Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 19:56

Well maybe i used wrong word...i meant they are "afraid to live own lives" and "seeking for some master to guide them"...otherwise i really dont understand what God should be good for...i have only faith in myself, because there is only me to fight the world...i am my god...thats my philosophy and "religion"...

I wished to write one more thing....

If you ask me who I feel sorry for....answer is...I feel sorry for religious people and "professionally" religious people who think they're suddenly so much better than anyone else just because they're religious, that they're some kind of chosen ones and that all others suck big time....
I also feel sorry for people who say that they're so much better than others because they are not religious and have so super hyper high ego and willpower that it automatically makes them better....I've really seen some people who beat against their chest and say "I'm baptised but I don't give a shite! I'm a strong person and don't need any God...Religion is for losers only!"...as if they're only saying it as an excuse for something....

None of it makes any person better or worse...it all depends on how the person behaves and treats people around him and himself as well....

Well i dont really mean it that bad...i only cannot understand why do people believe in God and this is one of the reasons i was able to think up...give me better explanations, if you can

To make everything perfectly clear, I was not advocating churchburnings or some kind of "war against christianity", I was merely stating that in theory I find an act like burning down a church because of personal convictions to be much less ridiculous than some clowns with make-up claiming to be "fighting a war" by releasing shitty limited editions of their albums and making inane statements.

Why in theory? Because from watching interviews from documentaries on Youtube with Kjetil Manheim (Mayhem's first drummer) I've gotten the impression that the Norwegian churchburnings in the early 90'ties had more to do with young insecure guys looking for group acceptance, than any serious convictions, which is pretty stupid reason for torching a church imo. Obviously I do not claim to know what was going on in the minds of people involved, this is just the impression I've gotten.

So basically my point was that if someone's going to burn down a church because of strong personal convictions, then this in my eyes seems a lot more respectable than someone who talks about "fighting a war" and being a "soldier of Satan" or whatever, while in reality doing nothing besides sitting on his ass and drinking beer.

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 19:32

..our traditions, however, are based on Catholic cult of saints mainly....

Where do you take this information from?

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 20:01

None of it makes any person better or worse...it all depends on how the person behaves and treats people around him and himself as well....

that's pretty much the crux of the issue.

people can be good or can be absolute assholes with or without religion.

just like tyrants can twist religion or "theoretically socially beneficial" ideology to commit attrocities.

Written by Guest on 26.08.2009 at 20:39

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 19:32

..our traditions, however, are based on Catholic cult of saints mainly....

Where do you take this information from?

Days of St. Catherine, Martin, Bartholomew, Knud, Peter, Matthew, Anthony...the list goes on and on and on....altho many traditions and days of the old national calendar of Estonia are nowadays obsolete, the traditions were once there such as sacrificing a pig's head on the day of St. Anthony, I also remember pig being the particular animal attributed to that saint which means why pig's head was offered to Tõnn....

There should also be at least three festivities of Mary, Mother of God...for instance Ussimaarjapäev on the 08th of September is actually Mary's birthday but the name in Estonian calendar is associated with the belief that the snakes will enter hibernation that day...the day of Mary's death and ascension to Heaven was also a festivity in Estonian calendar under the name of Rukkimaarjapäev....not to mention Heinamaarjapäev and other numerous festivities....I even found a day of St. Eudoxia in Estonian national calendar altho I don't know who that lady was....

as you may know, most of these are forgotten now....

If you come to tell bout Tara(pita), then Tara is most probably a derivation of Thor and this was venerated on the islands due to contact with Scandinavians...
One deity reported is Peko, a fertility elf from Setu folkolre...that's the only thing they have recorded....

Written by BitterCOld on 26.08.2009 at 20:53

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 20:01

None of it makes any person better or worse...it all depends on how the person behaves and treats people around him and himself as well....

that's pretty much the crux of the issue.

people can be good or can be absolute assholes with or without religion.

just like tyrants can twist religion or "theoretically socially beneficial" ideology to commit attrocities.

That's my point...however, every now and then some goths and alternative people come out with statements à la "I decided not to wear jewellery with crosses any more...I just can't take the pain and crimes against humanity the Christians have cause any more!"

