Another thread in which I am curious to see what people have to say. For more that 1000 years the chatholic church crushed science and knowledge becuase they believe "The universe is the work and knowledge of god, mankind has no place there." a quote from a book I was read writen by some guy trying to justify the paple inquisitions.

I think that that "conception" of scientific knowledge being an enemy (I'd prefer saying threat) for them is something they created themselves. Science didn't start out saying, "ok, let's bring down religion". Both of them were created to find reasons for the stuff that happened in the world (read nature), and for the world itself. The thing is that science has been able to prove stuff with actual demonstrable facts, while religion hasn't. So that's why I think it's more a threat than an enemy.

Written by tulkas on 01.10.2009 at 07:35

I think that that "conception" of scientific knowledge being an enemy (I'd prefer saying threat) for them is something they created themselves. Science didn't start out saying, "ok, let's bring down religion". Both of them were created to find reasons for the stuff that happened in the world (read nature), and for the world itself. The thing is that science has been able to prove stuff with actual demonstrable facts, while religion hasn't. So that's why I think it's more a threat than an enemy.

Yes that would probably be a better word "Threat", but I would have to agree. In fact many scientests have in the past set out to "Prove" the existance of god rather that as the church seems to preceive destroying their faith, or weakening it somehow.

To answer title question - yes, it is...i accept there are some "wise educated people" who still find their catholic belief, but in general education produces questions and questions are "threat" (good word for that)

What we shood discuss here
Well maye ancient knowlages n cities are unferfround anyway, its hard to tell besided when barbaric nations get islam they did same, but in darkages people get stupid anyway, pre crsitain ways wa sromans greeks and other germans, celts , they lost many ancient traditions anyway and besides people in darkages belived in witch house on chicken leg, trolls, fltying witches whatever, so they was stuoid generaly to

The shortest answer I can give is that skepticism and inquiry are the enemies of all dogmatic institutions. One of the reasons why the Library of Alexandria was destroyed was because the Christian church realized that the knowledge held within was harmful to their cause. The most extreme forms of knowledge suppression were quite prevalent during the Dark Ages, when the clergy would silence all voices that would speak out against what the church deemed as law. Even now, the most extreme sects of certain religions seek to find ways to silence all who oppose them, whether it be through law or through force. The best way to counter their ignorant tactics is to speak louder.

Written by Guest on 01.10.2009 at 14:10

The shortest answer I can give is that skepticism and inquiry are the enemies of all dogmatic institutions.

Very, very true. Dogmatic institutions rely of illusions and mysticism to spread a belief (As much as many would try to deny this), Education and Knowledge allows people to understand the world around them not as "majic" but as an explainable but still amazing place. In most religions there is too much emphasis on the "Mystical powers" of a god or shaman or diety whatever they want to call it.

There is no such thing as "chatholic" church, just catholic. Damn, and I thought my English sucks...

Ummm...I don't want to be a jerk or anything, but it is really obvious that you guys are just ranting and raving about a topic you don't seem to have much background on. Not once in this thread have I seen any citations, quotations or source material for any of the claims. Now I am by no means saying that the Roman Catholic Church has fully embraced science, but as an institution they have not shunned it either.

Which brings me to my next point: It is the Roman Catholic Church not the Catholic Church. They are two very, very different terms and need to be separated.

But before I get into a huge discussions of this topic, I just wanted to see if any of you even know who Georges Lemaître was? If not, research him, then get back to me.

You all should watch a movie called Inherit The Wind (1999) starring Jack Lemmon and George C Scott

Movie about true story , a famous Monkey Trial (The State of Tennessee vs John Thomas Scopes 1925)

Story about Creation vs Evolution controversy

Written by Dane Train on 05.10.2009 at 03:23


Which brings me to my next point: It is the Roman Catholic Church not the Catholic Church. They are two very, very different terms and need to be separated.

We can quite comfortably expand the topic to include all dagmatic religions if you wish. They all rely on similar mysticism and illusion to spread a belief as I have already said. So in that respect I don't believe they necessarily need to be seperated, although I will say that the "Roman Catholic Church" has been against knowledge since the Dark Ages, what do you think the inquisitions were over. It wasn't Judaism I can tell you that much because how many people burnt for be "Witches" because they knew more about something than the collective knowledge of the church.
No I am not going to look up specific citations, as I have a life outside of metalstorm and neither the time or patience.
One thing to bear in mind is that this is a discussion about the practice of dogmatic faith rather than what is actually writen in the bible/koran/tori or whatever faith you may follow. This discussion as stated is about the practice rather than the idea. The idea is a good thing, the practice is very different though.

Written by ToMegaTherion on 07.10.2009 at 01:21

No I am not going to look up specific citations...

So why should I even discuss the issue with someone not willing to present verifiable facts to me. Right now all it seems is that you are stating your opinion.

Written by Dane Train on 15.10.2009 at 23:09

Written by ToMegaTherion on 07.10.2009 at 01:21

No I am not going to look up specific citations...

So why should I even discuss the issue with someone not willing to present verifiable facts to me. Right now all it seems is that you are stating your opinion.

Isn't that pretty much the point of most of the topics here on ms it is an opinion. I don't claim to be the word of god therefore i'm not about to claim I am universally correct or incorrect, it's open for discussion to anyone...
So yes it is an opinion, if you think im wrong than say so that would be fine, we can discuss it, you welcome to prove me wrong if you wish. But if you just want to sit there and insult me than piss off, im not interested.

