Written by JoHn Doe on 27.02.2023 at 15:42

6 means "average", 5 means "not good", so they are negative ratings

If something is "average" that is not necessarily negative if you ask me. It is right in the middle, which can be a good place to be. I would consider myself about average with many things, and that is absolutely fine for me.

Written by Redel on 27.02.2023 at 14:45

I dont find JimmyMagnetar's ratings suspicious.

Neither do I. In fact, his full use of the scale is more appropriate than the slew of all-10 voters that artificially inflate the scores of albums across the site. I could maybe make a case that I don't believe he has fairly judged so many albums deserving of a 1, but aside from that, I respect his critical assessment.

Written by Troy Killjoy on 07.03.2023 at 17:39

Written by Redel on 27.02.2023 at 14:45

I dont find JimmyMagnetar's ratings suspicious.

Neither do I. In fact, his full use of the scale is more appropriate than the slew of all-10 voters that artificially inflate the scores of albums across the site. I could maybe make a case that I don't believe he has fairly judged so many albums deserving of a 1, but aside from that, I respect his critical assessment.

I see the discussion about JimmyMagnetar is referring to my earlier post about him and I agree that his scale of rating is more appropiate than this user and this one. My problem is that he has rated, more often than not, half of the albums early in the morning on release day. So when I drink my coffee Friday morning and browse through the new releases and see all the 1-5 scores I already know it's him. And since this guy lives in Poland it means that he supposedly has been sitting up all night listening to all the newly released albums which I find highly unlikely. Like I wrote in my earlier post he just seems to skim through the new releases, instantly giving a low score if he doesn't like it. I wouldn't call that a nuanced way of rating but rather a sort of rating abuse also.
As the original post says: "The rating system should reflect the real overall opinion of the users on the album (duh), and it should help other users decide whether they would want to give the album a shot or not (among other factors, of course)."

A lot of users seem to rate albums just for the sake of rating. As much as I hate rate boosting I also hate rate bombing. I've never liked AC/DC but that doesn't mean I'll go and rate all their albums a 1 just as I wouldn't rate all Judas Priest albums a 10 just because they're one of my favourite bands. Also I would never rate an album higher than I think it deserves just to try and raise its score.

I can also refer to Redel who referred to himself and him rating similar to JimmyMagnetar. The difference is that he is an active user commenting and being a part of the community and he's been around since 2013. JimmyMagnetar has been here for less than 3 years and haven't posted a single comment or interacted on the site in any way. He's just here spamming ratings on release day, that's all and to me at least that's really annoying.

One solution though would be to make the voters hidden for everyone but the mods. Then you can't see who gave which rating and we wouldn't have a need for these discussions and the mods could deal with rating abuse they discover behind the scenes. I don't know if that is doable or not but it would be a solution.

(Sorry for lengthy post)

Written by Nejde on 07.03.2023 at 19:14

JimmyMagnetar has been here for less than 3 years and haven't posted a single comment or interacted on the site in any way. He's just here spamming ratings on release day, that's all and to me at least that's really annoying.

If it is true that he rates new releases this way I completely understand that you find it annoying. It is a non-favourable way of voting. But we should make a difference between a behavior that we find annoying and a behavior that can actually be called abusive with respect to our rules. And for me that is a far stretch in this particular case. When looking at our rules of voting the closest part that he could violate is fairness of the votes I would say. To me fairness is something in the lines of "same chances for all". And you could claim that not all albums he rates get the same chances of a high vote if he actually puts a low rate on most new releases after only having rushed through them for a couple of minutes -- which seems imaginable to me -- while he possibly listens multiple times to his favourite albums before giving them a final vote. That could be considered an unfair way of voting. But even here, to be honest, there are tons of albums that I gave a low rating after having listened to them not more than say twice, while I can assure you I have spun all my 9 and 10 albums dozens of times. And I am pretty sure that holds for many other people here as well. So are all these votes really unfair?

Bottom line: Lets talk about it if we observe rating behavior of a strange style, lets discuss it here in how far it is favorable or not and where exactly it might violate our rules of voting. But lets at the same time be cautious with calling it abusive. The topic is complex -- I guess I have said that before somewhere here.

