Yes i know there is a topic dedicated to Judaism, however, this topic is specific to a question, or more of a general wondering of a though that has been recurring to me and i never really found an answer to it, and since these metal forums are full of open-minded, logic-oriented people, i thought it would be the perfect place to place my question, and hope nobody is offended as maybe i got it all wrong and i just need to know the right idea, so please share your opinions.

the question is of course : "Is Judaism a religion or an ethnicity/race?" and to answer that, some sub-questions have to be answered first, as they are the ones that lead alot of people to believe that way, and they are the ones that raised this question;

* Is Judaism for everyone ? can anyone convert to Judaism? why do some orthodox Jewish groups refuse "Jew converts" and only accept "true Jews" who were born of a Jewish mother?

* If Judaism is meant for a certain group of people and no "outsiders" are allowed, how can others achieve "salvation" or "go to heaven" if they're not allowed to be Jewish? and does this mean that the Jewish god is unfair as this way MOST people are certainly doomed to hell except a "chosen few" ?

* If Judaism is all about "a chosen few" or "gods chosen people", then how do we KNOW who those "few people" are ? coz when Judaism came to existence it was in Egypt, and "some" Egyptians believed in Moses while most didn't... so, does this mean that the "Egyptian race" is the chosen one ? what about the non-believers? coz those "chosen Egyptians" are certainly no different than the "unchosen" Egyptians in any racial way !

and note that MOST of today's Jews are descendants from Armenian roots and they original "Egyptian Jews" are merely a minority today.. which means that MOST Jews aren't really "true Jews" (if it is a race-specific thing)

* if Judaism is NOT an ethnicity, then why is it considered anti-Semite to bash any Jew and not considered anti-Semite when we make fun or bash Jesus (even though he was a Hebrew), and why is isn't it anti-Arab when we bash Muhammad, ..etc ?

Alot of incoherency is associated with Judaism (as well as any organized religion basically), which confuses me alot... can any expert on the subject or even a regular Jew tell me what do they think about that?

apologies for any "offended" people, I'm REALLY after some answers, and not just being a dick !

Religion...because for instance our current prime minister Jan Fisher is Jew, but you wouldnt say that until he tells you...



"ethnicity" you should be able to recognize by brief looking at the person imo

Judaism cannot be an ethnicity simply because you can't completely lump those two things together. to put it simply, Mosaics aren't all Jews, and not all Jews are Mosaics. as for anti-semitism, it's just a simple question of semantics... semitic = jew in modern acceptance.

You both make sense but the thing is.. SOME Jews actually told me this, that Judaism IS an ethnicity ! and as i mentioned, certain Jewish groups and Jewish schools refuse Jews who converted from other religions, ... so, I'm wondering if they've got it all wrong (which is unlikely) or was it me who wasn't paying attention

Gypsies arent a "race" as well (but "only" an ethnicity), although many of them say so, if you ask them...this is not good criteria...

Written by Ernis on 13.04.2010 at 22:01

Therefore... I personally don't have anything against Jewish people nor their traditions but this religion harbors some of the most violent ideals (which have also been incorporated into Christianity, sadly enough)... Plus it makes me incredibly sad that some people are so evil to use the deaths of innocent people as a pretext to commit more ethnic cleansing... that's diabolic...

i think violence in religions is misinterpreted/mistranslated... or is "added" to the religion by certain "people in power" to control the naive masses.. almost ALL religions are violent nowadays because of that. so, i wouldn't call Judaism more violent than others.. i -however- think it is VERY elitist !!

Written by Zombie on 13.04.2010 at 22:38

i think violence in religions is misinterpreted/mistranslated... or is "added" to the religion by certain "people in power" to control the naive masses.. almost ALL religions are violent nowadays because of that. so, i wouldn't call Judaism more violent than others.. i -however- think it is VERY elitist !!

Well yeh... you know, if you read LaVey's Satanic Bible you can find the same contents there which you can find in teh Hebrew Bible...
And yes, I know... Christian rulers have also lived in perfect accordance to these diabolic things they themselves have called "God's will"...

And yeh, it's for controlling masses... what a perfect tool...

