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pdepmcp

Posts: 94

Age: 38
From: Italy

  25.11.2009 at 12:04
I'm a bit concerned on the term avantgarde.
The meaning, to me, is something that "comes before", a pacer for others to follow.
The main difference between avantgarde and experimental music can only be judged after some years, according to the result obtained, or in some rare cases in the same period if it's part of a small movement experimenting in one given direction.
What avantgarde is to you?

Any experiments, even the most bizarre, always have a starting point and a direction. Any experiment, being a isolated one or a leading one, is related to something. Even when it does more than a few steps in a direction, the starting point is always recognizable.

Why am I pointing out this? The point is that the term avantgarde by itself does not define a music style (and should not). As such it's meaning less as the only description of a band. I know that band profile has Avantgarde metal, which is somehow better than solely avantgarde, but we are on metalstorm, avantgarde hip-hop would be out of place...

What do you think about a band when you only read avantgarde?
Some years ago when I read that tag about Isis. I got disappointed by the real sound of the band, because I was used to see the tag avantgarde for very different styles of music.
Now I love them but I am still concerned on tagging them avantgarde only.
Try to search for 'Avantgarde' style in MS. What is the common point in Isis, Mirrorthrone (who, by the way, sounds ordinary BM to me), Peccatum and Age Of Silence?

I personally think that avantgarde should only be used as an 'adjective' of some other style, or it should be used as one of the styles and never as the only one.
Neurosis has the much more explanatory double tag 'Avantgarde' and 'Alternative' for the same period, that gives a better idea of what it's all about...

Is it only me?
whatsacow

Posts: 1996

Age: 22
From: Australia

  03.12.2009 at 05:48
No, it's confusing as hell. But maybe this will hold some light as to the difference between avant garde and experimental. Avant garde is holding an extreme position, and lying outside the box; whilst experimental music is pushing the boundaries of the box. There is a massive difference between, say kayo dot, who are completely outside the box; and system of a down, which just tinker with an old formula slightly.

But yeah, to see meshuggah classified as avant garde confuses me as well. And the fine line between progressive, avant garde and experimental, is often blurred to the point of non-existance, and it tends to be a bit of trial and error in finding bands you like.
----
When God made up the golden rule, do you think he noticed that it condones rape?
Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  06.12.2009 at 23:23
I think problem is with the very definition of the word "avantgarde" itself...what does it mean exactly? what is enough "new" to be marked avantgarde? what is not...?
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


BreadGod
Captain Virgin

Posts: 4101

Age: 24
From: USA

  07.12.2009 at 06:11
Written by Ellrohir on 06.12.2009 at 23:23

I think problem is with the very definition of the word "avantgarde" itself...what does it mean exactly? what is enough "new" to be marked avantgarde? what is not...?

Avant garde is characterized by the use of innovative, large-scale experimentation, and the use of non-standard sounds, instruments, and song structures. At least, that's the simplest definition I could muster.
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Death Metal Bread
MAH BLAAGH
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Ellrohir
Heaven Knight

Posts: 8145

Age: 26
From: Czech Republic

  07.12.2009 at 09:32
The question remains - what are exact definitions of these terms? when you for instance say music is "large-scale experimentation"?
----
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings
Become dust in the wake of the hymn
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall
No more than a breath on the wind


Bad English
nobody

Posts: 37926

Age: 29
From: Sweden

  07.12.2009 at 22:09
This might help
http://www.metalstorm.ee/pub/article.php?article_id=161
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Warman
Erotic Stains

Posts: 7442

Age: 24
From: Sweden

  07.12.2009 at 22:35
Well I guess I consider it to be a genre for itself, but yes, I also agree that I prefer to have that kind of music labeled with one more style of Metal. So... well, this really meant nothing. The answer is just as hard to explain as the genre.
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"The Bro Code" article 72: A bro never spell-checks.
Vitriolic Hate
Chaos Reaper

Posts: 1834

Age: 25
From: Greece

  07.12.2009 at 23:24
Yeah it can be stand alone as ''Avant-garde Metal'' also some others references ''Extreme Avant-garde Metal'' & ''Avant-garde Black Metal''
jupitreas
Djerk

Posts: 6516
From: Poland

  08.12.2009 at 13:02
Actually, avant garde means belonging to a certain group of bands, or contributing to a certain movement in music... Avant garde means front line, so if a band is amongst a selection of bands that explore a particular style before it becomes popular, they are avant garde.

So, for example, Neurosis and Isis were certainly very avant garde in the past. They are no longer avant garde but arguably, they are still experimental. Mayhem used to be avant garde in the late 80s/early 90s and now they are also just experimental.

