Written by Bitter Dawn on 10.06.2007 at 01:29

Written by Doc G. on 10.06.2007 at 01:10

@Scarrowed Muse
Be respectful with our opinions?! Im not christian or anything but people tend to take it to heart when a symbol of there faith is burned to the ground and then someone wants to make a memorial out of it in the name of the antagonist.

And another thing:

Quote:
helped define the common ideology within the genre

Last time I checked there was anti-christian lyrical content long before any church burnings happened. Heres my theory, and all you 'tr00' black metallers can deny it all you want, you wanna know what the church burnings were for? F*CKING MARKETTING! Do you really think the black metal album sales would be even half of what they are now if it wasnt for the church burnings? So yes it did help black metal, it helped black metal artists get money. I wouldnt be seeing little 14 year olds wearing Burzum tshirts if it wasnt for the church burnings.
Believe it or not Black Metal is incredibly marketted and fueled by attention grabbing tomfuckery like that.

So to sum it up: Church burnings=more money for BM, nothing to do with the actual music.

In regards to your first response. Yes well that is a given but what I was talking about was that each person should be able to input their opinion into this thread and that people do not need to berate one another in an uncivilized manner, because obviously the church burnings were disrespectful, but it does not mean they could not be justified.

Sadly you're right about the publicity BM has gained through it's extreme actions, but it does not mean there are not people who are true in their beliefs, Mayhem was always about portraying the extreme to get noticed, that was Euronymous' whole intention.

Just because a band has anti-Christian lyrical content does mean anything, Slayer and Venom are just bands who choose a more abrasive form of content, they don't believe in shit. Tom Araya himself even said that the album name "God Hates Us All" was just a cool name, and he says God does not hate. Then again, we are talking about a band that ripped off Nazi symbols that is front by a man whom was born in Chile and covered with native tattoo's. Araya commented about the misconception of the band labeled as Satan worshipers, "Yeah, yeah I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions towards the band, but next to that just the fact that we're normal." If guitarist King writes a good song, Araya puts his beliefs aside, "I'm not one that's going to go, "This sucks because it's contrary to my beliefs." To me it's more like "this is really good stuff. You're going to piss people off with this."

In an interview, Araya believes that "...Christ came and taught us about love, about doing unto others. That was his preach: Accept each other for who we are. Live peacefully, and love one another." When asked if he believed in God, replied "I believe in a supreme being, yeah. But He's an all-loving God." Araya explained that he has a "really strong belief system," and Slayer's words and images will "never interfere with what I believe and how I feel."

They're almost as bad as the allegid "14 year old kids wearing Burzum t-shirts" because they do not even belief in what they present, and they are willing to portray themselves in a certain light that actually goes against their own personal belief system.

Well there are other bands other than Slayer & Venom who have satanic beliefs & lyrical content of the same that never burned down a church and dont necassarily support it. At least Slayer admit that they are not satan worshippers, they dont pretend to be something there not, its just lyrics that fit well with there music. Just as Blind Guardian sings about battling & folklore doesnt mean they believe in that fantasy crap.

Satanism isn't really relavent in this discussion, but if Satanist did try to berid society of Christianity then by proximity they would also put Satanism into exile since you can not have one without the other. All the same, burning a church in the name of Satan is unproductive and pointless, it does not really hold any value aside from vandalism, as there is no real objective aside from trying to offend the church.

The part about how Viking warlords used Christianity as a bargining tool is quite intrigueing, and I will admit that I didn't know that. But in essance it is still Christianity that plagued the land, because it became a type of currency since it had a stranglehold over other nations, so it was inevitable that it would spready to other areas one way or another, thus it inadvertently took over.

Just a note in here, I put this in the extreme metal forum because it is very relavent to black metal music itself.

The church burnings were not very well thought out and seemed to be more impulsive than anything, which has been admited by some of the particpants - obviously not with Varg since he is trying to uphold his image, but Bard "Faust" Eithun for example whom particpated in at least one burning (a day or two after his murder crime) said that it was more of an impulsive act.
I think it is quite sad that the murders and burnings induced a lot of popularity for BM, I understand why but there are a lot of fakes and people that just bullshit, like I said, I am starting to think that even Mayhem are not really interested in any of the BM ideals, they seem to just want to create music and put forth an image, but I still enjoy their music a lot.

