Written by LeKiwi on 09.10.2013 at 01:54

I'm too tired of arguing at this point. How about you give me an example of a versatile vocalist (say Moonspell's) accompanied with a track or several for that matter. If you can't think of one or can't be bothered, then define versatility for me.

My point is: it's almost impossible to judge the vocalists because you don't know all of them enough to do so. Your definition of versatility is pretty accurate I'd say, no problems with that.

I'm going to recommend Tom Sedotschenko for the ??th time again then:





Any of those (or both) tracks are good examples in my opinion (but I'd choose the first one). Too bad the first vocals you hear in the 2nd song aren't in the first song (link I posted in this message), because then it would've been the perfect song for your list (with all his vocal styles).

Edit: actually this track (which I recommended to you in my very first comment) might be the best choice for your list, since it also has the more emotional vocals (I'm talking about the vocals at 2:05... truly magnificent vocals to my ears):

Written by Erik M. on 09.10.2013 at 02:08

My point is: it's almost impossible to judge the vocalists because you don't know all of them enough to do so. Your definition of versatility is pretty accurate I'd say, no problems with that.

I'm going to recommend Tom Sedotschenko for the ??th time again then:





Any of those (or both) tracks are good examples in my opinion (but I'd choose the first one). Too bad the first vocals you hear in the 2nd song aren't in the first song (link I posted in this message), because then it would've been the perfect song for your list (with all his vocal styles).

Edit: actually this track (which I recommended to you in my very first comment) might be the best choice for your list, since it also has the more emotional vocals (I'm talking about the vocals at 2:05... truly magnificent vocals to my ears):

Well, he definitely has talent, just wait until I do the next update. Regarding the Tom's vocals, I've heard 4 vocal styles as of yet. Cleans (low to mid range), screams (low to high), screams to pitch (low to mid), and belted cleans (low to mid.) In all technicality I could include the whispers and spoken-word but...

When compared to say Wintersun's vocalist, whom everyone here belittles, he doesn't have as many. Jari does regular cleans (low to high), belted cleans (low to high), screams (low to high), screams to pitch (mid-high), cleans with slight applied fry (low-high), falsetto (high), and his open-throat (low). Jari is very talented and versatile - that's 7 styles - despite that he is frequently dismissed since he most frequently uses a high scream. Being versatile doesn't require it to be utilised all the time.

Most of the vocalists on my list use between 3 to 4 styles, I can't star them all can I? I have to star the best However you are correct about one part; I will never hear the true versatility of each vocalist, only much of the band's music that I hear. That's why I'm relying on the users to prove to me which vocalists deserve stars. I will make that apparent above now.

Written by LeKiwi on 09.10.2013 at 02:59

Well, he definitely has talent, just wait until I do the next update. Regarding the Tom's vocals, I've heard 4 vocal styles as of yet. Cleans (low to mid range), screams (low to high), screams to pitch (low to mid), and belted cleans (low to mid.) In all technicality I could include the whispers and spoken-word but...

When compared to say Wintersun's vocalist, whom everyone here belittles, he doesn't have as many. Jari does regular cleans (low to high), belted cleans (low to high), screams (low to high), screams to pitch (mid-high), cleans with slight applied fry (low-high), falsetto (high), and his open-throat (low). Jari is very talented and versatile - that's 7 styles - despite that he is frequently dismissed since he most frequently uses a high scream. Being versatile doesn't require it to be utilised all the time.

Most of the vocalists on my list use between 3 to 4 styles, I can't star them all can I? I have to star the best However you are correct about one part; I will never hear the true versatility of each vocalist, only much of the band's music that I hear. That's why I'm relying on the users to prove to me which vocalists deserve stars. I will make that apparent above now.

Good to see you became sensible after all and added Tom, which should've been a no-brainer for a list like this. I'm not going to argue over how many vocals styles certain vocalists have because I simple don't feel like analysing the vocals like that. Even though you said Jari has 7 vocal styles and Tom has "only" 4 (I think he has more though), it still feels like Tom is more versatile since his vocal styles differ more from each other, whereas some of Jari's vocal styles are pretty similar so it's hard to hear the difference between them.

And I still stand by saying that the star concept is a bad idea because of what I said. I honestly don't see why it would be a bad thing to indicate your own personal favourites. But this is the last time I'll mention this, because I already said it multiple times and I don't think repeating myself would do any good.

So now that is dealt with, I can give you some suggestions on the pending vocalists or not-yet-added vocalists.

