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Nightwish - Human. :II: Nature. review
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Reviewer:
5.7

396 users:
6.86
Band: Nightwish
Album: Human. :II: Nature.
Style: Symphonic power metal, Symphonic metal
Release date: April 2020


Disc I
01. Music
02. Noise
03. Shoemaker
04. Harvest
05. Pan
06. How's The Heart?
07. Procession
08. Tribal
09. Endlessness

Disc II
01. All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World - Vista
02. All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World - The Blue
03. All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World - The Green
04. All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World - Moors
05. All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World - Aurorae
06. All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World - Quiet As The Snow
07. All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World - Anthropocene (incl. "Hurrian Hymn To Nikkal")
08. All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World - Ad Astra

With Human. :II: Nature., Nightwish aim to explore life, the universe and everything, but spend too much time staring at the bigger picture to notice the smaller necessities they've overlooked.

Nightwish have had a slightly bumpy couple of decades. Some might argue that signs of a decline were there before original singer Tarja Turunen departed, but it was this event, and her replacement with Anette Olzon, which really split the fanbase. After two divisive and (in my opinion) inconsistent releases with Olzon, singer number three arrived in the form of Floor Jansen, something of a coup given her outstanding versatility and power. Her first studio outing with the group, Endless Forms Most Beautiful, was possibly a stronger release than either of Olzon's records, but after the adventurous nature of Imaginaerum, it felt like quite a safe record, returning heavily to the sound of Once in particular. But hey, they had a stellar singer that they wanted to give some of her own songs to sing live, and it made sense to stick to what they knew worked. Five years later, and Human. :II: Nature. is the opportunity to truly see what Nightwish can do with Floor on board. Sadly, what they can do simply isn't up to snuff.

Human. :II: Nature. is more "experimental" than Endless Forms Most Beautiful, and none of these experiments are egregious backfires (except perhaps the chanting towards the end of "Tribal"), but nor are they particularly rewarding. According to Jansen, the song "Shoemaker" lacks a typical structure. I would argue that Nightwish aren't the kind of band that can really pull off such a venture, as the flow of this track is rather lacking. Additionally, the convoluted ascending vocal lines earlier on in the song aren't really delivered with the power one would expect from Floor. After "Shoemaker" comes "Harvest", another notable departure for the group. "Disney music" has long been a label used in certain circles to describe more modern Nightwish, and it's not been one I really saw as valid before "Harvest" dropped as a single. A vehicle for Troy Donockley to shine as a lead vocalist, it really does feel taken from a musical animated movie, particularly with its acapella harmonies; however, I doubt it would be the highlight of whatever soundtrack it was featured in, and is only partially rescued by the instrumental midsection, a pleasant throwback to the folk of "I Want My Tears Back" from Imaginaerum.

Some have maligned Donockley's permanent membership and subsequent increased role in the group as a major contributing factor to the issues Human. :II: Nature. has. In and of itself, I don't find it to be a problem; I've enjoyed folky elements in Nightwish songs, especially "I Want My Tears Back" (probably my favourite post-Tarja Nightwish song), and whilst I don't like "Harvest" (nor am I particularly enthused by "How's The Heart?"), I haven't got any major issue with him as a vocalist in principle. However, the fact that he gets a whole song to take centre stage on only makes the minimal presence of Marco Hietala's vocals more glaring. He is the lead singer with an uncharacteristically docile performance on "Endlessness" and gets a small backing bit in "Tribal", but otherwise is largely absent on the vocal front, despite having a far more captivating voice than Donockley, which is frankly bewildering to me. On the topic of vocals, much has been said regarding Floor Jansen on this record. Personally, I've found the songs in general to have been a bigger issue than anything she's done specifically, but as someone who's seen her smash the likes of "Ghost Love Score", "The Poet And The Pendulum" and more live, I really can't say anything on Human. :II: Nature. impressed me to a remotely similar degree.

I don't completely dislike this album, not by any means. I enjoyed "Noise" when it dropped as the first single, and I continue to enjoy it within the context of the record. It's very much in the vein of their post-2000 material, relatively simplistic but with a memorable chorus hook and a suitably exciting dramatic bridge during which Floor moves into more operatic territory. "Pan", another heavier cut, brings the bombast in its electric chorus and allows Jansen a chance to dig into some more twisted vocal melodies during the verses. Nevertheless, even these tracks stand out within the context of the rest of Human. :II: Nature., rather than the Nightwish discography as a whole.

In relation to the lyrics explored on Human. :II: Nature., Nightwish have mentioned some pretty huge themes in the press building up to this release, including the history of music, planetary science, love and the meaning of life. The ambition is clearly there thematically and in terms of musical experimentation, but the songs just don't back it up. For a start, a song that allegedly describes the entire evolution of music should have a lot more going for it than "Music", a track that, like "Procession", came and went on each playthrough without leaving much of an impression of any kind, good or bad.

