Written by Angelic Storm on 30.10.2011 at 23:32

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2011 at 20:10
This is about pioneering, so Manowar can be named here just as Rainbow, even though they aren't power metal they did influence and more o less pioneered power metal.

By that token, you may as well call Judas Priest and Iron Maiden power metal pioneers, as I think these 2 bands more than any other, were the biggest influences on early power metal bands. Both bands also contain more power metal elements than Manowar. You could argue that their cheesiness was adopted by many PM bands, but even then, I think that's going a bit far. As cheesy as a lot of power metal is, Manowar are in a different league where that's concerned to most other bands.

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Iron Maiden not so much IMO but certainly Judas Priest.

As for cheesy. Japanes power metal bands atre a 1000% chessier than Manowar, just check ut the Japanese Power Metal for that

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2011 at 23:37
Iron Maiden not so much IMO but certainly Judas Priest.

As for cheesy. Japanes power metal bands atre a 1000% chessier than Manowar, just check ut the Japanese Power Metal for that

Well, if you listen to the very early Helloween, the Maiden influence is clear to see. In particular, "Phantoms Of Death" not only features a main riff that sounds very like "2 Minutes To Midnight", but also very Maiden-esque harmonies during it's solo section.

I won't pretend I know many Japanese power metal bands, but the ones I have seen are not more cheesier than Manowar, much less 1000% so. And even the ones that are very cheesy, it's probably merely in a different way, rather than it being more so. Certainly from my perspective, Manowar are the epitome of cheese in metal...

Written by Angelic Storm on 30.10.2011 at 23:47

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2011 at 23:37
Iron Maiden not so much IMO but certainly Judas Priest.

As for cheesy. Japanes power metal bands atre a 1000% chessier than Manowar, just check ut the Japanese Power Metal for that

Well, if you listen to the very early Helloween, the Maiden influence is clear to see. In particular, "Phantoms Of Death" not only features a main riff that sounds very like "2 Minutes To Midnight", but also very Maiden-esque harmonies during it's solo section.

I won't pretend I know many Japanese power metal bands, but the ones I have seen are not more cheesier than Manowar, much less 1000% so. And even the ones that are very cheesy, it's probably merely in a different way, rather than it being more so. Certainly from my perspective, Manowar are the epitome of cheese in metal...

when e keyboards in the foreground for the entire duration fo the song and most of it sounds even totally pop and more sugary than Hysteria by Def Leppard than it surely is cheesier than Manowar

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.10.2011 at 23:50
when e keyboards in the foreground for the entire duration fo the song and most of it sounds even totally pop and more sugary than Hysteria by Def Leppard than it surely is cheesier than Manowar

If it sounds totally pop and more sugary than "Hysteria", then it can't really be called metal, can it? "Hysteria" even, has hardly any real hard rock edge, (let alone metal) with it's overtly poppy production. "Pyromania" was the last album that contained any traces of their hard rocking roots. Besides, with Manowar's cheesiness, it's mainly in their image and lyrics, which lets face it, is about as cheesy as it's possible to get! Rhapsody (of fire) have absolutely nothing on Manowar in that department...

Written by Angelic Storm on 30.10.2011 at 23:59

...is about as cheesy as it's possible to get! Rhapsody (of fire) have absolutely nothing on Manowar in that department...

imo Rhapsody even surpasses it due to their dragons and damsels in distress type of lyrics.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 31.10.2011 at 00:02
imo Rhapsody even surpasses it due to their dragons and damsels in distress type of lyrics.

Well, that's entirely subjective, and I definitely don't agree. But then, I'm a bit of a geek, which is maybe why... I dunno, when I think of all the very cheesy, stereotypical, aspects of metal (certainly from an outsiders point of view), Manowar are the ultimate embodiment of that. A bit like Spinal Tap, except that Manowar aren't meant to be a parody band.

Written by Angelic Storm on 30.10.2011 at 23:47

Certainly from my perspective, Manowar are the epitome of cheese in metal...

There's nothing cheesier than Manowar in metal.
And I agree on Manowar being more cheesy than Rhapsody.
Manowar is also among the shittiest bands out there.

This thread came to my attention today and I thought I'd give me thoughts ("how nice of me!").

I would want to separate influences from pioneers. Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, and the rest of NWOBHM are definitely influences, as well as the growing thrash metal scene. I know I said as much on the "Big 4 of Power Metal" thread, but I go for Helloween, Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, and Stratovarius as the big players, mostly there were doing something like power metal in the 80s (especially Helloween). However, I've been under the impression that Power Metal really wasn't a thing until the 90s. Glam and Pop Metal dominated in the 80s with Thrash really growing by the end of the decade, but in 1991, with Nirvana and the advent of alternative rock, most of metal took a major hit (death and black didn't really care). It wasn't until Helloween dropped Kiske for Deris and Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, and Stratvarius began to really finalize their sounds by 1995-96 that power metal really took off and a ton of second wave bands followed up (Edguy, HammerFall, Rhapsody, Nightwish, etc.). In fact, I'm under the impression that Power Metal was incredible popular (like in a mainstream way) in Europe in the late 90s, which lead to a lot of people being pretty sick of it by 2003-04. Lately, a lot of power metal has been veering into gothic metal territory (Kamelot, Nightwish) or going for a more 80s hard rock flavor (Edugy, Power Quest).

