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Pioneers Of Power Metal



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Original post

Posted by Lord TJ, 01.11.2007 - 19:59
Im doing a senior project on metal, can somebody help me out and tell me who the pioneers of power metal are? Thanks!
13.04.2012 - 00:43
chronic-headache

I would say bands that helped pioneer the genre would be Helloween (big time), Iron Maiden, Stratovarius, Blind Guardian, Rhapsody (helped start the branch of symphonic epic power metal, but IDK if they could be counted as a pioneer)
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13.04.2012 - 09:21
bran

I think rainbow was the band that really kicked it off IMO i mean kill the king,gates of babylon,stargazer etc are pretty much the foundation of power metal
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top 5 albums of 2012 so far.

1. wintersun- time I
2. woods of ypres- woods V grey skies and electric light
3. agalloch- faustian echoes EP
4. the slow death- II
5. kreator- phantom antichrist
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17.04.2012 - 04:35
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck
Written by bran on 13.04.2012 at 09:21

I think rainbow was the band that really kicked it off IMO i mean kill the king,gates of babylon,stargazer etc are pretty much the foundation of power metal


Of course they are the band that pioneered it. I still find it baffling that some people here posting in this thread are trying to deny that,
----
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Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

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17.04.2012 - 07:51
bran

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.04.2012 at 04:35

Written by bran on 13.04.2012 at 09:21

I think rainbow was the band that really kicked it off IMO i mean kill the king,gates of babylon,stargazer etc are pretty much the foundation of power metal


Of course they are the band that pioneered it. I still find it baffling that some people here posting in this thread are trying to deny that,


i know it is kind of baffling
----
top 5 albums of 2012 so far.

1. wintersun- time I
2. woods of ypres- woods V grey skies and electric light
3. agalloch- faustian echoes EP
4. the slow death- II
5. kreator- phantom antichrist
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21.04.2012 - 04:47
bj_waters

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.04.2012 at 04:35

Written by bran on 13.04.2012 at 09:21

I think rainbow was the band that really kicked it off IMO i mean kill the king,gates of babylon,stargazer etc are pretty much the foundation of power metal


Of course they are the band that pioneered it. I still find it baffling that some people here posting in this thread are trying to deny that,


Actually, I'd kind of like to see how you two really qualify that idea. I mean, did Rainbow really "pioneer" power metal, and if so, how? There certainly is no doubt that Rainbow and Dio's other work were an inspiration, but to actually say "pioneer" is another idea altogether.

Now, I'll admit that I've already posted in this thread, stating that Helloween is (IMO) the first power metal band, the guys who pioneered the sound that became power metal (a fusion of thrash and Iron Maiden, really). However, for what it's worth, I decided to listen to Rainbow's first three albums (which include the aforementioned songs) before I responded to your posts, and I admit I had a hard time even considering them heavy metal (though I can see them as a bridge between Led Zeppelin and NWOBHM).

I know that a lot of this is just a matter of personal taste and semantics, but I'm pretty adamant that a metal genre (and all music, really) should be defined by the sounds and musical theory it uses, not by things like content or lyrics. Some people (read: Sam Dunn) state that Rainbow is power metal because they were one of the first hard rock bands to have overtly fantasy-like lyrics, but I don't think that's good enough. I believe that if a band has death metal riffs and rhythms with death metal vocals, it's death metal, regardless if the lyrics are about decapitation or Hello Kitty. And just because Rainbow's songs are big and epic doesn't necessarily make them power metal either.

Let me say that I'm not calling Rainbow a bad band and I'm certainly not debating their influence, but I really want to come down on the difference between "inspiration" and "pioneer." Saying that Rainbow "pioneered" power metal is like saying Discharge and Diamond Head "pioneered" thrash, or Metallica "pioneered" death metal, or Deep Purple "pioneered" NWOBHM. You can see the connections, but it feels a bit off or overreaching (in my opinion, anyway).

