Free will is a kind of fucked up idea. It can be used it all kinds of situations. People can say stuff like "blabla, this what I believe in" and the response can be "blabla, I believe you are wrong". It's all correct. As far as free will is concerned, there is no incorrect answer. It fucks up things...Everyone can justify their ideals by claiming "I have a right to believe what I want to", and in theory, no one could oppose that. This goes deeper into democracy, so I won't carry on with it. Just wanted to post my idea, that free will is what will eventually fuck everything up more than it already is.

@headbang vol. 99: Agreed...people get away with so many things in this day and age actually in society just because they protect themselves with the claim that "this is what I believe in so therefore I can do this if I want to"...in a lot of cases, the powers that be don't oppose it and just let it happen...

Our free well is controlled but what we want to do and what we don't , and our desires affects and affected by others, so i guess we dont

Only in our minds - there are just too many contraiaints

WD414:

That's a great little YT series, I'm glad somebody else on MS has discovered It.

Written by Guest on 11.03.2011 at 10:23

WD414:

That's a great little YT series, I'm glad somebody else on MS has discovered It.

Just found them the other day. The crap movie comics Davis does on othieves.com are also brilliant.

Hmmm, well...seeing as the idea behind free will is pretty much being able to make choices without constraints, I would say no, it doesn't truly exist. Considering this scenario...a man robs a bank [choice] and gets sent to jail as a result [consequence], yes he wanted to rob the bank and did so without constraints, but didn't want to go to jail...amusingly, he asked the judge if he could be pardoned...judge says no, he asked therefore chose [in his mind] that he didn't want to go jail, but that choice was constrained as he did end up going to jail.

How do you decide if free will exists here? Do you judge only his first action, or do you still consider the fact he made a choice in his mind to ask, so as not to be sent to jail?

Free will becomes an even more complicated topic when you consider the paradox of choice and you see examples of it every single day. Lets say one wants to buy a new phone, but has one of those old 'brick' Nokia phones with a colourless screen...how on Earth do they choose? There's so much choice, it's almost impossible and the obvious way of thinking about that is...'they choose the one they want...duh', but the moment they get a new phone and it isn't living up to their expectations, they're thinking, 'if only I'd gotten the other one'

Where does free will come into that scenario you ask? Well imagine being limited to only one mobile phone (which is the polar opposite to the abundance of choices we have currenty) You have no choice, and that goes against what free will stands for! Like I said, it's something that you see/hear of regularly and has been happening for ages and the examples for scenarios of why free will doesn't exist are numerous.

I'll keep it short. Free will does not exist, but a free choice does exist.

Written by Bulletdodger on 12.04.2011 at 14:27

I'll keep it short. Free will does not exist, but a free choice does exist.

Free choice does exist, but exactly how much of the choice is actually the persons will? I heard a bit of philosophy once that I think applies to this situation. It goes like this: You can want what you will but you can't will what you will. Basically you want something that you want but you can't decide what you want. I may like apples and it this hypothetical situation I could want an apple. However, I cannot one day say to myself: I no longer like apples. I like pears. My brain doesn't work like that. Therefore you can want what you will, but you can't will what you will. With that bit of philosophy in mind I ask: How much of what we choose to do is really the mind tricking us into thinking we are obtaining what we truly desire?

Written by Hellhound on 13.04.2011 at 07:35

Free choice does exist, but exactly how much of the choice is actually the persons will? I heard a bit of philosophy once that I think applies to this situation. It goes like this: You can want what you will but you can't will what you will. Basically you want something that you want but you can't decide what you want. I may like apples and it this hypothetical situation I could want an apple. However, I cannot one day say to myself: I no longer like apples. I like pears. My brain doesn't work like that. Therefore you can want what you will, but you can't will what you will. With that bit of philosophy in mind I ask: How much of what we choose to do is really the mind tricking us into thinking we are obtaining what we truly desire?

Everything and nothing.

Looking at the grand picture, every choice we make is there to satisfy some of our basic desires, so in a way we are doomed to be slaves of our basic needs ( like all living beeings). The only way do be "free" is to have all your needs satisfied, or have no needs at all. But this is a bad definiton, because a person is not something static, so by satisfieng (or not satisfieing) our needs we change ourselves so sometimes the very things that brought us "freedem" enslave us (possesions, fame ,etc.). This all was a bit trivial, but I wrote to show that analysis of "free will" brings nothing, and the only thing worth questioning is the freedom of choice.

What is a free choice ? A choice independent from former affairs is impposible ( as we both said it), so we need to reconsider other options. If there is only one reaction to a situation there is no choice at all, so "choice" only exists when we have more options to react to prior events. And the best way to increase the number of possible "choices", or better possible reactions is to increase our knowlege of the concequences of our actions. Therefore , a choice is free when the person making the choice has knowlege of "all" possible outcomes. When we are reduced to the moment of making a choice, we are making our own freedom with the knowlege of ourselves and the concequences that our actions bring.