Well both "most important feasts" in christian calendar - Christmas and Easter are originally pagan...another day with pagan roots is 30th of April - "the night of witches"...

dunno how in Estonia, but i can remember only St. Valentine day from our country and this is commercial shit, no christian tradition...then, well we have bank holidays as the Anniversary of burning Mr. Jan Hus and the Arrival of Cyril and Method, but those are more likely real historical dates important for culture and politics, though based somehow on Christianity...i know in Slovakia they have church fests like "The day when St. Mary entered heaven" (dunno how to translate it in english properly ) which are bank holidays, but nothing like this is in Czech...

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 22:22

dunno how in Estonia, but i can remember only St. Valentine day from our country and this is commercial shit, no christian tradition...

Well, in world's leading atheist country Estonia St. Valentine's day is commercial indeed...as are most festivities...when it's Val's day people run to buy flowers and spend money on pointless cute accessories...when it's Christmas, everyone's stressed because all family and relatives are expecting presents and you need to buy special food for it....St. John's day also requires extra money to be spent on grilling equipment, meat, sausages and since lots of people like to celebrate on the islands, the queues for the ferry are endless....

You mention the day when Mary went to heaven....I found a description of this holiday as it was celebrated in Estonia...

The day of Mary's ascension to heaven was related to changing of nature. By that day the people had to have finished the work on the fields, piling the hay and in some places cutting the barley (the day is called Barley Mary Day).
For the people it was a work holiday, they organised a feast and enjoyed the free time. In some places people set up the feast table inside the sauna/banya/lázně because they wanted the spirits of the ancestors to participate at the feast as well (they probably believed that the spirits lived there). Many towns had festivities and fairs during that period. Lots of people went to the towns to visit their friends and relatives. Those who went to the forest had to avoid female moose because these animals were having their horny periods during Barley Mary Day and were thus aggressive.
If the weather during the day of Mary's assumption is dry then the autumn will also be dry and warm. Should the barley be gathered from the fields after the day of Mary, the barley's quality will fade away fast and most of the crops will decay during the winter. If you should sow the new barley later than the day of Mary then the vermin will devour the growing young crops. The best time for sowing the barley is said to be three days prior to the day of Mary's assumption, then the young crops will be resistant to cold weather.
Mary is the heavenly mother and one can't deny, represents Mother Nature...no wonder the festivities had an important place....

In general Christianity did adopt the traditions and holidays from pre-Christian era....I don't deny that the Germans who occupied Estonia for 700 years treated us well, of course not....but they didn't do that because of religion... it's utterly annoying when people say every once in a while "They brought us CHRISTIANITY with iron and fire!"...well...Christianity cannot be brought to anyone with iron and fire....you can occupy, pillage and burn without Christianity as well....and the fact that the vikings who had formed ties with Christian countries or regions and thus became "officially" but not necessarily "spiritually" Christian themselves continued to pillage and burn as they had done during the good old "pagan" days...

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 21:17

Days of St. Catherine, Martin, Bartholomew, Knud, Peter, Matthew, Anthony...the list goes on and on and on....altho many traditions and days of the old national calendar of Estonia are nowadays obsolete, the traditions were once there such as sacrificing a pig's head on the day of St. Anthony, I also remember pig being the particular animal attributed to that saint which means why pig's head was offered to Tõnn....

There should also be at least three festivities of Mary, Mother of God...for instance Ussimaarjapäev on the 08th of September is actually Mary's birthday but the name in Estonian calendar is associated with the belief that the snakes will enter hibernation that day...the day of Mary's death and ascension to Heaven was also a festivity in Estonian calendar under the name of Rukkimaarjapäev....not to mention Heinamaarjapäev and other numerous festivities....I even found a day of St. Eudoxia in Estonian national calendar altho I don't know who that lady was....

Everything I have ever read (or at least everything more or less credible) suggests that everywhere in Europe the saint's days took over elements of traditional religion, and not vice versa, so that the elements of the veneration of old gods/spirits before the time of christianity survive in various saints days.

Also regarding Taara, other Finno-Ugric tribes have venerated a god whose names' variations are Torum and Numi-Torum, Numi-Torem etc. Taara is probably another variation of the same deity's name.
Also, iirc the most sacred grove of Taara was said to be located in Lääne-Virumaa, not exactly an island.