Written by Bitter Dawn on 11.06.2007 at 01:10

I am starting to think that even Mayhem are not really interested in any of the BM ideals, they seem to just want to create music and put forth an image, but I still enjoy their music a lot.

Wow, I never realised just making music and not burning down a church was going against black metal ideals. This church burning being a symbol for black metal is a really juvenile way of thinking, it was a stupid act from a psychotic man which was then used to pimp out black metal, a big fucking marketting gimmick. So I actually respect Mayhem more for just wanting to make music, they no longer have to resort to using criminal acts to promote there music. I repeat again, church burnings only had to do with Varg, please tell me how it actually influenced the music itself in any way?

Written by Doc G. on 11.06.2007 at 03:05

Wow, I never realised just making music and not burning down a church was going against black metal ideals. This church burning being a symbol for black metal is a really juvenile way of thinking, it was a stupid act from a psychotic man which was then used to pimp out black metal, a big fucking marketting gimmick. So I actually respect Mayhem more for just wanting to make music, they no longer have to resort to using criminal acts to promote there music. I repeat again, church burnings only had to do with Varg, please tell me how it actually influenced the music itself in any way?

Alright, I should have been more clear, I made myself sound pretty dumb.

In the begining Mayhem was all about being truly extreme and innovating, but now it seems like they just want to make money (which was the impression I got from a quote by Hellhammer) "Imhotep: If "Grand Declaration of War" was written [from] hearts then explain to me, why did you return with "Chimera" to the style of your first album?

Hellhammer: "Because we wanted to sell more!"

Not to mention that one of the reasons why Maniac left was due to astute stage fright.

True that it is idiotic and ignorant to proclaim that a band is less BM if they do not burn churches or necassarily condone it, but the impression I now get from Mayhem and most other band's, is that they lack the conviction and any meaning to their music or the ideals of BM and it's almost like a much darker spin-off of shock rock in a sense.
I'll add more later as I've got to run to pick-up my wife...

@Scarrowed Muse
It seems with that logic what your saying is any band that burns down a church automatically have meaning to there music, as a political or religious statement I can understand, but as far as representing anything to the music it means nothing. Just because Mayhem may be "sell-outs" I find has very little to do with any church burnings.

Written by Clintagräm on 10.06.2007 at 20:34

I guess you guys didn't catch my sarcasm. It was more or less a joke. I'll be sure to make that more clear next time.

I did actually catch it but I had some doubts so I wanted to make sure whether you were really joking or not.....

Written by Ernis on 11.06.2007 at 14:37

Written by Clintagräm on 10.06.2007 at 20:34

I guess you guys didn't catch my sarcasm. It was more or less a joke. I'll be sure to make that more clear next time.

I did actually catch it but I had some doubts so I wanted to make sure whether you were really joking or not.....

Yes I understand. I was trying to make a joke seeing as Gaahl is so goofy only "kvlt kiddies" would follow. He's so evil and Metal, how could you not?

Written by Clintagräm on 11.06.2007 at 21:08

Written by Ernis on 11.06.2007 at 14:37

Written by Clintagräm on 10.06.2007 at 20:34

I guess you guys didn't catch my sarcasm. It was more or less a joke. I'll be sure to make that more clear next time.

I did actually catch it but I had some doubts so I wanted to make sure whether you were really joking or not.....

Yes I understand. I was trying to make a joke seeing as Gaahl is so goofy only "kvlt kiddies" would follow. He's so evil and Metal, how could you not?

I'm evil and metal, but no one follows me. Actually, subtract the evil and add fat, nerdy, and male virgin... oh, now I know the reasons why people don't follow me. I made myself feel bad.

Written by Guest on 11.06.2007 at 21:34

Written by Clintagräm on 11.06.2007 at 21:08

Written by Ernis on 11.06.2007 at 14:37

Written by Clintagräm on 10.06.2007 at 20:34

I guess you guys didn't catch my sarcasm. It was more or less a joke. I'll be sure to make that more clear next time.

I did actually catch it but I had some doubts so I wanted to make sure whether you were really joking or not.....