Either way, we are still "under will's command" so to say, but with the "free choice", or better said with the increase in the knowlege of our actions we produce more ways to satisfy our basic desires, so , we are not beeing "tricked, it's just the way that things get done

Written by Hellhound on 13.04.2011 at 07:35


Everything and nothing.

Looking at the grand picture, every choice we make is there to satisfy some of our basic desires, so in a way we are doomed to be slaves of our basic needs ( like all living beeings). The only way do be "free" is to have all your needs satisfied, or have no needs at all. But this is a bad definiton, because a person is not something static, so by satisfieng (or not satisfieing) our needs we change ourselves so sometimes the very things that brought us "freedem" enslave us (possesions, fame ,etc.). This all was a bit trivial, but I wrote to show that analysis of "free will" brings nothing, and the only thing worth questioning is the freedom of choice.

What is a free choice ? A choice independent from former affairs is impposible ( as we both said it), so we need to reconsider other options. If there is only one reaction to a situation there is no choice at all, so "choice" only exists when we have more options to react to prior events. And the best way to increase the number of possible "choices", or better possible reactions is to increase our knowlege of the concequences of our actions. Therefore , a choice is free when the person making the choice has knowlege of "all" possible outcomes. When we are reduced to the moment of making a choice, we are making our own freedom with the knowlege of ourselves and the concequences that our actions bring.

Either way, we are still "under will's command" so to say, but with the "free choice", or better said with the increase in the knowlege of our actions we produce more ways to satisfy our basic desires, so , we are not beeing "tricked, it's just the way that things get done

In essence I agree with you sir. I was merely trying to express a view of the topic that I found to be quite enlightening. I apologize for the lackluster reply, but I am finding it difficult to make verbose paragraphs and say that I pretty much agree with what you have said. People are slaves to their own minds and the choices they make aren't always ones that are completely born of their own mind. Our primal need and whatnot. However the final decision (if the decision is made under the guise of "free choice") is a product of our environment interpreted through the person's mind. Hell, I still managed to get a few unclear lofty sentences in there. I think its a job well done.

The freedom we have today is what we deserve for our facts performed during our history in consonance to the laws from the nature of this world/universe (plus the technology created for the human being successively), personally I believe in the negative and positive, there are positive things and negative things. Therefore, against this, the human being has tried to organize in one way or another, learning from the past successively, for better or for worse in the future (i don't know), and finally you get a particular organization, a certain order of things. It is a matter of organization, of order, at the end the human being can not to escape from order as a whole, can not escape from organization, the organization of things, so the human being needs to have an order, to be within an organized framework, this is the system, this is Matrix!! haha, this is the trend, and will continue in this way in the future.

Which ever theory is more useful, is the correct theory. (William of Occam had his razor, I have mine.)

Free will is only an illusion, we lost it long time ago. For example, in my country the kids are baptized 7 days after birth. In my opinion this is not fair, because the girl or the boy is somehow forced into Orthodox Christian denomination. I think that everyone should have the right to make his/her own choices..

Well yes, but still everyone is free to leave Christianity, etc. I know many kids here who had to go to church every week until their late teens, and it's God's will etc etc according to the parents.

Written by Yasmine on 08.05.2011 at 12:13

Well yes, but still everyone is free to leave Christianity, etc. I know many kids here who had to go to church every week until their late teens, and it's God's will etc etc according to the parents.

I agree with you, Yasmine, but i was talking about following the local customs just "because everyone does that".How about thinking for ourselves? How about learning to say "NO"?

See this film: It's a Free World... =)

Free will does exist if you're an atheist. LOL

but IMO, free will exists in a form of ILLUSION.

You can't choose to kill someone while choosing to be free from consequences at the same time.

You never have absolute freedom nor are you ever completely subjugated to someone else's will. Everyone is floating somewhere in between.

Lucifer said YES. I just finished a call with him on his hotline. Call 666

Written by 0rpheus on 03.06.2011 at 01:54

Lucifer said YES. I just finished a call with him on his hotline. Call 666

That was actually jesus on the other line.

Written by Guest on 03.06.2011 at 09:26

Written by 0rpheus on 03.06.2011 at 01:54

Lucifer said YES. I just finished a call with him on his hotline. Call 666

That was actually jesus on the other line.

Akh! I should have recorded that call! It'd included the answer of another question that I wanted to ask him.

SO what , free will is not exist because our desires are just influenced by others desires ,by our grinder type, communitty and genes , SO every thing we decide is always affected by other influences .

