Written by psykometal on 05.09.2013 at 18:53

And I agree with you that "Avantgarde Progressive" is absurd due to the very nature of the term "Avantgarde". However you and Marcel appear to be indicating that "Avantarde Metal" can not be a standalone genre, that the term "Avantgarde" can only be used as a prefix (ie Avantgarde Black, Avantgarde Death, Avantgarde Thrash, etc.), which I disagree with. So I was merely attempting to indicate how absurd I feel calling those two albums "Avantgarde BM" is.

And I agree there are SOME BM aesthetics and moments in those album, but nowhere near enough to call those albums "Avantgarde BM", just "Avantgarde Metal".

Not really sure how your argument applies. avant-garde black is a thing (a very common thing). Avant-garde prog is not. What point are you trying to make? Due to its vague nature and lack of uniform qualities "avant-garde" is very rarely a standalone genre. The very reason Arcturus could be considered avant-gard black is because the black elements are so distorted. That's the nature of avant-garde music. Regardless the black elements are most definitely there.

Written by Guest on 05.09.2013 at 18:56

Not really sure how your argument applies. avant-garde black is a thing (a very common thing). Avant-garde prog is not. What point are you trying to make? Due to its vague nature and lack of uniform qualities "avant-garde" is very rarely a standalone genre. The very reason Arcturus could be considered avant-gard black is because the black elements are so distorted. That's the nature of avant-garde music. Regardless the black elements are most definitely there.

Not saying "Avantgarde BM" isn't a thing (I know it's very common), I'm saying that I disagree that the BM elements in LMI and TSM are not enough to warrant calling those albums "Avantgarde BM". Imo those albums are "Avantgarde Metal", the only full length album in their discog I consider "Avantgarde BM" was Aspera Hiems Symfonia. Thought that was fairly clear in my agument, but apparently not. *shrug*

Written by psykometal on 05.09.2013 at 19:10

Not saying "Avantgarde BM" isn't a thing (I know it's very common), I'm saying that I disagree that the BM elements in LMI and TSM are enough to warrant calling those albums "Avantgarde BM". Imo those albums are "Avantgarde Metal", the only full length album in their discog I consider "Avantgarde BM" was Aspera Hiems Symfonia. Thought that was fairly clear in my agument, but apparently not. *shrug*

I got your argument, I just don't understand your point about "avant-garde progressive metal." It doesn't illustrate your point at all as it implies that avant-garde black can never exist, not that it doesn't exist in this particular instance which is what your whole point was about.

Written by Guest on 05.09.2013 at 19:14

I got your argument, I just don't understand your point about "avant-garde progressive metal." It doesn't illustrate your point at all as it implies that avant-garde black can never exist, not that it doesn't exist in this particular instance which is what your whole point was about.

Oh that. Well as I said, y'all appeared to be indicating that "using 'Avantgarde' as a standalone genre is not right, because it's only a prefix". So I wasn't trying to argue that we should call them "Avantgarde Progressive" (as MA does), just that if they can't be called Avantgarde Metal, and I don't agree with calling them Avantgarde BM then what else could I call them that is NOT Avantgarde BM and is NOT Avantgarde Metal and adheres to y'all's belief that Avantgarde HAS to be used a prefix? The only other prefix usage I could think of, that even remotely made more sense than Avantgarde BM, would be Avantgarde Progressive. Not saying at all that "Avantgarde BM" can't exist, just that "Avantgarde BM" is the wrong genre tag for Arcturus as of LMI.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 05.09.2013 at 18:48

Way to rip that list Marcel hahahaha. Welp... I like Ulver's debut. xD
Anyways, nice list mz.

Thank you, I'm enjoying the argument despite the fact that Joe and Marcel can defend my side better than myself

We all agree that there are some BM elements throne into TSM. The point is that we can not measure the amount of this elements. I mean, we have botanist called avat black here. One can not say that the amount of BM elements in botanist's sound is sufficient enough to call them BM and on the other hand,that they are not enough in the case of TSM. There is not a measure and standard to compare everything with it in this regard.It is Avantgarde and it has BM aesthetic feeling so I think it's Avantgarde BM.