So, still no Jews or ex-Jews participating in the subject?

the question remains unresolved

Talmudic Quotes

R. Johanan said: A heathen who studies the Torah deserves death, for it is written, Moses commanded us a law for an inheritance; it is our inheritance, not theirs. Then why is this not included in the Noachian laws? -- On the reading morasha [an inheritance] he steals it; on the reading me'orasah [betrothed], he is guilty as one who violates a betrothed maiden, who is stoned. An objection is raised: R. Meir used to say. Whence do we know that even a heathen who studies the Torah is as a High Priest? From the verse, [Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments:] which, if man do, he shall live in them. Priests, Levites, and Israelites are not mentioned, but men: hence thou mayest learn that even a heathen who studies the Torah is as a High Priest! -- That refers to their own seven laws.

Sanhedrin 59a

To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.

Libbre David 37

A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them.

Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17

We beg Thee, O Lord, indict Thy wrath on the nations not believing in Thee, and not calling on Thy name. Let down Thy wrath on them and inflict them with Thy wrath. Drive them away in Thy wrath and crush them into pieces. Take away, O Lord, all bone from them. In a moment indict all disbelievers. Destroy in a moment all foes of Thy nation. Draw out with the root, disperse and ruin unworthy nations. Destroy them! Destroy them immediately, in this very moment!

Prayer said on the eve of Passover (Pranajtis: Christianus in Talmudae Judeorum, quotations from: Synagoga Judaica)

The Feast of Tabernacles is the period when Israel triumphs over the other people of the world. That is why during this feast we seize the loulab and carry it as a trophy to show that we have conquered all other peoples, known as "populace"...

Zohar, Toldoth Noah 63b

When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves.

Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D

Resh Lakish said: He who is observant of fringes will be privileged to be served by two thousand eight hundred slaves, for it is said, Thus saith the Lord of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, etc.

Mas. Shabbath 31b

On the house of the Goy [Goy means unclean, and is the disparaging term for a non-Jew] one looks as on the fold of cattle.

Tosefta, Tractate Erubin VIII

When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it.

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156

If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth.

Choschen Hamm 388, 15

Happy will be the lost of Israel, whom the Holy One, blessed be He, has chosen from amongst the Goyim, of whom the Scriptures say: "Their work is but vanity, it is an illusion at which we must laugh; they will all perish when God visits them in His wrath." At the moment when the Holy One, blessed be He, will exterminate all the Goyim of the world, Israel alone will subsist, even as it is written: "The Lord alone will appear great on that day!...

Zohar, Vayshlah 177b

That the Jewish nation is the only nation selected by God, while all the remaining ones are contemptible and hateful.

That all property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which consequently is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples. An orthodox Jew is not bound to observe principles of morality towards people of other tribes. He may act contrary to morality, if profitable to himself or to Jews in general.

A Jew may rob a Goy, he may cheat him over a bill, which should not be perceived by him, otherwise the name of God would become dishonoured.

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat, 348

R. Hanina said: If a heathen smites a Jew, he is worthy of death; for it is written, And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian. [Ex. 2:12] R. Hanina also said: He who smites an Israelite on the jaw, is as though he had thus assaulted the Divine Presence; for it is written, one who smiteth man [i.e. an Israelite] attacketh the Holy One.

Sanhedrin 58b
[In other words, if a non-Jew kills a Jew, the non-Jew can be killed. Punching an Israelite is akin to assaulting God. (But killing a non-Jew is NOT like assaulting God.]

If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible.

Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5

Has it not been taught: "With respect to robbery -- if one stole or robbed or [seized] a beautiful woman, or [committed] similar offences, if [these were perpetrated] by one Cuthean ["Cuthean" or "Samaritan" = goy/gentile/heathen/non-Jew] against another, [the theft, etc.] must not be kept, and likewise [the theft] of an Israelite by a Cuthean, but that of a Cuthean by an Israelite may be retained?" But if robbery is a capital offence, should not the Tanna have taught: He incurs a penalty? -- Because the second clause wishes to state, "but that of a Cuthean by an Israelite may be retained," therefore the former clause reads, "[theft of an Israelite by a Cuthean] must not be kept." But where a penalty is incurred, it is explicitly stated, for the commencing clause teaches: "For murder, whether of a Cuthean by a Cuthean, or of an Israelite by a Cuthean, punishment is incurred; but of a Cuthean by an Israelite, there is no death penalty?"