All the music discussed so far only covers disc 1 of Human. :II: Nature.; disc 2 of this release is the furthest exploration of the 'symphonic' aspect of Nightwish yet, a 30-minute purely orchestral venture. I think all of us on this website can agree it's harder to compare this music against the vast expanse of orchestral music that exists, even if we restrict ourselves to modern compositions, than it is to discuss the metal songs. I will say, fair play to Holopainen, this was a bold step for him and it wasn't a disaster; "All The Works Of Nature Which Adorn The World" doesn't massively drag at any point, with a decent ebb and flow, and well-paced introduction of unique elements, such as the focus on pipes in part 4, "Moors", which has a touch of Rohan's music from The Lord Of The Rings. At the same time, the most natural comparison for disc 2 is the music to films such as The Lord Of The Rings, and compared against the great scores, even of the 21st century, it is a somewhat rudimentary effort. Additionally, the rehash of "The Greatest Show On Earth" with a lengthy spoken word diatribe regarding the place of man within the world slightly tarnishes the final movement, "Ad Astra".

Nightwish reached for greatness on Human. :II: Nature., but in doing lost a lot of what made them great in the first place, at least for me. I've found every Nightwish release from Once onwards to have notable ups and downs, but I've always found at least something worth returning for. I may revisit "Noise" and "Pan" on occasion, but otherwise I cannot see Human. :II: Nature. offering any lasting appeal.


Rating breakdown
Performance: 7
Songwriting: 5
Originality: 6
Production: 7





Written on 13.04.2020 by
musclassia
Hey chief let's talk why not
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Comments: 119   [ 3 ignored ]   Visited by: 547 users
16.04.2020 - 11:31
Mark Ayoub
I'd be happier if the songwriting was shared by all the members. It's easy to forget that Floor was the primary lyricist for After Forever & ReVamp. And the music for some songs. Marco has the talent too otherwise he wouldn't have a solo career. It's a double album for chrissakes! Not like there wasn't enough room. I don't resent the orchestral piece. On the contrary Tuomas could have expanded on it and released it as a standalone orchestral album like Blind Guardian did or Epica did with The Score.
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It takes a lifetime to build a friendship
And a millisecond to destroy it
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16.04.2020 - 11:55
Bad English
Tage Westerlund
And now we can wait part II
comments in MSA 2020 when this band wont be nominated and voted be deleted
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I stand whit Ukraine and Israel. They have right to defend own citizens.

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''
apos;'
[image]
I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
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16.04.2020 - 12:10
Rating: 9
justsaying
Written by Mark Ayoub on 16.04.2020 at 11:31

I'd be happier if the songwriting was shared by all the members. It's easy to forget that Floor was the primary lyricist for After Forever & ReVamp. And the music for some songs. Marco has the talent too otherwise he wouldn't have a solo career. It's a double album for chrissakes! Not like there wasn't enough room. I don't resent the orchestral piece. On the contrary Tuomas could have expanded on it and released it as a standalone orchestral album like Blind Guardian did or Epica did with The Score.


There are actually interviews where Tuomas has said that e.g. Marco did all the polishing of harmonics here. And has said before how happy he is that finally they have singer who is also a songwriter and makes suggestions etc.
And on the album notes all of them have been credited for arrangement etc.
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17.04.2020 - 01:21
Rating: 9
Thyroid
5.7 just made me laugh, sorry. It just revealed the saltiness behind otherwise reasonable, well written review. Why not 3.2 or 2.3 to prove the point?

The most boring scenario for me, would be if Nightwish should try to imitate or make those classic albums again. So many bands choose that road, and they usually fail. Those bands doesn't gain new fans, and old fans are still not satisfied either. 'Once' was written 15 years ago for example. Fuck, my daughter is younger than Once, and she is smoking cigarettes already.

I totally get it, when band changes their sound totally over the years; it doesnt always sit well with old fans. Then you just need to let it go. Accept it. Focus on other bands. Don't be that douche polluting the air, crying about albums and band members that happened generations ago. They don't come back.

There are old fans who doesnt like the change, and there are old fans who are okay with it - but especially there are new fans who doesn't give a shit what happened before. They usually focus on the present - and, since the present might be their first touch to the bands music, old stuff might sound shitty and awkward to them.

My personal favourite from Nightwish is probably Century Child. Still, it would make zero sense to me to even compare this album to that one. I just can't (and don't want to) rank this album with others, except for EFMB. I liked EFMB, but this one has way better songwriting, lyrics, vocals, guitars, mixing and overall sound than EFMB.

