Thumbs up: +46
My other lists:
Tasty Stuff Not Currently Featured On MS

A concise list of my metalhead man-crushes (now featuring ladies.)

While there is little introduction required for some of these bands and their front(wo)men, there are no words that can accurately describe such jaw-dropping talent anyhow. The albums and youtube links listed are meant to display the full capacity of vocalists' talents, not the bands' most quality or popular tracks - click the links below and behold the prowess.

Many tears will be shed on your behalf if your favourite vocalist isn't here. That being said, any suggestions are more than welcome. A star (★) indicates that the vocalist is exceptionally versatile. If you believe that a certain vocalist deserves a (currently unaccredited) star, then post a few YouTube tracks to support your case.

Avoided criteria:
- Consistency with live performances
- Emotional delivery
- Ability to write aurally appealing vocal lines
- Ability to compliment the music

i.e. The style performances are judged solely on technical ability.

Here are the tracks I've allocated to the vocalists so far in the order of the list below. If you have suggestion which better showcases any vocalist's talents or if any of the link aren't working, please let me know.
Abstrakt Algebra - Mats Levén
Akercocke - Jason Mendonca #1 and #2
Amorphis - Tomi Joutsen
Anaal Nathrakh - David "V.I.T.R.I.O.L." Hunt
Animals As Leaders - Frans Aalto ★★★★★★★★★★★
Avatarium - Jennie-Ann Smith
Avenged Sevenfold - Matthew "M. Shadows" Sanders #1 and #2
Beyond The Bridge - Herbie Langhans
Caligula's Horse - Jim Grey
Candlemass - Johan Längqvist
Cattle Decapitation - Travis Ryan
Centiment - Dave McPherson #1, #2, and #3
Chrome Division - Pål "Athera" Mathisen
Communic - Oddleif Stensland
Dark Suns - Niko Knappe #1 and #2
Devin Townsend - Devin Townsend
Dissona - Dave Dubenic
Disturbed David Michael Draiman #1 and #2
Dream Theater - Kevin James LaBrie #1 and #2 (vocal range and impressive performances)
Emperor (Ihsahn) - Vegard Sverre "Ihsahn" Tveitan
Empyrios - Silvio Mancini
Estradasphere - Tim Smolens (57:33)
Evereve - Tom Sedotschenko
Evergrey - Tom S. Englund
Evile - Matthew "Matt" Drake
Exodus - Steve "Zetro" Souza
Favna Abisal - Melanocetus Jhonsoni
Feared - Mario Santos-Ramos
Gojira - Joseph "Joe" Duplantier
Gorefest - Jan-Chris de Koeijer #1 and #2
Grave Digger - Chris Boltendahl
Haken - Ross Jennings #1, #2, and #3
Hamferð - Jón Aldará #1 and #2
Heavatar - Stefan Schmidt
Hell - David Bower
Helloween - Andi Deris
HIM - Ville Hermanni Valo
Ice Age - Josh Pincus
ICS Vortex - Simen "ICS Vortex" Hestnæs
In Vain - Sindre Nedland #1 and #2
Iron Maiden - Paul Bruce Dickinson #1 and #2
King Crimson - Adrian Belew
King Diamond - Kim "King Diamond" Bendix Petersen
Lamb Of God - David Randall "Randy" Blythe
Leprous - Einar Solberg
Loch Vostok - Teddy "Dr. Ted Killer Miller" Möller #1 and #2
Machine Head - Robert "Robb" Flynn
Masterplan - Jørn Lande
Mayhem - Attila Gábor Csihar #1 and #2 (~4:10)
Moonspell - Fernando Ribeiro
Nevermore - Warrel Dane
Noekk - Thomas Helm
Omb - Davidavi Dolev Too much vocal variety - you'll just have to listen to the entire album. ★
Opeth (Bloodbath) - Mikael Åkerfeldt #1, #2, and #3
Overkill - Bobby "Blitz" Ellsworth
Pagan's Mind - Nils Kvåle Rue
Pain Of Salvation - Daniel Gildenlöw
Paradise Lost - Nick Holmes
Periphery - Spencer Sotelo
Pinkly Smooth - James "The Reverend Tholomew Plague" Sullivan
Primal Fear - Ralf Scheepers
Protest The Hero - Rody "Cheese" Walker
Psycroptic - Matthew "Chalky" Chalk
Rishloo - Andrew Mailloux
Riverside - Mariusz Duda
Savage Circus (Persuader/Dark Empire) - Jens Carlsson
Savatage - John Nicholas "Jon" Oliva
Scar Symmetry - Christian Älvestam
Shaolin Death Squad - Androo O'Hearn
Sieges Even - Greg Keller
Soldis - Del Tremens - tracks 1,4, 7
Space Odyssey - David Fremberg
Stravaganzza - Leo Jiménez
Sword - Rick Hughes
Symphony X - Russell Allen
System Of A Down - Serj Tankian #1 and #2
Tesseract - Daniel Tompkins #1 and #2
Tesseract - Ashe O'Hara
Testament - Chuck Billy
Textures - Daniel de Jongh
Textures - Eric Kalsbeek
The Foreshadowing - Marco Benevento
The Gathering - Anneke Van Giersbergen
The Mars Volta - Cedric Bixler-Zavala
Tool - Maynard James Keenan
Triptykon - Tom Gabriel "Warrior" Fischer #1 and #2
Twelve Foot Ninja - Nik "Kin" Etik
Twilight Of The Gods (Primordial/Dread Sovereign) - Alan "Nemtheanga" Averill
Uneven Structure - Matthieu Romarin
Unhuman - Youri Raymond (track 3)
Veni Domine - Fredrik Ohlsson
Vintersorg - Andreas "Vintersorg" Hedlund
Virgin Black - Rowan London #1, #2, and #3
Vulture Industries - Bjørnar Erevik Nilsen #1 (37:43) and #2 (43:30)
W.A.S.P. - Steven Edward "Blackie Lawless" Duren
Warning - Patrick Walker
Winds (Before The Dawn) - Lars "Eikind" Eric Si
Wintersun - Jari Mäenpää
Witherscape - Dan Swanö
Wolverine - Stefan Zell
Xanthochroid - Matthew Earl #1 (3:05) and #2 (sexy blonde dude)
Xanthochroid - Sam Meador

No working links or properly ascribed stars below this point. Please suggest song(s) for the vocalist(s) below if you have any insight into their best work.

Adagio - David Readman
Arcturus - Kristoffer "Garm" Rygg
Blind Guardian - Hansi Kürsch
Candlemass - Messiah Marcolin
Cradle Of Filth - Daniel Lloyd "Dani Filth" Davey
Demilich - Antti "C. Void" "Von Stroh" Boman
Diablo Swing Orchestra - Annlouice Loegdlund
Dio - Ronald James "Ronnie Dio" Padavona
Disillusion - Andy "Vurtox" Schmidt of Disillusion
Headspace - Damian Wilson
Iced Earth - Matthew "Matt" Barlow
Iced Earth - Stuart "Stu" Block
Iced Earth - Tim "Ripper" Owens
Judas Priest - Robert John Arthur "Rob" Halford
Madder Mortem - Agnete M. Kirkevaag
Pantera - Philip Hansen "Phil" Anselmo
Pharaoh - Tim Aymar
Retarded Noise Squad - Unknown vocalist
Scariot - Øyvind "Maztema" Hægeland
Sleepytime Gorilla Museum - Nils Frykdahl
Sodom - Tom "Angelripper" Such
Spires - Paul Sadler
Stolen Babies - Dominique Lenore Persi
The Wandering Midget - Samuel "Qraken" Wormius
Tomahawk (Mr. Bungle, Faith No More, Fantômas) - Michael Allan "Mike" Patton
Vangough - Clay Withrow
Vektor - David Disanto
Wastefall - Domenik Papaemmanouil

Pending considerations - please recommend songs for the vocalists below:
- Acid Witch - Lasse Pyykkö
- Anubis Gate - Jacob Hansen
- Artillery - Flemming Rönsdorf
- Atrox - Rune Folgerø
- Bathory - Tomas "Ace" "Quorthon" Forsberg
- Crimson Glory - John Patrick Jr. "Midnight" McDonald
- Darkwater -Henrik Båth
- Devil Doll - Mr. Doctor
- Fates Warning - Ray Alder
- Fates Warning John Arch
- Holy Moses - Sabina Classen
- Kamelot - Roy "Khan" Sætre Khantatat
- Lake of Tears - Daniel Brennare
- Marduk - Daniel "Mortuus" Rostén
- Mist Within - Alireza ''Safires'' Motevasel
- Mortillery - Cara McCutchen
- Novembers Doom - Paul Kuhr
- Queensrÿche - Geoff Tate
- Seventh Wonder - Tommy Karevik
- Skid Row - Sebastian "Bach" Philip Bierk
- While Heaven Wept - Rain Irving
- Within Temptation - Sharon den Adel
- Yearning - Juhani Palomäki