Arcturus: this is truly a no-brainer, as it is easily the best song vocal-wise by the band and arguably the greatest song they ever made (it's my favourite as well as Fredd's ): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1opjmuiHWw

Candlemass: easily one of the best songs by the band for me and a total classic (Nile used it for Unas Slayer of the Gods, as I mentioned): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmV9MsFnUbk

Cradle of Filth: despite the fact that I'm not into CoF anymore, I feel this track might be a very good representation of his vocals, seeing his regular screams are heard, but also his "talking" voice and very deep growls etc. (still an awesome track): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHmqL_-AK6M

Isole: Marcel might know a song with growls but I don't know a song like that yet, so here's a good suggestion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPD5wert0iI Not a very versatile vocalist, but great at what he does.

Lake of Tears: here is a track that has his great clean vocals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KENQTP1Seac and here with his harsher vocals (not growls): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZPMveQdVTU (this last one is probably the best choice because it also has totally clean vocals). It's been a while since I fully listened to that album, but I'm pretty sure that's the album you're looking for when searching for the best vocals since on the album Headstones there aren't any (or barely) vocals like those heard in the first song I linked in this message.

My Dying Bride: here it goes again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iolc0D_Dx90 MDB just has a huge amount of songs to choose from and even for me it's hard to decide which one, but this song is definitely one of the best songs I can think of since you'll hear many different vocal styles here, so judge for yourself. This is also easily one of the best, if not THE best MDB album of them all.

Novembers Doom: not sure which track actually stands out vocal-wise but most tracks on this album qualify: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqb3lbKqhFI

Yearning: one of my favourite songs by the band and from their best album: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvXLhVuX1xI It features his clean vocals as well as his growls, so check it out.

Taking things too far 101.

Written by Boxcar Willy on 10.10.2013 at 04:17

Taking things too far 101.

A lack of appreciation for the attention to detail on your part. This is a popular list for a reason

I can't believe he hasn't even been mentioned yet.



...Considering Midnight owns maybe half the vocalists on this list.

For instance:




Also, burn on Willy. I appreciate the hard work that is put into this list. Shows good quality, effort and dedication on your part.

Written by Guest on 10.10.2013 at 04:46

I can't believe he hasn't even been mentioned yet...Considering Midnight owns maybe half the vocalists on this list.

Cheers for the suggestion, one hell of a voice there He's on the pending consideration until I do the next update.

Written by Boxcar Willy on 10.10.2013 at 04:17

Taking things too far 101.

Kind of, yeah... Not talking about the length of the list, but mainly the huge discription that is kind of irrelevant seeing as those Youtube links also could be added in the list itself (like Fritillaria has). That way, one doesn't have to scroll up and down constantly if they're looking for a certain album or song, which is way better than how it is now if you ask me. The pending vocalists I would also remove because they are totally irrelevant, since they aren't in the actual list (yet). LeKiwi could just have those in a Word-file (like I have with suggestions for my lists) instead of in the desciption. And the stars I could also do without. But of course everything what I just said is my opinion and knowing LeKiwi, he will simply ignore my advice.

Written by Erik M. on 10.10.2013 at 17:39

Written by Boxcar Willy on 10.10.2013 at 04:17

Taking things too far 101.

Kind of, yeah... Not talking about the length of the list, but mainly the huge discription that is kind of irrelevant seeing as those Youtube links also could be added in the list itself (like Fritillaria has). That way, one doesn't have to scroll up and down constantly if they're looking for a certain album or song, which is way better than how it is now if you ask me. The pending vocalists I would also remove because they are totally irrelevant, since they aren't in the actual list (yet). LeKiwi could just have those in a Word-file (like I have with suggestions for my lists) instead of in the desciption. And the stars I could also do without. But of course everything what I just said is my opinion and knowing LeKiwi, he will simply ignore my advice.

The links wouldn't be clickable if they were alongside the albums. That's the only reason they're in the description. Otherwise you'd have to copy paste the link, which is annoying The pending vocalists list is there to make contributors appreciated, prevent redundant suggestions, and help people make song suggestions. So, it's very useful indeed Also considering all of the s .....

Written by LeKiwi on 10.10.2013 at 21:04

The links wouldn't be clickable if they were alongside the albums. That's the only reason they're in the description. Otherwise you'd have to copy paste the link, which is annoying The pending vocalists list is there to make contributors appreciated, prevent redundant suggestions, and help people make song suggestions. So, it's very useful indeed Also considering all of the s .....