Sometimes, Tuomas could use little less words in his lyrics though. More room for vocalist to bend those notes, and maybe add more soul, and interpretation to the songs. Cause I know, based on Beste Zangers for example, Floor Jansen is really soulful vocalist.
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My belt holds up my pants and my pants have belt loops that hold up the belt.
What the fuck's really goin on down there? Who is the real hero?
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17.04.2020 - 21:23
Rating: 6
4look4rd
The Sasquatch
You mentioned being disappointed since Once, but IMO the writing was in the wall with Century Child.

Once was already a Disney album. Toumas pushed the symphonic elements too far and they lost the magic of their first four albums. It's been downhill from there.

They never really released a bad album, but they became so bland and generic that I consider Xandria's (a clone band) Neverworld's End as the best Nightwish album since Once.
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17.04.2020 - 23:17
Rating: 3
SikorskiWitness
Century Child and Once, while they did represent the beginning of Tuomas's obsessions with Disney movie soundtracks, were still heavily anchored in the heavy metal sound. The guitar tone was clear and heavy, the usage of keyboards was not one dimensional, the sound emanated power and they were overall good albums, albeit with some fillers. Dark Passion Play was rather similar, in some aspects heavier (Master Passion Greed anyone?) but some tracks were a bit too commercial (particularly Amaranth and BBB). Things started going downwards with Imaginaerum. While overall a solid album, just half the songs were anything noteworthy, with the long song being boring, a far-cry from the epicness of The Poet and the Pendulum.

Funny thing is, people hated DPP and Imaginaerum not because the music was horrendous. But because of the female vocalist. Which honestly, did a really good job on them. I've always said that time will prove Anette was a good choice. And yes, Floor is a better vocalist, but what's the point in having her around if you give her bland, lazy, uninspired, tame songs to sing on? I'd rather her reform Revamp or participate in an After Forever reunion (if there will ever be one, doubt it), but it is a pity if she chooses to focus her singing career as part of the current Nightwish. Her talents and skills will not be put to good use. In fact this is no longer Nightwish, this is Tuomas's solo band. Feels like the other members are just hired guns.
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18.04.2020 - 14:29
Rating: 9
justsaying
First, in interviews before they clearly said they've done something they've never done before and that Floor was challenged in singing. She does the growlier sound of ReVAmp in Tribal. She does high belting e.g. in Noise, Pan, How's the Heart, even at the end of Music, at times very close to the end of GLS.
She does high 'operatic' in Noise, Shoemaker. More poppish e.g. in How's the Heart, mixing and at times very similar to After Forever.
At the end of Pan, low operatic I think I haven't heard from her before in rock/pop song, with the vhoir, at the end.
So, all the elements she has used in After Forever, ReVamp, EFMB are there.
Furthermore, on top, there is melismatic style which is extremely difficult, really tough quick interval jumps and she executes them with flawless preciseness. That is one of the things they challenged her in singing, but maybe people were expecting more high notes, high belting etc and not this type of singing.
Furthermore, there are rhytmic things, e.g. the syncope in How's the Heart. Then descending chromatic scale in Pan, not easy to sing either.
Singing-wise, I think this is the most complex album she has ever made.

Music-wise, alike all the previous Nightwish elements are there: there are heavy riffs, and in Tribal Kai got 5 extra drums. Emppu has said that he is afraid his hand will cramp when playing Pan live. There are symphonic elements, although some of them are more of an opera like the choir in Pan, very baroque-Bach like like at the end of Shoemaker. The elements are used a little bit differently, but they are there and in most songs there are bits when you know instantly that it's a Nightwish.

On top, there are some atonal features, so maybe those, with celtic influences in some (although nothing new either) and the singing style not expected, not used to give it a sound some find strange and a lighter feeling when e.g. Pan and Tribal are the heaviest songs they've done in a while, music-wise.

And I'm interested what kind of arrangements are done for live versions, they may sound a bit different from the album versions and I wouldn't be surprised to hear e.g. a longer guitar solo in Tribal or even in Music live.
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18.04.2020 - 16:22
Rating: 6
RaduP
CertifiedHipster
staff
Crazy how this thread just keeps going and going
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Do you think if the heart keeps on shrinking
One day there will be no heart at all?
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18.04.2020 - 17:08
Starvynth
i c deaf people
staff
Written by RaduP on 18.04.2020 at 16:22

Crazy how this thread just keeps going and going

Yes! And I'm so glad that I could follow this enlightening discussion.

You know, Initially I felt tempted to rate this 5/10 without even having heard a single note - because Nightwish is a big name and I'm generous.

But reading all of these comments and getting aware of all these tiny but most important details, I believe that I can now finally grasp the very essence of this album. It's as if I would have played each song countless of time, felt each note with every fibre of my body and breathed Tuomas' air while dancing to all those god-given melodies in feverish ecstasy. I can feel it now, it's a 10/10, it just has to be.
Maybe one day I'll even listen to its immaculate magic for real.