Created by: LeKiwi | 03.05.2013



1. Abstrakt Algebra - Abstrakt Algebra
1995 / Mats Levén
2. Adagio - Underworld
2003 / David Readman
3. Akercocke - Words That Go Unspoken, Deeds That Go Undone
2005 / Jason Mendonca
4. Amorphis - Silent Waters
2007 / Tomi Joutsen
5. Anaal Nathrakh - Vanitas
2012 / David "V.I.T.R.I.O.L." Hunt
6. Animals As Leaders - Weightless
2011 / Frans Aalto
7. Arcturus - The Sham Mirrors
2002 / Kristoffer "Garm" Rygg
8. Avatarium - Avatarium
2013 / Jennie-Ann Smith
9. Avenged Sevenfold - City Of Evil
2005 / Matthew "M. Shadows" Sanders
10. Beyond The Bridge - The Old Man And The Spirit
2012 / Herbie Langhans
11. Blind Guardian - At The Edge Of Time
2010 / Hansi Kürsch
12. Caligula's Horse - Moments From Ephemeral City
2011 / Jim Grey
13. Candlemass - Epicus Doomicus Metallicus
1986 / Johan Längqvist
14. Candlemass - Nightfall
1987 / Messiah Marcolin
15. Cattle Decapitation - Monolith Of Inhumanity
2012 / Travis Ryan
16. Centiment - Streets Of Rage
2014 / Dave McPherson
17. Chrome Division - 3rd Round Knockout
2011 / Pål "Athera" Mathisen
18. Communic - Waves Of Visual Decay
2006 / Oddleif Stensland
19. Cradle Of Filth - Dusk... And Her Embrace
1996 / Daniel Lloyd "Dani Filth" Davey
20. Dark Suns - Grave Human Genuine
2008 / Niko Knappe
21. Demilich - Nespithe
1993 / Antti "C. Void" "Von Stroh" Boman
22. Devin Townsend - Accelerated Evolution
2003 / Devin Townsend
23. Diablo Swing Orchestra - The Butcher's Ballroom
2006 / Annlouice Loegdlund
24. Dio - Holy Diver
1983 / Ronald James "Ronnie Dio" Padavona
25. Disillusion - Back To Times Of Splendor
2004 / Andy "Vurtox" Schmidt
26. Dissona - Dissona
2012 / Dave Dubenic
27. Disturbed - Asylum
2010 / David Michael Draiman
28. Dream Theater - Awake
1994 / Kevin James LaBrie
29. Emperor - Prometheus: The Discipline Of Fire And Demise
2001 / Vegard Sverre "Ihsahn" Tveitan
30. Empyrios - Zion
2013 / Silvio Mancini
31. Estradasphere - Quadropus
2003 / Tim Smolens
32. Evereve - Stormbirds
1998 / Tom Sedotschenko
33. Evergrey - Recreation Day
2003 / Tom S. Englund
34. Evile - Skull
2013 / Matthew "Matt" Drake
35. Exodus - Tempo Of The Damned
2004 / Steve "Zetro" Souza
36. Favna Abisal - Rerum Imaginaria
2012 / Melanocetus Jhonsoni
37. Feared - Vinter
2013 / Mario Santos-Ramos
38. Gojira - From Mars To Sirius
2005 / Joseph "Joe" Duplantier
39. Gorefest - Rise To Ruin
2007 / Jan-Chris de Koeijer
40. Grave Digger - The Grave Digger
2001 / Chris Boltendahl
41. Haken - The Mountain
2013 / Ross Jennings
42. Hamferð - Evst
2013 / Jón Aldará
43. Headspace - I Am Anonymous
2012 / Damian Wilson
44. Heavatar - Opus I - All My Kingdoms / Stefan Schmidt
45. Hell - Human Remains
2011 / David Bower
46. Helloween - Straight Out Of Hell
2013 / Andi Deris
47. HIM - Venus Doom
2007 / Ville Hermanni Valo
48. Ice Age - The Great Divide
1999 / Josh Pincus
49. Iced Earth - Dystopia
2011 / Stuart "Stu" Block
50. Iced Earth - The Crucible Of Man (Something Wicked - Part 2)
2008 / Matthew "Matt" Barlow
51. Iced Earth - The Glorious Burden
2004 / Tim "Ripper" Owens
52. ICS Vortex - Storm Seeker
2011 / Simen "ICS Vortex" Hestnæs
53. In Vain - Ænigma
2013 / Sindre Nedland
54. Iron Maiden - A Matter Of Life And Death
2006 / Paul Bruce Dickinson
55. Judas Priest - Angel Of Retribution
2005 / Robert John Arthur "Rob" Halford
56. King Crimson - EleKtrik: Live In Japan
2003 / Adrian Belew
57. King Diamond - "Them"
1988 / Kim "King Diamond" Bendix Petersen
58. Lamb Of God - Wrath
2009 / David Randall "Randy" Blythe
59. Leprous - Bilateral
2011 / Einar Solberg
60. Loch Vostok - V: The Doctrine Decoded
2012 / Teddy "Dr. Ted Killer Miller" Möller
61. Machine Head - The Blackening
2007 / Robert "Robb" Flynn
62. Madder Mortem - Eight Ways
2009 / Agnete M. Kirkevaag
63. Masterplan - Masterplan
2003 / Jørn Lande
64. Mayan - Quarterpast
2011 / Henning Basse
65. Mayhem - Ordo Ad Chao
2007 / Attila Gábor Csihar
66. Moonspell - Irreligious
1996 / Fernando Ribeiro
67. Nevermore - This Godless Endeavor
2005 / Warrel Dane
68. Noekk - The Water Sprite
2005 / Thomas Helm
69. Omb - SwineSong
2013 / Davidavi Dolev
70. Opeth - Watershed
2008 / Mikael Åkerfeldt
71. Overkill - The Electric Age
2012 / Bobby "Blitz" Ellsworth
72. Pagan's Mind - Heavenly Ecstasy
2011 / Nils Kvåle Rue
73. Pain Of Salvation - The Perfect Element, Part I
2000 / Daniel Gildenlöw
74. Pantera - Vulgar Display Of Power
1992 / Philip Hansen "Phil" Anselmo
75. Paradise Lost - Faith Divides Us - Death Unites Us
2009 / Nick Holmes
76. Periphery - Periphery II: This Time It's Personal
2012 / Spencer Sotelo
77. Pharaoh - Bury The Light
2012 / Tim Aymar
78. Pinkly Smooth - Unfortunate Snort
2002 / James "The Reverend Tholomew Plague" Sullivan
79. Primal Fear - Delivering The Black
2014 / Ralf Scheepers
80. Protest The Hero - Fortress
2008 / Rody "Cheese" Walker
81. Psycroptic - The Scepter Of The Ancients
2003 / Matthew "Chalky" Chalk
82. Retarded Noise Squad - Bananas
2011 / Unknown vocalist
83. Rishloo - Feathergun
2009 / Andrew Mailloux
84. Riverside - Out Of Myself
2003 / Mariusz Duda
85. Savage Circus - Of Doom And Death
2009 / Jens Carlsson
86. Savatage - Hall Of The Mountain King
1987 / John Nicholas "Jon" Oliva
87. Scar Symmetry - Pitch Black Progress
2006 / Christian Älvestam
88. Scariot - Momentum Shift
2007 / Øyvind "Maztema" Hægeland
89. Shaolin Death Squad - Intelligent Design
2006 / Androo O'Hearn
90. Sieges Even - Sophisticated
1995 / Greg Keller
91. Sleepytime Gorilla Museum - In Glorious Times
2007 / Nils Frykdahl
92. Sodom - Sodom
2006 / Tom "Angelripper" Such
93. Soldis - Age D
2013 / Del Tremens
94. Space Odyssey - The Astral Episode
2005 / David Fremberg
95. Spires - Spiral Of Ascension
2010 / Paul Sadler
96. Stolen Babies - There Be Squabbles Ahead
2006 / Dominique Lenore Persi
97. Stravaganzza - Raíces
2010 / Leo Jiménez
98. Sword - Sweet Dreams
1988 / Rick Hughes
99. Symphony X - The Odyssey
2002 / Russell Allen
100. System Of A Down - Toxicity
2001 / Serj Tankian
101. Tesseract - Altered State
2013 / Ashe O'Hara
102. Tesseract - Concealing Fate
2010 / Daniel Tompkins
103. Testament - The Formation Of Damnation
2008 / Chuck Billy
104. Textures - Dualism
2011 / Daniel de Jongh
105. Textures - Silhouettes
2008 / Eric Kalsbeek
106. The Foreshadowing - Days Of Nothing
2007 / Marco Benevento
107. The Gathering - Mandylion
1995 / Anneke Van Giersbergen
108. The Mars Volta - De-Loused In The Comatorium
2003 / Cedric Bixler-Zavala
109. The Wandering Midget - From The Meadows Of Opium Dreams
2012 / Samuel "Qraken" Wormius
110. Tomahawk - Oddfellows
2013 / Michael Allan "Mike" Patton
111. Tool - Lateralus
2001 / Maynard James Keenan
112. Triptykon - Eparistera Daimones
2010 / Tom Gabriel "Warrior" Fischer
113. Twelve Foot Ninja - Silent Machine
2012 / Nik "Kin" Etik
114. Twilight Of The Gods - Fire On The Mountain
2013 / Alan "Nemtheanga" Averill
115. Uneven Structure - Februus
2011 / Matthieu Romarin
116. Unhuman - Unhuman
2013 / Youri Raymond
117. Vangough - Between The Madness
2013 / Clay Withrow
118. Vektor - Outer Isolation
2011 / David Disanto
119. Veni Domine - Spiritual Wasteland
1998 / Fredrik Ohlsson
120. Vintersorg - Orkan
2012 / Andreas "Vintersorg" Hedlund
121. Virgin Black - Elegant...And Dying
2003 / Rowan London
122. Vulture Industries - The Tower
2013 / Bjørnar Erevik Nilsen
123. W.A.S.P. - The Crimson Idol
1992 / Steven Edward "Blackie Lawless" Duren
124. Warning - Watching From A Distance
2006 / Patrick Walker
125. Wastefall - Self Exile
2006 / Domenik Papaemmanouil
126. Winds - The Imaginary Direction Of Time
2004 / Lars "Eikind" Eric Si
127. Wintersun - Wintersun
2004 / Jari Mäenpää
128. Witherscape - The Inheritance
2013 / Dan Swanö
129. Wolverine - Communication Lost
2011 / Stefan Zell
130. Xanthochroid - Blessed He With Boils
2012 / Matthew Earl
131. Xanthochroid - Blessed He With Boils
2012 / Sam Meador



