Hello.

On this thread I would like you all to discuss whether free will exists or not. Is everything decided by birth. Is it only nature or nurture? Or do we have a free will?

As a defender of common sense, for me the adequate justification of my free will would be something like that - I want to raise my hand and I manage to raise it, which means my free will (meaning: my freedom to raise my hand when I want it) exists. It´s simple as that. If you want some sort of "absolute" free will then for me it´ s a ridiculous concept.
You for example may posit neurophysical processes behind these events and say that everything is determined by them but that doesn´t mean that free will doesn´t exist because neurophysiology and everyday folk psychology are too separate language games. The problems emerge when we try to translate one into another, they are just too different to match exactly and that may raise many pseudo-problems.
Although I admit that the talk about the "existence" of free will sounds a bit misleading because free will clearly isn´t a thing. So the question is rather strange.

Yes, I think it does exist, cuz we can do what ever we want, right? Or did you mean destiny, and free will is what isn't destiny

No, I think that we do have free will... if there was a destiny then there'd be no point to living at all... I suppose some things can be predictable or work in certain ways which are horribly coincidental, but in the end I think that we have control over our lives.

Written by John Barleycorn on 30.05.2006 at 01:30

Although I admit that the talk about the "existence" of free will sounds a bit misleading because free will clearly isn´t a thing. So the question is rather strange.

Air exists, yet we cannot see it. Concepts, such as free will, exist, abstract as they are, they still exist. Thoughts, for example, exist as manifested in connections between the nerurons in our brains. Free will is a philosophical concept that exists in reality and manifests itself through our actions, ergo it is something that exists.

We are all shaped by our upbringings, by our parents who socialise us, by our local environment, by the schools we go to, by the friends we have..

We are shaped into who we are by what surrounds us. Values and morals are not imprinted in us upon birth. Yet we have the potential to be whoever we wish to be, whatever we wish to be in life, as long as we cease the opportunities that exist. We can use our FREE WILL to pursue our dreams, but in many cases something blocks us from doing it, usually mental blocks, the tall poppy syndrome etc. We care too much about what those surrounding us think about what we do. So we are constricted, within the frame of expectations of us those around us shape.

So I think free will exists, but it is up to us to break out of the mental chains that constrict us from using it to pursue our dreams..

Written by Mertal on 30.05.2006 at 20:46

Written by John Barleycorn on 30.05.2006 at 01:30

Although I admit that the talk about the "existence" of free will sounds a bit misleading because free will clearly isn´t a thing. So the question is rather strange.

Air exists, yet we cannot see it. Concepts, such as free will, exist, abstract as they are, they still exist. Thoughts, for example, exist as manifested in connections between the nerurons in our brains. Free will is a philosophical concept that exists in reality and manifests itself through our actions, ergo it is something that exists.

You seem to be rather platonistic ("philosophical concept that exists in reality and manifests itself through our actions") here. Yes, concepts exist, but that doesn´t mean there has to be something that corresponds to those concepts. I tend to think that most of the "philosophical concepts" are rather empty and useless.
Also there are huge differences between concepts like free will and air. Air is a empirical phenomenon, free will is an abstract concept. And I am not keen on abstractions.
Actually I am not even sure what does free will mean besides being a pragmatical concept that refers to our unhibited voluntary actions. And if this is a question about the possibility of those actions my example about raising my hand applies here as proof of the existence of "free will".

If this is a question about the influence of environment on us then who could deny that influence. But that doesn´t mean that I can´t raise my hand when I want to.

To play devils advocate here, the ability to make decisions is not an indicator of free will. Indeed, it is easy to argue that computers and other such machines can within themselves make decisions based on inputs; taking actions as a result of stimulus -much like ourselves, as products of our environment. Free Will itself, depending of course on how you define such a thing, is the observation, conscious or otherwise, of the reasons behind the things we do.

From a Buddhist stand point, on the other hand, Free Will is all that really, truly exists in this world. This is said, by the Buddah, as it is the only thing that does not change or become altered in anyway.