So, now that I've given my reasons why I think Rainbow isn't Power Metal (let alone a pioneer), what makes you guys say that Rainbow IS such a pioneer?
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21.04.2012 - 05:40
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist
Written by bj_waters on 21.04.2012 at 04:47
Some people (read: Sam Dunn) state that Rainbow is power metal because they were one of the first hard rock bands to have overtly fantasy-like lyrics, but I don't think that's good enough. I believe that if a band has death metal riffs and rhythms with death metal vocals, it's death metal, regardless if the lyrics are about decapitation or Hello Kitty

Agree completely with this. Pretty much why I dislike goregrind and pornogrind as genres... they're just grindcore with gore- or porn-themed lyrics, but still musically grindcore.

Same rule applies to people trying to label Amon Amarth as viking metal because they sing about Vikings.
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."
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21.04.2012 - 06:44
Boxcar Willy
yr a kook
*cough* Thread from 2007 *cough*
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14:22 - Marcel Hubregtse
I do your mum

DESTROY DRUM TRIGGERS
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21.04.2012 - 06:50
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist
Written by Boxcar Willy on 21.04.2012 at 06:44
*cough* Thread from 2007 *cough*

One of many. Do you have a rule against posting in old threads?
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."
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21.04.2012 - 06:53
Boxcar Willy
yr a kook
Written by Troy Killjoy on 21.04.2012 at 06:50

Written by Boxcar Willy on 21.04.2012 at 06:44
*cough* Thread from 2007 *cough*

One of many. Do you have a rule against posting in old threads?

Not at all, I just find it funny that he asked for this info, when he was in high school 5 years ago.

Anyway I don't know a helluva lot about power metal so I'm just going to leave now.

kthxbai
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14:22 - Marcel Hubregtse
I do your mum

DESTROY DRUM TRIGGERS
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21.04.2012 - 08:04
Cynic Metalhead
Paisa Vich Nasha
Every guy who whack his post no matter what knows that Manowar are the pioneers of Power Metal and still they don't post it to get bashed arbitrary.
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21.04.2012 - 16:25
R'Vannith
ghedengi
Written by bj_waters on 21.04.2012 at 04:47

So, now that I've given my reasons why I think Rainbow isn't Power Metal (let alone a pioneer), what makes you guys say that Rainbow IS such a pioneer?


At the end of the day I don't think you can sit down and definitively pinpoint the exact origins of music of any kind. You can refer to various possibilities which may have led to the development of a genre.

As for your question, I don't think Rainbow is Power metal at all. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't have some sort of influence on the genre in its emergence. When you identify particular bands which were first identified as Power metal, such as Helloween, most likely they would have heard of Rainbow. To what extent Helloween implemented what they found in Rainbow's music is not only difficult for the listener to identify, but I daresay even for the bands themselves.

Now whether this influence amounts to "pioneering" isn't exactly a simple question to answer, and in some cases its not as simple to disprove either. It's an ongoing discussion I suppose, as it would be in many cases of identifying genre origins. Music often as straightforward and clear cut as we imagine it is, there are many blurred lines given the sheer size of its scope, even narrowing things down to a particular genre doesn't guarantee you at all to find absolutely certain answers or parameters.
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27.04.2012 - 10:25
bran

I just think rainbow layed down the foundation that every other power metal band would use the lyrics and the imagery. kill the king is a perfect example of a song that really is the proto type power metal song.
----
top 5 albums of 2012 so far.

1. wintersun- time I
2. woods of ypres- woods V grey skies and electric light
3. agalloch- faustian echoes EP
4. the slow death- II
5. kreator- phantom antichrist
Loading...
28.04.2012 - 02:48
bj_waters

Written by R'Vannith on 21.04.2012 at 16:25

At the end of the day I don't think you can sit down and definitively pinpoint the exact origins of music of any kind. You can refer to various possibilities which may have led to the development of a genre.

As for your question, I don't think Rainbow is Power metal at all. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't have some sort of influence on the genre in its emergence. When you identify particular bands which were first identified as Power metal, such as Helloween, most likely they would have heard of Rainbow. To what extent Helloween implemented what they found in Rainbow's music is not only difficult for the listener to identify, but I daresay even for the bands themselves.