On a more serious note, I'm glad that a Nightwish fan reviewed this for Metal Storm and that he had the guts to share his honest opinion despite of the foreseeable whining of the self-proclaimed experts.
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signatures = SPAM
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18.04.2020 - 17:11
Rating: 6
RaduP
CertifiedHipster
staff
Written by Starvynth on 18.04.2020 at 17:08

On a more serious note, I'm glad that a Nightwish fan reviewed this for Metal Storm and that he had the guts to share his honest opinion despite of the foreseeable whining of the self-proclaimed experts.

Though to be perfectly honest, I'm glad people aren't taking the reviewer's word as law. As much as I like to make fun of this entire thread, I'm glad there's some discussion and that the criticism of the review isn't always "The reviewer must miss Tarja". justsaying did raise a few valid points about folks calling Floor misused here and I respect that he took the time to actually put valid arguments forward.

But obviously they're all wrong and I'm right.
----
Do you think if the heart keeps on shrinking
One day there will be no heart at all?
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18.04.2020 - 17:26
Rating: 5
musclassia
staff
Written by RaduP on 18.04.2020 at 17:11

Written by Starvynth on 18.04.2020 at 17:08

On a more serious note, I'm glad that a Nightwish fan reviewed this for Metal Storm and that he had the guts to share his honest opinion despite of the foreseeable whining of the self-proclaimed experts.

Though to be perfectly honest, I'm glad people aren't taking the reviewer's word as law. As much as I like to make fun of this entire thread, I'm glad there's some discussion and that the criticism of the review isn't always "The reviewer must miss Tarja". justsaying did raise a few valid points about folks calling Floor misused here and I respect that he took the time to actually put valid arguments forward.

But obviously they're all wrong and I'm right.


Yeah I appreciate justsaying's contributions - this album clearly connected with them deeply and they've put a lot of effort into dissecting it and highlighting what they consider to be positive aspects of the instrumentation and vocal arrangements; I much prefer that to the lazy 'you're just bitter that Tarja left' accusations or the 'just listen to it 50 times and the magic will reveal itself to you' cliche. I didn't hear anything sufificent interesting at the macro level in the music here across several focussed listens to justify me taking such a deep dive into the micro like they have, but (aside from the whole 'this is heavier than previous albums' statement) I can't necessarily disagree with anything else they're saying. I just didn't hear anything whilst listening to this album that would justify developing such strong feelings for it, but naturally tastes differ.
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18.04.2020 - 17:33
Rating: 6
RaduP
CertifiedHipster
staff
Written by justsaying on 18.04.2020 at 14:29

Nighwish defending

Hey, just so it doesn't feel like we're talking about you without talking to you.

Thanks for your contributions. I might give the first disc another go with what you said about Floor's vocal approaches in mind.
----
Do you think if the heart keeps on shrinking
One day there will be no heart at all?
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18.04.2020 - 17:54
Rating: 9
SAY10
Written by Fabiano on 15.04.2020 at 10:34

Written by nikarg on 14.04.2020 at 21:18

On MS when we see 6 we automatically think the album is for the dumpster. Which is not true by the way.


We get to think that because the displaying number is close to red. Red means shit. So here we go.


You have a very good point that is on my mind since I started reading reviews here. The colors are not right for the classification. I mean we only see green (that we associate with good) show up from above 8/10. Even a 7.5/10, which is by any standards good or even really good, is shown up here as yellow, which we associate as just your average meh... in a 0 to 10 scale, anything above 5 should be considered positive, yet up to 6.9 (if I'm not mistaken) is all colored from red to dark orange, so it's all "bad" to the eyes. MS staff should review this coloring, or just take the colors out plain and simple. We are very visual creatures.
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18.04.2020 - 20:07
Rating: 5
musclassia
staff
Written by SAY10 on 18.04.2020 at 17:54

Written by Fabiano on 15.04.2020 at 10:34


We get to think that because the displaying number is close to red. Red means shit. So here we go.


You have a very good point that is on my mind since I started reading reviews here. The colors are not right for the classification. I mean we only see green (that we associate with good) show up from above 8/10. Even a 7.5/10, which is by any standards good or even really good, is shown up here as yellow, which we associate as just your average meh... in a 0 to 10 scale, anything above 5 should be considered positive, yet up to 6.9 (if I'm not mistaken) is all colored from red to dark orange, so it's all "bad" to the eyes. MS staff should review this coloring, or just take the colors out plain and simple. We are very visual creatures.