Avant garde is kinda like a vector value in a way.

Also, dont forget, good people, that the tags used in our database are here to aid the database itself ie. make it easier to search etc. Genres and styles are in actuality not easily attainable categories that music can be divided into, they are merely an imperfect way of describing music.
whatsacow

Posts: 1996

Age: 22
From: Australia

  09.12.2009 at 00:04
The annoying thing is that bands like kayo dot, isis, unexpect, iwrestledabearonce and mr bungle get grouped together when they are nothing alike.
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When God made up the golden rule, do you think he noticed that it condones rape?
MétalNoir
Fils du Lys

Posts: 800

Age: 26
From: Canada

  09.12.2009 at 22:02
Avantgarde is simply a label you put on bands you can't classify. Instead of admitting a band fits in no existing subgenre, you just call it "avantgarde". It's not an adjective, like "Symphonic" or "Folk", IMO.

I also noticed most "avantgarde" bands I know use similar themes, like "cicrcus" and "madness"... Put that way, Unexpect, Le Grand Guignol and Diablo Swing Orchestra could be in the same category, but Unexpect and Le Grand Guignol would be Extreme kinds of Avantgarde.
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Notre destinée n'est pas encore tracée....
+{Jonas}+
I R Serious Cat

Posts: 4955

Age: 28
From: Colombia

  09.12.2009 at 22:21
Well, I'm no expert, but as far as I've listened, the weirder it is, the more Avantgarde, like Fantômas or Ulver.
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"Nobody wants to be the weird kid, you just end up being the weird kid. You don't know how you ended up getting there" - Rob Zombie

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pdepmcp

Posts: 94

Age: 38
From: Italy

  10.12.2009 at 17:40
Written by Vitriolic Hate on 07.12.2009 at 23:24

Yeah it can be stand alone as ''Avant-garde Metal'' also some others references ''Extreme Avant-garde Metal'' & ''Avant-garde Black Metal''


Well, to me this sounds like ''Avant-garde Metal'' is the "I don't know how to label it better" tag and the others give an overall idea of the sound-scape they are exploring.
The standalone use seems like a defeat for who wants to describe the very sound of the band/record/whatever.
Konrad
Mormon Storm

Posts: 705

Age: 29
From: USA

  10.12.2009 at 19:18
I agree it's kind of abstract but I don't think it's anything to be "concerned" about.
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Brujerizmo!
Vitriolic Hate
Chaos Reaper

Posts: 1834

Age: 25
From: Greece

  11.12.2009 at 00:48
Written by pdepmcp on 10.12.2009 at 17:40

Written by Vitriolic Hate on 07.12.2009 at 23:24

Yeah it can be stand alone as ''Avant-garde Metal'' also some others references ''Extreme Avant-garde Metal'' & ''Avant-garde Black Metal''


Well, to me this sounds like ''Avant-garde Metal'' is the "I don't know how to label it better" tag and the others give an overall idea of the sound-scape they are exploring.
The standalone use seems like a defeat for who wants to describe the very sound of the band/record/whatever.

yeah got it what you mean
bangladesh

Posts: 170
From: Portugal

  21.12.2009 at 18:17
To me, avantgarde is a tag that cannot be used isolated in metal bands, that tag is for bands like secret chiefs 3 and Alamaailman Vasarat for example. For metal bands the tag avantgarde metal ou avantgarde BM, must be used is bands that have a musical base (metal, BM, DM, etc.) but uses strange elements to those styles.

For example Isis is only experimental sludge, or post sludge. These are terms that describe music that pushes the boundaries of that musical style (sludge), but do not uses strange elements or scales, or type of drumming. Call Isis avantgarde is ridiculous.

But in bands like carnival in coal, lux occulta, ephell duath or diablo swing the music is not described as a evolution from one style, but a conjugation of diferent styles, but with a base, metal. They have a metal base but they are influenced for other styles completly stranges to metal like jazz (ephel duath and lux) and trip-hop (in lux), tango (diablo), etc.
YIN

Posts: 18

Age: 25
From: Hong Kong

  03.01.2010 at 14:01
Avantgarde is related with art rock and crossover
but actually with art,meaning factor and elements in the song and composing.
for exsample ISIS is avantgarde metal.
but yup.it is hard to define.and references of sound is not enough.
so this style of music still have no enough prove to come out.
but when it become longer history.everything will be explain .
-DC-002-
Mastercommander

Posts: 1654

Age: 24
From: USA

  12.01.2010 at 10:29
Avantgarde. It has such a broad meaning to it. It is a tag that can go with any music. Experimental to whatever music it is applied to.
----
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Nomcat