Now whether this influence amounts to "pioneering" isn't exactly a simple question to answer, and in some cases its not as simple to disprove either. It's an ongoing discussion I suppose, as it would be in many cases of identifying genre origins. Music often as straightforward and clear cut as we imagine it is, there are many blurred lines given the sheer size of its scope, even narrowing things down to a particular genre doesn't guarantee you at all to find absolutely certain answers or parameters.


I've already admitted that musical definitions can be very personal and drawn on semantics, but I still think that definite origins can be determined, like Metallica is the origin of Thrash Metal. Of course, such origins are defined by rules, so if my rule is that power metal is stuff like Stratovarius, DragonForce, and Hammerfall, then it makes sense that Helloween is going to be my originator. I know that Helloween is often credited for being the pioneer of European or melodic power metal, but I find that I have a hard time accepting anything else as power metal. For example:

Written by Cynic Metalhead on 21.04.2012 at 08:04

Every guy who whack his post no matter what knows that Manowar are the pioneers of Power Metal and still they don't post it to get bashed arbitrary.


Manowar is a band that quite often gets mentioned as a "pioneer" of power metal, but what did they do, exactly, that leads to power metal? I've listened to the first handful of Manowar albums and all I hear is an American Judas Priest. Is Judas Priest power metal? (@Sam Dunn: NO! (I know he changed it later.)) The same could be said for a lot of other so-called "power metal" bands. Accept? German Judas Priest. Scorpions? German Deep Purple/Rainbow. Malmsteen? Iron Maiden with more noodly leads. This is why I think that Helloween really were doing something different: they were taking the intensity of thrash metal and adding the upbeat and melodic nature of NWOBHM (especially Iron Maiden). I really feel like this is something that can be analyzed and determined and not just simply be opinions (though I won't deny that this is still very opinionated).

Again, I'm not denying these band's influences. I'm certain that we wouldn't have Helloween and the rest of power metal without Rainbow, Manowar, Accept, and Malmsteen, but calling them power metal when they still sound so much like traditional heavy metal seems so inconsistent and vague, as if no one really knows what power metal is (and I'm saying that we do).

Written by bran on 27.04.2012 at 10:25

I just think rainbow layed down the foundation that every other power metal band would use the lyrics and the imagery. kill the king is a perfect example of a song that really is the proto type power metal song.


While I'm not debating Rainbow's direct influence (Stratovarius has a live cover of the song on their Intermission compilation), I just don't think it's a good enough reason to call Rainbow a "pioneer" of power metal. It's like saying Led Zeppelin is a "pioneer" of viking metal because they "laid the foundation" with "The Immigrant Song." There were lots of other bands that had fantasy lyrics and epic sounds (prog rock, anyone?), Rainbow just ended up being the one that power metal bands later covered and mentioned as an influence.
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20.11.2012 - 13:22
Aristarchos

Nobody mentioned Uriah Heep yet? They weren't exactly power metal, but they definitely had a big influence on the genre, and were earlier than Rainbow. Many power metal bands have mentioned them as a big influence and have covered them. Just listen to songs like "Pilgrim" and "Return To Fantasy".

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21.11.2012 - 21:29
Bad English
Tage Westerlund
Written by Aristarchos on 20.11.2012 at 13:22

Nobody mentioned Uriah Heep yet? They weren't exactly power metal, but they definitely had a big influence on the genre, and were earlier than Rainbow. Many power metal bands have mentioned them as a big influence and have covered them. Just listen to songs like "Pilgrim" and "Return To Fantasy".