I do kinda agree, if the spectrum runs from red to green, it's a bit excessive for 2-6.9 to be orange. Yellow could probably start from either 5.5 or 6
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18.04.2020 - 20:31
nikarg
staff
This matter has also been discussed on this thread. Please make any suggestions you have there (and the staff will take all suggestions into account) so that we can get back on topic here. Thank you, all.
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18.04.2020 - 21:43
Fulcrum
If I have to be honest, I didn't have big expectations when news on the album hit the media. I haven't listened to it as I do not intend buying it - the few songs on the youtube official channel are, well,

Tuomas long ago indicated with the whole management of the band that if in the past they cared about music, now they care only about money. Floor was boarded exactly because of this - fans liked her despite errors he does on live and her limited vocal range. And then Disney music...

Not sure if they all need so much money but Nightwish are following Within Temptation who, after being a superb band went totally crap with this Resist thing.
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18.04.2020 - 23:22
Rating: 9
justsaying
Floor doesn't do a lot of errors live, and alike e.g. Tarja didn't always nail it live and well, Annette was awful live, good on record though. Live, it was decent with songs written for her, the rest, awful, and no charisma like Tarja or Floor. Weird, because the duet with Rasmus (October & April) she nailed live.

I'm just interested where you base your claim on Floor's limited vocal range? Octave-wise, it's wider than Tarja's was, Floor can sing lower. Her tone is different and she is the first one of the three to actually graduate from singing, university level. Tarja never finished her studies, not in Finland nor in Germany.

And I agree, Resist is the worst album by Within Temptation, I can listen to it, no problem, but there are no highlights etc. It was a disappointment, whereas with Nightwish, I consider this one to be their best one, but can understand if not all like it. They've kept all the elements of the past, but there is atonal features, melismatic singing etc that can put people off. For me, it's a step forward, even to more complex music patterns and more varied singing styles etc, more experimental in a way I like it.
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19.04.2020 - 18:31
Draconium
The ending of Shoemaker is the only thing i truly like in this album... Floor is the right singer in the wrong Nishtwish Era...
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19.04.2020 - 19:32
Rating: 3
SikorskiWitness
Written by justsaying on 18.04.2020 at 23:22

Floor doesn't do a lot of errors live, and alike e.g. Tarja didn't always nail it live and well, Annette was awful live, good on record though. Live, it was decent with songs written for her, the rest, awful, and no charisma like Tarja or Floor. Weird, because the duet with Rasmus (October & April) she nailed live.

I'm just interested where you base your claim on Floor's limited vocal range? Octave-wise, it's wider than Tarja's was, Floor can sing lower. Her tone is different and she is the first one of the three to actually graduate from singing, university level. Tarja never finished her studies, not in Finland nor in Germany.

And I agree, Resist is the worst album by Within Temptation, I can listen to it, no problem, but there are no highlights etc. It was a disappointment, whereas with Nightwish, I consider this one to be their best one, but can understand if not all like it. They've kept all the elements of the past, but there is atonal features, melismatic singing etc that can put people off. For me, it's a step forward, even to more complex music patterns and more varied singing styles etc, more experimental in a way I like it.


Anette was not awful live. She was awful at singing most Tarja songs though. The songs written for her, she executed them in a flawless manner. This album by Nightwish is one of the worst they've ever did. Scratch that, it is the worst. And I thought you can't go much lower than the previous one. This is music made for movies or documentaries. I can find a catchy tune in WT's Resist, but I can't find a single one here. It has been a long time since an album has bored me so much as this one.
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19.04.2020 - 19:50
Rating: 3
SikorskiWitness
Written by justsaying on 18.04.2020 at 14:29

Vocal ramblings and Nightwish fanboyism


You seem to forget that music is not the same with vocal training and prowess. The point of the matter is, the music and Floor's vocals here, same like on the previous album, are disjointed. On EFMB I could understand why, as the album was tailored for Anette to sing on, but this one? You had some years to get accustomed with her as a singer. Why the need to make an inferior version of EFMB? Because Tuomas thinks he can get some Hollywood director to notice him?

Another things. No matter how skillful Floor is as a vocalist, the music does not help her vocal performance reach its full potential. The music is lazy, unimaginative, lethargic and boring. So it matters less that she makes use of all her vocal variation in several songs. None of her performances even touch the quality of her previous works. Why? Because the songwriting in After Forever and Revamp was simply better. Here, it is not.

The same can be said about the other members. Emppu's guitar is barely noticeable. Where are those heavy rhythm guitar passages and neoclassical solos? The drumming is lazy too. In fact there is more usage of tribal drums. For a guy that played impressively in Wintersun and Swallow the Sun, the drumming performance here is scarce, and where it exists, it is forgettable.

