Written by [user id=130727] on 23.05.2012 at 19:44

ok but this genre is on my nerve, but ok ok I know it's the matter of different tastes and opinions

True. It is your opinion, however wrong it may be.

I've never even looked into this genre apart from therion, so I can really comment. I can say that it is a legitiment metal sub-genre, though.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 23.05.2012 at 17:20

Written by [user id=130727] on 23.05.2012 at 12:09
Yeah let's go back to the cliche they are and they were.

I'd say you're making yourself look pretty bad and closed-minded in this thread by assuming only "real" metal bands don't use symphonic elements - or in this case, failing to understand that symphonic metal (however cheesy and sugary) is in fact a sub-genre of metal.

At least she didn't use say true/tr00.

If you want a symphonic metal band than try Haggard, you want find a similar band, they have true symphonic elements, orchestration, soprano,tenor,violin,piano,harp,oboe,flute, combined with metal in every song. Try "Eppur si Muove" album. Similar to them maybe but maybe Therion, Nightwish and light years way all the others so called symphonic bands like Epica,Xandria, WT etc. who are called symphonic metal bands because they have a mezzo-soprano singing, a piano or a violin playing in some songs. I dont think symphonic metal is really a genre of metal.

Requiem for the indifferent was a very decent album. The Phantom Agony was perfect for what it was, but the band has tried to evolve from its more simplistic nature. TPA is still my favorite epica album, but I am happy with their evolution into heavier, more intense music.

Yes, symphonic metal has been kind of stale. But it's also a matter of opinion. I really enjoyed the last albums of Epica, Xandria and Nightwish, even though the music isn't original at all. More important for me is that the music sounds good to me and that it encourages me to listen to it again. As long as I can bring up that mindset, symphonic metal doesn't have to reinvent itself for me.
The only thing is that the symphonic element need to have a purpose in the music, and not just pasted there in an attempt to stand out. I think the last Fleshgod Apocalypse suffers from that a bit.

I like symohonic metal, but (!!!) symphonic metal as a label per se doesn't mean anything to me, because ''symphonic'' can be added to a variety of other metal genres and how they can represent that mixture, that's what I'm intrigued about. Septicflesh, Hollenthon, Fleshgod Apocalpyse and of course, Therion, all had great latest releases and they're far from Epica & Xandira for example, but they do prove smyphonic metal hasn't become a cliche. When thinking of sympho, you can't just think about women shouting in dresses and some violin in the background.

Written by AnGina-- on 26.05.2012 at 12:35
When thinking of sympho, you can't just think about women shouting in dresses and some violin in the background.

That's what the thread is targeting - symphonic metal. Not metal with symphonic elements.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 26.05.2012 at 13:26

That's what the thread is targeting - symphonic metal. Not metal with symphonic elements.

This was not a comment about the thread (which I think is very interesting and I hope the debate will continue), but I was reffering as (many? some?) metallers (especially those who don't know the genre well/dislike it) will think for example only of Nightwish. Or Epica. Think of fromwomen in beautiful dresses. And some classical instrument added.

And I'm saying this because I believe that in the past 10 years those exact elements were used to gain popularity (not only in sympho, but especially in gothic) with the wider audience; put a beautiful woman in front of the band, let her sing wonderful clean vocals, if they'd be operatic it would be sweet, have a piano tune added/violin solo and that is it. And then well people think of the genre, they get that picture in their head and henceforth the bashing begins.

Susan already made good point of it, I so much agree with her.

But then again, I like Myles Kennedy, so dafuq do I know about music, right

AnGina you're so right about the cliches IN symphonic metal. Yeah, not every band is doing that, but so many are and it's giving the rest of them a bad name!

And yes, there are bands that play symphonic ____ metal vs. just "symphonic metal" as a genre. I wish there was another name for this genre but I can't think of one (and it wouldn't matter anyway since genre names only seem to happen organically, without planning). If there was a word, a genre name to capture bands like this, that'd be great. A word that wasn't also stuck arbitrarily in front of EVERY other genre name as a descriptor. Alas.

I think Mr. Wolvington could be on to something. This is a subjective matter though and I kinda feel the same he does. A lot of symphonic metal isn't what it used to be. Maybe because so much of it has already been done, or maybe I'm just a little bit tired of it? All I know is that symphonic doesn't ring the same bell in me, as it used to do. Not saying I don't like it anymore, just that it was a while since I heard something which made me think "this is some great symphonic...".