I have never seen any real historian or archaeologist claim that the peoples who lived here before christianity did not have their own religious beliefs. Elements of religious beliefs in Estonia before christian times are discussed in Eesti Aastal 1200 (Estonia 1200 A.D.), also Aleksander Heintalu has attempted to reconstruct the possible spiritual beliefs of old Estonians in Estide ja T?uudide Hingestatud Ilm (The Animated World of Ests (Finnish Tribe, a.k.a Chudes).

Anyway, this is getting way off topic and I've got better things to do so I'm not gonna discuss this any further here.

Also, you didn't cite any credible sources, only something that I presume is your own interpretation.

My history teacher's, that is....and mine : )

come on people, I am well-read!

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 19:44

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 19:32

But you fail anyway....Estonia is the least religious country on EARTH

we are ranked fifth then...still good enough

and i dont see anything positive on being religious - i dont need something called "god" to live my life...i only feel sorry for people with weak will, who do need "him"...

And of course I've heard of the Mayflower and the M.F. compact. I'm talking about the founders of the country however, the ideas that went into the Declaration of Independence, etc. Of course, the ''Creator'' was mentioned, but not as God if I recall. The freedom or religion was set in place to let these people hold onto their views and not to punish those who held different beliefs. If anything, the founding fathers were secularists or something along these lines. A few Lutherans, Protestants, some with no affiliation at all. Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were basically opposed to the ideas of organized religion, but not necessarily the idea of an Intelligent creator (god).

Where are we going anyways? We totally left the realms of the Ideology of black metal. My views have changed since I was 16 though, gotta admit that.

And shit, I haven't even made any Lebowski references in the past few posts of mine.

God damn it, Walter... you fucking asshole... everything's about Vietnam with you!

EDIT: Forgot to mention your last post. I wouldn't mock people or consider them inferior for these beliefs. It's perfectly natural. Of course, back in the day, if you didn't believe in the god Jupiter, you were a dipshit. However, to call these people weak is not a good thing. As long as they don't over step my personal boundaries and keep to themselves, I see no need to fuck with them.

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 20:01

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 19:56

Well maybe i used wrong word...i meant they are "afraid to live own lives" and "seeking for some master to guide them"...otherwise i really dont understand what God should be good for...i have only faith in myself, because there is only me to fight the world...i am my god...thats my philosophy and "religion"...

I wished to write one more thing....

If you ask me who I feel sorry for....answer is...I feel sorry for religious people and "professionally" religious people who think they're suddenly so much better than anyone else just because they're religious, that they're some kind of chosen ones and that all others suck big time....
I also feel sorry for people who say that they're so much better than others because they are not religious and have so super hyper high ego and willpower that it automatically makes them better....I've really seen some people who beat against their chest and say "I'm baptised but I don't give a shite! I'm a strong person and don't need any God...Religion is for losers only!"...as if they're only saying it as an excuse for something....

None of it makes any person better or worse...it all depends on how the person behaves and treats people around him and himself as well....

well said.... wise words from u

Written by dEAthB3D on 27.08.2009 at 18:16

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 20:01

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 19:56

Well maybe i used wrong word...i meant they are "afraid to live own lives" and "seeking for some master to guide them"...otherwise i really dont understand what God should be good for...i have only faith in myself, because there is only me to fight the world...i am my god...thats my philosophy and "religion"...

I wished to write one more thing....

If you ask me who I feel sorry for....answer is...I feel sorry for religious people and "professionally" religious people who think they're suddenly so much better than anyone else just because they're religious, that they're some kind of chosen ones and that all others suck big time....
I also feel sorry for people who say that they're so much better than others because they are not religious and have so super hyper high ego and willpower that it automatically makes them better....I've really seen some people who beat against their chest and say "I'm baptised but I don't give a shite! I'm a strong person and don't need any God...Religion is for losers only!"...as if they're only saying it as an excuse for something....