If there ever was a word that would describe the overall feeling of this album it is lifelessness. Because it is what it is. This is the kind of album you would expect from a tired, pensioner rock musician that wants to experience fame and glory at the end of his career. I have always said that metal, in general, is a young man's game. Nightwish is just another band, among countless which prove that aging does not come necessarily with wisdom. But with artistic sloth.
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20.04.2020 - 11:25
Rating: 5
The Melting Snow
Written by SikorskiWitness on 19.04.2020 at 19:50


The same can be said about the other members. Emppu's guitar is barely noticeable. Where are those heavy rhythm guitar passages and neoclassical solos? The drumming is lazy too. In fact there is more usage of tribal drums. For a guy that played impressively in Wintersun and Swallow the Sun, the drumming performance here is scarce, and where it exists, it is forgettable.



100% in agreement there. This band had many strengths: compositions, lyrics, guitars, drums, vocals. and they knew how to combine all those elements to make something special. In this album, they lack in each department. everything is a mess. cheesy lyrics, bland composition, forgettable instrumentation.

Within Temptation changed a lot, but their main strength was always Sharon's vocals (they never had kickass instrumentation or song concepts) and her vocals are still top-notch in an otherwise forgettable album. Because of her vocal delivery you still find memorable melodies here and there in their recent works too.
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A Metalhead's Lullaby
Best of 2023
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20.04.2020 - 11:28
Rating: 5
The Melting Snow
The album has tarnished Floor's name too for me. The previous album was sort of a transition so I thought she was still finding her footing. but there shouldn't be any excuse for the weak performance this time around.

I think she is highly overrated. The last 20 odd songs she's done could have been done by any run of the mill vocalist
----
A Metalhead's Lullaby
Best of 2023
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20.04.2020 - 15:22
Rating: 9
justsaying
Written by The Melting Snow on 20.04.2020 at 11:28

The album has tarnished Floor's name too for me. The previous album was sort of a transition so I thought she was still finding her footing. but there shouldn't be any excuse for the weak performance this time around.

I think she is highly overrated. The last 20 odd songs she's done could have been done by any run of the mill vocalist


I have a suggestion for you - and all who think an average singer or grandma could sing these melodies - grab the best singer in your class from school and let hem/her try. Even better if they have more singing classes or studies under they belt. Let them hear this and let them sing it for you. Let's talk again after that.

No, it's not full boombastic power metal nor a live show. They use more instrumentation now, more balanced and that's why one cannot hear the drums and guitar all the time, but they are there, strong as hell. There are just more layers these days, not just drums, a guitar solo, and high notes in classical style with some choir etc thrown into it.

At least now I can always tell when the song changes. Didn't happen with Resist - if I didn't pay attention, I lost completely the track of songs.

For some - alike in more official reviews etc - this is a step forward and their best one. It may not be what some expected, more or less consciously, but bands do change over time. That's the thing - if they keep on doing the same thing - more or less - people get bored. If they change, some are bound to get irritated because they want the same old stuff (or something close enough) or because they think it's the wrong way, for various reasons and personal likings are not the least of them.
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20.04.2020 - 15:39
Rating: 9
justsaying
Written by SikorskiWitness on 19.04.2020 at 19:50

Written by justsaying on 18.04.2020 at 14:29

Vocal ramblings and Nightwish fanboyism


You seem to forget that music is not the same with vocal training and prowess. The point of the matter is, the music and Floor's vocals here, same like on the previous album, are disjointed. On EFMB I could understand why, as the album was tailored for Anette to sing on, but this one? You had some years to get accustomed with her as a singer. Why the need to make an inferior version of EFMB? Because Tuomas thinks he can get some Hollywood director to notice him?

Another things. No matter how skillful Floor is as a vocalist, the music does not help her vocal performance reach its full potential. The music is lazy, unimaginative, lethargic and boring. So it matters less that she makes use of all her vocal variation in several songs. None of her performances even touch the quality of her previous works. Why? Because the songwriting in After Forever and Revamp was simply better. Here, it is not.

The same can be said about the other members. Emppu's guitar is barely noticeable. Where are those heavy rhythm guitar passages and neoclassical solos? The drumming is lazy too. In fact there is more usage of tribal drums. For a guy that played impressively in Wintersun and Swallow the Sun, the drumming performance here is scarce, and where it exists, it is forgettable.

If there ever was a word that would describe the overall feeling of this album it is lifelessness. Because it is what it is. This is the kind of album you would expect from a tired, pensioner rock musician that wants to experience fame and glory at the end of his career. I have always said that metal, in general, is a young man's game. Nightwish is just another band, among countless which prove that aging does not come necessarily with wisdom. But with artistic sloth.


To me - and to many others if you read more reviews, comments etc, e.g. there is quite a nice thread on Reddit with quite educated participants commenting on different singing styles in a quite detailed manner - this is the most complicated album they've ever made and far from lifelessness.