Disclaimer: All top lists are unofficial and do not represent the point of view of the MS Staff.
[ More lists by LeKiwi ]



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LeKiwi - 09.10.2013 at 01:54  
Written by Erik M. on 09.10.2013 at 01:39

Written by LeKiwi on 08.10.2013 at 02:19

More vocal styles at their disposal = greater versatility. Those two directly correlate - mathematics That being said, the assignment of stars isn't complete and more may be added at any given time.


Okay, so it seems I was again wrong in thinking you could be sensible. Look... what you said right there is absolutely correct, but adding stars is a bad idea with your criteria. Why? Because you only judge a certain vocalist by one or a few tracks. Not always of course, but it does happen in a lot of cases. That means you can't really judge the versatility of the vocalist properly, which results in handing out stars to your favourite vocalists since apparently your mathemetics is like this: "your favourite vocalist = more vocal styles at their disposal = greater versatility". Why not just add stars to your favourite vocalists? That way it is more personal and people like me can't complain you're doing it wrong. Because yes, you ARE wrong and that's a fact right there since while versatility is objective, you have only given stars to the vocalists that are your personal favourites and totally ignored vocalists that truly deserve a star, like Moonspell's vocalist. So if the star concept (with your criteria) was actually executed correctly then I wouldn't have a problem with it AT ALL, but as of now it's simply wrong. I'm sorry for the rant, but when I see something that is so utterly wrong or illogical I just can't ignore it and be totally baffled as I am now.

Also, Dani Filth from Cradle of Filth and Tom Sedotschenko from Evereve are among the most versatile vocalists out there and yet they aren't on your list.

I'm too tired of arguing at this point. How about you give me an example of a versatile vocalist (say Moonspell's) accompanied with a track or several for that matter. If you can't think of one or can't be bothered, then define versatility for me.
Erik M. - 09.10.2013 at 02:08  
Written by LeKiwi on 09.10.2013 at 01:54

I'm too tired of arguing at this point. How about you give me an example of a versatile vocalist (say Moonspell's) accompanied with a track or several for that matter. If you can't think of one or can't be bothered, then define versatility for me.


My point is: it's almost impossible to judge the vocalists because you don't know all of them enough to do so. Your definition of versatility is pretty accurate I'd say, no problems with that.

I'm going to recommend Tom Sedotschenko for the ??th time again then:





Any of those (or both) tracks are good examples in my opinion (but I'd choose the first one). Too bad the first vocals you hear in the 2nd song aren't in the first song (link I posted in this message), because then it would've been the perfect song for your list (with all his vocal styles).

Edit: actually this track (which I recommended to you in my very first comment) might be the best choice for your list, since it also has the more emotional vocals (I'm talking about the vocals at 2:05... truly magnificent vocals to my ears):

LeKiwi - 09.10.2013 at 02:59  
Written by Erik M. on 09.10.2013 at 02:08

My point is: it's almost impossible to judge the vocalists because you don't know all of them enough to do so. Your definition of versatility is pretty accurate I'd say, no problems with that.

I'm going to recommend Tom Sedotschenko for the ??th time again then:





Any of those (or both) tracks are good examples in my opinion (but I'd choose the first one). Too bad the first vocals you hear in the 2nd song aren't in the first song (link I posted in this message), because then it would've been the perfect song for your list (with all his vocal styles).

Edit: actually this track (which I recommended to you in my very first comment) might be the best choice for your list, since it also has the more emotional vocals (I'm talking about the vocals at 2:05... truly magnificent vocals to my ears):



Well, he definitely has talent, just wait until I do the next update. Regarding the Tom's vocals, I've heard 4 vocal styles as of yet. Cleans (low to mid range), screams (low to high), screams to pitch (low to mid), and belted cleans (low to mid.) In all technicality I could include the whispers and spoken-word but...

When compared to say Wintersun's vocalist, whom everyone here belittles, he doesn't have as many. Jari does regular cleans (low to high), belted cleans (low to high), screams (low to high), screams to pitch (mid-high), cleans with slight applied fry (low-high), falsetto (high), and his open-throat (low). Jari is very talented and versatile - that's 7 styles - despite that he is frequently dismissed since he most frequently uses a high scream. Being versatile doesn't require it to be utilised all the time.

Most of the vocalists on my list use between 3 to 4 styles, I can't star them all can I? I have to star the best However you are correct about one part; I will never hear the true versatility of each vocalist, only much of the band's music that I hear. That's why I'm relying on the users to prove to me which vocalists deserve stars. I will make that apparent above now.
Erik M. - 09.10.2013 at 20:56  
Written by LeKiwi on 09.10.2013 at 02:59

Well, he definitely has talent, just wait until I do the next update. Regarding the Tom's vocals, I've heard 4 vocal styles as of yet. Cleans (low to mid range), screams (low to high), screams to pitch (low to mid), and belted cleans (low to mid.) In all technicality I could include the whispers and spoken-word but...

When compared to say Wintersun's vocalist, whom everyone here belittles, he doesn't have as many. Jari does regular cleans (low to high), belted cleans (low to high), screams (low to high), screams to pitch (mid-high), cleans with slight applied fry (low-high), falsetto (high), and his open-throat (low). Jari is very talented and versatile - that's 7 styles - despite that he is frequently dismissed since he most frequently uses a high scream. Being versatile doesn't require it to be utilised all the time.

Most of the vocalists on my list use between 3 to 4 styles, I can't star them all can I? I have to star the best However you are correct about one part; I will never hear the true versatility of each vocalist, only much of the band's music that I hear. That's why I'm relying on the users to prove to me which vocalists deserve stars. I will make that apparent above now.


Good to see you became sensible after all and added Tom, which should've been a no-brainer for a list like this. I'm not going to argue over how many vocals styles certain vocalists have because I simple don't feel like analysing the vocals like that. Even though you said Jari has 7 vocal styles and Tom has "only" 4 (I think he has more though), it still feels like Tom is more versatile since his vocal styles differ more from each other, whereas some of Jari's vocal styles are pretty similar so it's hard to hear the difference between them.

And I still stand by saying that the star concept is a bad idea because of what I said. I honestly don't see why it would be a bad thing to indicate your own personal favourites. But this is the last time I'll mention this, because I already said it multiple times and I don't think repeating myself would do any good.

So now that is dealt with, I can give you some suggestions on the pending vocalists or not-yet-added vocalists.

Arcturus: this is truly a no-brainer, as it is easily the best song vocal-wise by the band and arguably the greatest song they ever made (it's my favourite as well as Fredd's ): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1opjmuiHWw

Candlemass: easily one of the best songs by the band for me and a total classic (Nile used it for Unas Slayer of the Gods, as I mentioned): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmV9MsFnUbk

Cradle of Filth: despite the fact that I'm not into CoF anymore, I feel this track might be a very good representation of his vocals, seeing his regular screams are heard, but also his "talking" voice and very deep growls etc. (still an awesome track): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHmqL_-AK6M

Isole: Marcel might know a song with growls but I don't know a song like that yet, so here's a good suggestion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPD5wert0iI Not a very versatile vocalist, but great at what he does.

