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The original post

Posted by moe5512 on 31.07.2011 at 23:15
I have a lot of friends whom listen to progressive music and always say how deep it is. If it is, why so? To me it's just music that doesn't follow the standard scales and in general I don't care about lyrics. What do you think? Is, let's say, Opeth deeper and more sophisticated than Iron Maiden or are they just two different kinds of music?



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Omnicosm

Posts: 25

Age: 26
From: USA

  03.08.2011 at 02:30
Written by Introspekrieg on 03.08.2011 at 02:10

Written by Omnicosm on 03.08.2011 at 01:57

Substantial Post


Wow, very nice post, well thought-out.

I have to say that I agree with you, progressive isn't really a genre, but if you are looking for the type of music you described it is most commonly found in different areas of metal.
Look forward to reading more posts from you in the future.



Hey, thanks a lot, man. I appreciate it. I look forward to being more involved.
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Cheers.
IronAngel

Posts: 4286

Age: 25
From: Finland

  04.08.2011 at 22:14
I disagree that meaning in music is subjective. Subjectivity isn't very meaningful. There must be an objective basis in reality, or else meaning is completely arbitrary and can change on whim. And that is pretty much contrary to the definition of meaning. I think meaning is something that is transmitted from one person to another, reinterpreted in the process.

People seem to confuse the meaning of a piece of art with how it makes them feel. You might say something like "this song means a lot to me" when you're actually trying to say that you've made an emotional connection to the piece and the mental associations it evokes. But strictly speaking, isn't meaning something epistemic or rational, saying or signifying something? The meaning of a word is the thing it refers to and how it's used in language, not how it makes you feel subjectively. Etcetera, etcetera.

Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I've just had enough of people claiming things like meaning and interpretation in is subjective. By all means, it's not definite or quantifiable. There is a strong interpretational element, but it has to be based on something objective and real, if it is to be anything other than imaginary whims. So I maintain meaning can be discussed and analysed, as long as the participants are part of roughly the same cultural context, because meaning is inter-subjective.


I don't think progressive music pushes boundaries, to be honest. At some point, maybe it did. But even then, it was mostly just importing concepts from other genres into rock music. Experimenting with long suites and mimicking classical music can be refreshing and ambitious, but it hardly guarantees real innovation or artistic value. Then again, I disagree with the definition common in metal, that prog is just anything technical and seemingly new. Prog is definetely a stylistic convention which reached its peak in the 70s, and modern music that doesn't somehow trace its past to that genre shouldn't be called progressive.
BloodTears
Stella Artois

Posts: 9041

Age: 27
From: Portugal

  05.08.2011 at 13:45
It can be, but it is also not exclusive of that genre.

Besides, it's always gonna be a personal thing, meaning it will have different meanings for different people.

There is also a lot of prog out there which isn't worth it, so it is always dangerous to generalize.
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Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29

Like you could kiss my ass.
-Mayhem-

Posts: 63
From: Finland
  07.08.2011 at 18:52
There may not be causality between Progressive music and the depth but I would say it definately has correlation.
People who like to do such complex music often like to make it deeper too. Now depth in music has a lot to do with variety of emotions. Extreme metal tends to bring out just the darker feelings and some power metal bands stay only on the good side. Progressive music mixes different styles and emotions a lot (when done right). Such high mucial intelligence may also correlate with deeper and more allegorical lyrics.

Progressive music is the music I definately respect the most and it also needs to be listened not just heard. It is music that you spend time listening doing nothing else but enjoying the music flowing. Yet there are many other styles of music that are very likeable with their own strenghts and weaknessess. There is a musical style for every moment.
Night Sight

Posts: 256

Age: 20
From: Iran

  08.08.2011 at 15:24
Not all the bands that create progressive music are very meaningful
but overall progressive among other genres of metal is somehow more mysterious and meaningful
----
Alone in birth
Alone in the darkness
Alone in death
Alone in the daylight
Mehdi Taba

Posts: 186

Age: 24
From: Iran

  09.08.2011 at 18:46
100% Dream Theater
Doc Godin
Just a guy

Posts: 9402

Age: 24
From: Canada

  10.08.2011 at 00:51
A lot of the times I'd say the exact opposite. Prog can be the worst genre for obscuring emotion/feeling with pointless, shallow, chauvinistic wankery.

All genres have their ups and down sides. This is one that makes it hard for me to listen to prog.
----
"I got a lot of really good ideas, problem is, most of them suck."
- George Carlin
snake? snaaaake!