Judging by the band Pathfinder and Fairyland's latest album, there's definitely still some good symphonic metal coming out. Perhaps the mighty have fallen and we just need to look to some newer groups.

Symphonic + Metal = I'm bored to fucking death

so please let this subgenre die in peace...

Written by NyarlathoTim on 31.05.2012 at 16:50

Perhaps the mighty have fallen and we just need to look to some newer groups.

You hit the nail on the head. There is so much good stuff out there that people just aren't looking for.

Written by Guib on 31.05.2012 at 21:24
so please let this subgenre die in peace...

Let a genre die because you don't like it.

Seems legit.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 31.05.2012 at 21:44

Written by Guib on 31.05.2012 at 21:24
so please let this subgenre die in peace...

Let a genre die because you don't like it.

Seems legit.

It is totally legit, If I would like Symphonic Metal... I would give a fuck about it dying
but really I don't lol

I agree, it has become rather stale. However, I don't believe the genre has died - yet.
While nothing recent has really interested me, I remain optimistic.

I do think one major flaw that exists in the genre today, or some Metal groups with added symphonic elements is that it all sounds to crammed and forced - there seems to be a great desire to make the music sound as 'epic' or 'glorious' as possible, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, there is just a large distinction with those groups who do it well and those who fall short.

Simplicity and subtlety is what is needed (imo), for some sort of revival - together with a mature sound and a sense of ones own identity within the genre.

Most people don't get us metalheads are hard to please putting some chick as the vocalist and a guy living out his eddie van halen fantasy ain't gonna cut it.

VERY few interesting symphonic metal bands out there. I enjoy symphonic black metal/death metal or even some symphonic progressive metal if it's interesting, but the majority of it all sounds the same, particularly the ones fronted by female vocalists. Nothing against them or anything, they just tend to all sound the same. Metal (or music in general) for me pretty much boils down to how memorable it is. If it's music that gets stuck in my head, then chances are I will like it. If it's generic and boring with nothing memorable about it whatsoever, it probably wont get much of my attention. Unfortunately, most symphonic bands suffer from the "two note riff" syndrome while there are some violins playing in the background. The great thing about bands like Bal-Sagoth is that they had many symphonic elements but they were never the only selling point of the band. They always had extremely diverse, epic, sweeping riffs as well as strong vocals with interesting effects and lyrics. But keep faith, they might release a new album...maybe!

I know what are happening, it calls trying to be perfect, let me explain:
nowadays the bands are trying to be very good with technical aspects and they are forgetting the "feeling thing", an example are epica, till the album the phantom agony it was just amazing, but, after 2009 it started to "decrease", using too much technique and less feeling.

But it has one cause for this "too much tecnique" it calls labels, such as nuclear blast and others, to sell more they exiges it.

But it has underground bands, or even, some traditional power metal bands, blind guardian, whom doesn't loss their feeling who is there to save or power metal.

To be fair, a lot of the big names in many sub-genres kind of suck anyway (to me personally, and I'm talking about their latest releases).

Doom: Candlemass
Death: Deicide, Nile
Heavy: Iron Maiden
Black: Burzum, Drudkh
Metalgaze: Alcest
Power: Freedom Call, Edguy
Prog: Dream Theatre

just naming a few on top of my head. The thing is...
1) it's hard to find a band that can release great album after great album. you know... chemistry, musical inspiration and what not.
2) other bands push the envelop further. The thing that made a band special can be copied right away, and it's only a matter of time someone else copied it and done it better while the original "pioneer" continues with something more or less the same, but the wow-factor is gone already. Besides, music is spread by the means of internet streaming these days. A lot more easy to access than the days of tapes and such, so aping a style (and thus making the genre saturated) is much easier than before.

So I don't see why Symphonic metal is left out. Musicians can write whatever they want and we don't control them. We listen, and if we like them, we praise them and continue listening to their music, go to their shows and buy their merchandise. If you think they're past their glory days, listen to something else.

I personally have never been a fan of Therion, nor have I been too big on Epica. Recent Within Temptation has been great for me. After Forever is indeed no more, but there's ReVamp (even though I didn't like their debut, but we can always wait for the second one and hope Floor strikes gold, right?). Nightwish seems trying to do something different, but haven't found the right sound yet, but at least they are trying to be different which is good and I'm sure a lot of people dig it.

