 19:04
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.08.2009 at 18:54

Written by TheBigRossowski on 26.08.2009 at 18:53

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 26.08.2009 at 18:39

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 18:34

Btw i found very possitive, Czech republic seems to be the only country in Europe, where non-religious people are dominant


Actually in The Netherlands non-religious people also outnumber religious people.


I think he was basing his opinion off the map shown above. The Czech Republic is all gray...but we got the whole gay purple thing going on. I doubt Germany is a Christian nation, just as much as I doubt that America was founded by Christians.


That's what I realised later on.
Just look at India as if that is 100% Hindu where in fact about 30% is actually muslim. And ffs look at AFrica hahaha


Yeah... the graph is definitely a false representation, but the numbers are quite clear...and astonishing. Germany:

Christian-53.5 million (65%)
Islam-3.3 million (4%, less than I thought, but still a lot)
Others (Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.)-247,000 (0.30%)

However, 25% of the population answered "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force" in the Eurobarometer Poll 2005.
----
That rug really tied the room together, did it not?
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  26.08.2009 at 19:19
Written by TheBigRossowski on 26.08.2009 at 18:53

I doubt that America was founded by Christians.


actually...it was...havent you ever heard about Mayflower? those were Christians like hell...and people like those were the first inhabitants...especially because protestants were quite pursued in Europe, so they were escaping to "New World"
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6718

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  26.08.2009 at 19:32
Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 18:34

Btw i found very possitive, Czech republic seems to be the only country in Europe, where non-religious people are dominant

Well, I personally don't find it a positive thing....

But you fail anyway....Estonia is the least religious country on EARTH.... http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/2009/02/11/5-least-religious-countries-in-the-world.html

Then again...there is very little or almost no records of any religious activity on Estonian territory before the German conquest which means that mayb Estonians were the first atheists in the world anyway....I can't say it's a Finno-Ugric thing because Finns and Samis have their native beliefs and traditions, our traditions, however, are based on Catholic cult of saints mainly....

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 19:19

Written by TheBigRossowski on 26.08.2009 at 18:53

I doubt that America was founded by Christians.


actually...it was...havent you ever heard about Mayflower? those were Christians like hell...and people like those were the first inhabitants...especially because protestants were quite pursued in Europe, so they were escaping to "New World"


Mayflower even gave the name to the Mayflower way of thinking....the way is "We are the first! We found, we create etc." You see, there were native Americans before the Puritans in America....also, the French and Spanish and Dutch were in America first....

Plus...Puritans did a lot of things that are in essence very demonic and not Christian at all....all these things were also done by the Spaniards....

Mayflower way of thinking was also applied to Baltic Germans who arrived in Estonia and wrote themselves to history as the first people in Estonia (my ancestors most probably didn't qualify as people...)...

Then again...yes, the Germans built our beautiful medieval towns the Chinese and Japanese tourists nowadays love so much....now all of it is ours haha...
----
Go ahead, make my day...
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  26.08.2009 at 19:44
Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 19:32

But you fail anyway....Estonia is the least religious country on EARTH


we are ranked fifth then...still good enough

and i dont see anything positive on being religious - i dont need something called "god" to live my life...i only feel sorry for people with weak will, who do need "him"...
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


Ernis
狼獾

Posts: 6718

Age: 26
From: Estonia

  26.08.2009 at 19:51
Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 19:44

we are ranked fifth then...still good enough

and i dont see anything positive on being religious - i dont need something called "god" to live my life...i only feel sorry for people with weak will, who do need "him"...

Well...as long as you're a nice good person and not an ass, then everything is all right....indeed you don't need to be religious...there are not religious people who can be as angels and there can be religious people who are monsters....

Have you only met religious people with weak will? I bet there are also religious people with very strong will out there....
I also bet those Spanish people who killed Native Americans and the religious political leaders have very strong will to do all the shit they do...of course, I don't know how religious they actually are....religion doesn't depend on willpower....
----
Go ahead, make my day...

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