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Alternative fuels



Posts: 22   Visited by: 3 users
21.06.2007 - 07:06
Arian Totalis
The Philosopher
This is an issue that plagues my nation, and I'm sure many other nations around the world. The issue of alternate fuel sources as opposed to the traditional fossil Fuels in our vehicles. There are a number of reasons why this is such a controversial subject. Amongst these reasons are the fact that it is believed that greenhouse gasses are destroying our athmosphere and trapping in heat, causing global warming and very possibly a global disaster in the long run. It is also a limited recourse, one which may not be replinished, and what will society do once this recourse runs dry? On the other hand the fossil fuel industry is an industry that supplies many jobs and has a very depply embedded stranglehold on the world econemy, and so an imediate change from fossil fuels to Alternative fuels may cause an economic colapse or depression for a time.

So, here is my question: What are the thoughts of my fellow metalstormers on this? Are you with or against the use of alternative fuels, and why?

Personally, I believe we should convert to alternative fuels for the reason that in the end, our planet and our environment are more important than our imediate economies. We have to think of the world we are building for our decendants, our children, and all those who walk after us. If mass amounts of people are layed off and we suffer depressions in our econemy for a time, so mote it be, but I shall not stand by and allow the earth to wither like a picked reed in the sun whilst businessmen pocket kickbacks and sew their pockets with cash.

Any thoughts?
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"For the Coward there is no Life
For the hero there is No Death"
-Kakita Toshimoko

"The Philosopher, you know so much about nothing at all." _Chuck Schuldiner.
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21.06.2007 - 11:14
Xtreme Jax
Psycroptipath
And the reason why you havent made this in the serious discussion thread is why?
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Hellcunt Smurf
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21.06.2007 - 17:40
Opium
Account deleted
Written by Xtreme Jax on 21.06.2007 at 11:14

And the reason why you havent made this in the serious discussion thread is why?

I've always thought that the mods shifted the threads they deem worthy of being in the serious discussion forum section, unless things have changed around here.

As for alternative fuels, it's definitely a key part in reducing emissions and thus decreasing the rate at which the temperature rises or potentially stop it occurring in vehicles and all other machines/systems altogether. That being said, I'm all for it as long as the incurred costs aren't ridiculously high, as a result of converting and continuing the change to another fuel which is less damaging to the environment, be it water, hydrogen or another fuel.

I also find it interesting that some older cars used to be able to function on chicken feces, seems odd at the same time, but it most definitely happened
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21.06.2007 - 18:57
Lupas
Maximus
Yeah the mods can transfer a thread to serious section.

There are many other fuels rather than fossil feuls. There are bio feul, hydrogen, water , elecrtic . The most important is why car manufactures do not want to produce into large production scale these models. Cause they are manipulated by fossil fuels i havd once read that the inventer of hydrogen car was killed cause fossil fuel lords fear that this could ends thier money . I hope that many people are aware of this and maybe one day there would be a revolution in car industry to produce more cars fossil free.

About the production of electrical energy there is only one way ( if there is plenty of water ) is by build up a hydoelectric power satation . This could be built in those countries that have rivers. But as time goes by ,the earth is heating thus can reduce drasticaly the supply of water. There is another way to produce this type of energy , that is by atomic power station . But they leave behind quite amount of toxic remains.

Other type of clean electrical energy is by photoelectric cells that by the heat of the sun can produce electrical energy. the problem is that these cells are quite expensive so not many people do effort to buy them Also to produce a large amount of energy , one have to cover a large area. Same problem is the wind turbine .

I can conclude that if the world would seriously wants to get rid of this problem , one must leave behind the money coast and produce these things so that everyone could effort this .
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"For what point has this life if you can't realise your dreams?" -- The Divine Comedy
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21.06.2007 - 20:36
Bararey
Winter is Coming
Oh God where do I start!

1) Bio-fuels have the biggest sector % wise in actual M&A's an IPO, so it is doing very well. There are many start-ups that are working/heading in this direction, but keep in mind that those fuels are subsidies today, so if the government decided to eliminate those subsidies their prices will go way UP, and well the end consumer may not want to pay more than what s/he pays for fossil fuel!

2) Hydrogen today is not really viable, there are two main problems that it is not commercially available today on a large scale, fist is it very difficult to store, second it is also difficult to transport.

3) water is more of a seed technology, I don't see companies that are mature in this sector mainly because the technology is either not there or it is economically cost ineffective

4) Electric, as in hybrids, well it is more mature, then hydraulic hybrids, but keep in mind that getting rid of the batteries is a problem (toxic) and its components are not biodegradable.

And cars manufacturers have their R&D departments and they're working on this issue, but they CANNOT produce into a mass scale a car that has not been tested to be working properly! Keep in mind the ICE has been in used for over 100 years!

And give me a break on fossil fuels companies killed an inventor of a hydrogen car! MOST of the major fossil fuel companies have their CleanTech departments and have allocated Billion of Dollars in the research area of alternative fuels!