Posts: 1146
From: UK

  12.08.2011 at 15:29
Written by Doc Godin on 10.08.2011 at 00:51

A lot of the times I'd say the exact opposite. Prog can be the worst genre for obscuring emotion/feeling with pointless, shallow, chauvinistic wankery.

All genres have their ups and down sides. This is one that makes it hard for me to listen to prog.


Being technical doesnt always mean prog.
Doc Godin
Just a guy

Posts: 9402

Age: 24
From: Canada

  12.08.2011 at 23:08
Written by snake? snaaaake! on 12.08.2011 at 15:29

Written by Doc Godin on 10.08.2011 at 00:51

A lot of the times I'd say the exact opposite. Prog can be the worst genre for obscuring emotion/feeling with pointless, shallow, chauvinistic wankery.

All genres have their ups and down sides. This is one that makes it hard for me to listen to prog.


Being technical doesnt always mean prog.

Thank you for the...uh...correction?

Quote:
A lot of the times I'd say the exact opposite. Prog can be the worst...
----
"I got a lot of really good ideas, problem is, most of them suck."
- George Carlin
snake? snaaaake!

Posts: 1146
From: UK

  12.08.2011 at 23:15
Written by Doc Godin on 12.08.2011 at 23:08

Written by snake? snaaaake! on 12.08.2011 at 15:29

Written by Doc Godin on 10.08.2011 at 00:51

A lot of the times I'd say the exact opposite. Prog can be the worst genre for obscuring emotion/feeling with pointless, shallow, chauvinistic wankery.

All genres have their ups and down sides. This is one that makes it hard for me to listen to prog.


Being technical doesnt always mean prog.

Thank you for the...uh...correction?

Quote:
A lot of the times I'd say the exact opposite. Prog can be the worst...


Sorry, I'll explain what I meant. By wankery, im assuming you dont like being overly technical at the expense of song writing. From what you said earlier i thought you meant that you thought that all prog was technical, which is not the case. Having said that, you probably knew that and I probably misinterpreted what you said.... On that note i'll stop typing to stop myself looking like an idiot...
Doc Godin
Just a guy

Posts: 9402

Age: 24
From: Canada

  12.08.2011 at 23:18
Written by snake? snaaaake! on 12.08.2011 at 23:15

Sorry, I'll explain what I meant. By wankery, im assuming you dont like being overly technical at the expense of song writing. From what you said earlier i thought you meant that you thought that all prog was technical, which is not the case. Having said that, you probably knew that and I misinterpreted what you said.... On that note i'll probably stop typing to stop myself looking like an idiot...

No, I know there is technical music out there that isn't prog, and that there's prog out there that isn't technical. However, it seems there's a strong emphasis on technical proficiency in a good majority of prog.
----
"I got a lot of really good ideas, problem is, most of them suck."
- George Carlin
3rdWorldFuckface
Account deleted
  01.09.2011 at 19:08
Is progressive music deeper and more meaningful? = It can be, but need not be always. Being emotionally involved with music depends on the listener alone.:thumbup:
Mohamads7

Posts: 9

Age: 20
From: Iran

  07.09.2011 at 21:00
Prog. music needs some mental abilities to be understood.
So if you don't like it, don't bother yourself.
IronAngel

Posts: 4286

Age: 25
From: Finland

  07.09.2011 at 23:04
Written by Mohamads7 on 07.09.2011 at 21:00

Prog. music needs some mental abilities to be understood.
So if you don't like it, don't bother yourself.


What do you mean by mental abilities, and what do you mean by understanding? And how do you come to this conclusion in the first place? Such bold claims need to be elaborated.

Don't mistake habit for insight. Just because some people are used to songs with a verse-chorus structure and therefore don't appreciate noodling interludes as much as those who're used to the hippie pomp of progressive rock doesn't make them less capable of musical competence. Ironically, that you may feel progressive is more "challenging" suggests you are simply a slave of habit and used to the conventional pop form. Swapping one convention for another (or abandoning convention completely) doesn't really provide any new challenges or rewards inherent to the music, but only in relation to our previous expectations.

I seriously doubt many prog fans "understand" the music in any notable way. Or do you disagree? Your thorough analysis of Aqualung or gtfo, please.
JohnDoe

Posts: 2120
From: Romania

  07.09.2011 at 23:51
Is progressive music deeper and more meaningful? Depends. Progressive music is quite pretentious bordering pompous. To me, when it crosses into "pompous" is worthless. That is why I cannot get into "zeuhl".