Sanhedrin 57a
[Translation: A Jew may rob a Goy, but a Goy may not rob a Jew. If a Goy murders another Goy or a Jew, he should be killed, but a Jew will not be incur the death penalty for killing a non-Jew.]

Kill the Goyim by any means possible.

Choshen Ha'mishpat 425:50

Everyone who sheds the blood of the impious [non-Jews] is as acceptable to God as he who offers a sacrifice to God.

Yalkut 245c

Extermination of the Christians is a necessary sacrifice.

Zohar, Shemoth

Tob shebbe goyyim harog - Even the best of the Goyim (Gentiles) should be killed.

Soferim 15, Rule 10
[NB: Hoffman says, "This passage is not from the Soncino edition but is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, 'Gentile,' (p. 617)." Another source says this passage is at Avodah Zara 26b. We have not been able to verify any of these references. It does not seem to be at Avodah Zara 26b of the Soncino edition.]

What is [the meaning of] Mount Sinai? The mountain whereon there descended hostility [sin'ah ] toward idolaters [non-Jews].

Shabbath 89a

The same has been taught as follows: If the ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite [non-Jew] there is no liability, but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite... the payment is to be in full, as it is said: He stood and measured the earth, he beheld and drove asunder the nations [Gentiles], and again, He shined forth from Mount Paran...implying that from Paran he exposed their money to Israel.

Baba Kama 38a
[Trans: The property of the Israelite is more valuable than that of the Gentile. Mount Paran refers to Deut. 33:2, where God offered the law to the nations (Gentiles), who rejected it. The money of the Gentiles is available to the Israelites.]

ONE SHOULD NOT PLACE CATTLE IN HEATHENS' INNS, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUSPECTED OF IMMORAL PRACTICE WITH THEM. A WOMAN SHOULD NOT BE ALONE WITH THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUSPECTED OF LEWDNESS, NOR SHOULD A MAN BE ALONE WITH THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SUSPECTED OF SHEDDING BLOOD. . .

Why then should we not leave female animals alone with female heathens? -- Said Mar 'Ukba b. Hama: Because heathens frequent their neighbours' wives, and should one by chance not find her in, and find the cattle there, he might use it immorally. You may also say that even if he should find her in he might use the animal, as a Master has said: Heathens prefer the cattle of Israelites to their own wives, for R. Johanan said: When the serpent came unto Eve he infused filthy lust into her.

Avodah Zarah 22a-b

He who pours the oil of anointing over cattle or vessels is not guilty; if over heathens or the dead, he is not guilty. The law relating to cattle and vessels is right, for it is written: Upon the flesh of man [adam] shall it not be poured; and cattle and vessels are not man. Also with regard to the dead, [it is plausible] that he is exempt, since after death one is called corpse and not man. But why is one exempt in the case of heathens; are they not in the category of adam?-No, it is written: And ye my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are adam [man]: Ye are called adam but heathens are not called 'adam. But is it not written: And the persons [adam] were sixteen thousand? -- Because it is used in opposition to cattle. But is it not written: And should I not have pity on Nineveh [that great city, wherein are more than six score thousand persons [adam]?--This too is used in opposition to cattle.

Mas. K'rithoth 6b
[This passage refers to anointing with oil. "Heathens," i.e., Gentiles, are not "adam" or man but are equated with cattle]

An objection was raised: And the persons were sixteen thousand!--This is due to [the mention of] cattle. Wherein are more than six-score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right and their left hand!--This is due [to the mention of] cattle.

Mas. Yevamoth 61b
[Again non-Jews are referred to as "cattle."]

All Israelites will have a part in the future world... The Goyim, at the end of the world will be handed over to the angel Duma and sent down to hell.

Zohar, Shemoth, Toldoth Noah, Lekh-Lekha

Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.

Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L

Everything a Jew needs for his church ritual no goy is permitted to manufacture, but only a Jew, because this must be manufactured by human beings and the Jew is not permitted to consider the goyim as human beings.