Lake of Tears: here is a track that has his great clean vocals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KENQTP1Seac and here with his harsher vocals (not growls): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZPMveQdVTU (this last one is probably the best choice because it also has totally clean vocals). It's been a while since I fully listened to that album, but I'm pretty sure that's the album you're looking for when searching for the best vocals since on the album Headstones there aren't any (or barely) vocals like those heard in the first song I linked in this message.

My Dying Bride: here it goes again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iolc0D_Dx90 MDB just has a huge amount of songs to choose from and even for me it's hard to decide which one, but this song is definitely one of the best songs I can think of since you'll hear many different vocal styles here, so judge for yourself. This is also easily one of the best, if not THE best MDB album of them all.

Novembers Doom: not sure which track actually stands out vocal-wise but most tracks on this album qualify: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqb3lbKqhFI

Yearning: one of my favourite songs by the band and from their best album: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvXLhVuX1xI It features his clean vocals as well as his growls, so check it out.
Boxcar Willy - 10.10.2013 at 04:17  
Taking things too far 101.
LeKiwi - 10.10.2013 at 04:37  
Written by Boxcar Willy on 10.10.2013 at 04:17

Taking things too far 101.

A lack of appreciation for the attention to detail on your part. This is a popular list for a reason
Lit. - 10.10.2013 at 04:46  
I can't believe he hasn't even been mentioned yet.



...Considering Midnight owns maybe half the vocalists on this list.

For instance:




Also, burn on Willy. I appreciate the hard work that is put into this list. Shows good quality, effort and dedication on your part.
LeKiwi - 10.10.2013 at 04:57  
Written by Lit. on 10.10.2013 at 04:46

I can't believe he hasn't even been mentioned yet...Considering Midnight owns maybe half the vocalists on this list.

Cheers for the suggestion, one hell of a voice there He's on the pending consideration until I do the next update.
Erik M. - 10.10.2013 at 17:39  
Written by Boxcar Willy on 10.10.2013 at 04:17

Taking things too far 101.


Kind of, yeah... Not talking about the length of the list, but mainly the huge discription that is kind of irrelevant seeing as those Youtube links also could be added in the list itself (like Fritillaria has). That way, one doesn't have to scroll up and down constantly if they're looking for a certain album or song, which is way better than how it is now if you ask me. The pending vocalists I would also remove because they are totally irrelevant, since they aren't in the actual list (yet). LeKiwi could just have those in a Word-file (like I have with suggestions for my lists) instead of in the desciption. And the stars I could also do without. But of course everything what I just said is my opinion and knowing LeKiwi, he will simply ignore my advice.
LeKiwi - 10.10.2013 at 21:04  
Written by Erik M. on 10.10.2013 at 17:39

Written by Boxcar Willy on 10.10.2013 at 04:17

Taking things too far 101.


Kind of, yeah... Not talking about the length of the list, but mainly the huge discription that is kind of irrelevant seeing as those Youtube links also could be added in the list itself (like Fritillaria has). That way, one doesn't have to scroll up and down constantly if they're looking for a certain album or song, which is way better than how it is now if you ask me. The pending vocalists I would also remove because they are totally irrelevant, since they aren't in the actual list (yet). LeKiwi could just have those in a Word-file (like I have with suggestions for my lists) instead of in the desciption. And the stars I could also do without. But of course everything what I just said is my opinion and knowing LeKiwi, he will simply ignore my advice.

The links wouldn't be clickable if they were alongside the albums. That's the only reason they're in the description. Otherwise you'd have to copy paste the link, which is annoying The pending vocalists list is there to make contributors appreciated, prevent redundant suggestions, and help people make song suggestions. So, it's very useful indeed Also considering all of the s .....
Erik M. - 10.10.2013 at 21:13  
Written by LeKiwi on 10.10.2013 at 21:04

The links wouldn't be clickable if they were alongside the albums. That's the only reason they're in the description. Otherwise you'd have to copy paste the link, which is annoying The pending vocalists list is there to make contributors appreciated, prevent redundant suggestions, and help people make song suggestions. So, it's very useful indeed Also considering all of the s .....


I know they aren't clickable when they're in the list. Constantly scrolling up and down is way more annoying than just having to copy and paste a link, but you (and others) probably disagree with that. Just giving you my opinion on the matter. The pending vocalists might go on the list or they might not, so that's why I don't think it's very relevant. But then again, for song suggestions it's indeed helpful, so I agree with that. And yeah, I remember this list having only +7 a week (or maybe longer) ago, so how did that happen?
LeKiwi - 10.10.2013 at 21:31  
Written by Erik M. on 10.10.2013 at 21:13

I know they aren't clickable when they're in the list. Constantly scrolling up and down is way more annoying than just having to copy and paste a link, but you (and others) probably disagree with that. Just giving you my opinion on the matter. The pending vocalists might go on the list or they might not, so that's why I don't think it's very relevant. But then again, for song suggestions it's indeed helpful, so I agree with that. And yeah, I remember this list having only +7 a week (or maybe longer) ago, so how did that happen?

Well all the one's that aren't going to be added are simply removed, so that's not too hard

What I did to garner all those thumbs up is rather ingenious. All those "users" that +1'd my list are simply accounts that I created for the sole purpose of having the most popular list on MS. I've waited years for this plan to finally come to fruition. I also had to make all the accounts look legit, to avoid suspicion. Thus, all of them are created at random times and all have different musical interests. I have so many more accounts to spare so just you wait, this list will make it to the 100s!

Erik M. - 10.10.2013 at 22:15  
Written by LeKiwi on 10.10.2013 at 21:31

Well all the one's that aren't going to be added are simply removed, so that's not too hard

What I did to garner all those thumbs up is rather ingenious. All those "users" that +1'd my list are simply accounts that I created for the sole purpose of having the most popular list on MS. I've waited years for this plan to finally come to fruition. I also had to make all the accounts look legit, to avoid suspicion. Thus, all of them are created at random times and all have different musical interests. I have so many more accounts to spare so just you wait, this list will make it to the 100s!




You did a good job and the plan would've been ingenious if it wasn't for two things: the fact that you mention it now (you just blew your own cover! ) and the fast rate of gaining the thumbs ups. If you did it slower, then most people wouldn't have noticed it. Although I still notice such things of course.
LeKiwi - 10.10.2013 at 22:41  
Written by Erik M. on 10.10.2013 at 22:15

You did a good job and the plan would've been ingenious if it wasn't for two things: the fact that you mention it now (you just blew your own cover! ) and the fast rate of gaining the thumbs ups. If you did it slower, then most people wouldn't have noticed it. Although I still notice such things of course.

Just clarifying that what I said before was a joke, since it appears both of us are (possibly) playing it deadpan here. You have to remember that I spam this list quite a bit, hence it's popularity
Erik M. - 10.10.2013 at 22:44  
Written by LeKiwi on 10.10.2013 at 22:41

Just clarifying that what I said before was a joke, since it appears both of us are (possibly) playing it deadpan here. You have to remember that I spam this list quite a bit, hence it's popularity


Well, it was obvious for me that it was a joke, but I thought me playing along was pretty obvious as well. If what you said would've been true, then it would've been totally pathetic of course. And you know what to do to make it even more popular.
LeKiwi - 10.10.2013 at 22:54  
Written by Erik M. on 10.10.2013 at 22:44

Well, it was obvious for me that it was a joke, but I thought me playing along was pretty obvious as well. If what you said would've been true, then it would've been totally pathetic of course. And you know what to do to make it even more popular.

I just wanted to make sure, cultural differences and all, although it was pretty obivous Some people take things too seriously, just wanted to clear it up.
Erik M. - 12.10.2013 at 01:53  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 06.10.2013 at 22:59

I wasn't trying a score a +1 in my favour, and I was quite happy to carry this on because I genuinely wanted you see some kind of reason, but we appear to have hit the crux of your unwillingness to see another side of things: I'm (and therefore the majority of Metal Storm in actuality) are apparently "ignorant" and unable to understand your list and its workings. Primarily, it seems, because I'm not a vocalist. I suppose 99% of reviewers shouldn't be reviewing as they usually have no musical background. I can now understand why you are so assertive about how to approach the concept of "talent" and I see there was really no chance of you ever seeing another side to it.

I don't wish to be tarnished as someone who supposedly insults the other person as you have ascribed for "victory" (I don't think I did, but your responses have more than confirmed my allegations of arrogance, ten-fold) so I will of course stop my "disrespectful" "flooding" of your list, not least because you seem to have become slightly aggressive in how you are attempting to paint me as someone who is more concerned with attacking you personally, rather than someone trying to give a reasoned discussion about your omnipotent, and apparently fact-based opinions.