Posts: 3814

Age: 26
From: USA

  12.01.2010 at 23:16
When someone describes MUSIC as Avant-garde, it seems it's just a newer way to call it "progressive" or "alternative". Since it's easier to describe music by smacking labels on them, avant-garde seems to be a genre. Like "indie" music... the original style used to be usually produced by an independent label... But now anything with an acoustic guitar that appeals to "hipsters" is labeled as indie. Doesn't make much sense when you think about it, but we just gotta deal with it I guess. :/
----
"Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is THE BEST..." ____Frank Zappa
whatsacow

Posts: 1996

Age: 22
From: Australia

  29.03.2010 at 03:05
Progressive is about acheiving complexity, whereas Avant garde is about creating something new altogether.
----
When God made up the golden rule, do you think he noticed that it condones rape?
Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 36551

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  30.03.2010 at 13:23
Written by whatsacow on 29.03.2010 at 03:05

Progressive is about acheiving complexity...


There are loads of so-called progressive bands that aren't that complex.
I would say the adjective is best used when it comes to bands achieing complexity, such as there are technical thrash metal & technical death metal
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Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
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05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

whatsacow

Posts: 1996

Age: 22
From: Australia

  31.03.2010 at 00:53
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 30.03.2010 at 13:23

Written by whatsacow on 29.03.2010 at 03:05

Progressive is about acheiving complexity...


There are loads of so-called progressive bands that aren't that complex.
I would say the adjective is best used when it comes to bands achieing complexity, such as there are technical thrash metal & technical death metal

Technical death and technical thrash are often branded as prog, and meshuggah is branded as avant garde, which i really don't get. A lot of prog metal ie. dream theater, pain of salvation, pagans mind etc. are extremely complex. Although i agree, bands like porcupine tree aren't really technical, they aren't progressive metal, but progressive rock.
Avant garde seems to be musically less complex, and by that, i mean that the instruments are playing simple stuff, but there many layers. Whereas prog is entirely about pushing boundaries, bands like kayo dot, maudlin of the well, and unexpect completely break those boundaries; and where prog is about mainly experimenting with rythms, avant garde is experimenting with sounds, dissonances, instruments, structures, etc. Prog follows a rule book. Prog doesn't.
----
When God made up the golden rule, do you think he noticed that it condones rape?
Fat & Sassy!
Nomcat

Posts: 3814

Age: 26
From: USA

  31.03.2010 at 05:28
Written by whatsacow on 31.03.2010 at 00:53

Technical death and technical thrash are often branded as prog, and meshuggah is branded as avant garde, which i really don't get. A lot of prog metal ie. dream theater, pain of salvation, pagans mind etc. are extremely complex. Although i agree, bands like porcupine tree aren't really technical, they aren't progressive metal, but progressive rock.
Avant garde seems to be musically less complex, and by that, i mean that the instruments are playing simple stuff, but there many layers. Whereas prog is entirely about pushing boundaries, bands like kayo dot, maudlin of the well, and unexpect completely break those boundaries; and where prog is about mainly experimenting with rythms, avant garde is experimenting with sounds, dissonances, instruments, structures, etc. Prog follows a rule book. Prog doesn't.


I put prog (or progressive or what-ever-the-fuck) and avant-garde in the same boat. Based off your description, bands like Pain of Salvation would be avant-garde also. Their music isn't too complex and is heavily layered for atmospheric and other effects (Perfect Element, Remedy Lane-era). Arcturus does the same thing... But they are avant-garde. Early Genesis and artists like Frank Zappa experimented with different sounds and whatnot too, but they are widely considered progressive. To me progressive is any band that (even in the slightest) pushes some sort of musical boundaries, while doing what they wanna do and running with it. Pain of Salvation, Zappa, Arcturus, Primus, Mr. Bungle, Sigh, Pelican, Solefald, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Rush, Diablo Swing Orchestra... They are all in the progressive rock/metal boat to me.
----
"Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is THE BEST..." ____Frank Zappa
Valaskjalf
TheImperturbable

Posts: 1442
From: South Africa

  01.04.2010 at 01:19
I rarely give a crap to understand what Avantgarde metal means...in my head it is something somewhat progressive that sounds obscure. Not necessarily musically very technical ala Dream Theater, but something which combines different styles of metal in an obscure way, ie Arcturus.
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IF THE MILK IS SOUR...I AINT THE KINDA PUSSY TO DRINK IT
Aeox

Posts: 94


  02.04.2010 at 19:52
Avantgarde music, is usually (or supposed to be) innovative and orginal and the artists apply new techniques or concepts to their music - progressive would just refer to existing music branching into different sections - or advancing. Not all progression can be considered a positive development and in fact music can actually progress in one aspect and digress in another.

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