Though on another hand altogether (resembling more a Hindu Goddess than a viable answer ) it is worthwhile for me to point out that we should not confuse brain function with choice. A child afterall is born into the living breathing world charged with instinct; it's biological brain and muscle memory grows and contracts in order to recall and make use of every thing it has experienced. Every action therfore and thereafter is a product comprising of the choosing between certain infaliable facts stored in and by memory. Free will, in this sense, is but a choice of action based on previous experience

Of course,dont you people listen to Rush Anyways I do think that everyone has free will.Everyone has control of their lives completly,what we end up to be 20 years from now,is a reflection of our own doing.We can make all the decisions we want but every one of them changes our life somehow.

I Think that is very hard to get free, because the society control our lifes in many ways and we live with lots of things which makes our life very different and unoriginal, many times created by ourselves

Written by The Alchemist on 31.05.2006 at 07:01

I Think that is very hard to get free, because the society control our lifes in many ways and we live with lots of things which makes our life very different and unoriginal, many times created by ourselves

This seems like an interesting point. Might you clarify a little, so that I might get a better understanding of what you are saying!

Well, I think that society control our lifes in many ways because of the media: they show lots of wrong ideas which makes people fool and dependent, our family/friends sometimes: they make us think other things that aren't ok for us and make our life completely different, changing what we really think

From this is that we create some ideas which make our life more different and the worst is that many times it's difficult to change wrong ideas, created by others or by ourselves

It's a hard topic to discuss because there are so many views of it.
In my opinion "Free will" both does and does not exist (god, there couldn't be a more unanswered answer).

Employment -
When you are young, probably about the age of 5 or slightly older, you are told that you can do anything, you could become an astronaut, you could change the way the world uses energy etc etc.
Yes, you can go through life thinking this, you study hard at school and get the education required for the goals you want to achieve, but the reality can be (and in most cases is) is that there is no "demand" for an Astronaut or a Scientist.

In this age and current societal standard, there is very little employment for want-to-be News Reporter or Special Weapons Tester (I wanted this job) and increasing employment for the Retail Staff person or a Trades person (eg. plumber, carpenter, technician etc).
This is what our economy wants because, if you look at it like I do, the few great jobs like astronaut, scientist or whatever are the ones that change the world and the many mediocre jobs like receptionist, printer, accountant etc. are the ones that keep the world moving (in a sense).
To put it simply, you have free will to try and go for these things, but there is a chance (and there is always a chance) that you can't get it because nobody needs these.

Living -
"Free will" in this sense is simpler I believe because of this phrase "You have narrow power to do whatever you want" (nobody famous said this so don't ask).
If you look at what you sacrifice to live in a so-called peaceful society, you need a job that consumes a lot of your life's time to obtain money, nearly half (depending on your salary intake) goes to taxes to pay for roads and unemployment etc. The other half goes towards paying bills and mortgages, with a small sum left over for luxuries and whatever.

This "social standard" is forced upon you, you must work to pay taxes, you must drive the way we tell you to, you must believe and think the way we tell you or we will see you as a broken member of our functioning economy and consider you a criminal. Having different ideas and ways of living will nearly always be challenged or abused about. So pretty much you CAN live in your own free will, but there will always be someone to force you to believe otherwise.



Holy crap I typed a lot, sorry about that. You don't have to read it all, I just like a good topic talker.

@Woven Elegy: well if you wish to change the world there are other ways than becoming an Austronaut... Ever heard of the companies called MicroSoft, and Google?

Anyways back to the topic... What if 100% free will exists, but we realize that everyone has it, so to make everyone live well together, we compromise some of it, and much of it through watching TV and believing what others say our lives should be like is what they should be like. It is kind of like humans only using about 1% or probably a lot less than even that, of the human brain power. It is there, it is within reach, however we just don't take and cease it...

Written by Guest on 31.05.2006 at 00:49

Free Will itself, depending of course on how you define such a thing, is the observation, conscious or otherwise, of the reasons behind the things we do.

That I didn´t understand.