Schulchan Oruch, Orach Chaim 14, 20, 32, 33, 39

A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat.

Hadarine, 20, B; Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348

A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl.

Gad. Shas. 2:2

A boy-goy after nine years and one day old, and a girl after three years and one day old, are considered filthy.

Pereferkowicz, Talmud t.v., p. 11

Raba stated: With reference to the Rabbinical statement that [legally] an Egyptian [Gentile] has no father, it must not be imagined that this is due to [the Egyptians'] excessive indulgence in carnal gratification, owing to which it is not known [who the father was], but that if this were known it is to be taken into consideration; but [the fact is] that even if this is known it is not taken into consideration.... Thus it may be inferred that the All Merciful declared their children to be legally fatherless, for [so indeed it is also] written, Whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

Yevamoth 98a
[Trans.: A non-Jew is "legally fatherless," regardless of whether or not the father is known. Gentile children are essentially asses and horses, i.e., animals.]

[The daughters of the heathens] should be considered as in the state of <http://jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr4942.htm>niddah [separation?] from their cradle...

Avodah Zarah 36b

They decreed in connection with a heathen child that it should cause defilement by seminal emission so that an Israelite child should not become accustomed to commit pederasty with him.... It is therefore to be concluded that a heathen girl [communicates defilement] from the age of three years and one day, for inasmuch as she is then capable of the sexual act she likewise defiles by a flux. This is obvious!

Avodah Zarah 36b-37a

R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition [intercourse], and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; [if a niddah] she defiles him who has connection with her, so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies, as a garment which has lain upon [a person afflicted with gonorrhoea].

Sanhedrin 55b

Rab said: Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that. Samuel said: Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that.24 (24) I.e., Rab makes nine years the minimum; but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred. Samuel makes three the minimum.

Sanhedrin 54b

Raba said. It means this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this [three years old], it is as if one puts the finger into the eye; but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a piece of wood.'...

Kethuboth 11b
[This debate concerns whether or not someone is a virgin. Virginity is prized above all, such that it is believed that a girl under the age of three will regain her virginity, even if a man has had intercourse with her. (Fn. 7 says, in regard to putting "the finger into the eye": "I.e., tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years.") Since virginity is prized above all, one could assume that this conclusion has allowed grown men to have sex with little girls with immunity. A grown-up woman is not deflowered by having sex with a small boy, however, since he is only like a "piece of wood."]

It was taught: R. Judah used to say, A man is bound to say the following three blessings daily: "[Blessed art thou...] who hast not made me a heathen," ".... who hast not made me a woman"; and "... who hast not made me a brutish man." R. Aha b. Jacob once overhead his son saying "[Blessed art thou...] who hast not made me a brutish man," whereupon he said to him, "And this too!" Said the other, "Then what blessing should I say instead?" [He replied,]...h who hast not made me a slave." And is not that the same as a woman? - a slave is more contemptible.

Menachoth 43b-44a
[A "prayer" or "benediction" to be said by a Jewish man every day: "Thank God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave."]

Do not save Goyim in danger of death.

Show no mercy to the Goyim.

Hilkkoth Akum X1

A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean.

Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122

And he who desires that none of his vows made during the year shall be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null.1 [HIS VOWS ARE THEN INVALID,] PROVIDING THAT HE REMEMBERS THIS AT THE TIME OF THE VOW.

Nedarim 23b
[Essentially the "Kol Nidre" prayer said every year at Yom Kippur. Fn. 1 says: "This may have provided a support for the custom of reciting Kol Nidre (a formula for dispensation of vows) prior to the Evening Service of the Day of Atonement (Ran.). The context makes it perfectly obvious that only vows, where the maker abjures benefit from aught, or imposes an interdict of his own property upon his neighbour, are referred to. Though the beginning of the year (New Year) is mentioned here, the Day of Atonement was probably chosen on account of its great solemnity. But Kol Nidre as part of the ritual is later than the Talmud, and, as seen from the following statement about R. Huna h. Hinena, the law of revocation in advance was not made public."]