Interesting point, they were(is special band, quate unique, I cant remeber band name but I saw once live on TV they were like wizards on stage .... damn it was popular band, well know inm underground. damn cant remeber they us eto have one hit what was often on VH1

Eddit band calls Wizzard - they could be also pioneers
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24.11.2012 - 19:15
Guib
Thrash Talker
I don't know what people are talking about but eh... Rainbow is definitely a pioneer in Power Metal.. Musically and Lyrically. how can one deny that ? And then, it would be Helloween.
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- Headbanging with mostly clogged arteries to that stuff -
Guib's List Of Essential Albums
- Also Thrash Paradise
Thrash Here
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24.11.2012 - 20:21
Bad English
Tage Westerlund
Written by Guib on 24.11.2012 at 19:15

I don't know what people are talking about but eh... Rainbow is definitely a pioneer in Power Metal.. Musically and Lyrically. how can one deny that ? And then, it would be Helloween.


musicaly Dio era albums dont sounds like chease .... its more HM how flower if we talk about sound ,
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Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''
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24.11.2012 - 20:26
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck
If people start mentioning Uriah Heep as pioneers of peower metal one might just as well mention Deep Purple as such. Extremely far-fetched to call either a pioneer fo PM
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

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24.11.2012 - 20:45
bj_waters

Written by Guib on 24.11.2012 at 19:15

I don't know what people are talking about but eh... Rainbow is definitely a pioneer in Power Metal.. Musically and Lyrically. how can one deny that ? And then, it would be Helloween.


As I've stated previously in this thread, there needs to be a line between INSPIRATION and PIONEER. I don't consider Rainbow a pioneer because they weren't playing anything like the power metal we have today (I think of it as half-way between Led Zeppelin and Judas Priest). However, I can't deny that Rainbow is an INSPIRATION for the power metal bands that came later. For me, Helloween was the first PIONEER of power metal because they were the first to combine the speed of thrash with the melodies of Iron Maiden.

I know that I'm being limiting by insisting that European Power Metal is the only Power Metal, but I feel that it sounds distinctly different from Heavy Metal (which is where I put Rainbow, Dio, Manowar, Accept, etc.).

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 24.11.2012 at 20:26

If people start mentioning Uriah Heep as pioneers of peower metal one might just as well mention Deep Purple as such. Extremely far-fetched to call either a pioneer fo PM


Aristarchos only mentioned them as an influence, which could also be said for Deep Purple. Don't get me wrong, all of these bands are important for shaping the sound of Power Metal. I just think they should be labelled as "inspirations" and not "pioneers" like Helloween, Blind Guardian, Stratovarius, etc.
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29.11.2012 - 19:10
Patrick.

If we draw a clear line between European Power and American Power, then it sure looks like the first three Helloween albums is the foundation, or at least an important part of it, of the European style. If the real and true Power Metal sits right in the middle of Heavy Metal and Thrash Metal (many people feel this way), then I think it's fair to consider Helloween, Blind Guardian, Stratovarius, Gamma Ray, etc to be among the foundation of the European style, which is noticeably more uplifting and melodic overall than the American style right? If we go by these "rules" then Rainbow and even Iron Maiden is not within that genre, even though there are definite similarities as well as influences to be seen, as in lyrical content and atmosphere and such.

I fully agree with bj_waters in this, even though I do not claim to be any kind of expert or enclyclopaedia on the matter. Though I don't really like to be nazi on genres and usually find these word-wars back and forth regarding this a bit silly, I still think there should be a reason for why a particular band is called Heavy, Power or Thrash, etc.
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08.12.2012 - 00:20
Delvestius

I'd give Rainbow the title of greatest power-metal "inspirerer". Pioneers, I'd say Helloween, Blind Guardian and Stratovarious. In America, Manowar really kicked it off.
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31.12.2012 - 21:59
Aristarchos

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 24.11.2012 at 20:26

If people start mentioning Uriah Heep as pioneers of peower metal one might just as well mention Deep Purple as such. Extremely far-fetched to call either a pioneer fo PM

I think Uriah Heep has a sound closer to power metal than Deep Purple has, and they also had the fantasy lyrics. Demons And Wizards even took their name from a Uriah Heep album. Both Blind Guardian and Gamma Ray have covered Uriah Heep songs, and both bands mention Uriah Heep as one of their main influences. But of course Deep Purple had an influence on power metal too, especially their song "Highway Star", which sometimes is called the first speed metal song, and contains a classically-influenced solo.
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12.01.2013 - 15:06
Bad English
Tage Westerlund
Written by Aristarchos on 31.12.2012 at 21:59