Written by psykometal on 05.09.2013 at 19:47

Oh that. Well as I said, y'all appeared to be indicating that "using 'Avantgarde' as a standalone genre is not right, because it's only a prefix". So I wasn't trying to argue that we should call them "Avantgarde Progressive" (as MA does), just that if they can't be called Avantgarde Metal, and I don't agree with calling them Avantgarde BM then what else could I call them that is NOT Avantgarde BM and is NOT Avantgarde Metal and adheres to y'all's belief that Avantgarde HAS to be used a prefix? The only other prefix usage I could think of, that even remotely made more sense than Avantgarde BM, would be Avantgarde Progressive. Not saying at all that "Avantgarde BM" can't exist, just that "Avantgarde BM" is the wrong genre tag for Arcturus as of LMI.

Well I never said it could never be used as a standalone genre, only that it is rare. Because Arcturus retains much of its early black metal style avant-garde becomes the modifier for those black metal elements.

I don't know why avant-progressive would be the first leap you would make even if it was just to make some kind of point. Arcturus clearly has black metal in the majority of their albums, but it doesn't have any kind of progressive metal in. It seems a very confused and laboured point to me.

I had prepared myself for debates on P.H.O.B.O.S album not TSM

Well I'd say that me, Joe, and Rodrigo (Mr. Doctor) are probably your main guys to go to for all the weird, experimental BM. For this list, might I suggest...
1. Hail Spirit Noir: Pneuma (more prog rock-ish than black metal, but still a really fantastic album)
2. Kvelertak: Meir (punk-ish black metal, gets into that whole "black and roll" sound)
3. Klabautamann: Merkur (good German atmospheric BM)
4. Any Meads Of Asphodel album... The Murder Of Jesus The Jew is usually hailed as the best, but I prefer Sonderkommando personally

These are all on my Unorthodox Black Metal list by the way, which I see you've checked out already
As for Oranssi Pazuzu, Kosmonument is much crazier and darkly psychedelic than Muukalainen Puhuu. And with The Ruins Of Beverast, it really just depends on what you're looking for... no album is bad, pre-Foulest is just more blackened, and post-Foulest is more doom-y.

Written by Guest on 05.09.2013 at 20:00

Well I never said it could never be used as a standalone genre, only that it is rare. Because Arcturus retains much of its early black metal style avant-garde becomes the modifier for those black metal elements.

I don't know why avant-progressive would be the first leap you would make even if it was just to make some kind of point. Arcturus clearly has black metal in the majority of their albums, but it doesn't have any kind of progressive metal in. It seems a very confused and laboured point to me.

Well it wasn't very labored in my head, it made perfect sense. Unfortunately it became labored because you didn't understand my point.

My main point was that I disagree with the both of you entirely that the BM elements in those 2 albums are anywhere near enough to just modify the BM tag. Imo, the albums are Avantgarde Metal, not Avantgarde Black Metal.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 05.09.2013 at 05:23

recommend some more standard bm albums, and for some bands even inferior ones. Espcieally, Ulver, Old Man's Child, Limbonic Art (although it is still good), everythigng by Inquisition, wannbeees Graveworm who have never released anything worthwhile in this genre, Dordeduh who are vastly inferior to anything those band members did in Negura Bunget, Dimmu Borgir, you recommend their first truly weak album? wth? Caladan Brood pure Summoning rip off only of interest to die hard Summoning fans, Arcturus when La Masquerade Infernale is vastly superior to this one which is all over the place and has loads of off-key moments in all the music. Let those first to be heard by classical music musicians and they'll cringe when they hear the debut and applaud the second album. That's where they reached what they tried to achieve and failed with their debut at.

