Read this page. Scared to read the others. How does Time compare to the debut?

Written by essbee on 23.10.2012 at 10:11

That Italics kid is pretty stupid. Is he always like that?

not that I can remember.

Funny how he considers a festival with a capacity of 3,000 people and which sells out i n 7 minutes (last year), 15 minutes (the year before), a couple of hours (this year, the sale of the tickets was a month earlier than before and on a weekday night instead of the Saturday, and only a third of the bands had been announced) to be catering to just a few hundred so-called facebook fans who never heard the music.
It's actually safe to say the 3,000 attending Roadburn are there FOR the music and not the so-called camaraderie and atmosphere like loads of people attending Wacken (where there are actually people who stay on the camping grounds during the entire fest). The people attending Roadburn I would dare say are most probably more into the music on offer there than most mainstream metallers are into the music at Wacken. Plus they buy a lot more merch as well (especially cd's and vinyl). A Roadburn visitors spends on average some 400 euros on merch during those couple of days.
Yes, over at Roadburn there are always bands one hasn't heard. And guess what? That makes for loads of pleasant surprises, being able to discover cool new music.
My God how boring would a festival be where I know all the bands present. I want to discover new music and not be confronted by music I know through and through.

Written by moe5512 on 22.10.2012 at 23:57

You guys wanna start discussing Wintersun and Time I anytime soon?

HAHAHA You gotta admit this is an enjoyable thread though :p

Since mister Italics is so hellbent on naming bands from someone's profile when trying to prove a point...

Let's do it with the bands in his profile which have played the same 3,000 capacity venue which hosts Roadburn every year. And see how they fared there (either in a touring package or in a festival format, such as Roadburn's is)

Sonata Arctica, never had a sold out show there

Rhapsody Of Fire, never had a sold out show there

Katatonia, never had a sold out show there

Anathema, sold out the venue once or twice there, but most of the times didn't sell it out

Nightwish, sold out the venues on quite a few occasions

Kamelot, never had a sold out show there

Children Of Bodom, never had a sold out show there

After Forever, sold out the venue a couple of times

Within Temptation, sold out the venue a couple of times

Sirenia, never had a sold out show there

Ensiferum, never had a sold out show there

The Gathering, only had a sold out show there when they announced a special set with special guests

Delain, never had a sold out show there, can't even sell out a 1,000 capacity venue here, which btw surprises me since it's the sort of poppy metal music fans of female fronted bands seem to lap up. And as far as I know I am othe only one on the staff that really enjoys them (but then again I am very friendly footing with the bass player Otto ever since 1997)

Scar Symmetry, never sold out a single venue in this country

Stratovarius, never sold out a single venue in this country

Leaves' Eyes, never had a sold out show there

Apocalyptica, never had a sold out show there

Arch Enemy, never had a sold out a single venue in this country

Great review, I totally agree. Especially about the "feels unfinished" part. It would be better if Time II was released sooner.

All in all, I liked the debut way more than Time I.

Written by Italics on 23.10.2012 at 03:45

Written by Guest on 23.10.2012 at 00:30

Thank God for this review of a mediocre album: it's great to see every moron on Metalstorm congregate in one place and have a big old cry that it didn't get 10.

Aaaa, another MSer who will only listen to your band if you are a group of guys living in a basement who nobody has ever heard of. Check out this first line of favorite bands:
Blut Aus Nord, Skullflower, !T.O.O.H.!, The Meads Of Asphodel, Lurker Of Chalice, Murmuüre, Negative Plane, The Ruins Of Beverast, Beherit
I could go to a metal festival and probably no one would have ever even heard of one of these bands... if they had, they'd probably think they sucked. Your musical tastes must just be way too developed for mere earthlings like me to comprehend... in fact, there's probably only a select dozen of you on earth with such developed tastes.

And before you call me a fanboy, I'd probably only rate this album around a 7 (but that's only after one listen).
I'm not a huge Wintersun fan by any stretch of the imagnation... but when I see people calling this "generic" and comparing it to bands like Nightwish and Equilibrium, I lose a little faith in the metal community... until I remember that the opinions of the few people on MS are an awful representation of the actual metal community.

I hope you realize Joe is one of the least elitist users on this site, and if you'd check his ratings, you'd realize he gave very high ratings to very "melodic" bands or bands in "controversial" genres, (such as a 10 to Alive or Just Breathing).

Also out of the bands you singled out, Blut Aus Nord, !T.O.O.H! and The Ruins of Beverast are pretty will known, and I personally have heard about ALL of them by just passively being on the interwebs even if I don't really care about black metal (unless it is swedish melodic bm or is really artsy/subtle like A Forest of Stars, let's say).