The three major alternative areas that are more mature than the rest are solar, wind and bio-fuels. and fuel cells are also growing. There is a lot of money invested in those areas, in 2006 there was a $55 Billion dollar invested compared to $40 Billion in 2005 that is a 137.5% increase!

If you really care about the environment, why don't you purchase carbon credit?!
The money you spend to buy a pass goes into funding renewable energy projects like wind farms, a company that i remember off the top of my head is TerraPass (http://www.terrapass.com/)

And I don't believe in carbon credits, so no I did not buy the pass, but many peopple do!
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"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."
Ser Jorah Mormont
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21.06.2007 - 21:24
Arian Totalis
The Philosopher
Written by Xtreme Jax on 21.06.2007 at 11:14

And the reason why you havent made this in the serious discussion thread is why?

Yeah dude, everyone is right, I don't have that power, the mods do.
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"For the Coward there is no Life
For the hero there is No Death"
-Kakita Toshimoko

"The Philosopher, you know so much about nothing at all." _Chuck Schuldiner.
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22.06.2007 - 04:32
Fhuesc

Ah! interesting thread, first i think that they are necesary, not only cuz they help the environment, cuz been more antropocentric, mandkind needs oil to make a lot of products, like clothes, medicin, plastics, etc. and its stupid that we are wasting that resource burning it.
But here comes the itchy part of the alternavite fuels, first, most of them arent really an option, cuz the energy balance its negative, with this i mean that produce them expends more energy that the one they produce. Second, the "ingredients" that they use for making certain types of this products are things that have other utilities; an example, for making biodisel, one of the ingredients are Corn, and here in Mexico, Corn its tha base of our alimentation, so if they decide to make biodisel from Corn, the mexicans will be trouble, cuz there will be no more food.
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Hasta la victoria, siempre!
Until victory, always!
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23.06.2007 - 01:57
Uller

First and very important to clarify, the main thing that causes the global warming is that there are very few pirates navigating in the world.

Ok then, now with the matters of fuel, the fossil fuel is not the option these years we need something but efficient in the energy yield and less toxic than the fossil fuel, there is not now a feasible alternative to achieve this goal and yes there's reserarch about this matter but the world owners of petroleum also impede this goal and they justify its ambition to control the market and with less petroleum and more we need it more it will be the cost and bigger the money that we will pay for it.
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23.06.2007 - 03:03
Bararey
Winter is Coming
Written by Uller on 23.06.2007 at 01:57

yes there's reserarch about this matter but the world owners of petroleum also impede this goal


This is utter nonsense! The Oil industry is well aware of the finite resources of oil, and the billions of dollars they have invested in the refineries, pipelines, transportation, storage unites, etc, which will be obsolete if oil is diminished. However the major oil companies are shifting and adapting for if the market changes, i.e. if the hydrogen economy ever materializes in the near future, those facilities could be used. Who will pay 100's millions of dollars to build a new infrastructure (although in the case if hydrogen, a lot of modifications are needed). So NO the oil industry is not impeding the research it is matter of fact helping it, by investing in them! (look it up before posting things like this!! and from a realible source, not a blog with people's who know nothing about the industry writing their opinions!!)
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"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."
Ser Jorah Mormont
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24.06.2007 - 06:20
Fhuesc

@Bararey: Uller isnt a 100% wrong, its true that the main reachers for new fuels are the oil industries, but its also true, that they arent going to release them until the last drop of cheap oil is consume. Thats how the capitalism works, maybe you shouldnt speak about the industry if you dont know how the system works.
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Hasta la victoria, siempre!
Until victory, always!
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24.06.2007 - 09:35
Bararey
Winter is Coming
Written by Fhuesc on 24.06.2007 at 06:20

@Bararey: Uller isnt a 100% wrong, its true that the main reachers for new fuels are the oil industries, but its also true, that they arent going to release them until the last drop of cheap oil is consume. Thats how the capitalism works, maybe you shouldnt speak about the industry if you dont know how the system works.

I am sorry to disappoint you but I work in this industry! I work in the renewable sector (new/alternative fuels) in a major oil company!! So yeah I know what i am talking about!
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"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."
Ser Jorah Mormont
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24.06.2007 - 19:26
Relentless
Account deleted
Is it true that they are looking at corn oil as an alternative?
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25.06.2007 - 02:10
Arian Totalis
The Philosopher
Written by Guest on 24.06.2007 at 19:26

Is it true that they are looking at corn oil as an alternative?

Yes but it's not so much corn oil as much as it is an agent we extract from the corn called "Ethanol"
----
"For the Coward there is no Life
For the hero there is No Death"
-Kakita Toshimoko

"The Philosopher, you know so much about nothing at all." _Chuck Schuldiner.
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25.06.2007 - 03:04
Fhuesc

Written by Bararey on 24.06.2007 at 09:35

Written by Fhuesc on 24.06.2007 at 06:20

@Bararey: Uller isnt a 100% wrong, its true that the main reachers for new fuels are the oil industries, but its also true, that they arent going to release them until the last drop of cheap oil is consume. Thats how the capitalism works, maybe you shouldnt speak about the industry if you dont know how the system works.