So what if I recommended supposedly "standard" BM albums? If he (mz) hasn't heard them and the style appeals to him, then it's all that matters since I gave him suggestions, not anyone else. If the style doesn't appeal to him, then he won't check 'em out, no harm done. Whether these albums/bands are standard or not is irrelevant; it matters that the music is good. Funnily enough, lots of albums on this list are quite standard as well when it comes to the BM taste of staff/elites on MS, which is also becoming quite predictable and thus boring. Unlike me, it seems you don't enjoy symphonic/atmospheric BM, so that's why a lot of my recommendations aren't your cup of tea. It doesn't mean they're not good. Obviously in the end it's mainly subjective and I happen to like all of those albums. Inquisition is band you either like or hate, mainly due to the vocals of course, but musically it's great (although the stuff they do does sounds pretty similar, I'll give you that). That Ulver album is a classic, the Old Man's Child album is easily the best by that band and the same goes for Limbonic Art (some might prefer the debut I guess, but I haven't heard anything except for the first two albums). Spiritual Black Dimensions is easily DB's best album for me, so can't really comment on that. Dordeduh is great too, even if Negura Bunget is better (still have to check out Om, to know what all the fuss is about ). You're probably right about Summoning and Caladan Brood, seeing mz's BM taste, but who knows he might enjoy it. Although you don't really need to be a die-hard Summoning fan in order to enjoy CB. About Arcturus, I also think La Masquerade Infernale is (slightly) superior to the debut, but since I felt it has too few BM in it I didn't recommend that one. The Sham Mirrors is my least favourite of the three, believe it or not.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 05.09.2013 at 05:27

yet you are a huge doom metal fan and espcially of My Dying Bride. Then what you say about dsbm is totally baffling. The biggest cryer in metal ever and especially during the last eight years and live is Aaron of My Dying Bride

Last DBM is listened to is Pensées Nocturnes and those kind of crying vocals are TOTALLY different from the whiny vocals that Aaron from MDB does. Watching From a Distance might be a brilliant album (we both agree on that ) but it also has whiny vocals, although a bit different from MDB, but still way more similar to MDB than MDB is similar to DSBM vocals. Also, in doom metal there are, as far as I'm aware, rarely vocalists that do crying vocals such as in Pensées Nocturnes and Gris (listened to this briefly, but the vocals ruined it for me).

Written by mz on 05.09.2013 at 13:14

I admit that my taste in black metal very restricted and narrowed. Obviously I prefer ambient/industrial black metal over the other sub-genres of BM. Also,it might be due to the fact that BM is relatively new genre for me and I had not enough time to check its other sub-genres.
These days, I personally am not generally interested in melodic forms of extreme metal genres like melodic death and melodic death doom and same applies to melodic black. I go to progressive metal when I have craving for melodic music.It's safe to say that melodic/symphonic/epic black metal is not really my cup of tea. I still would check your suggestions like OM'sC, Summoning,Graveworm and DB but they are not my first priority. Moreover, I generally do not like Norwegian BM bands of second wave (Ok, Mayhem,s OaC is an expectation) but if you think that Emperor is good I will give it another chance. In addition, I stated that Wolves in the Throne Room would have an album here, probably their debut . I also checked out Fen's album last year and was not interested in it at all. I recall it as really average =P Should definitely revisit that
The album which every one is praising and does seem compatible with my taste is Progenie Terrestre Pura - U.M.A. Will definitely check this out today, Thanks

Regarding SDBM, I am also not much interested in this genre tbh. Shining is a band in this genre which is really excellent and that's it for me at the moment
Anyway, thank you.Please give new recommendations if you found anything new whcih you think I might like

Well, I only gave you those suggestions because those are my favourites. If I were to make a list similar to this one, those albums would all be in it. A couple of your albums (of course #1, which I recently discovered) from this list would be in it too. And indeed our tastes differ quite a lot, since I enjoy atmospheric/symphonic BM the most. That being said, Industrial/ambient BM like a lot of albums in this list, is pretty new to me as well, so this list is a nice place for me to find out more stuff. Anyway, seeing as I included the genres by my suggestions, it would be easy for you to know which albums you would possibly like. By the way, even Marcel would agree when I say Emperor's first 2 albums are classics, so do check 'em out. Strange you didn't like Fen... for me their debut is excellent in pretty much every way (some of the clean vocals get a bit whiny/poppy sometimes though). And yes, U.M.A. is a great album, easily one of the best albums this year for me. Let me know what you think of it. One last thing, do you have a minimum rating for the albums on this list? Just curious.