No, it's not pure boombastic and classical, kind-of-opera style singing. It has more layers, more varied singing. It has theatrical elemenst, soundtracky features, true, but those have always been there. This is the first album, where there is honestly more to singing than just belting and high, head-voice, classical notes. Anette was poppish, but still quite a lot of belting.

Floor's singing style matches the lyrics, on my opinion, quite well. Of course, for that, one has to grasp the idea of the lyrics, which is not always easy and might require some background reading. Let's take Shoemaker, where the lyrics may seem pretty odd, especially the quote from Shakespeare, if one has no clue that it's about Eugene Shoemaker, one of the founders of planetary science, and that's the quote on the 'box' that contained some of his ashes that were taken into the Moon, when he couldn't join the Apollo expedition as planned due to Addison's disease.
Pan, with the Greek god and the Labyrinth, is full of book names and referrals.

Have you ever questioned why there are tribal drums on this album? Why is it one the recurrent thems on a conceptual album where the next song takes elements from the previous one (or several previous ones), that there might be a point or reason for it, both musically and lyrically? And, damn, Tribal is one their heaviest songs ever taking influences e.g. from Sepultura, and Endlessness takes up features of doom metal quite profoundly.
Take another listen and tick all the times you hear the guitar. Focus only hearing the guitar. The next time, focus only on the drums. Then the next time the singing. And suddenly you start to hear some layers and especially some of the choruses start to play in your head.
Because the drums and guitars are there, almost from the start, the first tribal influences at the beginning of Music, where alike Emppu gets a snippet that might well be a longer solo live.
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20.04.2020 - 15:47
Rating: 4
JoHn Doe
@justsaying - I don't understand what you are doing anymore, it's like people are not allowed to express a negative opinion about something you love. You don't have to argue or disagree with every single post that shows that this album has disappointed someone or is disliked.
If I was to be bothered by people bashing albums I enjoy, I'd go insane.
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I thought the two primary purposes for the internet were cat memes and overreactions.
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20.04.2020 - 17:11
Cynic Metalhead
Paisa Vich Nasha
This is getting interesting.
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Cynic's Metal On Spotify

Cynic's Stoner/Sludge/Doom On Spotify
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20.04.2020 - 17:11
Rating: 3
SikorskiWitness
Written by justsaying on 20.04.2020 at 15:39

More fanboyism


Not really interested in hearing what people have to say on Plebbit. If you bother checking other music aggregate websites, this album is clearly rated and reviewed as the weakest of all Nightwish albums. Floor could sing in all possible singing styles, the fact of the matter is that the songs do not help her vocal performance shine. What's the point in making vocal acrobatics on song that register no emotion and no energy? If you consider this album as a show of her vocal prowess, then you must have listened to something else. All I heard here is a boring, washed up band not knowing what to make of a good and versatile vocalist.

Who gives a hoot about the lyrics when it comes to music? If the music itself is inferior, they could write lyrics about complex philosophical issues or quantum physics, the lyrics will never manage to make mediocre music look good. Lyrics are and should always remain secondary to the music IN music. Otherwise you might as well grab a book of poetry.

I don't need to question the existence of tribal drums. I am not interested why are they are there, but if they are effective and add up to the musical quality of an album. In this case, they are bland and lethargic. They add nothing to the music, in fact it makes it even less energetic. When you have a proficient drummer in your lineup, capable of pulling nice drum stunts like in Wintersun, sidelining him is clearly a bad move.

I have listened to the album 3 times. That is all I could muster. No song stands out. The album plods along lifelessly. A waste of talent, of time and of money to make. The guitar is barely noticeable. How does this compare to the thick guitar sound in DPP? The drums and guitars are simply scarce and powerless. The guitars are so buried in the mix, you need to focus to hear it which is not the point of music. If you need to struggle in order to hear a MAIN instrument, then you clearly failed at delivering a proper musical product. What's the point of having a guitarist and a drummer in your lineup if you push their performance so much in the background? Or not making proper use of their talents? Emppu is clearly capable of more. Kai too.
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20.04.2020 - 18:50
Rating: 9
justsaying
Written by SikorskiWitness on 20.04.2020 at 17:11

Written by justsaying on 20.04.2020 at 15:39

More fanboyism


Not really interested in hearing what people have to say on Plebbit. If you bother checking other music aggregate websites, this album is clearly rated and reviewed as the weakest of all Nightwish albums. Floor could sing in all possible singing styles, the fact of the matter is that the songs do not help her vocal performance shine.

Lyrics are and should always remain secondary to the music IN music. Otherwise you might as well grab a book of poetry.
When you have a proficient drummer in your lineup, capable of pulling nice drum stunts like in Wintersun, sidelining him is clearly a bad move.