For me there is no meaning behind "free will" besides the everyday use of that concept. So I even don´t believe there can be given a definition of free will because there is nothing to define. It´s just a notion we can use in courtrooms, for example.
I raise my hand, again.

it is our free will which takes us to our destiny! you make choices every day ... you and only you!

It exists, yes, but most people dont use it.

Written by Guest on 31.05.2006 at 00:49

To play devils advocate here, the ability to make decisions is not an indicator of free will. Indeed, it is easy to argue that computers and other such machines can within themselves make decisions based on inputs; taking actions as a result of stimulus -much like ourselves, as products of our environment. Free Will itself, depending of course on how you define such a thing, is the observation, conscious or otherwise, of the reasons behind the things we do.

From a Buddhist stand point, on the other hand, Free Will is all that really, truly exists in this world. This is said, by the Buddah, as it is the only thing that does not change or become altered in anyway.

Though on another hand altogether (resembling more a Hindu Goddess than a viable answer ) it is worthwhile for me to point out that we should not confuse brain function with choice. A child afterall is born into the living breathing world charged with instinct; it's biological brain and muscle memory grows and contracts in order to recall and make use of every thing it has experienced. Every action therfore and thereafter is a product comprising of the choosing between certain infaliable facts stored in and by memory. Free will, in this sense, is but a choice of action based on previous experience

Daibh, pure genius.

My viewpoint on free will is that all behaviors can be traced back to an antecedent cause. I think all motivated behavior involves a systematically organized sequence of actions.
GROSSLY-SIMPLIFIED ACTION SEQUENCE:
1. Child Born with natural instincts, simple reflex responses and modal action patterns
2. Develops within suitable environment
3. Starts to store ideals and symbols of it's own universe
4. The ideal of self-identity: who am i?, is encountered naturally
5. One aspect of this identity: musical taste, is shaped
6. This desire for musical identity motivates search of internet for information
7. The desire is satisfied by enrollment of online metal community
8. Philosophical ideals are shared with others via forum to further solidify self-identity

Sorry about the self-identity nonsense, it just basically descibes the human struggle to make yourself stand out from other competing humans in the search for a potential mate...)

All I'm saying is that our decisions are motivated by other factors and can be "traced" to previous experiences (environment/nurture) and how our brains are hard-wired (innate/nature). So our free will "choices" ultimately have to operate within the boundaries of these factors.

And for a long time i struggled with trying to understand why someone would kill themselves, but i think that it has to do with a chemical disposition in the brain and the learned helplessness model. Someone should start a "Suicide" thread so we can discuss it further ( I can't start topics yet.)

I think many people go too far within the whole society vs free will spectrum.
The usual answer comes from reasoning as follows:
1. Do I have a free will?
2. My actions are determined by influences of my environment and my genetic structure.
3. Therefore no, I do nothing without interference of external agencies.
Such reasoning forgets about one important point:
Defining the "I".
What is I, I as a human being? It is a genetic structure with mind and body additionally built by many prior events, or in other words: influences.
So when we ask "Do I have a free will", we have to remember both genetics and prior events, to I, are internal, rather than external agencies. The only way to disrupt the free will is through the now. We cannot look at the past, since past defines the "I".
Free Will can be disrupted by government, police, lack of money. It cannot be disrupted by mere influence.

if our actions are just complex reactions based on genetic and environmental factors and past experiences then free will may well not exist....in fact it probably doesn't.......

i don't believe that free will exists to the extent we believe it does. we subconsciously react to changes in our environment and the people around us and this is out of our control to an extent, therefore its not free will.

If free will existed, my body and my mind would always obey my instructions. No, I am not who I am because of choices, I am who I am because of genetics and stimuli. If free will existed, I would often morph to be able to act like artists/actors. I would always speak with dignity, but it is society who wants me to make a fool of myself.

Free will is a concept that is explored in movies like the one where Keanu Reeves plays god within a program. It would give me a woundrous life.

I don't know if free will exists, but freewheel burning by judas priest does...
... bad joke

Anyway, it exists as long as it doesn't interfere with laws, for example, in the case of choosing a religion. But when it comes to decide whether to vote or don't in an election, some countries like mine still make you vote even when it's such an unnecessary act. If somebody wants to suport a candidate, good for him, but if another person doesn't, it's on his own to decide.