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 24.11.2012 at 20:26

If people start mentioning Uriah Heep as pioneers of peower metal one might just as well mention Deep Purple as such. Extremely far-fetched to call either a pioneer fo PM

I think Uriah Heep has a sound closer to power metal than Deep Purple has, and they also had the fantasy lyrics. Demons And Wizards even took their name from a Uriah Heep album. Both Blind Guardian and Gamma Ray have covered Uriah Heep songs, and both bands mention Uriah Heep as one of their main influences. But of course Deep Purple had an influence on power metal too, especially their song "Highway Star", which sometimes is called the first speed metal song, and contains a classically-influenced solo.


lyrics is nothing to do whit power metal, flower metal is muisc and melody not lyrics, black metal band and death metal can sing about dragons and still be in style
melody make style not lyrics

@those who talk about Stratovarius --- have you ever have herad Fight Night?
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12.01.2013 - 21:13
bj_waters

Written by Bad English on 12.01.2013 at 15:06

@those who talk about Stratovarius --- have you ever have herad Fight Night?


Yyyyyyeeeeeeeessssssssss? I'm assuming Fright Night (I have to admit I have hard time reading some your posts, Bad English), but I'm not sure what you're getting at. I would consider the song to be early power metal, mostly because it reminds me so much of Helloween's "Halloween" that I don't think it's a coincidence (I think I posted elsewhere that I think all Tolkki listens to is Kai-Hansen-era Helloween, Iron Maiden, and Malmsteen).
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12.01.2013 - 21:21
Bad English
Tage Westerlund
Written by bj_waters on 12.01.2013 at 21:13

Written by Bad English on 12.01.2013 at 15:06

@those who talk about Stratovarius --- have you ever have herad Fight Night?


Yyyyyyeeeeeeeessssssssss? I'm assuming Fright Night (I have to admit I have hard time reading some your posts, Bad English), but I'm not sure what you're getting at. I would consider the song to be early power metal, mostly because it reminds me so much of Helloween's "Halloween" that I don't think it's a coincidence (I think I posted elsewhere that I think all Tolkki listens to is Kai-Hansen-era Helloween, Iron Maiden, and Malmsteen).


I wish Richard was here once he said something when guy tray put Iron maiden to flower
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09.08.2016 - 23:32
ERhapsody44

In my opinion Riot started power metal in the united states. from their debut songs like warrior would of been the prototype of power metal and then their Manilla Road and rainbow with their lyrics
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26.03.2017 - 08:28
Winter Heathen

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 17.04.2012 at 04:35

Written by bran on 13.04.2012 at 09:21

I think rainbow was the band that really kicked it off IMO i mean kill the king,gates of babylon,stargazer etc are pretty much the foundation of power metal


Of course they are the band that pioneered it. I still find it baffling that some people here posting in this thread are trying to deny that,

I am sorry for joining this thread so late, I just started getting to use this site.

Ronnie James Dio was the biggest catalyst for starting power metal due to lyrical content, but everyone conveniently forgets the guitars, and that's where Judas Priest and Accept come in. Power Metal, aside from the singing, is usually also associated with speedy, melodic, and stellar guitar playing, usually involving harmonies and multiple layers of guitars. Guitar symphonies, in other words
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Power metal incarnate.
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26.03.2017 - 20:20
bj_waters

Written by Winter Heathen on 26.03.2017 at 08:28

I am sorry for joining this thread so late, I just started getting to use this site.

Ronnie James Dio was the biggest catalyst for starting power metal due to lyrical content, but everyone conveniently forgets the guitars, and that's where Judas Priest and Accept come in. Power Metal, aside from the singing, is usually also associated with speedy, melodic, and stellar guitar playing, usually involving harmonies and multiple layers of guitars. Guitar symphonies, in other words


First of all, welcome to the site! We can be pretty opinionated around here, but it all comes from a love for this music.