Written by Nejde on 07.03.2023 at 19:14

One solution though would be to make the voters hidden for everyone but the mods. Then you can't see who gave which rating and we wouldn't have a need for these discussions and the mods could deal with rating abuse they discover behind the scenes. I don't know if that is doable or not but it would be a solution.

That is an interesting idea, I havent thought of that before. It is an option we should discuss whether we want it to be implemented. I am not too sure without having thought about it thoroughly. Dont you think it could make voting abuse more easy to conduct because there are fewer barriers when it becomes more intransparent? Dont know... just a thought.

Written by Redel on 07.03.2023 at 23:58

But even here, to be honest, there are tons of albums that I gave a low rating after having listened to them not more than say twice, while I can assure you I have spun all my 9 and 10 albums dozens of times.

The topic is complex

You're absolutely correct that it's a complex topic. Difference with you is that you comment regularly and is an active user. Here you even take the time to explain your way of rating and that you actually listen to the albums before casting a vote. I respect that. So even if it's not wrong to spam (mostly low) ratings on release day it might still affect other users to not check out a lesser known artist/album because of a 3 or a 4. For big bands an early low score doesn't really matter because they'll get 50-100 ratings just in the first couple of days which evens out the score and gives a more proper rating.
I myself used to skip albums with low scores even though they had just two or three votes but that was until I actually started to look at who's voting. This is how I came across JimmyMagnetar and other users rating almost everything new and realised that there's are those spamming ratings just for the sake of it. I don't bother with albums I don't like and I don't rate them if I haven't listened to more than a couple of minutes of it because then I can't give a fair rating. In my 13 years here I've only given three 5s and never a lower score. I also motivated those ratings in the comments. But that's just me.

Written by Redel on 07.03.2023 at 23:58

Written by Nejde on 07.03.2023 at 19:14

One solution though would be to make the voters hidden for everyone but the mods. Then you can't see who gave which rating and we wouldn't have a need for these discussions and the mods could deal with rating abuse they discover behind the scenes. I don't know if that is doable or not but it would be a solution.

That is an interesting idea, I havent thought of that before. It is an option we should discuss whether we want it to be implemented. I am not too sure without having thought about it thoroughly. Dont you think it could make voting abuse more easy to condur because there are fewer barriers when it becomes more intransparent? Dont know... just a thought.

The idea came from IMDb. There you don't know who gave the ratings unless they write a review. Although the problem with fake reviews is becoming quite prominent but unless you read the reviews you just see a score and with several thousand votes the score gets more statistically correct.
The problem I can see here is that too few people actually vote and especially on lesser known bands. It also would put way more responsibility on the mods and most of them are quite busy with other MS related things.

The solution might just be to not give a rat's ass about the scores and just check out what you might find interesting. This is also the reason why I don't rate that much and when I do I try add a comment to give others a little more to go on.

Written by Nejde on 08.03.2023 at 09:40

The solution might just be to not give a rat's ass about the scores and just check out what you might find interesting. This is also the reason why I don't rate that much and when I do I try add a comment to give others a little more to go on.

That is absolutely the way to go if you ask me, dont care about average ratings or other people's ratings in general. I have a hand or two full of people on this site whose opinion I value that much that I actually care about their rating, for the others I dont care at all.

And I dont give low ratings for the sake of telling other people how bad an album is btw (not that I understood you saying so). I just do it for myself to keep track of which albums I did not enjoy. So, from this point I would be absolutely fine with hidden private ratings.

You could also hide the rating until 5 or 10 people voted. That means a lot of albums wouldn't have a rating displayed ever, but a least it doesn't condemn them to be skipped over because of bad rating

Https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=330834
Apparently proceeded to listen to the whole discography of Attila, and rate them 1 every time. That's what I call perseverance !

Written by tibosax on 12.04.2023 at 01:30

Https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=330834
Apparently proceeded to listen to the whole discography of Attila, and rate them 1 every time. That's what I call perseverance !

Dealt with. Thank you for the link.

This user's ratings look suspicious to me.
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=330450&r_order=rating

Written by JoHn Doe on 20.04.2023 at 17:04

This user's rating look suspicious to me.
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=330450&r_order=rating

A lot of 1s and 10s. I am going to talk to the user. Thanks for pointing to it.