I am however quite glad to see you have revealed yourself in earnest, that you've essentially admitted in few uncertain terms that this is based in "fact" or that at least your opinions carry more weight than the plebs around you. It's an interesting insight


Wow, just wow... I just read the whole discussion (finally got to it) and I'm totally baffled. I have to say I totally agree with everything Joe said. I'm well aware that this discussion has ended quite some time ago, so I'm not looking for another discussion seeing as Joe pretty much said everything that could be said on this matter. For the record, he didn't really insult you by saying that you're arrogant. While you might have more insight and knowledge on whether a vocalist is talented or not, it is in fact arrogant to claim that a non-vocalist could never have such insight and knowledge. Hell, even if a vocalist like Fritillaria says you're wrong you refuted her opinion. Both of you are vocalists, that's a fact. Since she doesn't agree it means you can't be entirely objective. So it remains at least partially subjective and one can never be unbiased because you immediately compare a certain vocalist to other (similar) vocalists that you've previously heard, whether it's unconscious or not (in your case it's highly probable that it's unconscious though). I could go on with repeating stuff that's already been said, but I doubt it's of any use, so I'll just stop right now.

Just wanted to get that off my chest after reading that long discussion.
Kuroboshi - 12.10.2013 at 05:04  
By the way, not metal at all, but my probably favorite vocalist of all time is Jocke Berg in Kent, a Swedish pop rock band. Of course, no growls, but if you're interested, check out "Visslaren" or "Välgärningar och Illdåd" on youtube.
!J.O.O.E.! - 12.10.2013 at 13:19  
Written by Erik M. on 12.10.2013 at 01:53

Wow, just wow... I just read the whole discussion (finally got to it) and I'm totally baffled. I have to say I totally agree with everything Joe said. I'm well aware that this discussion has ended quite some time ago, so I'm not looking for another discussion seeing as Joe pretty much said everything that could be said on this matter. For the record, he didn't really insult you by saying that you're arrogant. While you might have more insight and knowledge on whether a vocalist is talented or not, it is in fact arrogant to claim that a non-vocalist could never have such insight and knowledge. Hell, even if a vocalist like Fritillaria says you're wrong you refuted her opinion. Both of you are vocalists, that's a fact. Since she doesn't agree it means you can't be entirely objective. So it remains at least partially subjective and one can never be unbiased because you immediately compare a certain vocalist to other (similar) vocalists that you've previously heard, whether it's unconscious or not (in your case it's highly probable that it's unconscious though). I could go on with repeating stuff that's already been said, but I doubt it's of any use, so I'll just stop right now.

Just wanted to get that off my chest after reading that long discussion.

It was clear once LeKiwi revealed himself to consider his opinion on the matter paramount because he's a vocalist (though in reality anyone could consider themselves a vocalist as it doesn't take talent to be one in all cases) that the conversation was always going to be one sided. He acted as though I was attacking him personally, which was never the case. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here and that calling himself as a witness to his own opinions was result of feeling like he was being backed into a corner. He doesn't seem to be the sort to act that like that usually from what I've seen of his posts.
!J.O.O.E.! - 12.10.2013 at 21:28  
Written by LeKiwi on 10.10.2013 at 04:37

This is a popular list for a reason

Yep, the reason being that you have virtually every popular artist from metal on here
LeKiwi - 12.10.2013 at 22:15  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 12.10.2013 at 21:28

Yep, the reason being that you have virtually every popular artist from metal on here

!J.O.O.E.! at his best, here to belittle me

Btw, here's something for reference: top 50 bands on MS
!J.O.O.E.! - 12.10.2013 at 22:42  
Written by LeKiwi on 12.10.2013 at 22:15

!J.O.O.E.! at his best, here to belittle me

Btw, here's something for reference: top 50 bands on MS

My point being that people will like a list if it has bands mentioned that they like. Doesn't take much to realise that this is very appealing to the general prog and power metal loving public. Don't underestimate them, especially if you add a new novelty twist to having them mentioned.

(But, incidentally, you do have quite a few of those in the top 50 )
LeKiwi - 12.10.2013 at 22:54  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 12.10.2013 at 22:42

My point being that people will like a list if it has bands mentioned that they like. Doesn't take much to realise that this is very appealing to the general prog and power metal loving public. Don't underestimate them, especially if you add a new novelty twist to having them mentioned.

(But, incidentally, you do have quite a few of those in the top 50 )

Quite a few is not equivalent to "virtually every"

Progressive metal has a trend towards garnering talented (and typically rather versatile) vocalists, so I have no doubt that fans of the genre will have an issue appreciating this list.
!J.O.O.E.! - 12.10.2013 at 22:59  
Written by LeKiwi on 12.10.2013 at 22:54

Quite a few is not equivalent to "virtually every"

Progressive metal has a trend towards garnering talented (and typically rather versatile) vocalists, so I have no doubt that fans of the genre will have an issue appreciating this list.

Geez, you really do seem to have an issue with prose. This is not the first time in this thread you have taken what I said to the extreme. I think it's quite apparent I didn't literally mean every, and most, popular artist on metal storm. It was merely a way of highlighting, through a little hyperbole, that this list has a leaning toward the popular.

It does consist mostly of that, yes. I think it'd be a more effective list if you limited amounts for each style to the very best and unique and encompass a wider range of styles. That's my personal preference of course.
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 00:03  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 12.10.2013 at 22:59

Geez, you really do seem to have an issue with prose. This is not the first time in this thread you have taken what I said to the extreme. I think it's quite apparent I didn't literally mean every, and most, popular artist on metal storm. It was merely a way of highlighting, through a little hyperbole, that this list has a leaning toward the popular.

It does consist mostly of that, yes. I think it'd be a more effective list if you limited amounts for each style to the very best and unique and encompass a wider range of styles. That's my personal preference of course.

Taken what you've said literally, you mean I have gripes with exaggerations used in a snide or insidious manner, that's all. Sure, several of the artists are here are popular (on MS), however there are lists that have just as many popular artists if not more, and yet receive less attention.

I do agree with having the top performing vocalists for each style, however actually accomplishing that would be difficult since most vocalists utilise a unique set of styles. Although, it's likely that I will trim this list down when I get the chance. A WIP, always :S
!J.O.O.E.! - 13.10.2013 at 00:14  
Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:03

I have gripes with exaggerations used in a snide or insidious manner, that's all.

Perhaps so, but not sure how responding to it in a way that derails the conversation into pure irrelevance is conducive to good discussion
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 00:20  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 13.10.2013 at 00:14

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:03

I have gripes with exaggerations used in a snide or insidious manner, that's all.

Perhaps so, but not sure how responding to it in a way that derails the conversation into pure irrelevance is conducive to good discussion

To deter you from using them (exaggerations) in such a manner that is simply non-constructive. I don't mind discussing issues with this list, but mocking isn't the right way to initiate such an exchange
!J.O.O.E.! - 13.10.2013 at 00:32  
Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:20

To deter you from using them (exaggerations) in such a manner that is simply non-constructive. I don't mind discussing issues with this list, but mocking isn't the right way to initiate such an exchange

I sincerely doubt that's the case. You frequently took things I said out of their context in our earlier discussion, and I sensed that you took these things in earnest. I recommend you deal with people at the manner in which they present themselves instead of trying to "deter" them from what would generally be regarded as comfortable levels of prose by most people. Thank you for trying to teach me a lesson though. In future I will try to display a little less personality.
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 00:53  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 13.10.2013 at 00:32

I sincerely doubt that's the case. You frequently took things I said out of their context in our earlier discussion, and I sensed that you took these things in earnest. I recommend you deal with people at the manner in which they present themselves instead of trying to "deter" them from what would generally be regarded as comfortable levels of prose by most people. Thank you for trying to teach me a lesson though. In future I will try to display a little less personality.

Just proved my point with your acceptable level of "prose". You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone. I've had discussions with plenty of users and I've hardly had any issues; you're a true exception. Due deference is all that I asked for, and in turn I've been mocked again. Clearly not the most mature user on this site...
!J.O.O.E.! - 13.10.2013 at 00:59  
Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:53

Just proved my point with your acceptable level of "prose". You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone. I've had discussions with plenty of users and I've hardly had any issues; you're a true exception. Due deference is all that I asked for, and in turn I've been mocked again. Clearly not the most mature user on this site...

I see my mild sarcasm (and that is all that it is) as a pretty natural response to your level of, shall we say, "confidence" in your own list and opinions

If I were to live up to your vision of me I would have called you autistic ages because you really do seem to have trouble dealing with me on any negotiable level. Apparently my every word seems to offend your sensibilities so I will kindly avoid your list from here on
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 01:12  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 13.10.2013 at 00:59

I see my mild sarcasm (and that is all that it is) as a pretty natural response to your level ofl, shall we say, "confidence" in your own list and opinions

If I were to live up to your vision of me I would have called you autistic ages because you really do seem to have trouble dealing with me on any negotiable level. Apparently my every word seems to offend your sensibilities so I will kindly avoid your list from here on

Do me a favour and reread some of the comments you posted on this thread; some rather snide sarcasm imo. I'm very well aware of what sarcasm is and I happen to use it all the time. The only difference is that I use it in good taste, not to derail the discussion into a spat. I've hardly been offended, I simply find it difficult to take a debate seriously when the other participant isn't being respectful. Sarcasm isn't appropriate when there is clear tension between two people.
Fritillaria - 13.10.2013 at 15:21  
Oh man ! I can't really keep me from saying that I've been on MS for almost 2 years, and all I can say that Joe had never ever had even a bit of any disrespecting or mocking intentions, although I am not a native speaker of English but I really can't get any intentions of mocking in his previous sentences on this list. Interestingly Joe is one of cool members who always bring lots of amazing stuffs which are not featured on MS... ah well I'm not trying to be partial and fuel any kind of new discussion.
!J.O.O.E.! - 13.10.2013 at 15:40  
Written by Fritillaria on 13.10.2013 at 15:21

Oh man ! I can't really keep me from saying that I've been on MS for almost 2 years, and all I can say that Joe had never ever had even a bit of any disrespecting or mocking intentions, although I am not a native speaker of English but I really can't get any intentions of mocking in his previous sentences on this list. Interestingly Joe is one of cool members who always bring lots of amazing stuffs which are not featured on MS... ah well I'm not trying to be partial and fuel any kind of new discussion.