Yes I understand. I was trying to make a joke seeing as Gaahl is so goofy only "kvlt kiddies" would follow. He's so evil and Metal, how could you not?

I'm evil and metal, but no one follows me. Actually, subtract the evil and add fat, nerdy, and male virgin... oh, now I know the reasons why people don't follow me. I made myself feel bad.

Don't feel too bad, I'm sure Gaahl's not far behind. Spam. Spam. Spam.

Well....something to say more....stupid hate crimes are mindless...and unfortunately some metallers are indeed gullible enough to fall for them....sorry...I've heard more than once sentences like that "Oh, why are there so many churches in this town? Would someone burn them pleeaazzzze!"/"That church? Yeah, I know that....I urinate against its wall frequently*giggle*"
I actually don't know if such text is spoken for joking...or in order to leave a somewhat "sinister"/"wicked"/"sombre"/"naughty" impression.....

Written by Doc G. on 11.06.2007 at 04:35

@Scarrowed Muse
It seems with that logic what your saying is any band that burns down a church automatically have meaning to there music, as a political or religious statement I can understand, but as far as representing anything to the music it means nothing. Just because Mayhem may be "sell-outs" I find has very little to do with any church burnings.

I see where you're coming from, I feel that burning a church shows a level of commitment if the person or band truly beholds that type of ideology, but just because a person decides to burn a church it doesn't automatically make them true or real, as it may just be an action of trying to prove themselves to other in vain for acceptance or approval; it's a very fine line that is hard to gauge at whom is doing it for the right reasons and who is not. I know that sounds like a bullshit answer, but I think a person has to have a certain mind frame and really put faith into their action's, it has to be done with heart and for a true purpose. But like I said, as far as the burning's going I am not sure where I stand, because on one hand the stave churches are very artistic and I am a fan of architecture, but on the other hand I sympathize with the ideals of taking back one's root's and some times an extreme act is necassary.

As for Mayhem or some other BM band's, making music will only show so much but what I think a lot of people in the BM are lacking in general is conviction and heart for these ideals percieved as being extreme. I believe that is my overall point, the subject of conviction, dedication and truth, whatever the outlook of said band or person is. We'll use Gaahl as an example, although he is fairly enigmatic, and I do not agree with his preferance for Satanism, I think that he has conviction and dedication and he is genuine, and this is not just about the fact that he condones the church burnings. He acts upon his beliefs, and he is willing to suffer the repercussions and continue to remain true to himself, and I am not saying that causing bodily harm to others is something others should do (just like what I said about the church burning's), but he has been imprisoned twice for doing what he believe's is the right thing to do. The last time Gaahl went to prison was for something he believed in, which was a man attacked him and Gaahl felt it was necassary to teach this man a lesson, and what he did was justified because we all know that if the man whom attacked Gaahl (or had he attacked any other person within society) was apprehended by the police that the attacker would get off quite easily and would not be deterred to repeat his actions, whereas what Gaahl did this man may think twice before enacting upon malicious intents again.

Written by Ernis on 12.06.2007 at 00:07

Well....something to say more....stupid hate crimes are mindless...and unfortunately some metallers are indeed gullible enough to fall for them....sorry...I've heard more than once sentences like that "Oh, why are there so many churches in this town? Would someone burn them pleeaazzzze!"/"That church? Yeah, I know that....I urinate against its wall frequently*giggle*"
I actually don't know if such text is spoken for joking...or in order to leave a somewhat "sinister"/"wicked"/"sombre"/"naughty" impression.....

I think that for many this antichristianity is like a question of image, people think that they are more "metal" or whatever when they try to give everybody the impression of how much they hate christianity, and though I myself also tend to dislike organized religions, I think it's still a very stupid behaviour, people just want to show off with their attitude, probably most of them don't take the shit they talk seriously, but that makes it even kind of more stupid, I dislike when people (when not joking) talk stuff they don't really mean just to show off their attitude. Anyway about Vikernes; I meant that considering his childhood and upbringing (which has a strong impact on the way the personality develops) I can understand how he was full of negative emotions which led him to extreme acts and I don't condemn it, but the thing I don't like about him is that he never admits the mistakes he's done, sorry when I was bit unclear in my previous post.