In any case, after my Big 4, other pioneers of heavy metal should include instigators of the various cross-overs and fusions like symphonic power (Nightwish, Rhapsody), extreme power (Children of Bodom), power/thrash (Iced Earth, Mystic Prophecy), progressive power (Angra, Symphony X), or even power doom (While Heaven Wept). {For the record, I don't know of the bands of this paragraph were necessarily the innovators in their particular fusion genre; they're there for the sake of reference.} US Power Metal is a different kettle of fish (who keeps fish in a kettle?), one that I don't understand very well, so I can't really weigh in on that.

As for the cheesiness argument, I'd say that Rhapsody is worse than Manowar. Manowar (though not power at all) has something about them that makes me really enjoy their bombastic style. I know they're over-the-top, but in a way that makes sense. As for Rhapsody, all I have to do is reference the dialogue smack dab in the middle of "Sacred Power of Raging Winds." Every time I listen to that exchange, I can't take it seriously, even on a fun level. It's so turgidly melodramatic, it makes Flash Gordon serials sound like Oscar Material and Star Wars sound like Shakespeare. Don't get me wrong, Rhapsody is great power metal, but sometimes it gets to be too much (in my opinion).

Nope... Manowar is definitely more cheesy than Rhapsody.

That is all.

That photo is disturbing

Helloween and Blind Guardian

Written by nana.MD on 10.11.2011 at 06:40

That photo is disturbing

c mon those guys are so hot ROLF but serously you're 1th girl who says so
I agree its sortha idol how men shood look like for idol big trained mussles, chest mussles no hair on chests and so on, ehhhh same like girls whit biog fake boobs what is holywood trick same manowar is baywatch for girls

Written by Bad English on 10.11.2011 at 15:55
c mon those guys are so hot ROLF but serously you're 1th girl who says so
I agree its sortha idol how men shood look like for idol big trained mussles, chest mussles no hair on chests and so on, ehhhh same like girls whit biog fake boobs what is holywood trick same manowar is baywatch for girls

If she's the first girl to say so, then I'm the second... The guys in Manowar definitely aren't hot, they look ridiculous, and like they are trying too hard to impress females with that look, that they just come off looking like a parody. Anyways, I'd take brains and sense of humour over muscles any day.

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.11.2011 at 21:13
I'd take brains and sense of humour over muscles any day.

So you're saying I have a chance.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.11.2011 at 21:20
So you're saying I have a chance.

Would you want one? You're not that desperate...

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.11.2011 at 21:29
Would you want one? You're not that desperate...

You live in the UK so you must have a sexy English accent.

Written by Angelic Storm on 10.11.2011 at 21:13

Written by Bad English on 10.11.2011 at 15:55
c mon those guys are so hot ROLF but serously you're 1th girl who says so
I agree its sortha idol how men shood look like for idol big trained mussles, chest mussles no hair on chests and so on, ehhhh same like girls whit biog fake boobs what is holywood trick same manowar is baywatch for girls

If she's the first girl to say so, then I'm the second... The guys in Manowar definitely aren't hot, they look ridiculous, and like they are trying too hard to impress females with that look, that they just come off looking like a parody. Anyways, I'd take brains and sense of humour over muscles any day.

it was like in film Dutchball where that forgot his name has big penis, what he pump up whit air
Yes Manowar guys looks rediciluss, shame many guys wanna be like their and girs like it

Written by Bad English on 10.11.2011 at 21:49
it was like in film Dutchball where that forgot his name has big penis, what he pump up whit air
Yes Manowar guys looks rediciluss, shame many guys wanna be like their and girs like it

I've never seen that film... which by the sounds of it, is very lucky for me!

Ah well, I'm sure that some girls do like it, but all brawn and no brain doesn't really do it for me... lol

@Troy: I actually live in Scotland, though I am half English. (On my mother's side)

Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.11.2011 at 00:28


That is all.

I understand the point that you're trying to make and that it really all comes down to personal semantics, but I don't find that picture all that cheesy. I'd rather watch them play in those costumes and watch KISS (never saw the appeal in those costumes). Personally, I think it's pretty fitting. Metal of the '80s was about trying to look like their music. Sure, you had all of the glam metal, but Judas Priest and Iron Maiden are just as "guilty" for looking "metal." I would even extend that to thrash to a certain degree, and certainly black metal does it. Whenever I listen to Manowar, I think of Conan the Barbarian/sword-and-sorcery kind of stuff, so I think it fits them well. Do they look ridiculous? Sure, but there's been far more ridiculous and cheesy costumed bands (KISS, Gwar, Lordi, etc.).