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HOLY SHIT !! looool

Lol, even though i get the sarcasm... i can safely say i just quoted stuff as a copy-and-paste without saying my opinion, how can i be an anti-Semite by simply mentioning quotes from the old testament.

and btw, Arabs can't be anti-Semites coz we are more 'Semite' than Jews (look it up from reliable sources if you want proof), so it's like calling a black guy a racist when he tells another black man the n-word.

anyways, to post my opinion about this; I'm amazed, and shocked, and confused too.. is that how all Jews think ? coz if not, then those who don't believe in this must be 'bad' Jews for not following those teachings..

but, if all Jews do believe in this, then -I'm sorry to say that- but isn't Judaism a little bit more racist than national socialism (Nazi) itself ?

oh, and should i -and you- be killed now that read this and know about their 'inheritance' (as in the first quote mentioned)


anyways, so back to the topic, which is the question of weather Judaism is a religion or an ethnicity; from what i just read, this is a strictly ethnic thing .. its like a closed club that no one's welcomed in... and its very different from other religions, i mean, Christians always invite non-believers to believe in Christ and they send preachers to Africa and such.. same with Islam, always trying to convert non-believers into Muslims... but Judaism apparently doesn't want us 'goys' to know about its teachings.. and it defines non-Jews as sub-human beasts, so if i chose to convert to Judaism right here and right now, would i 'transform' into a human ? or I'm still a servant beast who is in the shape of a human so that my Jewish masters would not be bothered looking at the beast that i am...

I'm tired of trying to figure this out and be civilized and accepting about it, this is VERY confusing ... i mean, its crystal clear how racist, elitist this book is ... i WISH i was wrong about it but here it is ... Google it if you think i made this up ... so, again my question is.. how come extremist ideologies such as Nazism, fascism, communism, militant Islam, white supremacy, and other violent ideologies be considered bad while extreme Judaism (or if you allow me to call it Zionism coz that's what it basically is) is allowed and praised openly in media and in today's world.

Written by Zombie on 23.10.2010 at 09:05

so, again my question is.. how come extremist ideologies such as nazism, fascism, communism, militant islam, white supremacy, and other violent ideologies be considererd bad while extreme judiasm (or if you allow me to call it zionsism coz that's what it basically is) is allowed and praised openly in media and in todays world.

Just because... it's like asking "why do you kill the cow to make a burger?" It's just as natural... for some people...

Well, you posted these things but as written there, you and I should not even be allowed to know bout this. Lord is already really mad and constantly tries to punish you.
In many "democratic" societies nowadays even owning some books is illegal because it makes you a serious racial offender... I believe you know some books. On the other hand, there's plenty of books being published which are heavily anti-Christian or simply anti-religious.
What's better than to tell a goy that "Shut up. You're just evolved from an ape. No God has created you. Just go, have sex, eat, drink and die. You don't have any soul nor will you go to heaven. You're FREE! You can have as many sex partners as you wish, you can be gay. Just be free and enjoy your democracy!"

Written by Ernis on 13.04.2010 at 22:42

Written by Zombie on 13.04.2010 at 22:38

i think violence in religions is misinterpreted/mistranslated... or is "added" to the religion by certain "people in power" to control the naive masses.. almost ALL religions are violent nowadays because of that. so, i wouldn't call Judaism more violent than others.. i -however- think it is VERY elitist !!

Well yeh... you know, if you read LaVey's Satanic Bible you can find the same contents there which you can find in teh Hebrew Bible...

Can I ask what you mean by the same contents? Do you mean that both Satanism and Judaism are elitist? Sorry to ask I'm just curious, that's all.

As for the question, I always kind of saw the word "Judaism" to imply religion, while I asscosiated the ethnic group as "hebrew" or "jewish". But then again, it's nothing I put much thought into it. To be Hebrew or Jewish may very well imply that one follows the religion of Judaism, but I guess, to put it simply, just because you're jewish it doesn't mean you follow Judaism. I suppose the "Mudblood" thing is just a concept that was created by predjiduced fucktards.