I think finding a balance between technique, melody and experimentation is the most difficult thing and very few bands pull it off.

If we're talking meaningfull from the perspective of lyrics, it's all relative again; there are bands (as are in every genre) which have well crafted lyrics (Fish and hogarth of Marillion, Roger Waters of Pink Floyd, Peter Hammill of VDGG and many others). But unfortunately there is the opposite of that - ridiculously themed concept albums or just poor, meaningless lyrics.
----
"what happens in my subconscious is not my business"
SpawnOfObsession

Posts: 20

Age: 21
From: India
  21.09.2011 at 17:15
"progressive" is another way of saying "i don't fucking know what exact style is being played". simple
Valentin B
Iconoclast

Posts: 10009

Age: 24
From: Poland

  21.09.2011 at 17:46
The listener determines the meaning and depth of the music that is heard. now i'm not saying someone can have a spiritual epiphany and rediscover God while listening to AC/DC, i'm saying that some people listen to progressive music and get a lot out of it, and there are others who only like how it sounds and that's that.

progressive music may take more time and effort to write and play, but that does not necessarily mean it's "deeper"
----
Sing me a song, you're a singer
Do me a wrong, you're a bringer of evil.
Introspekrieg
Totemic Lust

Posts: 2519

Age: 27
From: USA

  04.10.2011 at 06:15
Written by Hollberr on 01.08.2011 at 09:29

However, if we only focus on music, there's no doubt Prog Metal is way deeper. First, it is more complex and demands a higher musical knowledge than any other genres to appreciate, but also to write. You can't ask Metallica or Iron Maiden to make a good Progressive album. They just can't do it. You can, though, ask Dream Theater to make a thrash metal album and it's probably going to be VERY good (because of their talent).


Yet, when DT tried to cover Number Of The Beast and Master Of Puppets they both were absolutely TERRIBLE.

Written by Hollberr on 01.08.2011 at 09:29

Screaming SteelUs, you say there are many progheads who are arrogant and pretentious. I might be one of those. Not that I disrespect the Heavy metal fans or the thrash/hardcore fans, but I don't really like metal except Prog. It's too simple for me. I'm used to listening to classical music with very deep and complex melodies, and, except with Prog Metal, I don't find it elsewhere in the Metal scene. Bands such as Haken or Symphony X (I don't want to mention DT, it's too easy :p) have a special way to play with the scales, the rythm and the melodies, and this brings, for someone who analyses the sheet music, much more work than a... devildriver song.

So from the perspective of someone who studies music (forget the lyrics), Prog Metal is deeper - musically - than it's metal brothers.


This is everything that is wrong with the whole "Prog" mentality. It's a hipster community under the guise of something less superficial. Analyzing sheet music? Are you serious? I guess I can't fault you because you already openly admitted that you might be one of those arrogant and pretentious progheads. The only reason I'm being such a dick I guess is because I might be too pretentious to accept a misspelling of rhythm from someone who studies music... xD
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 16535

Age: 22
From: Canada

  04.10.2011 at 06:28
Always nice to see guys like Intro who appreciate the genre for what it is rather than walking around with their head up their ass, deaf and blind to the lesser forms of life that only have the capacity to comprehend an Iron Maiden song. Maybe I'd like the latest Opeth album more if I went to university and read The Wall Street Journal.
----
Prettier than BloodTears.
whatsacow

Posts: 1955

Age: 21
From: Australia

  04.10.2011 at 12:55
Written by Troy Killjoy on 04.10.2011 at 06:28

Always nice to see guys like Intro who appreciate the genre for what it is rather than walking around with their head up their ass, deaf and blind to the lesser forms of life that only have the capacity to comprehend an Iron Maiden song. Maybe I'd like the latest Opeth album more if I went to university and read The Wall Street Journal.

You don't have to be intelligent in anyway to like prog. Some people just like the the rythms, or fell the music more or something... stoners fucking love prog too lol. I wouldn't say I'm amazingly intelligent, and I love it... so I don't think ones intelligence has to do with it at all. People who are absolutely braindead like tool, for exmple... which is probably why they sell so well...
----
When God made up the golden rule, do you think he noticed that it condones rape?
Hollberr

Posts: 22

Age: 21
From: Canada
  04.10.2011 at 16:01
Written by Introspekrieg on 04.10.2011 at 06:15

Written by Hollberr on 01.08.2011 at 09:29

However, if we only focus on music, there's no doubt Prog Metal is way deeper. First, it is more complex and demands a higher musical knowledge than any other genres to appreciate, but also to write. You can't ask Metallica or Iron Maiden to make a good Progressive album. They just can't do it. You can, though, ask Dream Theater to make a thrash metal album and it's probably going to be VERY good (because of their talent).