You simply appear to have a grudge on extreme metal for some inexplainable reason I don't want to deal with, but you sound more and more like Ponderer with each post.


Also to answer your quote to my post, there is a shitstorm, mainly coming from people who are like OMG HOW CUD U HAVE RATED DIS 7.5 IT IZ A 10 WTF U R NOT BEEING UBJECTHIF M8". Which I know you are not. You are also doing a shitstorm but a different kind of shitstorm.

Written by Uldreth on 23.10.2012 at 11:58

being on the interwebs even if I don't really care about black metal (unless it is swedish melodic bm or is really artsy/subtle like A Forest of Stars, let's say).

You simply appear to have a grudge on extreme metal for some inexplainable reason I don't want to deal with, but you sound more and more like Ponderer with each post.

Let me guarantee you Italics is NOT Ponderer, actually Ponderer is fan of way more extreme metal than this Italics guy.

After reading some of the ranting between the members back and forth I think many of them are missing a vital point when it comes to Jari as a musician. I don't think he looks upon himself as "a guitarist in a metal band", but rather as "a composer". Wintersun as a band is not just 4 guys playing metal, it's pretty much a 1 man band with session musicians.

Also it all comes down to the same thing as it always does. From whos perspective you look at the music. My relation to Wintersun is problably different to each and every one of the other listeners. And most importantly, Jari's and the bands relation to it is theirs alone. After all, they make the music they want to, regardless to what 1 or 2 or 100 or a 1000 different people think.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 23.10.2012 at 12:07

Written by Uldreth on 23.10.2012 at 11:58

being on the interwebs even if I don't really care about black metal (unless it is swedish melodic bm or is really artsy/subtle like A Forest of Stars, let's say).

You simply appear to have a grudge on extreme metal for some inexplainable reason I don't want to deal with, but you sound more and more like Ponderer with each post.

Let me guarantee you Italics is NOT Ponderer, actually Ponderer is fan of way more extreme metal than this Italics guy.

I know he isn't, I just said he starts sounding like him

Written by Uldreth on 23.10.2012 at 12:10


I know he isn't, I just said he starts sounding like him

sorry for misunderstanding you. I woke up not too long ago,

I swear, ignorant yet self-proclaimed know-it-alls like this Italics douche are what makes the Internet fun.

Ponderer, the guardian of Kamelot. Vonpire, the guardian of Draconian. Italics, the guardian of Wintersun. The cycle never ends, does it? Always a blind fan who will fight tooth and nail for their favourite band, no matter what. So funny and simultaneously pathetic.

Written by Daniell on 23.10.2012 at 13:53

Italics, the guardian of Wintersun.

Well to be fair, he wasn't throwing a tantrum over the review or it's rating, he said he agrees with it, so this isn't really a fair statement.

The reason I think he is similiar to Ponderer is because I remember he was constantly ranting about how "melodic metal is getting "oppressed" on MS" which Italics also does, but no blind fanboyism here.

Quote:

Written by Uldreth on 23.10.2012 at 13:55

Well to be fair, he wasn't throwing a tantrum over the review or it's rating, he said he agrees with it, so this isn't really a fair statement.

He is throwing a tantrum about other people having a different opinion, so he fits perfectly into the ponderer/vonpire template.

What I find even more ridiculous is people who will cry to high heavens about too low a rating. 7.5 is too low. So they don't even question that someone rated an album lower than them. They almost demand that everyone rate it as high as they did. Not naming names, but a few posters here fit this description.

I know it all too well. I rated Kamelot with a 5.9, and Iron Maiden with a 7.2. What followed was pages and pages of similar remarks. Ponderer even went as far as to write his own reviews of Kamelot and Enslaved to reinforce his opinions

Written by Irritable Ted on 23.10.2012 at 13:58

Written by Daniell on 23.10.2012 at 13:53

Ponderer, the guardian of Kamelot. Vonpire, the guardian of Draconian. Italics, the guardian of Wintersun.

Stevie Wonder the Blind Guardian.

Nice one

I almost forgot one more: Merchant of Doom, the guardian of his own super-elitist opinion

Written by Uldreth on 23.10.2012 at 13:55

Written by Daniell on 23.10.2012 at 13:53

Italics, the guardian of Wintersun.

Well to be fair, he wasn't throwing a tantrum over the review or it's rating, he said he agrees with it, so this isn't really a fair statement.