Written by Guest on 12.06.2007 at 15:11

Anyway about Vikernes; I meant that considering his childhood and upbringing (which has a strong impact on the way the personality develops) I can understand how he was full of negative emotions which led him to extreme acts and I don't condemn it, but the thing I don't like about him is that he never admits the mistakes he's done, sorry when I was bit unclear in my previous post.

Oh, tell us more about his childhood...I remember I read his life story once but I've forgotten bits of it....
Anyway....you don't know how to explain Varg's psychology....I'll try to put that in words...
Thing is that Varg thinks that everyone else is responsible for all negative things....therefore, he begins to act as a "judge"...by this he makes even worse mistakes himself provoking his "enemies" to hurt him in return which renders him even more fierce....all in all....he misses the point that he isn't an angel....he isn't the best person but he refuses to admit that what he did was wrong....

Written by Bitter Dawn on 12.06.2007 at 10:59

on one hand the stave churches are very artistic and I am a fan of architecture, but on the other hand I sympathize with the ideals of taking back one's root's and some times an extreme act is necassary.

.....Stave churches display lots of pagan features in their architectural arrangements and decorations...also the places....as they were usually erected at/near pagan sites.....it's actually a blend of pagan traditions and Christianity....and stave churches are unique to Norway....they resemble great drinking halls...only more towering and vertical....if to dare use logical thinking in this place, it's rather obvious that none of these churches were planned by Western European architects....instead, Scandinavians built these themselves and according to their beliefs and traditions....for example in Estonia we didn't have any particular style of our own....thus...all our early medieval churches bear the same characteristics as those in France for example because our churches were built by Western European architects....
So....burning a stave church couldn't possibly mean returning to your roots....it's more like burning your roots and denying them...creating some illusionary image of your past that actually was a bit different.....it's caused by anger...if people find a hating object....they'll hate it...for just hating it...and even if there aren't enough reasons to hate it....they'll invent more of those reasons.....

Written by Guest on 12.06.2007 at 15:11

but the thing I don't like about him is that he never admits the mistakes he's done,

That's because he doesn't believe they're mistakes, he believes in what he did, and seems he still stands by it. He still stands by killing Euronymous so I'm sure he's behind his church burnings as well.

Written by Bitter Dawn on 12.06.2007 at 10:59

but on the other hand I sympathize with the ideals of taking back one's root's and some times an extreme act is necassary.

Well, does this opression still exist today that someone needs to burn down a church in order to get back there roots? We're at a point in history where in most civilised countries two different religions can coexist in one society. And someone previously went into the history of it and showed that most of the opression didnt come from the original christians who settled there, and that alot of the churches were actual built by the scandinavian people.

And please show me anything post-Euronymous era that states that Mayhem were trying to make or do anything more than extreme music? Proof would be awesome. I still dont see any connection to burning down a church and making music, still a freaking juvenile way to think and still a stupid thread.

I quote an acquaintance of mine...perhaps he quoted some other person...that I amn't aware of...but thing is..."The only reason why they were popular were that Dead blew his brains out and Euro got ripped with sharp objects like a cow..."

Read the last half of my last post....I think I explained quite well there about "the ideals of taking back one's root's via church burnings(why not?)"

And I repeat....if speaking of Norway then their churches are one of the places where these roots are hidden....destroying it would be destroying your own past...I'm afraid Varg had a bit wrong impression of the thing and managed to make a drama of this for himself....

Okay, I will openly admit that I have also wondered about burning the stave churches since they had Norse engravings on them, which confused me slightly as to why seemingly Christian churches would have pagan symbols on them, aside from trying to incorperate the strongest remanents of Scandinavia's native spirituality so that the Christians could slowly convert the people - just as they did with other Germanic people, ie: Saint Nick and Krampus, the Yule tree and so on.

The best I can guess for Varg is that it may had been an insult to Norway, that Christians felt like they could just come and mesh their faith into the Norwegians belief system, which is two thing's that really do not belong together. I however, mostly think that Vargs initial intentions were indeed just a juvenile act for the most part. However, I still understand and see the purpose in taking an extreme action for the benefit of a greater cause, so long as it is justifiable.