Yet, when DT tried to cover Number Of The Beast and Master Of Puppets they both were absolutely TERRIBLE.

They are covers. They're not creative pieces. And I agree James Labrie is just a dick singing those songs! But that has nothing to do with Prog :p

Written by Hollberr on 01.08.2011 at 09:29

Screaming SteelUs, you say there are many progheads who are arrogant and pretentious. I might be one of those. Not that I disrespect the Heavy metal fans or the thrash/hardcore fans, but I don't really like metal except Prog. It's too simple for me. I'm used to listening to classical music with very deep and complex melodies, and, except with Prog Metal, I don't find it elsewhere in the Metal scene. Bands such as Haken or Symphony X (I don't want to mention DT, it's too easy :p) have a special way to play with the scales, the rythm and the melodies, and this brings, for someone who analyses the sheet music, much more work than a... devildriver song.

So from the perspective of someone who studies music (forget the lyrics), Prog Metal is deeper - musically - than it's metal brothers.


This is everything that is wrong with the whole "Prog" mentality. It's a hipster community under the guise of something less superficial. Analyzing sheet music? Are you serious? I guess I can't fault you because you already openly admitted that you might be one of those arrogant and pretentious progheads. The only reason I'm being such a dick I guess is because I might be too pretentious to accept a misspelling of rhythm from someone who studies music... xD


I'm actually studying music in a french university
You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not saying Prog metal is better than any other metal genres. I'm just saying it's more complex.
Dentura
Shadow King

Posts: 1075

Age: 20
From: USA

  07.12.2012 at 00:52
I would say that progressive music usually explores more themes and concepts than other forms of music do. Along with more technically complex music, the lyrics often take a more philosophical, or even mystical approach, like Yes for example, who made an album made up of four nearly 20 minute epics (Tales from Topographic Oceans) that explored lead singer Jon Anderson's interpretation of a large footnote of four Shastric scriptures which covered art, medicine, religion, social life, architecture, and music.
----
...And so death to the falsity of thy former rulers. Thy kingdom of "heaven" burns in a field of fire, and Dentura is the one true God thou must yield thy hearts and souls to in absolute submission. It is his ultimate decree and will unto thee..
Skeletonryche95

Posts: 16

Age: 18
From: UK

  27.11.2013 at 17:23
I guess that the non-repeating/non linear structure, hence the 'progressiveness' of the genre can be more conductive to more ambitious compositions and lyrics, and could possibly therefore have the potential to be more deep and meaningful, but how deep or meaningful something is really is up to the listener. it seems that quite a few prog lyricists do try to use language that makes there material sound more meaningful though. Whether it works is, again, entirely subjective.
BoxCar Willy
John Doe

Posts: 6852

Age: 17
From: Canada

  28.11.2013 at 01:10
No.
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Pop punk crusader
Daniell
GlenDronach!

Posts: 4852
From: Poland

  29.11.2013 at 13:02
How come I didn't notice this hilarious thread earlier
In short, I think that adding, or finding, extra, more profound meaning to any genre is preposterous and pathetic. It's like saying some shit smells sweeter than other

Music is just what it is, music. Deal with it.
----
Now loving:
Oranssi Pazuzu - Vino Verso
Fates Warning - And Yet It Moves
Death Angel - Territorial Instinct
Newsted - Nocturnus
LeKiwi
High Fist Prog

Posts: 956
From: UK
  03.01.2014 at 16:02
Written by Skeletonryche95 on 27.11.2013 at 17:23
ambitious compositions

This summarises prog. Whether the listener enjoys such ambition or not, it must be appreciated as it is not easily actualised
deadone
Nu Metal Warrior

Posts: 1944

Age: 34
From: Australia

  06.01.2014 at 01:31
Written by Daniell on 29.11.2013 at 13:02

How come I didn't notice this hilarious thread earlier
In short, I think that adding, or finding, extra, more profound meaning to any genre is preposterous and pathetic. It's like saying some shit smells sweeter than other

Music is just what it is, music. Deal with it.



Most excellent post.

Prog is neither more meaningful or deeper than any other genre of music.

It's all down to personal taste and expectations.

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