The reason I think he is similiar to Ponderer is because I remember he was constantly ranting about how "melodic metal is getting "oppressed" on MS" which Italics also does, but no blind fanboyism here.

true he wasn't defending Wintersun. It was about melodic and also mainstream metal being oppressed here, when in fact most music featrued here is actually mainstream metal and also melodic metal. And the funny thing is he said my top 2012 list contains unknown black/death metal when in fgact I never had a top 2012 list and if I had it would consist mainly of doom album and some old school death metal and not black metal

Written by Daniell on 23.10.2012 at 14:04



I almost forgot one more: Merchant of Doom, the guardian of his own super-elitist opinion

you mean the guardian of totally generic boring Russian funeral doom

I have to agree, Buz. Just with second part we would be able to rate it more properly. Even though this "fragment" is massive, epic and well-made, still, symphonies changed Wintersun's ability to explain and show all of its melodies and "epicness" just by guitars, keys and Kai's incredible drum skills...

I can see what the reviewer is saying here.. but I generally disagree with the score. I think it should be higher than 7.5.. now I expect to be called some kind of Fanboy (only got into the two Wintersun albums recently) lol, but some aspects of this album, I actually prefer them to the S/T. Don't get me wrong, that album and the guitar solos are great, I just think the direction on this one is very interesting. I would give this album between 8.5 to 8.8.. which is what the album score is on MS anyway. This album is quite challenging to review atm, since we don't have our hands on part 2 yet. Let's hope it doesn't take another 8 years...

It's quite incredible an album this unspectacular being given a pretty fair rating can bring about this response. I guess if I hadn't heard (m)any other folk/symphonic/extremepower bands I'd probably be raving about this, but it's really a standard mid-tempo folk metal album drowning in layers of orchestrations. It's solid - I gave it an 8 but would be fine giving it a 7 or a 9, it has it's great and less-than-great parts. To the person who said if this was Ensiferum/Equilibrium/Brymir it would be getting better ratings - tbh after listening to Brymir's 2011 album again today, I'd probably be pretty happy giving this a 7.5 compared to that album, and the same applies for Sagas or From Afar. Can't quite believe some of the 'masterpiece' claims for it, but there you go; people could probably argue the same against some of the albums I hold in the same regard

Written by musclassia on 23.10.2012 at 18:37

It's quite incredible an album this unspectacular being given a pretty fair rating can bring about this response. I guess if I hadn't heard (m)any other folk/symphonic/extremepower bands I'd probably be raving about this, but it's really a standard mid-tempo folk metal album drowning in layers of orchestrations. It's solid - I gave it an 8 but would be fine giving it a 7 or a 9, it has it's great and less-than-great parts. To the person who said if this was Ensiferum/Equilibrium/Brymir it would be getting better ratings - tbh after listening to Brymir's 2011 album again today, I'd probably be pretty happy giving this a 7.5 compared to that album, and the same applies for Sagas or From Afar. Can't quite believe some of the 'masterpiece' claims for it, but there you go; people could probably argue the same against some of the albums I hold in the same regard

If this were released by any band but Wintersun, I can guarantee there wouldn't be all these people claiming it a 10, "the music of the Universe" or similar comments of great retardation.

At least this thread kept me entertained last night.

C'mon guys, I can't remember when was the last time I laughed so hard reading a topic on Metalstorm, I mean it, sadly for me, I have no more popcorn in my kitchen, but oh well, I can't wait for more fanboys to arise from the mounts of layers this album is made of.

I listened to it again, and all I can say is that even if it isn't a bad album, it is not the greatest shit ever or the second coming of the Christ. It doesn't matter if Jari is a composer or a guitarist as someone said before, as I said a long time ago on another thread where fanboys were claiming something about the incredible musicianship of their band:

"With great musicianship, comes great albums"

That being said, I think we must not confuse two things such as compose music and burying an album in layers and layers of synthesizers. At least Wintersun's debut let me listen to some actual riffs and not only some guitar scratching here and there, and I gotta say that not even their debut had a long lasting impression on me.
Yeah, this album feels incomplete, but, c'mon, 8 freaking years have passed, lots of delays and Jari claiming that he needed the aid of a supercomputer from the future to make this album and all we have now is THIS?
And some people dare to say this is not generic? I can write no less than ten similar bands in less than a minute without even thinking about it!

This is not a masterpiece, just another album that will be praised by the media, but that will receive a lot of criticism from careful listeners...

Written by Uldreth on 23.10.2012 at 11:58
I hope you realize Joe is one of the least elitist users on this site

From Joe's profile:

Quote:
Not as elitist as Marcel.