I would be the first to admit I'm sarcastic and occasionally cutting but I'm not a troll. I don't mock people for the sake of it (at least not specific individuals. I may mock certain thought processes in groups). My sarcasm and tone on this thread were born out of LeKiwi's a) arrogant belief in his own opinions, b) condescending tone toward non-vocalists and their beliefs, c) attitude toward people that dare show any personality in their posts resulting in LeKiwi trying to "deter" them from it by taking everything they say literally, and d) self-assurance of the brilliance of his own list (which in my opinion is misplaced and I believe my initial point about including popular artists stands).
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 15:42  
Written by Fritillaria on 13.10.2013 at 15:21

Oh man ! I can't really keep me from saying that I've been on MS for almost 2 years, and all I can say that Joe had never ever had even a bit of any disrespecting or mocking intentions, although I am not a native speaker of English but I really can't get any intentions of mocking in his previous sentences on this list. Interestingly Joe is one of cool members who always bring lots of amazing stuffs which are not featured on MS... ah well I'm not trying to be partial and fuel any kind of new discussion.

Perhaps not to anyone else; I haven't bothered perusing through every single comment of his I know when I'm being mocked, and having lived in Britain for a while I've come to know such humour It's clear that he simply dislikes me, and that doesn't bother me. However using snide remarks to prove a point isn't really appropriate, mature discussions don't work like that.
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 15:57  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 13.10.2013 at 15:40

I would be the first to admit I'm sarcastic and occasionally cutting but I'm not a troll. I don't mock people for the sake of it (at least not specific individuals. I may mock certain thought processes in groups). My sarcasm and tone on this thread were born out of LeKiwi's a) arrogant belief in his own opinions, b) condescending tone toward non-vocalists and their beliefs, c) attitude toward people that dare show any personality in their posts resulting in LeKiwi trying to "deter" them from it by taking everything they say literally, and d) self-assurance of the brilliance of his own list (which in my opinion is misplaced and I believe my initial point about including popular artists stands).

Even if what you claim held true (which is doesn't), replying in a mocking manner isn't an appropriate or mature response. I can be swayed and I don't deny being proven wrong when I am; everyone has been at some point However, you or anyone has yet to convince me of anything concrete on the subject of talent, so thus my opinions stand. I have no issue admitting I'm wrong, I do that nearly every day in my life. You're simply offended that you've met your match.

You've yet to address the fact that other lists with a greater number of popular artists have received less of these ----> Empty claims....
!J.O.O.E.! - 13.10.2013 at 16:08  
Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 15:57

Even if what you claim held true (which is doesn't), replying in a mocking manner isn't an appropriate or mature response. I can be swayed and I don't deny being proven wrong when I am; everyone has been at some point However, you or anyone has yet to convince me of anything concrete on the subject of talent, so thus my opinions stand. I have no issue admitting I'm wrong, I do that nearly every day in my life. You're simply offended that you've met your match.



I think it's clear which one of us is offended. You've brought out the victim card at every opportunity If "met my match" is someone that is his own witness to apparently objective facts then I guess I have. You are beyond argument. I freely admit that and have done earlier in this thread. If you think that's something worth taking pride in then by all means go ahead.

Quote:
You've yet to address the fact that other lists with a greater number of popular artists have received less of these ----> Empty claims....


The answer to this is glaringly obvious: the majority of these lists are not advertised anywhere other than people's profiles and at the bottom of the album pages beneath the dozens of other more popular lists with more thumbs up. It's, perhaps ironically, the attention I've given you in numerous comments and consequent replies that have given this list front page status and maintained almost constantly on the forum front page as the most recently commented on list. That's why the comments more than doubled in the two or three days we spoke here. This + the popular oriented band make up of this list is why you have gained so many thumbs up. You don't even have descriptions. It's simply a number of well-known bands loosely tied together with a vague concept. Sorry if you don't realise this.
!J.O.O.E.! - 13.10.2013 at 16:14  
Anyway, I've been PMd by LeKiwi telling me to admit defeat because of my "bruised ego". If that's not a sign of a frustrated opponent I don't know what is that being said I think it really is time for me to leave LeKiwi alone. There's only so many times a person can declare his victory / my defeat without it becoming an embarrassing spectacle. I won't respond to any other replies on here, lest LeKiwi play the victim card further.
Fritillaria - 13.10.2013 at 16:43  
Wait, sarcasm is way different from mockery, but Lekiwi, you already made me to get surprisingly annoyed for the way you respond, however, this is your list and as you wish you can sort it but if you go back to the previous comments , you will know that actually I was one of the first ones who was pissed by your arrogant tone, and I just broke it up there, but maybe the way you get responses is related to the way you at first started to reply back.Anyhow, I don't think that anyone want to dislike you, I mean what kind of reason that could have, it's just the way yourself started to respond otherwise I don't think that anyone wants to have any feeling against you.
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 17:16  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 13.10.2013 at 16:08

I think it's clear which one of us is offended. You've brought out the victim card at every opportunity If "met my match" is someone that is his own witness to apparently objective facts then I guess I have. You are beyond argument. I freely admit that and have done earlier in this thread. If you think that's something worth taking pride in then by all means go ahead.


I've not been offended, in a very long time, you needn't worry about that. Your debating skills are lacking; your constant use of logical fallacies shows that you lack the reasoning to contradict my arguments. I never claimed that my opinions were facts, rather that they are objective. I may be stubborn, but shown opinions backed by facts, I can do naught but accept my error; that has yet to happen. It is you, who is beyond argument

Quote:

The answer to this is glaringly obvious: the majority of these lists are not advertised anywhere other than people's profiles and at the bottom of the album pages beneath the dozens of other more popular lists with more thumbs up. It's, perhaps ironically, the attention I've given you in numerous comments and consequent replies that have given this list front page status and maintained almost constantly on the forum front page as the most recently commented on list. That's why the comments more than doubled in the two or three days we spoke here. This + the popular oriented band make up of this list is why you have gained so many thumbs up. You don't even have descriptions. It's simply a number of well-known bands loosely tied together with a vague concept. Sorry if you don't realise this.


You're claiming that a large portion of the members who gave this list a +1 use the forum. Personally, I've never ventured into that niche of the website. Extending your opinions to those held by the entire user-base (as you have done before) is another logical fallacy. Arguably, it could be a contributing factor, but your claim of its popularity is unsound; over half the bands here could hardly be considered popular

Quote:

Anyway, I've been PMd by LeKiwi telling me to admit defeat because of my "bruised ego". If that's not a sign of a frustrated opponent I don't know what is that being said I think it really is time for me to leave LeKiwi alone. There's only so many times a person can declare his victory / my defeat without it becoming an embarrassing spectacle. I won't respond to any other replies on here, lest LeKiwi play the victim card further.


The fact that you had to announce that over here indicates a desperate attempt at preserving your public persona; seeking public support is rather unscrupulous. As stated before, I've yet to be affected by your comments in any negative manner since I happen to be able to debate in a mature and unemotional manner. Look up some debates on the internet to see how they're meant to be carried out. It appears you've taken the easy way out of discussion; shifting the blame to divert the attention the fact that you're unable to hold a proper discussion. Debates are meant to be a series of counterarguments following a single argument. Having discussed thoroughly with you, I've noticed your approach was leave the counterarguments I've presented unaddressed and focus on a new argument. You've essentially been too stubborn to admit you were wrong every time I've presented a plausible argument.
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 17:28  
Written by Fritillaria on 13.10.2013 at 16:43

Wait, sarcasm is way different from mockery, but Lekiwi, you already made me to get surprisingly annoyed for the way you respond, however, this is your list and as you wish you can sort it but if you go back to the previous comments , you will know that actually I was one of the first ones who was pissed by your arrogant tone, and I just broke it up there, but maybe the way you get responses is related to the way you at first started to reply back.Anyhow, I don't think that anyone want to dislike you, I mean what kind of reason that could have, it's just the way yourself started to respond otherwise I don't think that anyone wants to have any feeling against you.