Anyway, there's still good Symphonic metal albums to be found beyond the heavy weights of the genre. The latest Edenbridge, Septic Flesh, Crysalys,
The Rain I Bleed were all captivating listens in their own right. And if one is willing to delve a bit more extreme, as above posts have mentioned already, the latest Fleshgod Apocalypse, or Hollenthon.

Some less popular releases that could be of interest:
Inner Fear - First Born Fear
Damnation Angels - Bringer Of Light
Diabulus In Musica - The Wanderer

Written by winds of mayhem on 18.06.2012 at 06:08

Most people don't get us metalheads are hard to please putting some chick as the vocalist and a guy living out his eddie van halen fantasy ain't gonna cut it.

On the contrary, that sounds like every metalhead's erotic dream.

Man I agree with you about Symphonic metal is not great as it was in 2005 or 2000 as you can see the best symphonic metal bands now are singing FASTER AND FASTER and The Crow The Owl And The Dove Where the hell Sleeping sun and stand my ground has gone but I dont agree on the xandria album is boring because it a lot better then the last album of epica for sure I know the album needs some stuff like real choirs and a keyboard player but fuck money its why some bands get in that path but I hope some bands get real and now what is right and get back into the roots Like WITHIN TEMPTATION and let hope Revamp new album is symphonic a lot more hen the first one we heard so fare . but if you longing for real symphonic like days of tristania glory hear this one its called The Last Bewitchment By Penumbra few of people heard it I think so maybe you still did not catch it yet

One of my favorites symphonic (death) metal albums were the first two albums of Dark Lunacy, and they actually are promoting another italian symphonic metal band "Pursuing the end", they look promising and use real choirs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWNxHQ7awfY

I don't know if they are cliche because I never tried to listen to Epica or Nightwish

Symphonic Metal as a genre doesn't exist.

Any kind of band using symphonic elements is basically Powermetal, Black Metal, Death Metal, etc etc with other elements put into the mix.

Written by RavenKing on 06.07.2012 at 01:28

Symphonic Metal as a genre doesn't exist.

Any kind of band using symphonic elements is basically Powermetal, Black Metal, Death Metal, etc etc with other elements put into the mix.

But when those elements are the main feature of the band, it is completely valid to consider that symphonic metal. And there are shitloads of bands that rely on that, so it's also valid to consider it a genre.

I think if you look past all of the tight and shiny leather-clad bands doing pretty generic symphonic metal there are some decent bands to uncover, but the genre does lend itself to some stereotyping. However, I think if you look at every metal genre there are some cliches. When I went to see Alcest and Deafheaven, which some may consider slighly hipster bands, guess what? Everyone in the venue, I kid you not, had a PBR tall boy in hand. So are cliches and stereotypes out there? Yeah, just dig past it and find pay dirt.

Written by Unhealer on 06.07.2012 at 02:05
But when those elements are the main feature of the band, it is completely valid to consider that symphonic metal. And there are shitloads of bands that rely on that, so it's also valid to consider it a genre.

Agreed. Refusing to accept that symphonic metal is a genre is pointless, there are obvious examples of symphonic metal bands that legitimize the sound.

Therion, Epica, and Haggard come to mind. Not that I'm a fan of the sound by any means. I just think it's weird for someone to call out symphonic metal as a falsely established style.

Written by [user id=20536] on 06.07.2012 at 03:16

I think if you look past all of the tight and shiny leather-clad bands doing pretty generic symphonic metal there are some decent bands to uncover, but the genre does lend itself to some stereotyping. However, I think if you look at every metal genre there are some cliches.

Yep, that's completely correct. I think every single metal genre has it's cliche's, and stereotypes. The whole deal with different genres in the first place, is because of stereotypes. The amount of bands in any metal sub-genre which actually deviate from the stereotypes of their respective genres are actually miniscule compared to the tons of bands who neatly fit into the stereotype of the sub-genre of which they belong. This is true of all sub-genres, not just one or two.

The thread wasn't set up to debate whether or not other genres have cliches - it was to specify whether or not symphonic metal had joined the likes of other established genres in terms of becoming a "tired out" sound. Cal (account deleted) is a big fan of symphonic metal and wanted to see what others thought of his opinion, it's not like he was trying to separate this problem from other genres.