I admit I generally try to not judge music by how the musicians look, and I haven't seen the guys in Rhapsody of Fire, so I tend to only judge cheesiness by the music. But I think if Rhapsody were to try and "show" their music, you'd end up with multiple 50 foot mechanical puppet monstrosities try to act out the events of their songs like a giant's puppet opera. And that's cheesier than a group of guys showing their chest hair around pieces of leather.

Written by bj_waters on 10.11.2011 at 23:24
And that's cheesier than a group of guys showing their chest hair around pieces of leather.

I'm just saying when you accompany their music with that image... It doesn't get much cheesier than that.

Manowar is manlier than any of you will ever be. However, on another note, I've heard that Helloween is actually not as influential as they are made out to be; that there are plenty of earlier bands playing in a similar style. Is this true or just people onthe internet trying to downplay an important band?

Written by Guest on 11.11.2011 at 06:48

Manowar is manlier than any of you will ever be. However, on another note, I've heard that Helloween is actually not as influential as they are made out to be; that there are plenty of earlier bands playing in a similar style. Is this true or just people onthe internet trying to downplay an important band?

Helloween are the pioneers of EURO power metal...The US was kicking out great PM years before Keeper was released. Go listen to Omen's debut!

Written by Guest on 11.11.2011 at 06:48
However, on another note, I've heard that Helloween is actually not as influential as they are made out to be; that there are plenty of earlier bands playing in a similar style. Is this true or just people onthe internet trying to downplay an important band?

Elements of what Helloween did on their debut EP and album had of course been done by other bands before. But they took those elements, and made something truly unique out of it. I certainly have never heard a band who was playing that exact style before Helloween. So yes, I think they do deserve much of the credit for kickstarting that style. The poster above me is kinda right, though it wasn't the Keepers that started that style, it was their earlier stuff.

@Troy: Exactly. It isn't just Manowar's music that makes them so cheesy, and it's not just the image. Its the combination of the two (plus their general attitude) that makes them so cheesy. And by far, more cheesy than Rhapsody.

Written by Angelic Storm on 11.11.2011 at 09:49

it wasn't the Keepers that started that style, it was their earlier stuff.

I can sort of agree with that... Their debut EP and Jericho were very US power and thrashy-styled...I'm def. one to argue that the true euro power movement didn't start until Keeper....hints of it were on their previous records.

Written by JÄY on 13.11.2011 at 07:23
I can sort of agree with that... Their debut EP and Jericho were very US power and thrashy-styled...I'm def. one to argue that the true euro power movement didn't start until Keeper....hints of it were on their previous records.

The first EP and Walls... are more melodic than US power, but were more aggressive than the stuff they did from the Keepers onwards. Helloween's early material was certainly unique, as no band had ever combined speed with melody and aggression in quite the same way that they did back then.

Written by Angelic Storm on 13.11.2011 at 14:04

The first EP and Walls... are more melodic than US power, but were more aggressive than the stuff they did from the Keepers onwards. Helloween's early material was certainly unique, as no band had ever combined speed with melody and aggression in quite the same way that they did back then.

Early Blind Guardian did the same but it came after.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 10.11.2011 at 23:44

I'm just saying when you accompany their music with that image... It doesn't get much cheesier than that.

And I'm saying that when I listen to their music and think what they would look like on stage, stuff like that image comes to mind. You're saying that the cheesiness somehow stacks (like 1 + 1 = 2), but I'm saying that it overlaps (1 x 1 = 1), thus not making it all that cheesy (to me). I guess my thinking is that if I were born about fifteen years earlier and I heard Manowar's music and decided to go see a show, I would not be surprised to see them dressed like what's shown above. I would have thought that it totally fit and I would have loved it. But I'm kind of saying (assuming) that that kind of thing was more acceptable in the 80s. Sure, looking back on it now may seem ridiculous (hindsight is 20/20, etc.), and anyone trying to do that now might be laughed off the stage if they didn't have 30 years of history first (unless it's black metal). I will admit that this is my opinion and one's cheddar is another's limburger, but I consider Manowar to be a nice cheddar next to what I call limburger (KISS, Gwar, the dialogue of Rhapsody of Fire).

Written by RavenKing on 13.11.2011 at 18:19
Early Blind Guardian did the same but it came after.

Exactly. Early Blind Guardian has the same style as Helloween's first EP and album, but came afterwards. But no band was playing that exact style before those first Helloween albums. So they were probably the first band to play that type of melodic speed metal. (AKA power metal)

Manowar is a US power metal band, which is a genre on it's own, with more similarities to heavy metal, than to euro-power metal. I don't know who started the US power metal genre, but it started before the European.

Helloween is considered the first (european) power metal band. Euro-power and US power are quite different and many US power metal bands like Manowar are considered heavy metal. Agent Steel had a style similar to power metal but I don't think they are pioneers of the genre.