He's pretty elitist. He's just not an asshole about it! Same goes with me tbh...

Quote:
To the person who said if this was Ensiferum/Equilibrium/Brymir it would be getting better ratings - tbh after listening to Brymir's 2011 album again today, I'd probably be pretty happy giving this a 7.5 compared to that album, and the same applies for Sagas or From Afar.

What about Ensiferum's 'Unsung Heroes'? Compare that album to 'Time', both came out in the last couple of months... and this is considerably better. (imo)

My favorite point was Wintersun must be better than "Marcel's music" because it has more fans. Using the same lame argument, Justin Bieber has millions upon millions more fans than Wintersun. guess Wintersun isn't that good at all otherwise they'd be Bieber popular, amirite?

only chiming in for the enjoyment of those playing the MS Drinking Game:

1 sip per infraction:

Each comment that says an official review underrated an album and it should have been scored higher.

2 sips per infraction:

Every time a user bitches about the overall rating of a review not being the result of esoteric calculations including the Performance, Originality, Production and Songwriting ratings.

3 sips per infraction:

Each time someone bitches about a reviewer not being objective.

And from the top level, 5 sips per infraction:

Wintersun releases an album


I didn't bother to check to see if anyone registered for the express purpose of whining about the review, if so, that is 1 drink per. Also marcel insults power metal is 1 per infraction... he did sort of mock symphonic metal, so it's a borderline case (and I should update the drinking game) and those who want to can consume 1 per infraction.

Written by Sword_Chant on 23.10.2012 at 20:02

Quote:
To the person who said if this was Ensiferum/Equilibrium/Brymir it would be getting better ratings - tbh after listening to Brymir's 2011 album again today, I'd probably be pretty happy giving this a 7.5 compared to that album, and the same applies for Sagas or From Afar.

What about Ensiferum's 'Unsung Heroes'? Compare that album to 'Time', both came out in the last couple of months... and this is considerably better. (imo)

Eh, I liked Unsung Heroes. It's not in the same league as FA or the early albums by any stretch, but I enjoyed it more than many seemed to. Time I is definitely a better album, but not by a massive stretch. They're both largely mid-tempo, folk/heavily-folk-influenced albums. The main thing Time I has that UH doesn't is this attempt at 'epic-ness', what with the unnecessarily long tracks and the cacophony of symphonic layers; which it doesn't quite pull off IMO - it's a bit of a Dark Knight Rises for me, overly-ambitious in trying to trump it's wildly successful predecessor by trying to 'out-epic' it, but crumbling under its own weight by not having the ability to execute the idea. UH is by no means great, but the 15-minute song aside, feels like it has one foot on the ground and doesn't stretch too far - it's just a decent collection of midpaced extreme folk tunes.
Tbh if I listen to Time I a couple more times, I have the feeling that it might grow on me, but I still don't think it's a great album by any means.

7.5 is ok, it means almost very good, which actually means he likes the album, one would argue. The problem with MS are that most albums are insanely overrated in regard of point score. 9's are flying around like bullets on the beach of Normandie -44.

Written by peggazuzz on 24.10.2012 at 00:42

7.5 is ok, it means almost very good, which actually means he likes the album, one would argue. The problem with MS are that most albums are insanely overrated in regard of point score. 9's are flying around like bullets on the beach of Normandie -44.

depends upon who is doing the reviewing. most staff are far more conservative in doling out big numbers.

i've done 41 reviews this year. one 9. hell, only one of 8.5 or higher.

as far as guest reviewers go, well, there is a reason i popped guest reviews of 9+ on the MS drinking game.

Written by Guest on 23.10.2012 at 06:51

Don't misconstrue my attempts to challenge you on a vaguely intellectual level as "getting worked up." This is another attempt on your part to attack my presentation (again with another false assertion) whilst avoiding the actual topic at hand and you aren't concealing it very well. If you didn't understand the language I was using you should have taken your time and looked up the words you didn't comprehend (rather than limply dismissing them as incorrect or inappropriate. Just makes you look like a pleb).

You still seem worked up based off of your language and lengthy responses... but by all means, if you want to insist that you're not upset, be my guest. It reminds me of a person screaming "I'M NOT F***ING ANGRY!!!"
And I understood your "points" (weak as they are) plenty fine... I just found your misspellings and awkward grammar amusing. That's all. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

Written by Guest on 23.10.2012 at 06:51
It's the only one thing I said was fact. I haven't tried to portray opinion and guess work as fact, like you have. Unlike you I'm clear on what i'm trying to say.