Written by Arian Totalis on 24.10.2010 at 03:02

Written by Ernis on 13.04.2010 at 22:42

Written by Zombie on 13.04.2010 at 22:38

i think violence in religions is misinterpreted/mistranslated... or is "added" to the religion by certain "people in power" to control the naive masses.. almost ALL religions are violent nowadays because of that. so, i wouldn't call Judaism more violent than others.. i -however- think it is VERY elitist !!

Well yeh... you know, if you read LaVey's Satanic Bible you can find the same contents there which you can find in teh Hebrew Bible...

Can I ask what you mean by the same contents? Do you mean that both Satanism and Judaism are elitist? Sorry to ask I'm just curious, that's all.

Not quite... 'twas more like a hint that it's the same thing...

What is Judaism anyway? Ordinary family celebrating hanukka? Nothing bad bout it. Now what's zionism?
Anyhow, read Zombie's posts, they're bit more informative...

I mean no offense to the opening poster(he is after all a very open-minded person in an environment where it's dangerous to be like that) but this topic is useless..

not all Jews are Mozaics

not all Mozaics are Jews

therefore Judaism cannot be an ethnicity, since you can't "pinpoint" ALL Mozaics to a certain ethnic group.

I know Judaism started as a religion, but is it still the same now ? or is it more of a closed club that no one's welcomed to?
lets highlight Christianity for example; there are Christians everywhere in the world, The Americas, Europe, Africa, the middle east, Asia, and Australia ... there's not single continent on this planet that doesn't have Christianity as the dominant religion ... there are white Christians, black ones, brown ones, Asian ones, Indian ones, Eskimo ones.. there are Christians of all races. Christianity invites everyone regardless of his/her race, color, or previous belief ... i -think- you just have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and be baptized and you're a saved christian, there's only 'one' all-christian state in the world and that is Vatican city, which is not a real country lol ... now, compare that to Judaism; Judaism believe in geography.. that all the Jews should live in the 'promised land' from the Nile river in Egypt to the Euphrates in Iraq... they have an all-Jewish state; Israel. they don't do much effort in converting people to Judaism or trying to spread their belief or promote it; in fact, many orthodox Jewish groups refuse and denounce Jew-converts and don't consider them real Jews ... and there are Jewish schools in Europe that does not take children except if both their parents are Jews, many self-declared Jews admit that they do not belief in their religions teachings yet they're ethnically Jewish .. Madonna being a case among many others. Even the term anti-semitism which is called upon people who are anti-Jews, is about the Jewish race 'the Semites' .. why not say that denying the holocaust is anti-Jewish? why do we say its anti-Semite ? ... not mentioning the Talmudic (old testament) verses that actually says that Jews are a 'species of humans' while we're a 'species of beasts' lol ... so, the question remains why did Judaism turn from a religion into an ethnicity? coz when Moses preached his religion to the people of Egypt he certainly didn't choose a certain 'race' or Egyptians and made them follow him .. so, Judaism sprouted from ancient-Egyptian roots but eventually turned into a Hebrew tradition that is -s i see it- far from Moses' original religion.

Lol, fix'd

Written by Ernis on 24.10.2010 at 22:34

Madonna... well she practices kabala... as far as I know that's Jewish witchcraft... if not black magic...

Kabballah is a system of Jewish mysticism and has nothing to do with witchcraft or black magic.

The outfit Madonna's involved with teaches a severely watered down version that has little in common with the Jewish tradition apart from what they call it. There is also a westernized version of the Kabballah largely developed through the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and other Victorian magical lodges that has more in common with the genuine thing than the stuff Madonna's is practicing, but it is still a long way from the Jewish system of the same name.

Of course, Michael Ford and other LHP types have developed a system for their own purposes which draws on a lot of the primary symbols of the Kabballah that is used in black magic, but that's a whole other subject.

@Zombie
You confuse a concept and it's symbol or/and it's etymology.
The term "anti-Semite" is a term used for hatred towards Jews specifically.

ethnoreligious group? Like dah...
You can be secular and be a Jew, and you can be religious and be a Jew.
An Atheist Zionist Jew, and a orthodox anti-Zionist Jews.
Did you know there are many Atheist Jewish Rabbis?
(the website I have linked below is written by one).