I know they aren't clickable when they're in the list. Constantly scrolling up and down is way more annoying than just having to copy and paste a link, but you (and others) probably disagree with that. Just giving you my opinion on the matter. The pending vocalists might go on the list or they might not, so that's why I don't think it's very relevant. But then again, for song suggestions it's indeed helpful, so I agree with that. And yeah, I remember this list having only +7 a week (or maybe longer) ago, so how did that happen?

Written by Erik M. on 10.10.2013 at 21:13

I know they aren't clickable when they're in the list. Constantly scrolling up and down is way more annoying than just having to copy and paste a link, but you (and others) probably disagree with that. Just giving you my opinion on the matter. The pending vocalists might go on the list or they might not, so that's why I don't think it's very relevant. But then again, for song suggestions it's indeed helpful, so I agree with that. And yeah, I remember this list having only +7 a week (or maybe longer) ago, so how did that happen?

Well all the one's that aren't going to be added are simply removed, so that's not too hard

What I did to garner all those thumbs up is rather ingenious. All those "users" that +1'd my list are simply accounts that I created for the sole purpose of having the most popular list on MS. I've waited years for this plan to finally come to fruition. I also had to make all the accounts look legit, to avoid suspicion. Thus, all of them are created at random times and all have different musical interests. I have so many more accounts to spare so just you wait, this list will make it to the 100s!

Written by LeKiwi on 10.10.2013 at 21:31

Well all the one's that aren't going to be added are simply removed, so that's not too hard

What I did to garner all those thumbs up is rather ingenious. All those "users" that +1'd my list are simply accounts that I created for the sole purpose of having the most popular list on MS. I've waited years for this plan to finally come to fruition. I also had to make all the accounts look legit, to avoid suspicion. Thus, all of them are created at random times and all have different musical interests. I have so many more accounts to spare so just you wait, this list will make it to the 100s!

You did a good job and the plan would've been ingenious if it wasn't for two things: the fact that you mention it now (you just blew your own cover! ) and the fast rate of gaining the thumbs ups. If you did it slower, then most people wouldn't have noticed it. Although I still notice such things of course.

Written by Erik M. on 10.10.2013 at 22:15

You did a good job and the plan would've been ingenious if it wasn't for two things: the fact that you mention it now (you just blew your own cover! ) and the fast rate of gaining the thumbs ups. If you did it slower, then most people wouldn't have noticed it. Although I still notice such things of course.

Just clarifying that what I said before was a joke, since it appears both of us are (possibly) playing it deadpan here. You have to remember that I spam this list quite a bit, hence its popularity

Written by LeKiwi on 10.10.2013 at 22:41

Just clarifying that what I said before was a joke, since it appears both of us are (possibly) playing it deadpan here. You have to remember that I spam this list quite a bit, hence it's popularity

Well, it was obvious for me that it was a joke, but I thought me playing along was pretty obvious as well. If what you said would've been true, then it would've been totally pathetic of course. And you know what to do to make it even more popular.

Written by Erik M. on 10.10.2013 at 22:44

Well, it was obvious for me that it was a joke, but I thought me playing along was pretty obvious as well. If what you said would've been true, then it would've been totally pathetic of course. And you know what to do to make it even more popular.

I just wanted to make sure, cultural differences and all, although it was pretty obivous Some people take things too seriously, just wanted to clear it up.

Written by Guest on 06.10.2013 at 22:59

I wasn't trying a score a +1 in my favour, and I was quite happy to carry this on because I genuinely wanted you see some kind of reason, but we appear to have hit the crux of your unwillingness to see another side of things: I'm (and therefore the majority of Metal Storm in actuality) are apparently "ignorant" and unable to understand your list and its workings. Primarily, it seems, because I'm not a vocalist. I suppose 99% of reviewers shouldn't be reviewing as they usually have no musical background. I can now understand why you are so assertive about how to approach the concept of "talent" and I see there was really no chance of you ever seeing another side to it.

I don't wish to be tarnished as someone who supposedly insults the other person as you have ascribed for "victory" (I don't think I did, but your responses have more than confirmed my allegations of arrogance, ten-fold) so I will of course stop my "disrespectful" "flooding" of your list, not least because you seem to have become slightly aggressive in how you are attempting to paint me as someone who is more concerned with attacking you personally, rather than someone trying to give a reasoned discussion about your omnipotent, and apparently fact-based opinions.