The premise of sarcasm is mockery. Arrogance requires a degree of ignorance to be carried out, however as I stated before, I can be convinced - it simply takes solid reasoning to do so. If someone begins an argument, I take the matter seriously in that I discard emotions and simply reply with a counterargument. I state my opinions without sugar coating them. I speak as concisely as I can as I'm constantly endeavoring to improve my vocabulary and perhaps some users are offended by such a direct approach, and that is unfortunate.
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 17:40  
Written by Erik M. on 12.10.2013 at 01:53

Wow, just wow... I just read the whole discussion (finally got to it) and I'm totally baffled. I have to say I totally agree with everything Joe said. I'm well aware that this discussion has ended quite some time ago, so I'm not looking for another discussion seeing as Joe pretty much said everything that could be said on this matter. For the record, he didn't really insult you by saying that you're arrogant. While you might have more insight and knowledge on whether a vocalist is talented or not, it is in fact arrogant to claim that a non-vocalist could never have such insight and knowledge. Hell, even if a vocalist like Fritillaria says you're wrong you refuted her opinion. Both of you are vocalists, that's a fact. Since she doesn't agree it means you can't be entirely objective. So it remains at least partially subjective and one can never be unbiased because you immediately compare a certain vocalist to other (similar) vocalists that you've previously heard, whether it's unconscious or not (in your case it's highly probable that it's unconscious though). I could go on with repeating stuff that's already been said, but I doubt it's of any use, so I'll just stop right now.

Just wanted to get that off my chest after reading that long discussion.

I never said that non-vocalists couldn't have the insight that some vocalists have on the subject, I simply said that if you do not possess such insight, the result of making a list like this would likely be inaccurate. You could also use induction to determine which vocalists are talented; the insight simply helps confirm such theories. I would be open to discuss with Frit if she argued that one vocal style wasn't difficult to perform, and I'm sure we could come to a resolution. The basis of this list is comparison, that I agree with. However, everything in existence is relative, yet objectivity remains in many subjects. Simply because the list is based on relative performances, doesn't make the conclusions invalid, right?
Apothecary - 13.10.2013 at 18:36  
My one problem with this list, as Joe somewhat hinted at, is your inclusion of very popular, "mainstream" metal vocalists and almost complete exclusion of some extreme metal vocalists. Of course it's your list, and you have the right to include whoever you want, but I just find it a little contradictory that you're saying you're avoiding emotional delivery and the aural appeal of vocal lines, yet have included almost all clean vocalists on here. It does indeed give a very cliche aura of bias towards clean vocalists and more popular metal bands, and if you're going to focus on objective ability vocalist-wise, then let's not forget that vocalists can still growl, shriek, scream, etc. with creativity and talent. Just my personal opinion, but I think this list would seem a lot more mature and complete with the inclusion of some vocalists who do both (clean and extreme vocals), such as...

1. Joe Duplantier
2. Ihsahn
3. Jason Mendonca
4. Alexander Von Meilenwald
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 18:58  
Written by Apothecary on 13.10.2013 at 18:36

My one problem with this list, as Joe somewhat hinted at, is your inclusion of very popular, "mainstream" metal vocalists and almost complete exclusion of some extreme metal vocalists. Of course it's your list, and you have the right to include whoever you want, but I just find it a little contradictory that you're saying you're avoiding emotional delivery and the aural appeal of vocal lines, yet have included almost all clean vocalists on here. It does indeed give a very cliche aura of bias towards clean vocalists and more popular metal bands, and if you're going to focus on objective ability vocalist-wise, then let's not forget that vocalists can still growl, shriek, scream, etc. with creativity and talent. Just my personal opinion, but I think this list would seem a lot more mature and complete with the inclusion of some vocalists who do both (clean and extreme vocals), such as...

1. Joe Duplantier
2. Ihsahn
3. Jason Mendonca
4. Alexander Von Meilenwald

I will certainly have a look at the suggestions. Firstly, over half the list consists of bands which are hardly mainstream in relation to the fan-base on MS. Secondly, I only take into account the technical ability of the performed vocals (cleans in this argument) since the appeal of the vocal lines is highly subjective. I don't purposely exclude vocalists who focus on screams, however the scope of metal which I listen to tends towards prog. That's why I need suggestions like yours Remember, creativity isn't part of the criteria, lest this list become the subject of cutthroat spat
Apothecary - 13.10.2013 at 19:13  
Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 18:58

I only take into account the technical ability of the performed vocals (cleans in this argument)

You might want to include that as a little disclaimer in your intro, in that case
LeKiwi - 13.10.2013 at 19:18  
Written by Apothecary on 13.10.2013 at 19:13

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 18:58

I only take into account the technical ability of the performed vocals (cleans in this argument)

You might want to include that as a little disclaimer in your intro, in that case

Done
Erik M. - 14.10.2013 at 00:32  
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 12.10.2013 at 22:59

I think it'd be a more effective list if you limited amounts for each style to the very best and unique and encompass a wider range of styles. That's my personal preference of course.


Lol, seems like you two are at it again, eh? Anyway, I just wanted to say that your preference is the best for the sake of variety. However, I don't agree with it because then you'd have to ignore certain vocalists that do deserve to be on here. I think he should do like I did with my debut albums list: have albums (vocalists in his case) on it regardless of popularity. There's a lot of popular stuff but also way less-known albums to be found... although for someone like you those "unknown" albums are probably still quite well-known. Oh and lastly, I do agree with Joe that this list indeed mainly consists of the popular bands. And so what if those aren't in the top 50? Even bands in the top 250 could be considered (very) popular if you ask me (still 200+ fans here on MS). An example of a vocalist list with non-popular vocalists on it would be Fritillaria's list. She did a great job with it, even though many of the vocalists aren't to my liking. I still think that what she did is more difficult than what LeKiwi did here, since she even searched her own songs while you asked other to help you with finding the right song. Not strange or a bad thing of course, but I'm just pointing out the differences here. All in all, I like this list but as I said it's only really great for people who are mainly into progressive metal. So getting more variety is what this list needs.
Erik M. - 14.10.2013 at 00:49  
Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:53

Just proved my point with your acceptable level of "prose". You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone. I've had discussions with plenty of users and I've hardly had any issues; you're a true exception. Due deference is all that I asked for, and in turn I've been mocked again. Clearly not the most mature user on this site...


I'm not here defending Joe (I'm sure he doesn't need that as he apparently can manage fine without the support of anyone), but having read this endless discussion (which I am loving by the way, since I always enjoy discussions ) it seems your tone seems way more condescending than his, at least that is how it feels to me. Saying stuff like "You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone" and "Clearly not the most mature user on this site..." isn't helping your case here. Also, he ignores insults from you quite often and I'm actually surprised he can ignore them since I'm not sure if I could do that.

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 01:12

The only difference is that I use it in good taste, not to derail the discussion into a spat.


Except that this isn't true, as I just said. What might seem "good taste" to you doesn't necessarily mean that it means the same for everyone. In fact, it simply doesn't.

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 15:57

Even if what you claim held true (which is doesn't), replying in a mocking manner isn't an appropriate or mature response. I can be swayed and I don't deny being proven wrong when I am; everyone has been at some point However, you or anyone has yet to convince me of anything concrete on the subject of talent, so thus my opinions stand. I have no issue admitting I'm wrong, I do that nearly every day in my life. You're simply offended that you've met your match.

You've yet to address the fact that other lists with a greater number of popular artists have received less of these ----> Empty claims....


Except that you don't admit when you're wrong. Also, see the part I just bolded? Yep that's right, everything on this list has to do with your biased (yes, literally everyone is biased when it comes to judging music, whether you like it or not) opinions and NOT facts alone. The fact that you still don't understand or can't grasp this concept is one of the reasons that this discussion is still going on. Would you have just said "these vocalists are in my opinion very talented" or something like that, then you'd have less troubles with people like me, Joe and Fritillaria annoying you (but rightly so ). But instead you chose to defend your opinion that your opinions aren't opinions, but facts. It's your right to defend a certain point of view or opinion, but admitting defeat, which you still haven't done, shows of character and also shows you can be reasoned with. Now that you haven't admitted your wrong in any of the matters that were discussed definitely says something about it. I hate admitting I'm wrong as well and I can also be very stubborn, but if I would be in your position I would've been sensible and NOT ignored all the logical points that Joe and others (including me) have brought up. Lastly, Joe isn't really attacking this list (you don't seem to realize this), but he's "attacking" your behaviour. And while he said the list consists of mainly popular vocalists, this is still true, so what's so bad about him bringing it up. I wouldn't care if someone said that about my list if it would be the truth. It's only logical the list is popular because of the inclusion of popular bands (vocalists).