None of it makes any person better or worse...it all depends on how the person behaves and treats people around him and himself as well....

well said.... wise words from u

Terima kasih....thanks

Okay, the secret of happiness is to be "Satisfied" with your own life, so whether you are religious or atheist when you have "Constant Ideas" which are strong and can be defended by you then you'll be happy so you don't have to be sorry for anyone, cuz they might be sorry for you as well.

Written by Ernis on 27.08.2009 at 19:41

Written by dEAthB3D on 27.08.2009 at 18:16

Written by Ernis on 26.08.2009 at 20:01

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 19:56

Well maybe i used wrong word...i meant they are "afraid to live own lives" and "seeking for some master to guide them"...otherwise i really dont understand what God should be good for...i have only faith in myself, because there is only me to fight the world...i am my god...thats my philosophy and "religion"...

I wished to write one more thing....

If you ask me who I feel sorry for....answer is...I feel sorry for religious people and "professionally" religious people who think they're suddenly so much better than anyone else just because they're religious, that they're some kind of chosen ones and that all others suck big time....
I also feel sorry for people who say that they're so much better than others because they are not religious and have so super hyper high ego and willpower that it automatically makes them better....I've really seen some people who beat against their chest and say "I'm baptised but I don't give a shite! I'm a strong person and don't need any God...Religion is for losers only!"...as if they're only saying it as an excuse for something....

None of it makes any person better or worse...it all depends on how the person behaves and treats people around him and himself as well....

well said.... wise words from u

Terima kasih....thanks

hey2 u speak indonesia?? haha that's cool...

Written by Ellrohir on 26.08.2009 at 22:22

Well both "most important feasts" in christian calendar - Christmas and Easter are originally pagan...another day with pagan roots is 30th of April - "the night of witches"...

dunno how in Estonia, but i can remember only St. Valentine day from our country and this is commercial shit, no christian tradition...then, well we have bank holidays as the Anniversary of burning Mr. Jan Hus and the Arrival of Cyril and Method, but those are more likely real historical dates important for culture and politics, though based somehow on Christianity...i know in Slovakia they have church fests like "The day when St. Mary entered heaven" (dunno how to translate it in english properly ) which are bank holidays, but nothing like this is in Czech...

It's not just the holidays...for instance: days of the week: Thrusday (Thor's day), Friday (Freya's day) , Saturday (Saturn's day)

Well by us those days have nothing in common with gods - it is "Čtvrtek" (where i guess it is from "čtyři" - number four in our language - while Thursday is 4th day in week), "Pátek" (similar, but from "pět" - five) and "Sobota" (yes, there it should be originally from "sabbath", but you'd need to ask my ancestors, where it really came from)...the rest of days in our week - "Středa" (Wednesday) is definitely from "střed" - middle, as the middle of week and "Neděle" (Sunday) from "ne dělat" - not doing...but i have absolutely no idea where "Pondělí" (Monday) and "Úterý" (Tuesday) came from...but i would swear it are no gods or pagan rites

Written by Ellrohir on 30.08.2009 at 23:56

Well by us those days have nothing in common with gods - it is "Čtvrtek" (where i guess it is from "čtyři" - number four in our language - while Thursday is 4th day in week), "Pátek" (similar, but from "pět" - five) and "Sobota" (yes, there it should be originally from "sabbath", but you'd need to ask my ancestors, where it really came from)...the rest of days in our week - "Středa" (Wednesday) is definitely from "střed" - middle, as the middle of week and "Neděle" (Sunday) from "ne dělat" - not doing...but i have absolutely no idea where "Pondělí" (Monday) and "Úterý" (Tuesday) came from...but i would swear it are no gods or pagan rites

Ponedelnik is the word for Monday in Russian....I see it as po-NEDELnik...Nedelja(nedeilea) means week (in Estonian it's nädal)...and yes, it means indeed "not doing anything" which is a direct translation from Greek "apraktos" (I may misspell it) which should mean "not doing"....well...mayb the Greeks indeed didn't do anything during the whole week.... Utery reminds me of Vtornik....vtoroi is "the second" in Russian and that's logical....Tuesday is the second day of the week....I think I solved the mistery now....
In Estonia and Russia days are named according to numbers mostly such as "ponedelnik-along/after week/sunday, vtornik-second, sreda-middle, tseitverg-fourth, pjatnitsa-five, subbota-sabbath, voskresenie-awakening/resurrection"/"esmaspäev-first, teisipäev-second, kolmapäev-third, neljapäev-fourth, reede-probably derivation of FREDag, laupäev-I don't know, pühapäev-holy day"