I am however quite glad to see you have revealed yourself in earnest, that you've essentially admitted in few uncertain terms that this is based in "fact" or that at least your opinions carry more weight than the plebs around you. It's an interesting insight

Wow, just wow... I just read the whole discussion (finally got to it) and I'm totally baffled. I have to say I totally agree with everything Joe said. I'm well aware that this discussion has ended quite some time ago, so I'm not looking for another discussion seeing as Joe pretty much said everything that could be said on this matter. For the record, he didn't really insult you by saying that you're arrogant. While you might have more insight and knowledge on whether a vocalist is talented or not, it is in fact arrogant to claim that a non-vocalist could never have such insight and knowledge. Hell, even if a vocalist like Fritillaria says you're wrong you refuted her opinion. Both of you are vocalists, that's a fact. Since she doesn't agree it means you can't be entirely objective. So it remains at least partially subjective and one can never be unbiased because you immediately compare a certain vocalist to other (similar) vocalists that you've previously heard, whether it's unconscious or not (in your case it's highly probable that it's unconscious though). I could go on with repeating stuff that's already been said, but I doubt it's of any use, so I'll just stop right now.

Just wanted to get that off my chest after reading that long discussion.

By the way, not metal at all, but my probably favorite vocalist of all time is Jocke Berg in Kent, a Swedish pop rock band. Of course, no growls, but if you're interested, check out "Visslaren" or "Välgärningar och Illdåd" on youtube.

Written by Erik M. on 12.10.2013 at 01:53

Wow, just wow... I just read the whole discussion (finally got to it) and I'm totally baffled. I have to say I totally agree with everything Joe said. I'm well aware that this discussion has ended quite some time ago, so I'm not looking for another discussion seeing as Joe pretty much said everything that could be said on this matter. For the record, he didn't really insult you by saying that you're arrogant. While you might have more insight and knowledge on whether a vocalist is talented or not, it is in fact arrogant to claim that a non-vocalist could never have such insight and knowledge. Hell, even if a vocalist like Fritillaria says you're wrong you refuted her opinion. Both of you are vocalists, that's a fact. Since she doesn't agree it means you can't be entirely objective. So it remains at least partially subjective and one can never be unbiased because you immediately compare a certain vocalist to other (similar) vocalists that you've previously heard, whether it's unconscious or not (in your case it's highly probable that it's unconscious though). I could go on with repeating stuff that's already been said, but I doubt it's of any use, so I'll just stop right now.

Just wanted to get that off my chest after reading that long discussion.

It was clear once LeKiwi revealed himself to consider his opinion on the matter paramount because he's a vocalist (though in reality anyone could consider themselves a vocalist as it doesn't take talent to be one in all cases) that the conversation was always going to be one sided. He acted as though I was attacking him personally, which was never the case. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here and that calling himself as a witness to his own opinions was result of feeling like he was being backed into a corner. He doesn't seem to be the sort to act that like that usually from what I've seen of his posts.

Written by LeKiwi on 10.10.2013 at 04:37

This is a popular list for a reason

Yep, the reason being that you have virtually every popular artist from metal on here

Written by Guest on 12.10.2013 at 21:28

Yep, the reason being that you have virtually every popular artist from metal on here

!J.O.O.E.! at his best, here to belittle me

Btw, here's something for reference: top 50 bands on MS

Written by LeKiwi on 12.10.2013 at 22:15

!J.O.O.E.! at his best, here to belittle me

Btw, here's something for reference: top 50 bands on MS

My point being that people will like a list if it has bands mentioned that they like. Doesn't take much to realise that this is very appealing to the general prog and power metal loving public. Don't underestimate them, especially if you add a new novelty twist to having them mentioned.

(But, incidentally, you do have quite a few of those in the top 50 )

Written by Guest on 12.10.2013 at 22:42

My point being that people will like a list if it has bands mentioned that they like. Doesn't take much to realise that this is very appealing to the general prog and power metal loving public. Don't underestimate them, especially if you add a new novelty twist to having them mentioned.

(But, incidentally, you do have quite a few of those in the top 50 )

Quite a few is not equivalent to "virtually every"

Progressive metal has a trend towards garnering talented (and typically rather versatile) vocalists, so I have no doubt that fans of the genre will have an issue appreciating this list.

Written by LeKiwi on 12.10.2013 at 22:54

Quite a few is not equivalent to "virtually every"

Progressive metal has a trend towards garnering talented (and typically rather versatile) vocalists, so I have no doubt that fans of the genre will have an issue appreciating this list.