As for religions co-existing, well that is only half true, as the only religions that really co-exist are one's that do not directly rival one another, and despite that each religion (ie: Chrisianity, Hinduism, etc) does not directly agree with each others ideals or faith such as each one's story for creation of the world, they do not directly challenge or oppose one another in the way that Satanism would to Christianity.

You didnt exactly answer my question: is religious oppression still rampant there? enough to force one to burn down a church righteously?

I would be cartoonishly surprised if it was. From what I've read, the Church in Norway is very liberal.

Exactly....Varg had built for himself a world...well...like I have...a dream world...and he had strong beliefs....however, a part of this belief was hatred and drama-making....indeed very typical if speaking of adolescents...and Varg unfortunately continued this kind of thinking...it includes angst and hate and he refuses to quit it....

Dr.Rock: In all honesty I couldn't say whether or not Norway is a liberally religious country, as I've never been there to experiance the government or it's people. But apperantly Norway is somewhat of a reserved nation, Monty Python's "The Life Of Brian" was banned there, as is a lot of horror film's, and supposively in some area's it is frowned upon to even have curtains in the window's, as well as other rather unexpected social expectations.

But the subject of Norway being a religiously oppressive nation today this day was never mentioned earlier, at least not by me as part of a supporting point. The point of "debate" was simply the principle of Christianity - despite how it came into power, be it by force or a tool used by warlords - to have a thrall over the nation, and not just Norway itself but all of Scandinavia and the descents of the Germanic people, for the fact that those people's origins were washed away, and in some cases literally burnt. It stem's out further than some kid burning a church for pleasure, as that act could be percieved as a coming sign or hint of the revitalization of an old spirituality, that once forgotten consciousness.

Whether Norway is a religiously oppresive nation or not does support the point, it determines whether church burnings were ever necassary. There are plenty of non violent means to recovering old spirituality and getting back with ones roots.

Well in Norway, if I remember well, they banned Monty Python's: Life of Brian because it was blasfemous (I think that the movie was advertised in Sweden saying something like: A film so funny that I got banned in Norway). But this was back in the 80s

Quote:

Quote:

Oh, tell us more about his childhood...I remember I read his life story once but I've forgotten bits of it....
Anyway....you don't know how to explain Varg's psychology....I'll try to put that in words...
Thing is that Varg thinks that everyone else is responsible for all negative things....therefore, he begins to act as a "judge"...by this he makes even worse mistakes himself provoking his "enemies" to hurt him in return which renders him even more fierce....all in all....he misses the point that he isn't an angel....he isn't the best person but he refuses to admit that what he did was wrong....

I didn't exactly get it whether the "tell us more" part was irony or not, but if it was not then I am sorry because I don't remember the details anymore as I haven't read anything on the subject in about 2 years though I remember that Vikernes came from a strongly disfunctional family, and his father was cruel against his mother, and Vikernes hated him (later his parents divorced and his mother got married again), I don't know/ remember the details, but I think this kind of environment has probably left some deep scars.
As for his psychology, yes I agree that I couldn't have explained it myself, also I agree that what you said about him is probably true and I agree with you that Vikernes certainly isn't "an angel", I was just trying to say that we shouldn't judge him before trying to understand his reasons for the church burnings. I personally think these were just immature acts of someone who was and still seems to be somewhat lost in his own world, but who doesn't apear to be a "bad" or "evil" person really, just kind of lost , and I even feel kind of sorry for him.

Written by Guest on 18.06.2007 at 03:11

I didn't exactly get it whether the "tell us more" part was irony or not, but if it was not then I am sorry because I don't remember the details anymore as I haven't read anything on the subject in about 2 years though I remember that Vikernes came from a strongly disfunctional family, and his father was cruel against his mother, and Vikernes hated him (later his parents divorced and his mother got married again), I don't know/ remember the details, but I think this kind of environment has probably left some deep scars.
As for his psychology, yes I agree that I couldn't have explained it myself, also I agree that what you said about him is probably true and I agree with you that Vikernes certainly isn't "an angel", I was just trying to say that we shouldn't judge him before trying to understand his reasons for the church burnings. I personally think these were just immature acts of someone who was and still seems to be somewhat lost in his own world, but who doesn't apear to be a "bad" or "evil" person really, just kind of lost , and I even feel kind of sorry for him.