If you're going to claim that the education and science is the enemy of the catholic church then you should at least back up that statement with examples and ideally recent ones (Not Darwin, Galileo etc). Even then you can't tar all catholics with the same brush based on a few idiots.

Science doesn't oppose the philosophy of any religion as far as I know. It opposes the idea of taking the bible at face value. These were stories of what people believed thousands of years ago. Do many religious people take the bible as the actual gospel or treat it as a book of stories with morals? I can think of examples but generally speaking...

Here's a thought I've had: Is western society inherently christian? This society has been built over centuries of christian rule and the values and norms of society will have been built around that. In that case aren't you christian unless you've seriously questioned everything outside the framework of what's socially acceptable? (which doesn't seem to be the case if you look to politics as an example. Certain views that, when you think about them, aren't really that mad are considered extreme or insane by the majority and dismissed purely because of that but they're only extreme in relation to one accepted norm that varies with time/culture so can't be ultimately right).

Written by -tom- on 19.10.2009 at 01:57

If you're going to claim that the education and science is the enemy of the catholic church then you should at least back up that statement with examples and ideally recent ones (Not Darwin, Galileo etc). Even then you can't tar all catholics with the same brush based on a few idiots.

Science doesn't oppose the philosophy of any religion as far as I know. It opposes the idea of taking the bible at face value. These were stories of what people believed thousands of years ago. Do many religious people take the bible as the actual gospel or treat it as a book of stories with morals? I can think of examples but generally speaking...

Here's a thought I've had: Is western society inherently christian? This society has been built over centuries of christian rule and the values and norms of society will have been built around that. In that case aren't you christian unless you've seriously questioned everything outside the framework of what's socially acceptable? (which doesn't seem to be the case if you look to politics as an example. Certain views that, when you think about them, aren't really that mad are considered extreme or insane by the majority and dismissed purely because of that but they're only extreme in relation to one accepted norm that varies with time/culture so can't be ultimately right).

A good arguement, and a good case. I agree that you shouldn't tar all catholics with the same brush, the arguement I put is specifically the church, and more in a historical context. Though it dose still happen.

Perhaps some the more recent event arn't as well documented as historical accounts such as galleleo and Darwin, or the Crusades and the Inquisitions. Thanks to the enlightenment of the 18th &19th century politics and religion are primarily seperate as they should be. As religion is a personal matter not one for the government to decide.
Here is an example of how much religion dose still disapprove of anything in science that disagrees with their accepted norm, recently a catholic friend of mine was excomunicated for studying and writing an essay in support of evolution in biology, she very pissed off and very hurt because she wasn't trying to go against "god" but against the accepted norms of the human interpreted word.
For me it is not the "word" of god or the bible or even the individual follower of said faith that is the issue. It is the religious fundamentalists that cause most issues, the interesting fact is that 2/3 christians in the USA now consider themselve as Christian Fundamentalist (Fanatics) or modern day crusaders. It is this fanaticism that can be dangerous because it is exactly this kind of attitude that has led to so many issues in the middle east with the islamic faith.

Written by DayFly on 21.10.2009 at 02:12

A quick and superficial look at the history books should close this topic. One could argue (perhaps) about a few examples of modern religious practice, but sensible people would unanimously agree that the Church used to be the one place where you could actually get education and knowledge in the Middle Ages.

This is also quite true, it still does provide education to its followers but but restricting and censoring the discoveries and theories that disagree with the preconceptions of the church itself. It could be argued that the one mistake the church made about the universe is they adopted an absolutist approach to its understanding, and they still do this to this day (I was reading a report on research caried out by the vaticin into the harmful effects of the abortion pill, basically it said the pill was wrong because it released more estrogen into the environment, with no statistics or evidence to support the theory just a universal assumption.)

Science in itself, is not an enemy of the catholic church, (or any other one that subscribe to creationist ideals) but certain scientific discoveries definitely are it's enemy, seeing as certain scientific findings conflict with the views that creationist religions have. Science is all about learning, discovering new things, and if you find something that conflicts with an older view about something, that's all well and good. Unlike science, religious ideals are set in stone, If science provides proof, or a highly likely theory which conflicts with what creationist religion teaches, then science does become an enemy of religion, even if it is indirectly. The fact that catholic schools only allow creationist views to be taught, shows that the evolution evidence presented by science is seen as a threat to those views.

Written by ToMegaTherion on 21.10.2009 at 01:28
Here's a thought I've had: Is western society inherently christian? This society has been built over centuries of christian rule and the values and norms of society will have been built around that. In that case aren't you christian unless you've seriously questioned everything outside the framework of what's socially acceptable? (which doesn't seem to be the case if you look to politics as an example. Certain views that, when you think about them, aren't really that mad are considered extreme or insane by the majority and dismissed purely because of that but they're only extreme in relation to one accepted norm that varies with time/culture so can't be ultimately right).

Yes, western society has been built over centuries of christian rule, but that was all brought about by intimidation, and oppression. There was once a time when speaking out against christianity and the catholic church could have you tortured and killed. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that christianity and catholicism would not be so deeply entrenched in our society had opposing views been allowed to exist in harmony. Much like many parts of the muslim world, where speaking out against the faith could have very dire consequences for the individual, so that was the case in many societies in the western world as regards to christianity. The numbers of people going to church has drastically dropped in recent times, and the numbers of non-believers has risen sharply also. However, if it was still acceptable to force people to be a member of the faith through intimidation and fear, those things would probably be pretty much unchanged from the times when those methods were seen as acceptable in western society.