I'll leave the irony of this one untouched.

Written by Guest on 23.10.2012 at 06:51

On the contrary it's an ideal example.

Actually no, no it's not. Realistically, you know it's not, too - but I'm not expecting you to admit to that any time soon. All it did was prove that a genre that truly is "noise" attracts more fans than the mindless drivel that you fill your ears with.
Again - it's hard for me to tell at times whose cause you're trying to further here. I should just let you debate yourself from here on out... it'd be more effective AND more entertaining. It's like the whole "fun AND educational" thing... you know... two birds, one stone.

Anyway, what I'm REALLY trying to say here is... thank you for agreeing with me on this one.

Oh, and by the way... I got a chuckle (literally, I did!) out of you saying "I like how you ignored my second example" and then proceeding to quote my response to your second example. Well done, soldier! Your foot is gonna look like swiss cheese by the time we're done here...

To the idea that I don't "understand" your "music":
1) There is nothing much to dissect with the music you enjoy. 99% of it is noise. You yourself - if I were to remove the tags from all your songs - would probably be incapable of telling one song from the next. It's wildly unpopular - even less popular (as you kindly demonstrated for me already - again, thanks!) than some of the most unpopular genres on the planet.
2) You obviously feel that you have some sort of advanced taste in music that 99.99% of humans don't have... I get that. It doesn't make you any less wrong.
3) All lists look better with three items

(Oh, and by the way, your original argument with the bands I picked was that I was selective or had some sort of agenda with who I chose. After I pointed out that I just took the first line, you conveniently changed your tune. I'm loving the flip-flopping... it truly is election season!
Regardless... I could have chosen virtually any line out of your list and gotten the same result.)

Written by Guest on 23.10.2012 at 06:51

It actually went more like this:
You make a false statement
I point out that it's false
You follow up with a completely inaccurate accusation
I correct that accusation
You deny you ever made the accusation and resort back to the false statement
I show you why your original statement is wrong... again
You give up because you have nothing that is backed up by evidence or factual to say

Thanks for using my own words to portray an idea that you were not adequately able to put into words yourself. Are you beginning to see why I'm having a hard time distinguishing whose side you're on here?

Written by Guest on 23.10.2012 at 06:51
Again, lots of assertions about my current state. I think it's patently obvious which one of us is the more level headed here.

Yes... you have been extremely level-headed. Hence the constant name-calling of "butthurt" (about?) and the angsty+lengthy responses you've made for me.
(PS - I said your hair was fabulous and you still object. What does it take to please you?)

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 23.10.2012 at 11:39

Since mister Italics is so hellbent on naming bands from someone's profile when trying to prove a point...

Let's do it with the bands in his profile which have played the same 3,000 capacity venue which hosts Roadburn every year. And see how they fared there (either in a touring package or in a festival format, such as Roadburn's is)

Sonata Arctica, never had a sold out show there

Rhapsody Of Fire, never had a sold out show there

Katatonia, never had a sold out show there

Anathema, sold out the venue once or twice there, but most of the times didn't sell it out

Nightwish, sold out the venues on quite a few occasions

Kamelot, never had a sold out show there

Children Of Bodom, never had a sold out show there

After Forever, sold out the venue a couple of times

Within Temptation, sold out the venue a couple of times

Sirenia, never had a sold out show there

Ensiferum, never had a sold out show there

The Gathering, only had a sold out show there when they announced a special set with special guests

Delain, never had a sold out show there, can't even sell out a 1,000 capacity venue here, which btw surprises me since it's the sort of poppy metal music fans of female fronted bands seem to lap up. And as far as I know I am othe only one on the staff that really enjoys them (but then again I am very friendly footing with the bass player Otto ever since 1997)

Scar Symmetry, never sold out a single venue in this country

Stratovarius, never sold out a single venue in this country

Leaves' Eyes, never had a sold out show there

Apocalyptica, never had a sold out show there

Arch Enemy, never had a sold out a single venue in this country

I'm both flattered and concerned that you'd take the time to research all of this just to respond to lil' ol' me.
Flattered that you care so much and that I've got you so worked up.
Concerned that you have nothing better to do. If you need a friend, I'm only a phone call away...

Anyway, no need for me to delve into this one too much. You're attempting to prove to me that Meads of Asphodel are more popular/better than Sonata Arctica because they played/sold out at some random venue. Actually... you're comparing a festival to a single band... so your research is actually MORE concerning than I had thought originally since it holds not just a REMOTE amount of relevance - but actually NO relevance or significance at all.

You've really outdone yourself.