And, in the last elections in my country, a lot of people asked the government "why isn's voting optional", and some spokesman I guess said: "It's because or country is not developed yet to have such kind of process. Most people wouldn't even vote". But I guess a country has the government it deserves right?. If my country deserves to have a shitty government, well then bring it on. The change will come when the people decide to take part in it. I went off the topic sorry.

But, in the end, IMO free will exists, depending on the environment where it is practiced.

NO NO AND NO!!!! Freewill only exists in man's dreams! even the ones who say it does know deep inside that it doesnt!

I think free will does not exist, for human beings are limited in their actions towards some external goal, our emotions also imprison us. To have free will one must be omnipotent. I'll quote from Fight Club: "Its only when we lose everything, are we free to do anything". (i don't know whether this is an exact quotation btw). Human beings fear, want and desire objects. A stupid example, I want to stop breathing willingly, and I hold my breath. But eventually the muslces will come lose and ill breathe.

Written by Guest on 01.08.2006 at 00:21

A stupid example, I want to stop breathing willingly, and I hold my breath. But eventually the muslces will come lose and ill breathe.

just because a natural reflex means we automatically breathe doesn't mean that free will doesn't exist.


anyway, ill throw in an example for people to discuss. look at the way that the vast majority of germans were pro-hitler during WW2. now look at how nowadays, people are vehemently anti-racist. were does free-will come into this? we're all controlled by our surroundings. some more than others but still almost entirely not free-will.

Yeah the last thing that was left to us is free will. I believe that free will controls our destiny by making our choices, i don't believe that every man has a specific fate and that everything was planned for him from the moment he was born.

Written by Mertal on 30.05.2006 at 20:46

Written by John Barleycorn on 30.05.2006 at 01:30

Although I admit that the talk about the "existence" of free will sounds a bit misleading because free will clearly isn´t a thing. So the question is rather strange.

Air exists, yet we cannot see it. Concepts, such as free will, exist, abstract as they are, they still exist. Thoughts, for example, exist as manifested in connections between the nerurons in our brains. Free will is a philosophical concept that exists in reality and manifests itself through our actions, ergo it is something that exists.

We are all shaped by our upbringings, by our parents who socialise us, by our local environment, by the schools we go to, by the friends we have..

We are shaped into who we are by what surrounds us. Values and morals are not imprinted in us upon birth. Yet we have the potential to be whoever we wish to be, whatever we wish to be in life, as long as we cease the opportunities that exist. We can use our FREE WILL to pursue our dreams, but in many cases something blocks us from doing it, usually mental blocks, the tall poppy syndrome etc. We care too much about what those surrounding us think about what we do. So we are constricted, within the frame of expectations of us those around us shape.

So I think free will exists, but it is up to us to break out of the mental chains that constrict us from using it to pursue our dreams..

You took the words right out of my mouth... GIVE THEM BACK!!! lol, seriously though, it's nice to see there's others who can make sense of this conglomerated mess... Free will does exist, but it is transparent, invisible, though it is not unnattainable...

I belive that if you take "a picture" of eveything that exists in the universe including every single atom and evey single string of energy including a supposed soul that we might have, and have the sutable eqipment (which is impossible by default) you could calculate everything that will happen in the future... still that doesn't exclude you free will, which will be included in the calculation... even predestined, your free will is still free...
this is what seems right to me... of caurse, I'm not really sure...

Free will exists as a part of a utopia in our brain, i don't believe it exist because we are slaves of our own actions, even if we take some kind of 'free will decision', the consecuences of it will lead us to act in an predeterminated way, which isn't of course 'free will', i think that we have in our mind and souls free will, but not in the real world, there are many levels of limitations, that can't give us a complete free will (looking at the textual definition of this concept)

I think we have free will, but what we percieve as free will is being independent and making our own decisions. But I think absolute free will is a spiritual level that few get to and that barriers and illusions have to be breaken down first.