Written by psykometal on 05.09.2013 at 21:06

My main point was that I disagree with the both of you entirely that the BM elements in those 2 albums are anywhere near enough to just modify the BM tag. Imo, the albums are Avantgarde Metal, not Avantgarde Black Metal.

Having read this discussion I agree with psykometal about there not being enough BM elements in LMI to call it avantgarde BM and I would also call it simply "avantgarde metal". I feel there's more BM in TSM however so I'm not sure how I'd label that one (of course Radical Cut is definitely BM). The debut of Arcturus has actually way less avantgarde and way more BM than any other Arcturus album, so that one is clearly avantgarde (symphonic?) BM. Oh, and I agree with Joe about labelling music "avantgarde progressive", which indeed does seem a bit... unnecessary. That being said, there are definitely some differences between those genres, but I wouldn't call Arcturus progressive at all, just avantgarde (black) metal.

Written by Auntie Sahar on 05.09.2013 at 20:16

Well I'd say that me, Joe, and Rodrigo (Mr. Doctor) are probably your main guys to go to for all the weird, experimental BM. For this list, might I suggest...
1. Hail Spirit Noir: Pneuma (more prog rock-ish than black metal, but still a really fantastic album)
2. Kvelertak: Meir (punk-ish black metal, gets into that whole "black and roll" sound)
3. Klabautamann: Merkur (good German atmospheric BM)
4. Any Meads Of Asphodel album... The Murder Of Jesus The Jew is usually hailed as the best, but I prefer Sonderkommando personally

These are all on my Unorthodox Black Metal list by the way, which I see you've checked out already
As for Oranssi Pazuzu, Kosmonument is much crazier and darkly psychedelic than Muukalainen Puhuu. And with The Ruins Of Beverast, it really just depends on what you're looking for... no album is bad, pre-Foulest is just more blackened, and post-Foulest is more doom-y.

I actually had you three in my mind for getting some suggestions when I made this list
I have Hail Spirit Noir but never gave it a proper listen. Their formula is interesting for me since I like prog/psychedelic rock. For this reason, I should also go for Oranssi Pazuzu.
Checking your list is "in progress" for me now as I downloaded a few albums from it, including Kvelertak and Meads Of Asphodel (both of them, two albums). In few days I will be done with them
In addition, I re-listened to Foulest by TRoB yesterday and liked it a lot more than before but it is not still going to be included here. Moreover, I listened to most of unlock the shrine and those were 7.8/10 for me. that album was a very but again, I do not think it would be included here(despite the fact that I should check it more properly)
Thank you and keep giving suggestions if you found anything interesting within the genre

Written by Erik M. on 06.09.2013 at 00:10

Well, I only gave you those suggestions because those are my favourites. If I were to make a list similar to this one, those albums would all be in it. A couple of your albums (of course #1, which I recently discovered) from this list would be in it too. And indeed our tastes differ quite a lot, since I enjoy atmospheric/symphonic BM the most. That being said, Industrial/ambient BM like a lot of albums in this list, is pretty new to me as well, so this list is a nice place for me to find out more stuff. Anyway, seeing as I included the genres by my suggestions, it would be easy for you to know which albums you would possibly like. By the way, even Marcel would agree when I say Emperor's first 2 albums are classics, so do check 'em out. Strange you didn't like Fen... for me their debut is excellent in pretty much every way (some of the clean vocals get a bit whiny/poppy sometimes though). And yes, U.M.A. is a great album, easily one of the best albums this year for me. Let me know what you think of it. One last thing, do you have a minimum rating for the albums on this list? Just curious.