Black magic? Jesus Christ. Did you freeze during the 9'th century and awaken only now, or is it just very lazy prejudice?
The amount of unwarranted bullshit on this thread is unpleasant to say the least.
From "Zionism is extreme Judaism" to "its religion...since he won't tell since he is asked".
If there is someone to blame for the specific roots of hatred & prejudices towards Jews it is Christianity. Without this hate embedded into Europe, there would be probably no pogroms, no holocaust and no modern Arabs perpetuating old documents like "the Elder's of Zion" living in a general state of Jews as mythological creatures.

To the topic I will quote a part I have liked:

Quote:
Norman Solomon, "A very short introduction to Judaism"
Is the tomato a fruit or a vegetable?
To botanist it is undoubtedly a fruit, to the chef a
vegetable, but what would the tomato itself say ?
if it thought about the matter at all.
it would probably have the same sort
of identity crisis Jews are apt to get when people
try to strait-jacket them
as a race, an ethnic group, or a religion.
Neither tomatoes nor Jews are
particularly complicated or obscure when left to
themselves, but they also don't fit neatly into the handy categories such as fruit or vegetable or nation orreligion which are so useful for pigeonholing other foods and people.

How would you recognize a Jew if you bumped into him or her in the street?
since there are black as well as white Jews,
oriental as well as occidental, converts as well as 'natives', atheist and agnostic as well as many types of religious jews, is there any way to describe them collectively? how many of them are there? where do they live?"

And concerning the misquotes from the Jewish books which base Halcha (similar to Sharia i.e. religious law), you can actually get some real dirt without being turning out partly a forger with dubious motives.
Daat Emet is a secular organization, which I'm proudly apart of, which warns people of the sell's man of religion and what Judaism actually says.
The myth of Judaism, or at least its origins, as humanistic is false by any means.

And if you are too lazy for that, there is page called "Gentiles in the halacha". Second of all, if this is genuine object of inquiry (and not as means to a well known end) I suggest you check more then one source.

Zionism is a overwhelmingly a secular moment and a complex one.
The only thing common to all the movements is support for the self-determination of the Jewish people (this does not even mean settlement in Israel) which is a right of all nations.
Sadly the word has turned into an Orwellian term by propagandists.

Written by Candlemass on 31.10.2010 at 22:46

You can be secular and be a Jew, and you can be religious and be a Jew.

no problem there. but,

Written by Candlemass on 31.10.2010 at 22:46

An Atheist Zionist Jew, and a orthodox anti-Zionist Jews.
Did you know there are many Atheist Jewish Rabbis?

This is the part i dont understand, how can you be an Atheist Jew ? ... and how can there be Atheist Jewish rabbis? .. isn't Judaism a religion? and this religion has a god? then how come you can be Jewish and an atheist at the same time?

Judaism isn't a nationality, or a membership in a club, its a belief..

so, if i am to call atheism a belief to (a belief of not believing in god), how can a person follow two beliefs? especially if they're contradicting ? ...

so, what i understand now is that Judaism is an ethnicity, like black, hispanic, caucasian .. and some of those ethnic Jews choose to follow Judaism, and some chose to be atheists, yet .. both are Jews.. am i correct here ?

and IF i am correct, then the Jewish race is the offspring of what exactly? ancient Egyptian roots? ancient Egyptian roots mixed with Canaanites ? or is it from what is now known as Armenia (as some sources suggest) ?

and, if we're talking here in terms of race or ethnicity, what is the relation between Judaism is a religion and the Jewish race, and what about those "European-looking" Jews, the Jew converts who follow the Jewish religion but are not of Jewish ethnicity?

Judaism isn't about Jews like Islam about Muslims or Christianity about Christians. Judaism the religion is a belief system, but not all Jews are Judaic. The word "Judaism" is used in more then one sense I guess.
Being Jewish has many aspects to it like ethnicity, religion, cultural, national...but not necessarily all or any of those according to some (if your grandmother is Jewish, some would consider you too). According to some definitions you can even only practice some Jewish culture and be considered 'Jewish'.