Weather or not we have free will depends on 3 main points in order to form a complete picture, as well as the power of introspection and reason. From this beginning, formulating an opinion on free will may be posible, but will ultimately depend on your individual opinion on these certain points.
1 - Spacetime, in particular the relation between the present and the future?
One opinion on spacetime will greatly affect the way free will is percieves in particular i'm talking about the future. Several models of the nature of spacetime, in particular what is the nation of time passing, what reality is. My view is that spacetime behaves much like a growing black as described by metaphysicists. Essentially that the present is both absolute, and the only reality (both of which depend on their realation to the properties of space). Essentially this means that the experience of time passing is relative to the standard rate of time passing with respect to the properties of space itself. The absolute present exists bassed on the properties of the universe (space). Note that this does not remove the posibility of localised warping of spacetime. This means that the past is the past, it has happened and once was reality and is not more, and the future has yet to occur therefore no fate exists unless god exists to interfere with it.

2 - Does god exist, and if so what is gods place in the universe with respect to the behavior of space and time?
Always a touchy subject no matter who you talk to, my opinion is that it doesn't matter. We exist, and we have the capacity to reason through emotions, morality and experience. The existance of god is metaphysical itself and therefore is not something we can truely know as a matter of 'fact'. But that is not necessarily relative to this arguement. If god does not exist then there is no problem, but is god does exist then only a certain type of god can exist the daistic god (Note this is a none secular judgement, and does not relate to religion itself, but purely the existance of a devine interferer. My opinion is that god doesn't matter on any account, the existance of a theistic god would undermine reality because of the capacity to interfer with how the world works and therefore nothing matters except for our own moral behavior (the question of morality is another debate altogether, and we'll skip that for now). Either way god doesn't matter unless a theoistic god exists, which coincidentally i believe that if god exists then it is not that. But that is purely my opinion.

3 - What does introspection and reason infer on actions/inactions
This relates to our intuitive reaction to the world around us, does fate exists? Think about it, i would argue that most people intuitively believe that there is in the very least no absolute fate, therefore implying at least some component of free-will. The arguement of genetics and influences telling us what to do implies that we do not have the power to recognise our own behavior. Of course it is much harder to do, and these things play a role in providing us with decisions to make. Either way, each reasoning being has the capacity to make decisions, the arguement of genetics and influences implies that we are incapable of reason at all. This frankly denies ones own intuitions and introspection. We know we can think, we know we can choose left or right, External factors of course influence which way we go, but they do not determine absolutely. The language itself demonstrates the difference 'influence to action' does not imply fatalism, 'destined to make this choice' does. To deny this will almost certainly be based on metaphysical arguements. Indeed my arguement is based largely on opinion, but it is a 'warrented' opinion based on reason and introspection.

We have free will only for our actions. We cannot change circumstances and consequences. That is all.

Written by snipo101 on 19.06.2011 at 17:59

We have free will only for our actions. We cannot change circumstances and consequences. That is all.

Consequences and circumstances may in fact direct our actions, if so free will in that sense is only limited. I would argue that the only thing we posses which is truly free is association with the will, is our intentions. Anything beyond this is not within our absolute control.

Written by Hellhound on 13.04.2011 at 07:35

Written by Bulletdodger on 12.04.2011 at 14:27

I'll keep it short. Free will does not exist, but a free choice does exist.

Free choice does exist, but exactly how much of the choice is actually the persons will?

Good point, I was about to say something like this.

Quote:
Does free will exist?

I don't think so.

How could it be exist while everyone will die eventually ? and how it does exist while everyone is walking toward his written fate and destiny whatever he tries to change it?

Written by XV535Virago on 08.05.2011 at 13:20

Written by Yasmine on 08.05.2011 at 12:13

Well yes, but still everyone is free to leave Christianity, etc. I know many kids here who had to go to church every week until their late teens, and it's God's will etc etc according to the parents.

I agree with you, Yasmine, but i was talking about following the local customs just "because everyone does that".How about thinking for ourselves? How about learning to say "NO"?

It seems that there is a misconception about Christianity everywhere in the churches around the world. A person can only be a Christian if they confess to be a sinner and acknowledge Jesus is Lord and died for their sins. Otherwise, people who don't do this or are just baptised are just members of a church, and not real Christians. Just wanted to point that out. Being a Christian is a decision nobody can make for anyone.



On the subject of free will: As a Christian, to me the only real choice we have is to follow Christ or not to follow Him. Christ calls man to give up everything they hold onto in this world and follow him. The only other option is not to. Whether you are a servant to food, music (yes music, even something I struggle with making sure it's not my top priority), drugs, sex, money mismanagement (buying every pair of shoes, every new style of clothes, the best cars, gambling, anything financial), hatred, etc, etc, etc, you are a servant to all those things. I would rather serve God than any of those things.