Written by Smurfophagist on 30.08.2009 at 23:31

It's not just the holidays...for instance: days of the week: Thrusday (Thor's day), Friday (Freya's day) , Saturday (Saturn's day)

Monday is always the day of the Moon (MONday/De LUAIN/LUNES), Tuesday is the day of a war deity (TYRday/De MAIRT/Mardi), Wednesday is the day of Odin in Germanic tradition and of Mercury in Roman thus (WODANsday/Miercoles), Thursday is the day of thunder deity (THORsday, Jupiter day/Jeudi), Friday is a day of a female deity (Frigg/Freyaday, Venus/Aphroditeday/Venerdi), Saturday is the day of Saturn, seems to have no Scandinavian counterpart, Sunday is the day of SUN or God....Domhnach/Domingo)....

It's a tradition if to think most logically....Finland uses the Scandinavian day names, for instance altho not being a Germanic country....

Written by Ellrohir on 30.08.2009 at 23:56

Well by us those days have nothing in common with gods - it is "Čtvrtek" (where i guess it is from "čtyři" - number four in our language - while Thursday is 4th day in week), "Pátek" (similar, but from "pět" - five) and "Sobota" (yes, there it should be originally from "sabbath", but you'd need to ask my ancestors, where it really came from)...the rest of days in our week - "Středa" (Wednesday) is definitely from "střed" - middle, as the middle of week and "Neděle" (Sunday) from "ne dělat" - not doing...but i have absolutely no idea where "Pondělí" (Monday) and "Úterý" (Tuesday) came from...but i would swear it are no gods or pagan rites

Well that's because were Slavs...we also have ponedjeljak, utorak, srijeda, četvrtak, petak, subota, nedjelja. It's common for all Slavic countries.

What about them, hahaha

Written by Guest on 23.09.2007 at 01:28

I dont think Norway would be harmed in any way if the national christianity was removed, since it wouldnt make a difference at all (except the holidays) people wouldnt miss it, since there's no focus on it in the everyday life.

And even for the holidays it's not sure, France is a non-religious state but we still have Christian holidays (like Easter)

Written by Darkside Momo on 27.01.2010 at 03:20

... France is a non-religious state but we still have Christian holidays (like Easter)

and I adore France cause of that.

Old Europe ewery where has Christian holydays its europian legacy and tradition

Written by Bad English on 27.01.2010 at 13:36

Old Europe ewery where has Christian holydays its europian legacy and tradition

It's now "European" tradition because of those bloody christians and, even then, the vast majority of the holidays are pagan in disguise - at least there's that.

Not that I can imagine too much new will be contributed to this thread in a constructive manner, it's cool to see it revived - I've been getting fairly sick of the thrash, metallica vs. megadeth and not so extreme band threads that have been polluting this forum lately.

Any one have any thing new to add to the original subject, or things relative? Surely some new(er) members can put into their thoughts, ideas, personal ideologies and such... I still retain my initial thoughts; church arson is good.

Written by Bitter Dawn on 28.01.2010 at 10:09

... I still retain my initial thoughts; church arson is good.

No, it's not. Mosque-arson is better.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 28.01.2010 at 10:31

Written by Bitter Dawn on 28.01.2010 at 10:09

... I still retain my initial thoughts; church arson is good.

No, it's not. Mosque-arson is better.

Now that would be a feat to see, though I'm not sure how probable it is lol. Burn all the houses of worship of god, be it Jewish, Muslim, Christian etc.!

Written by Bitter Dawn on 28.01.2010 at 16:59

Now that would be a feat to see, though I'm not sure how probable it is lol. Burn all the houses of worship of god, be it Jewish, Muslim, Christian etc.!

That indeed is a feat.
Seriousely, i'm against church arson. When it comes to mosques, however, it's another story. Biased? maybe. But those asshole Muslims are offended by the simplest things, a movie, a book, a cartoon, etc and capable of ripping you apart with their bare hands. A burning mosque may teach them a good lesson. I don't have the guts to do it myself though!