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 17:40

I never said that non-vocalists couldn't have the insight that some vocalists have on the subject, I simply said that if you do not possess such insight, the result of making a list like this would likely be inaccurate. You could also use induction to determine which vocalists are talented; the insight simply helps confirm such theories. I would be open to discuss with Frit if she argued that one vocal style wasn't difficult to perform, and I'm sure we could come to a resolution. The basis of this list is comparison, that I agree with. However, everything in existence is relative, yet objectivity remains in many subjects. Simply because the list is based on relative performances, doesn't make the conclusions invalid, right?


Well, I do agree a vocalist (like you or Fritillaria) is a better candidate for making a list like this. I'm not saying I can do a better job because I probably can't since I don't really care enough about vocalists to make a list like this. Although it had crossed my mind once making a list of my favourite female vocalists, but Fritillaria beat me to it and I could never do a better job than she did, except that I would also add popular vocalists simply because they deserve to be on it. She chose sticking by her own idea of the list over popularity, because I'm sure her list would be way more popular if she had included vocalists like Vibeke Stene, Tarja, Simone Simons, Floor Jansen etc. Just pointing out that having popular bands in a list simply makes the list more popular, most of the time. And to answer your final question: no, it doesn't make the inclusion (which is what you meant I think) of the vocalists invalid. I would even believe you're quite a good judge of measuring the talent of vocalists, don't get me wrong. The only issue I have is that you claim to be unbiased. And that is simply untrue because you said yourself everything is relative (which is true of course) and despite the fact that you might be more objective than someone else, you can never be 100% objective. I said this before and you simply ignored this.
LeKiwi - 14.10.2013 at 02:53  
Written by Erik M. on 14.10.2013 at 00:32

Lol, seems like you two are at it again, eh? Anyway, I just wanted to say that your preference is the best for the sake of variety. However, I don't agree with it because then you'd have to ignore certain vocalists that do deserve to be on here. I think he should do like I did with my debut albums list: have albums (vocalists in his case) on it regardless of popularity. There's a lot of popular stuff but also way less-known albums to be found... although for someone like you those "unknown" albums are probably still quite well-known. Oh and lastly, I do agree with Joe that this list indeed mainly consists of the popular bands. And so what if those aren't in the top 50? Even bands in the top 250 could be considered (very) popular if you ask me (still 200+ fans here on MS). An example of a vocalist list with non-popular vocalists on it would be Fritillaria's list. She did a great job with it, even though many of the vocalists aren't to my liking. I still think that what she did is more difficult than what LeKiwi did here, since she even searched her own songs while you asked other to help you with finding the right song. Not strange or a bad thing of course, but I'm just pointing out the differences here. All in all, I like this list but as I said it's only really great for people who are mainly into progressive metal. So getting more variety is what this list needs.

I'm in the process of adding dozens of vocalists so you can't claim that, since this list isn't complete. I like I said before, around half the list consists bands with a popularity index of less than 500 (less than 100 fans); you can check if you like. You have to remember that MS users generally have greater knowledge of such bands, so what can be considered "popular" here is relative. While I delve deep unto obscure progressive metal, however I rely upon the user suggestions to discover similarly less known bands in other sub-genres. If I wanted to make a list called "Decent Vocalists From Obscure Bands" I would have done what Fritillaria did; that is not my intention as was clear from the get go. I know of plenty relatively hidden bands with vocalists who are good, but nothing more. That's not to say she doesn't have any talented vocalists on her list because some of them are. Also I happen to be meticulous, so I refuse to put any song up, it has to be the ideal one. Those are the differences. I'm all for variety if the criteria is met and plenty of the pending considerations are vocalists of non-progressive metal bands. Time is what this list needs.
Quote:

I'm not here defending Joe (I'm sure he doesn't need that as he apparently can manage fine without the support of anyone), but having read this endless discussion (which I am loving by the way, since I always enjoy discussions ) it seems your tone seems way more condescending than his, at least that is how it feels to me. Saying stuff like "You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone" and "Clearly not the most mature user on this site..." isn't helping your case here. Also, he ignores insults from you quite often and I'm actually surprised he can ignore them since I'm not sure if I could do that.

Well you are doing so inadvertently, but I don't care if you take sides. Throughout our entire discussion, Joe has resorted to mockery to prove a point. I only began to point out the observations that you have quoted after he refused to discontinue said mockery. Up until the middle of the discussion I let his snide remarks slide; so, in fact, it is me who's been taking little heed to his unscrupulous behaviour. Go search the number of times he called me arrogant before I even mentioned any word related to immature; it will surprise you.
Quote:

Except that you don't admit when you're wrong. Also, see the part I just bolded? Yep that's right, everything on this list has to do with your biased (yes, literally everyone is biased when it comes to judging music, whether you like it or not) opinions and NOT facts alone. The fact that you still don't understand or can't grasp this concept is one of the reasons that this discussion is still going on. Would you have just said "these vocalists are in my opinion very talented" or something like that, then you'd have less troubles with people like me, Joe and Fritillaria annoying you (but rightly so ). But instead you chose to defend your opinion that your opinions aren't opinions, but facts. It's your right to defend a certain point of view or opinion, but admitting defeat, which you still haven't done, shows of character and also shows you can be reasoned with. Now that you haven't admitted your wrong in any of the matters that were discussed definitely says something about it. I hate admitting I'm wrong as well and I can also be very stubborn, but if I would be in your position I would've been sensible and NOT ignored all the logical points that Joe and others (including me) have brought up. Lastly, Joe isn't really attacking this list (you don't seem to realize this), but he's "attacking" your behaviour.

Bias is born of prejudice, which implies that you are indirectly noting that this list lacks a logical process. That is a false accusation since additions to this list are followed by a thorough examination a candidate's performance. If their performance excels with certain styles that are difficult to perform, then they are added. You're using the logical fallacy of overgeneralisation - just as Joe has - if you think that simply because you, Frit, Joe, and mz agree with each other, the implication is your arguments are of truth. I'd appreciate if you could show me a single occasion where you have deemed on of the arguments on this thread sufficiently sound to disprove what I have said. I'm reasonable enough to admit that my statements have been disproved when they have been. So go ahead and show me, please. Also, please give me a quote where I've shown such unwarranted behaviour.
Quote:

Well, I do agree a vocalist (like you or Fritillaria) is a better candidate for making a list like this. I'm not saying I can do a better job because I probably can't since I don't really care enough about vocalists to make a list like this. Although it had crossed my mind once making a list of my favourite female vocalists, but Fritillaria beat me to it and I could never do a better job than she did, except that I would also add popular vocalists simply because they deserve to be on it. She chose sticking by her own idea of the list over popularity, because I'm sure her list would be way more popular if she had included vocalists like Vibeke Stene, Tarja, Simone Simons, Floor Jansen etc. Just pointing out that having popular bands in a list simply makes the list more popular, most of the time. And to answer your final question: no, it doesn't make the inclusion (which is what you meant I think) of the vocalists invalid. I would even believe you're quite a good judge of measuring the talent of vocalists, don't get me wrong. The only issue I have is that you claim to be unbiased. And that is simply untrue because you said yourself everything is relative (which is true of course) and despite the fact that you might be more objective than someone else, you can never be 100% objective. I said this before and you simply ignored this.

I've already addressed the subject of popularity above. I want to fulfill the premise of this list and to do so I must include every vocalist who qualifies, popular or not. All human creations (as I said earlier in this thread) are prone to human error and the influences of the subconscious, and that includes this list. So at this point, it is certainly possible (and likely) that I've mistakenly added a vocalist who does not qualify; I'm just waiting for a user to point out which vocalist(s) that is and I'd be willing to discuss the reason for their inclusion and decide whether to maintain said inclusion. Once you become aware of which techniques exist and which are difficult to perform, then you have a sound basis for judging vocal talent accurately. This list is as objective as possible with the subject in question; I've even reduced the premise to focus on vocal technique. How do you see subjectivity influencing my list? For instance, do you imagine that I listen to some vocals and think, "Too easy to perform," or, "I don't like his sound" and then ignore them? To me it's clear which techniques are difficult so I don't really have an issue determining relative talent. I'm curious as to where you would note an personal involvement in the decision-making process.

Edit: If you want to get philosophical, everything is based on perception and preconceived notions and thus subjective. However, then even the definitions of words (including subjective) are subjective. What would the point be if we simply considered everything subjective. Without a point of reference, we would face chaos. Objectivity has to be assumed in cases where claims have yet to be disproved, as with this list. I don't see the point in arguing if you hold that perspective, so I will agree with you that this list is purely subjective.
LeKiwi - 14.10.2013 at 04:45  
Written by Apothecary on 13.10.2013 at 18:36

1. Joe Duplantier
2. Ihsahn
3. Jason Mendonca
4. Alexander Von Meilenwald

I've just added Joe, Ihsahn, and Jason although the first and last have been ascribed different tracks than suggested.

Alex has some deep and resonant cleans with a pretty average scream. In order to make a valid judgement, I would have to hear him perform unharmonised cleans. Can such a performance be found?
Boxcar Willy - 14.10.2013 at 07:09  
In other news, Oli Sykes has quite the voice. Anything from gutturals to cleans. He would be a great addition.

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