I am sorry to disappoint you but I work in this industry! I work in the renewable sector (new/alternative fuels) in a major oil company!! So yeah I know what i am talking about!

Im not saying that you dont know anything, what im saying is that you dont know how the system (capitalism) works.
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Hasta la victoria, siempre!
Until victory, always!
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01.07.2007 - 16:34
Remus

I agree with Bararey. I don't think petroleum companies oppose the search for finding alternate fuels. They would be pretty narrow-minded to do so, i mean how will they make money in 30-40 years time from now?

That being said i think the use of nuclear energy should be focused upon. the only bad side to this is toxic waste.

But now i have a question. The waste produced by nuclear power plants is i'm guessing either a solid or more likely a liquid, right? Why don't we take this and dump it into outer space? You know, dump it on Pluto or something. There's no life there so Pluto won't mind. It probably won't reach our planet since it's so far away. Is there any bad side to this?

Oh, maybe it would cost a lot of money to transport the waste, but hey it's an ideea!
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Procrastinate, NOW!
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04.07.2007 - 05:49
Fhuesc

@Remus: its true that radioactive waste are a problem, but there are multiple ways to handle them. And i dont know if i suck in wrinting (which is very probably) but i never said that oil industries are against new fuels, but they arent going to realese them TIL THE LAST DROP OF CHEAP OIL IS CONSUMENED
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Hasta la victoria, siempre!
Until victory, always!
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04.07.2007 - 05:52
Bararey
Winter is Coming
Written by Fhuesc on 04.07.2007 at 05:49

but they arent going to realese them TIL THE LAST DROP OF CHEAP OIL IS CONSUMENED


that's cost ineffective! :
if we don't get profit by selling it, we ain't drilling it out! end of story! geez!
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"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."
Ser Jorah Mormont
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04.07.2007 - 08:28
Uller

I just have something to sy about and is "NECIA"
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05.07.2007 - 23:56
Bararey
Winter is Coming
Rising world reliance on biofuels over the next decade threatens to drive up world prices for many farm products claims a new OECD report.

The study, co-written by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organisation, said increasing production of biofuels would have a major impact on the agriculture sector between 2007 and 2016.

According to the report, between now and 2016 substantial amounts of maize in the United States, wheat and rapeseed in the European Union and sugar in Brazil would be needed for ethanol and bio-diesel production and contribute to rising commodity prices. The effect will be worst felt in net food importing countries and among the urban poor.

"This pressure can be either direct, through growing demand and changes in consumption patterns as incomes rise, or indirect as alternative uses of food crops, such as inputs for biofuels, have led to higher domestic prices," the study said.

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I can't provide the link to the copied statement above (member's access only).
I have been stating the same concerns for months! I am glad that others share the same opinion!

Some say they will just take the "excess" to produce ethanol/biofuel, but the demand for those fuels are very high, which eventually means the increase in the price of food! and the regions that are going to be affected the most by this are the poorest regions in the world! So the world finds a potential solution to the fuel problem, but creates another problem!
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"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."
Ser Jorah Mormont
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18.07.2007 - 05:42
+{Jonas}+
I R Serious Cat
Well, here in Colombia is being implemented the use of natural gas as fuel instead of regular gasoline, it's cheaper and obviously less harmful for teh enviroment. Although I've heard cars have less power after the converssion. I don't know about that, but I think it's better to sacrifice a few HPs for having a cleaner air.
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"Nobody wants to be the weird kid, you just end up being the weird kid. You don't know how you ended up getting there" - Rob Zombie

http://jonas-bs.deviantart.com My dA, mainly photography, go check it out!
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18.07.2007 - 06:30
Fhuesc

@+{Mister Cat}+: im not sure that the natural gas is less harmful, from what i know, the burning of natural gas, also produces CO and CO2 in large amounts, and the gas also have another green house gas, the CH4 (methane). I think that the reason why cars are changing to natural gas are the costs not the enviroment. But i insist that this is an assumption, i dont know this for sure.
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Hasta la victoria, siempre!
Until victory, always!
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19.07.2007 - 03:12
+{Jonas}+
I R Serious Cat
Written by Fhuesc on 18.07.2007 at 06:30

@+{Mister Cat}+: im not sure that the natural gas is less harmful, from what i know, the burning of natural gas, also produces CO and CO2 in large amounts, and the gas also have another green house gas, the CH4 (methane). I think that the reason why cars are changing to natural gas are the costs not the enviroment. But i insist that this is an assumption, i dont know this for sure.

As far as I know it's safer for the environment, or at least that's what the campaign says. But I'm not sure either.
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"Nobody wants to be the weird kid, you just end up being the weird kid. You don't know how you ended up getting there" - Rob Zombie

http://jonas-bs.deviantart.com My dA, mainly photography, go check it out!
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