I don't think there is a thing as a Jewish "race", even tho most Jews have common genes according to studies. They are not a "racial" group. Some are brown, some white, some even Asian and black. Nobody refers to Jews as a"race" expect neo-nazis probably and the minds they have infected.
Probably Jews come out of the near-east in general.

The most common usage of the term atheist today is for a lack of belief in gods or the supernatural, while 'strong' atheism is actively presenting belief against god's possibility to exist. I fail to see any contradiction.
To convert to Judaism isn't easy, it isn't a missionary religion (generally speaking. they preach to other Jews all the time).
They except you to follow basic Jewish laws and study all the basic tenets of Judaism, it could take years. But after that you are 100% kosher and according to Jewish law it is not allowed to bother a convert about his past at all.

Sherwin Wine is probably the best known atheist rabbi, since him there are many other (he also coined the term "ignosticism").
There are also Atheist bishops from Christianity in history I cannot remember there names right now.
Things are much less simple in reality then a general labels make us think.

Islam is also a complicated structure treated in oversimplified manner at times.

I am sorry but i did not quite understand this part; if "atheism is the lack of belief in gods or the supernatural, or god's possibility to exist". Then how come you can be a christian atheist or a jewish atheist? does this mean that this person would follow the whole beliefs of christianity or judaism except the existence of god and angels and all the 'supernatural' ?

so, about the 'jewish race' thing ... i dont really appreciate being referred to as a neo-nazi, as it was clear i was asking if such thing existed and not implying that it does, infact, i was wondering if the jewish people considered themselves a race as i certainly do not see them as such.

Christianity and Islam both indeed have some complicated structures yet most sects of both have a fairly simple method of converting that does not include years of study.

anyways, you mentioned that studies have shown that most jews have common genes ... may i ask if that applies to black, hispanic, asian jews aswell or does it refer to the stereotypical, racist portrayal of jews and associating them with several physical and behavioral features ?

Written by Zombie on 01.11.2010 at 23:43

Then how come you can be a christian atheist or a jewish atheist? does this mean that this person would follow the whole beliefs of christianity or judaism except the existence of god and angels and all the 'supernatural' ?

While I'm not too much into the religious stuff, I could understand this as the practice of a system of values without necessarily involving the belief of such thing as a god, but more like the belief of certain values. Or maybe as a form of philosophy, like for example, Buddhism, which is practiced as a religion or philosophy as far as I know.

@Zombie
Being Jewish isn't exclusively about religion or even essentially about it. Being Jewish isn't about a system of beliefs its more about culture.
So you can easily be an Jewish Atheist, and that is true for nearly
any famous Jews in history of Western civilization (Einstein, Asimov, Albert Ellis, Chomsky, Ayn Rand, Bill Maher, Carl Sagan, Derrida, Joseph Heller, Karl Marx, Oliver Sacks, Paul Kurtz, Peter Singer, Woody Allen, Google & Facebook founders, Steven Weinberg, Steven Pinker, Isaiah Berlin, David D. Friedman, Bernard Davis etc).

No Jews don't consider themselves as a race, but as a people. Orthodox Jews as "chosen people".
I know the genes in common are parts of DNA, if they some global traits? I have little of an idea of this. I know genetic diseases are abundant
because of the small gene pool (Jews marring Jews over history), which makes sense evolution wise. A larger gene pool is better (unlike what white supremacy movements think, I speculate from what I know, that they are wrong to say inter marriage is all good).
Many populations in the world for some reason share genres of Jews probably because of Jews in history being forcefully converted (many of them tried still to be Jewish in secret, hence the Christians in Portugal |& Spain called them "pigs"). 19.8% of the modern Iberian population has Sephardic Jewish ancestry for example.

I guess you should converge on such an inquiry yourself since I don't hold much interest in it.
I should agree with secular Jews, that what is special about being Jewish is cultural (education, "Jewish mother", mentality and tradition) and historical (general history, prosecution) which Einstein points point out:
"As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

This Explains alot, thanks.

Judaism is about ethnicity and culture more than anything else. I know that jews have been all around the world and they comes from wide different countries, hence they didn't all grew up in the same culture. But at the end, all the jews are the same whatever the place they come from. Basically Judaism is more like a culture itself than a religion like christianity, islam and budaism.