As I stated before, I am really thankful that you gave me those recommendations. In fact, all type of recommendations are welcomed as long as they are not misleading and yours do not fall into this category. This situation is exactly like when I gave you death metal recommendations for your list: although I knew that DM is not your favorite type of extreme metal, I recommended you to check them and you gave me suggestions on melodic/epic/symphonic BM despite the fact that you knew I am not generally an avid fan of these types of BM. No harm done and I will actually check your recommendations
Regarding fen's album, I was not much into BM when I checked it and my taste in the genre has evolved a lot. In the other words, I might actually like it these days
To answer your question on my minimum rating of albums included here, I must say that the lowest ratings are 8.4-8.5 alkerdeel, lord mantis and the axis of perdition.These albums have actually grown a lot on me,especially "the axis of perdition"s album since I did not like this band initially at all. These rating probably would go higher as they grow on me even more.

Written by nille on 13.09.2013 at 18:14

Written by mz on 13.09.2013 at 18:53

Written by nille on 13.09.2013 at 18:14

Yet the thumbs up is only imaginary seeing as he hasn't really given a +1 to this list, which also seems to be the case in quite a few other lists he commented on.

Written by Erik M. on 15.09.2013 at 02:22

Yet the thumbs up is only imaginary seeing as he hasn't really given a +1 to this list, which also seems to be the case in quite a few other lists he commented on.

Maybe he just doesn't give a crap about an affectation that is an official "thumbs up"

Thumbs up in any form is appreciated
Updates to the list: I checked some of the suggestions in past few days and added "The Meads of Asphodel - The Murder Of Jesus The Jew" 2 days ago. I also went through Wolves in The Throne Room's discography and am now torn between their four albums :\ They are all great but I would probably add their "black cascade" or "celestial lineage". Moreover, I am considering adding "aderlating-spear gold seraphim bone" but I skeptical that it could be qualified as black metal. If anyone has opinion on this subject, please share here.

Have you heard Verdunkeln's debut? Would seem to be your cup of tea.

Written by Erik M. on 17.09.2013 at 15:42

Have you heard Verdunkeln's debut? Would seem to be your cup of tea.

I heard it once, maybe 6 months ago and do not remember being that impressed but I'm trying to re-check it.

Verdunkeln's debut album is nothing short of a masterpiece.

Written by Guest on 17.09.2013 at 15:56

Verdunkeln's debut album is nothing short of a masterpiece.

Do not get me wrong. It was a 7.5-7.8 from me which means I consider it a very good album. Also, it might be a grower, so who knows? I might actually end up giving it 9

Written by Guest on 17.09.2013 at 15:56

Verdunkeln's debut album is nothing short of a masterpiece.

Ok, who the fuck told it is not a masterpiece? . Seriously, I do not know why it did not catch my attention the first time I heard it. Added to the list

Glad you discovered its awesomeness

Is Agalloch- Ashes Against The Grains BM

Written by angel. on 16.10.2013 at 14:12

Is Agalloch- Ashes Against The Grains BM

Black metal vocals. That's it pretty much. Raises the question of what constitutes black metal.

Written by Guest on 16.10.2013 at 15:08

Written by angel. on 16.10.2013 at 14:12

Is Agalloch- Ashes Against The Grains BM

Black metal vocals. That's it pretty much. Raises the question of what constitutes black metal.

yeah true, the vocals are in BM style, musically it's dark, melodic ,it has melancholic vibes , and in some moments it's slow with folky tunes, hmm it mostly pushes me to think of doom as the genre( which I had it on my mind till I dropped by this list again ), anyhow it's not that important for me on the whole, this album by Agalloch is one of the bests, however, into whatever genre it would be classified.

Written by angel. on 16.10.2013 at 14:12

Is Agalloch- Ashes Against The Grains BM

honestly not. I placed this album on list because it was the first metal album with black metal elements that I heard.It is probably the least BMish album on this list. I was thinking about eliminating it from the list a few days ago.
Their last album is more influenced by BM but it is not as good as AATG.

Written by mz on 16.10.2013 at 17:05

I was thinking about eliminating it from the list a few days ago.

don't remove it

Written by Guest on 16.10.2013 at 19:18


Aderlating - Spear Of Gold and Seraphim Bone Pt.1.. also what is this?

It is mostly an ambient/noise album, but IMO black metal could be easily heard on this album