I don't know if you've read the entire thread (and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't), but I think I mentioned earlier that there should be a distinction between "influence" and "pioneer." I would certainly consider Dio, Judas Priest, and Accept as influences, but not really pioneers for the power metal genre. It would be like saying Motorhead, Venom, and Discharged are pioneers of Thrash Metal. You can see the relationship, but calling them pioneers is too much of a stretch.

This is why I think identifying pioneers should be focused on the bands that helped develop the sound into a genre, and for Power Metal, I'd pick Helloween, Gamma Ray, Stratovarius, and Blind Guardian (with HammerFall being the catalyst for the second wave of bands). Were these bands borrowing ideas from Dio, Priest, and Accept? Certainly, but they were also borrowing speed, techniques, and intensity from Thrash Metal as well. Most subgenres come from mixing a few different things together to create something new.

That being said, I recognize that defining who is what to Power Metal is largely subjective and that people are going to come up with their own answers (much like trying to define metal as a whole!). I can be pretty adamant about my particular definitions and be able to make logical arguments about them, but I certainly don't think that my definitions can (or even should) be considered the final say on these topics (despite how passionate I may have argued in the past).
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27.03.2017 - 05:23
Winter Heathen

Written by bj_waters on 26.03.2017 at 20:20

Written by Winter Heathen on 26.03.2017 at 08:28

I am sorry for joining this thread so late, I just started getting to use this site.

Ronnie James Dio was the biggest catalyst for starting power metal due to lyrical content, but everyone conveniently forgets the guitars, and that's where Judas Priest and Accept come in. Power Metal, aside from the singing, is usually also associated with speedy, melodic, and stellar guitar playing, usually involving harmonies and multiple layers of guitars. Guitar symphonies, in other words


First of all, welcome to the site! We can be pretty opinionated around here, but it all comes from a love for this music.

I don't know if you've read the entire thread (and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't), but I think I mentioned earlier that there should be a distinction between "influence" and "pioneer." I would certainly consider Dio, Judas Priest, and Accept as influences, but not really pioneers for the power metal genre. It would be like saying Motorhead, Venom, and Discharged are pioneers of Thrash Metal. You can see the relationship, but calling them pioneers is too much of a stretch.

This is why I think identifying pioneers should be focused on the bands that helped develop the sound into a genre, and for Power Metal, I'd pick Helloween, Gamma Ray, Stratovarius, and Blind Guardian (with HammerFall being the catalyst for the second wave of bands). Were these bands borrowing ideas from Dio, Priest, and Accept? Certainly, but they were also borrowing speed, techniques, and intensity from Thrash Metal as well. Most subgenres come from mixing a few different things together to create something new.

That being said, I recognize that defining who is what to Power Metal is largely subjective and that people are going to come up with their own answers (much like trying to define metal as a whole!). I can be pretty adamant about my particular definitions and be able to make logical arguments about them, but I certainly don't think that my definitions can (or even should) be considered the final say on these topics (despite how passionate I may have argued in the past).

*Edited Twice*
I get this, and thanks for the welcome! I feel late to it lol.

I never went through the whole thread... it looks a bit long. I skimmed to somewhere where someone said what the influencers of Power Metal were, not pioneers, so I just assumed the thread had moved to influences on the genre.

If I had to name pioneers, I would say Helloween, Running Wild, and Grave Digger were the primary bands to create the genre. Yngwie Malmsteen was either an influence or a pioneer, though I can never tell. He sort of draws the line between the two. Ah! I've got it. Accept, Judas Priest, and Yngwie Malmsteen were the biggest influences on Power Metal guitar. The pioneers (or, in my opinion, the ones I named) are Running Wild, Helloween, and Grave Digger.

HammerFall was the catalyst for the second wave of Power Metal. I would also put Stratovarius here, for the reason being that their first album came incredibly late in the development of the first wave of the genre (1989).

Second Edit: I made a year mistake... The first wave of Power Metal starts in the early to mid 1980's and ends in 1989. The second wave starts with HammerFall, like you said. Oops.
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Power metal incarnate.
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