The drums and guitars are simply scarce and powerless. The guitars are so buried in the mix, you need to focus to hear it which is not the point of music. If you need to struggle in order to hear a MAIN instrument, then you clearly failed at delivering a proper musical product. What's the point of having a guitarist and a drummer in your lineup if you push their performance so much in the background? Or not making proper use of their talents? Emppu is clearly capable of more. Kai too.


What you consider reliable, proper sites for reviews? Just out of curiosity.

Again, it seems you didn't like it so nobody can. If you say you can't hear drums and guitar e.g. in Tribal, I wonder. If you think the drumming is lame there - or even in Pan - I really do wonder.
In interviews Emppu has said that he's a little afraid to play Pan live, he fears that his hand will cramp. That should tell you something.

Exactly. You're waiting for a main instrument to be thrown at your face so you don't have to listen or pay any attention. That's how your comment seems to be. The guitar, drums etc can be clear and loud without being the main instrument and focus all the time - it's the same e.g. in classical music or can you tell which instrument is the main one in a symphony? Aren't they all there and the focus keeps on shifting, but they're all there and one can hear all of them. Sometimes some are more pronounced and some take a break, it's part of the musical structure.
And just a hint, not everybody has to pay effort to hear the guitar or the drums, I hear them, clear and loud. Just like the singing, and other instruments used, although I cannot always name the exact pipe used or whether it's 2 or 3 violins.

Ever since I started commenting on this album, I've been thrown opinions back. Can't I reply? Is it so bad that I like it and even try to justify it, even analyze the music and the lyrics a bit?

I have no problems of people not liking Nightwish nor symphonic metal. Musical taste is musical taste, personal preferences.
But when it's taken to a level, where it's bad, Floor is underused, can't hear the drums, not enough drums etc making it bad music, that's an argument at another level. Then we should start talking about the structure, musical complexity etc at another level, beyond personal likes and dislikes.
for me, it's totally fine that this doesn't elicit any emotions in you. But it does in me and in many others too, it seems. Is that wrong? Are we liking the album somehow wrong, bad people for liking it?
It's ok to say I'd like to hear more drums, but to bash an album, because it's not align with personal preferences is another thing.

Let's take an example. I don't like rap, it just doesn't resonate with me. I can still appreciate musicianship behind it, try to figure out whether there are more complex rhythmic patterns, check out the lyrics if there's a point in them (and sometimes the lyrics are just excellent, totally on point) and can discussions about rap, although it's not my kind of music and choose not to listen to it if possible. That's a personal taste that has nothing to do whether it's good or bad music-wise and I have no need to go on bashing a rap album only because I don't like the genre, just like I don't like trash metal. But I'm not here bashing the albums.

If you want strong drums, long guitar solos etc, that's fine but to say that an album is musically badly composed if those are not there is again a claim at another level. I would be like me saying that trash metal is bad, because it's just continuous growling and almost similar riffs. But I don't say so, instead I choose to say trash metal is not for me, but I can appreciate good musicians (because they are there too) etc.
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20.04.2020 - 19:13
nikarg
staff
Written by justsaying on 20.04.2020 at 18:50

lots of text

You seem to have a strong opinion on the album and you certainly don't lack the words to justify this opinion. While I don't mind at all reading your comments here, would you like to write a review of your own? You definitely seem to be knowledgeable enough as far as the band is concerned and it's obvious that you have delved deep into this album. How about gathering all your thoughts on Human. :II: Nature. in one piece of text of around 500 words and thus give everyone the opportunity to read your point of view, not through scattered comments, but through a focused, substantiated review? I, for one, would be very interested to read what the opposition to our official review has to say. If you decide to do it, I promise to proofread it and publish it as soon as you submit it.
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21.04.2020 - 07:33
Rating: 7
M C Vice
ex-polydactyl
Written by justsaying on 20.04.2020 at 18:50


Let's take an example. I don't like rap, it just doesn't resonate with me. I can still appreciate musicianship behind it, try to figure out whether there are more complex rhythmic patterns, check out the lyrics if there's a point in them (and sometimes the lyrics are just excellent, totally on point) and can discussions about rap, although it's not my kind of music and choose not to listen to it if possible. That's a personal taste that has nothing to do whether it's good or bad music-wise and I have no need to go on bashing a rap album only because I don't like the genre, just like I don't like trash metal. But I'm not here bashing the albums.

If you want strong drums, long guitar solos etc, that's fine but to say that an album is musically badly composed if those are not there is again a claim at another level. I would be like me saying that trash metal is bad, because it's just continuous growling and almost similar riffs. But I don't say so, instead I choose to say trash metal is not for me, but I can appreciate good musicians (because they are there too) etc.

Did you mean to say trash metal each time?
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"Another day, another Doug."
"I'll fight you on one condition. That you lower your nipples."
" 'Tis a lie! Thy backside is whole and ungobbled, thou ungrateful whelp!"
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