This wasn't irony....I did wish to hear more.....
So much as I managed to read about Varg...his background and his own story about himself...the impression that he left me was actually good....his ideas and dreams were good and positive in its essence...actually I may even say that we share interests in some levels....and well...Varg's misfortune lay in the fact that he was living in the fairy dreams of his and he felt that the real world is cruel....somehow he started to accuse Christianity...he started thinking that because of Christianity the society of today isn't the fairy/fantasy society which it should be....a wrong thing to do....his thinking went wrong...and he ended up in a dead end for himself and now it's awfully difficult for him to find his way back....but deeply....I do understand him...He just went too far because there was no person there to help him either....as I read....Varg actually didn't get along with the rest of the metal figures of that time....he distanced himself from all of them from the very beginning....

Written by Guest on 18.06.2007 at 03:11

I I was just trying to say that we shouldn't judge him before trying to understand his reasons for the church burnings. I personally think these were just immature acts of someone who was and still seems to be somewhat lost in his own world, but who doesn't apear to be a "bad" or "evil" person really, just kind of lost , and I even feel kind of sorry for him.

Although I condone murder to those who truly deserve it, what about the fact that Varg murdered Euronymous?

Written by Bitter Dawn on 18.06.2007 at 03:42

Written by Guest on 18.06.2007 at 03:11

I I was just trying to say that we shouldn't judge him before trying to understand his reasons for the church burnings. I personally think these were just immature acts of someone who was and still seems to be somewhat lost in his own world, but who doesn't apear to be a "bad" or "evil" person really, just kind of lost , and I even feel kind of sorry for him.

Although I condone murder to those who truly deserve it, what about the fact that Varg murdered Euronymous?

I agree, despite rmours and such, the most reasonable explanation for him murdering Euronymous had to do with business and debts (from what Ive read), and someone who kills someone over business is pretty bad, despite dark backrounds, it is a shame he had a rough childhood, but he isnt the only one who has and there are plenty of children with bad backrounds who grow up to live an ok adult life, so I hardly think thats an excuse for stabbing someone something like 19 times or something?

Written by Doc G. on 18.06.2007 at 08:12

Written by Bitter Dawn on 18.06.2007 at 03:42

Written by Guest on 18.06.2007 at 03:11

I I was just trying to say that we shouldn't judge him before trying to understand his reasons for the church burnings. I personally think these were just immature acts of someone who was and still seems to be somewhat lost in his own world, but who doesn't apear to be a "bad" or "evil" person really, just kind of lost , and I even feel kind of sorry for him.

Although I condone murder to those who truly deserve it, what about the fact that Varg murdered Euronymous?

I agree, despite rmours and such, the most reasonable explanation for him murdering Euronymous had to do with business and debts (from what Ive read), and someone who kills someone over business is pretty bad, despite dark backrounds, it is a shame he had a rough childhood, but he isnt the only one who has and there are plenty of children with bad backrounds who grow up to live an ok adult life, so I hardly think thats an excuse for stabbing someone something like 19 times or something?

Well again I still think the whole murder incident is misunderstood to an extent. According to Varg, when him and Euronymous met that night, Euronymous ended up going for a knife FIRST. There was apparently already tension between them beforehand. Euronymous seemed to have planned to torture and/or kill Varg on video tape. And while that many stabs isn't exactly self defense, Euronymous had it coming if he was willing to go for a knife and try to attack Varg first. The way I see it, Varg just happened to get to Euronymous first, before the opposite happened. This is all if Varg is telling the truth about everything though.

Well...to make it short....the problem was that both Varg and Euronymus were violent and sick persons in their own way...they were filled with negative emotions and if such two persons turn against each other, then the results are unfortunately rather predictable....

Written by Doc G. on 18.06.2007 at 08:12

I agree, despite rmours and such, the most reasonable explanation for him murdering Euronymous had to do with business and debts (from what Ive read), and someone who kills someone over business is pretty bad, despite dark backrounds, it is a shame he had a rough childhood, but he isnt the only one who has and there are plenty of children with bad backrounds who grow up to live an ok adult life, so I hardly think thats an excuse for stabbing someone something like 19 times or something?

Oh dear Jebus did you just open a can of worms... the varg fanboi brigade is bound to come crawling out of the woodwork now...