Geez, you really do seem to have an issue with prose. This is not the first time in this thread you have taken what I said to the extreme. I think it's quite apparent I didn't literally mean every, and most, popular artist on metal storm. It was merely a way of highlighting, through a little hyperbole, that this list has a leaning toward the popular.

It does consist mostly of that, yes. I think it'd be a more effective list if you limited amounts for each style to the very best and unique and encompass a wider range of styles. That's my personal preference of course.

Written by Guest on 12.10.2013 at 22:59

Geez, you really do seem to have an issue with prose. This is not the first time in this thread you have taken what I said to the extreme. I think it's quite apparent I didn't literally mean every, and most, popular artist on metal storm. It was merely a way of highlighting, through a little hyperbole, that this list has a leaning toward the popular.

It does consist mostly of that, yes. I think it'd be a more effective list if you limited amounts for each style to the very best and unique and encompass a wider range of styles. That's my personal preference of course.

Taken what you've said literally, you mean I have gripes with exaggerations used in a snide or insidious manner, that's all. Sure, several of the artists are here are popular (on MS), however there are lists that have just as many popular artists if not more, and yet receive less attention.

I do agree with having the top performing vocalists for each style, however actually accomplishing that would be difficult since most vocalists utilise a unique set of styles. Although, it's likely that I will trim this list down when I get the chance. A WIP, always :S

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:03

I have gripes with exaggerations used in a snide or insidious manner, that's all.

Perhaps so, but not sure how responding to it in a way that derails the conversation into pure irrelevance is conducive to good discussion

Written by Guest on 13.10.2013 at 00:14

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:03

I have gripes with exaggerations used in a snide or insidious manner, that's all.

Perhaps so, but not sure how responding to it in a way that derails the conversation into pure irrelevance is conducive to good discussion

To deter you from using them (exaggerations) in such a manner that is simply non-constructive. I don't mind discussing issues with this list, but mocking isn't the right way to initiate such an exchange

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:20

To deter you from using them (exaggerations) in such a manner that is simply non-constructive. I don't mind discussing issues with this list, but mocking isn't the right way to initiate such an exchange

I sincerely doubt that's the case. You frequently took things I said out of their context in our earlier discussion, and I sensed that you took these things in earnest. I recommend you deal with people at the manner in which they present themselves instead of trying to "deter" them from what would generally be regarded as comfortable levels of prose by most people. Thank you for trying to teach me a lesson though. In future I will try to display a little less personality.

Written by Guest on 13.10.2013 at 00:32

I sincerely doubt that's the case. You frequently took things I said out of their context in our earlier discussion, and I sensed that you took these things in earnest. I recommend you deal with people at the manner in which they present themselves instead of trying to "deter" them from what would generally be regarded as comfortable levels of prose by most people. Thank you for trying to teach me a lesson though. In future I will try to display a little less personality.

Just proved my point with your acceptable level of "prose". You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone. I've had discussions with plenty of users and I've hardly had any issues; you're a true exception. Due deference is all that I asked for, and in turn I've been mocked again. Clearly not the most mature user on this site...

Written by LeKiwi on 13.10.2013 at 00:53

Just proved my point with your acceptable level of "prose". You're incapable of having a discussion without that condescending tone. I've had discussions with plenty of users and I've hardly had any issues; you're a true exception. Due deference is all that I asked for, and in turn I've been mocked again. Clearly not the most mature user on this site...

I see my mild sarcasm (and that is all that it is) as a pretty natural response to your level of, shall we say, "confidence" in your own list and opinions

If I were to live up to your vision of me I would have called you autistic ages because you really do seem to have trouble dealing with me on any negotiable level. Apparently my every word seems to offend your sensibilities so I will kindly avoid your list from here on

Written by Guest on 13.10.2013 at 00:59

I see my mild sarcasm (and that is all that it is) as a pretty natural response to your level ofl, shall we say, "confidence" in your own list and opinions

If I were to live up to your vision of me I would have called you autistic ages because you really do seem to have trouble dealing with me on any negotiable level. Apparently my every word seems to offend your sensibilities so I will kindly avoid your list from here on

Do me a favour and reread some of the comments you posted on this thread; some rather snide sarcasm imo. I'm very well aware of what sarcasm is and I happen to use it all the time. The only difference is that I use it in good taste, not to derail the discussion into a spat. I've hardly been offended, I simply find it difficult to take a debate seriously when the other participant isn't being respectful. Sarcasm isn't appropriate when there is clear tension between two people.