Im in a country which is called the country of thousands Mosques, everywhere is mosque and they sing! azan 5 time a day! (at least in Itan they sing!! azan 3 times a day) ok, burn those who are not needed at least shit!

@AiwiAstwihad, your avatar is annoying! it reminds me that bitch every time when I saw it.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 28.01.2010 at 17:53

Written by Bitter Dawn on 28.01.2010 at 16:59

Now that would be a feat to see, though I'm not sure how probable it is lol. Burn all the houses of worship of god, be it Jewish, Muslim, Christian etc.!

That indeed is a feat.
Seriousely, i'm against church arson. When it comes to mosques, however, it's another story. Biased? maybe. But those asshole Muslims are offended by the simplest things, a movie, a book, a cartoon, etc and capable of ripping you apart with their bare hands. A burning mosque may teach them a good lesson. I don't have the guts to do it myself though!

The person you quote has an attitude that is rather offensive I'd say...

I personally would never defile any religion's holy place... Not just that if a holy place is built nicely and looks very beautiful and has artistic value but that for some people it means something good and nice... I know that ahem..enei and company are responsible of many bad things but there are people who are good and honest and completely nice... you could not hurt these people by "avenging" the evil ones because those who are evil, they will not care much... they just find your bout of justified anger as an excuse to act even worse to show you "offended" them... it's entirely possible they don't care at all... they just need excuses to "curse" something...

Someone set a very beautiful small church in Tallinn on fire... only one wall was damaged, thank God, the place was saved and the priceless paintings and art treasures remained intact... whoever did such a thing is so disgusting for me... as is it disgusting when I see people posting "church burning is awesome!" I think all these ruined and sick and broken people completely deserve each other... I just wish them to leave NORMAL people alone... you see, they don't...

Here's an example, it's a bit offtopic but eff it... During the Spanish Civil War the far-right side had a sick ideology... the left ideology which wished freedom of it was, in its essence, better...however... both sides were sick and deserved each other... the far-right caught all people whom they thought were "unfaithful", tortured and killed them... and the far-left ones went on, tortured and killed those whom they thought were "on the side of far-right"... and you know, since the ideology of "left" was atheist, they saw church also as part of "evil"... they raped nuns, castrated priests and stuffed their cut-off body members into their mouths... they did horrible things to church...

Whenever people do awful things, I feel like they're doing it to me personally... I feel sick and disgusted and I feel I cannot do anything against them...

All I know is that no act of violence or terror can be allowed... You cannot go and burn a mosque just because "THEY are horrible and deserve it!" if you go and do that, then you deserve them too... it's snowball... one thing causes the other...

If everyone closed/blew up/burnt a church, I'd feel like someone very close and dear to me has died...no...killed, maimed, spat and shat on by someone and that under my own eyes... it deserves a lot of strength not to go and effin make that person suffer the same if not more... because if I go and get my sick pleasure from it, then I will be as awful as that person who did that to me...

Oh... in my school, there are girls too floating around in veils... one Estonian muslim woman (who really loves her faith, who really adores it, who is proud of it and who also "surprisingly" continues to be a tolerant and loveable person) appeared in a newspaper article addressed to people "An Estonian muslim lady is waiting for your questions and she can tell you a lot about the culture and message and stuff"...

You can read this on the internet and you can post your question to the article as a comment...

I am sad... so far, lot of the questions to this beautiful and kind woman have been disgusting... such as "Your husband will get 72 virgins in heaven. What will you get? Lesbian pleasure?"

But once again... if people are disgusting towards each other, then they deserve each other...

While from an idealogical standpoint church burnings appeal to me I don't think they're an efficient method to achieve anything. I'd imagine all it would do is strengthen the community and put them in some kind of witch trial frenzy.

And like Viggo said some churches are just beautiful pieces of art that can be appreciated by anyone, religious or not. There is a swami temple across a field from an apartment I used to live in. The entire temple was trimmed with real gold and when the sun would rise it would glimmer off the edges of the building right into my living room.



That's the exact temple. There's no god about it to me, it just looks really nice. I'd be pissed if someone burnt it down.