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=322083
Here's a potential one.

Written by F3ynman2000 on 01.05.2023 at 20:28

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=322083
Here's a potential one.

Yes, thanks for pointing it out. I have already reached out to the user.

We have started talking to a bunch of users recently, asking for a more balanced allocation of album ratings.
If you are among these users, please take our request seriously. It is really just meant to make sure that everybody follows our rules of album ratings.
At the same time we have deleted very unevenly distributed ratings, tanking entire discographies of bands with 10s, by users who have not been active for several years.

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=265176 would be a perfectly reasonable bell curve if not for the 5 or 6 bands whose entire discographies they've tanked.

Written by Sir Yupp on 26.05.2023 at 19:16

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=265176 would be a perfectly reasonable bell curve if not for the 5 or 6 bands whose entire discographies they've tanked.

Yes, there is a handful of bands with all 1 votes in their discography here. I am going to talk to the user about that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Lately, we have gone through the Top 200 of all time albums list and deleted several votes of 1/10 and 2/10 ratings on classic albums that are highly respected by the vast majority of our users.
In general, we let you decide on your own which albums you like and which not, and rate them accordingly. Saying that these albums are the 'worst ever' though is just totally disrespectful and violates our rules of album votes. That is why we may decide to erase such votes in the small number of cases where they seem to occur.

Written by Redel on 12.06.2023 at 23:12

Lately, we have gone through the Top 200 of all time albums list and deleted several votes of 1/10 and 2/10 ratings on classic albums that are highly respected by the vast majority of our users.
In general, we let you decide on your own which albums you like and which not, and rate them accordingly. Saying that these albums are the 'worst ever' though is just totally disrespectful and violates our rules of album votes. That is why we may decide to erase such votes in the small number of cases where they seem to occur.

Has this caused any big shifts in the ranking? I'm genuinely curious how big the effect of rating abuse is at the moment

Written by F3ynman2000 on 12.06.2023 at 23:42

Has this caused any big shifts in the ranking?

It has caused some shifts since not all albums were affected by this type of rating abuse to the same degree. You would see some albums jumping up several ranks, in particular around ranks 70-100 where things are tight, while others slided a few spots.
As to the top say 20 ranks shifts were naturally smaller since we have at the same time dealt with some rating abuse of the form of tanking discographies of the classic bands sitting in the top ranks like forever.

Written by Redel on 12.06.2023 at 23:12

Lately, we have gone through the Top 200 of all time albums list and deleted several votes of 1/10 and 2/10 ratings on classic albums that are highly respected by the vast majority of our users.

I know rating abuse consists in dragging albums or bands down with a bunch of 1s or 2s, but if you are to delete low scores on albums you think don't deserve them, I suggest you should review the rating system, getting rid of 1s-2s or the concept of averaging at all once. You might also delete a bunch of 10s or 9s on albums that are not that great. If you mean I can't rate Black Water Park a 2 or Lulu a 9, then lock the rating system all together it will be quicker.

Written by Ansercanagicus on 14.06.2023 at 00:25

I know rating abuse consists in dragging albums or bands down with a bunch of 1s or 2s, but if you are to delete low scores on albums you think don't deserve them, I suggest you should review the rating system, getting rid of 1s-2s or the concept of averaging at all once. You might also delete a bunch of 10s or 9s on albums that are not that great. If you mean I can't rate Black Water Park a 2 or Lulu a 9, then lock the rating system all together it will be quicker.

Locking the rating system or excluding 1s and 2s from it would go too far because average ratings are supposed to be determined by the individual votes of the users and the variation among them, plus you are generally allowed to use 1s and 2s in your votes, if you comply with the rules of voting.
Look, we are really just up here for detecting voting abuse in the form of manipulating average album ratings. And tanking entire discographies can fall under this type of abuse, as can picking single classic, highly respected albums from the Top 200 and claiming they are the "worst album ever". This is not to say that these are the only cases where such type of voting abuse occurs. Far from it, there is a lot of abuse going on among the 10 votes, where e.g. multiple accounts are used just to upvote single, favourite albums. And we are getting rid of them too, as soon as we identify them. The Top 200 list is just one obvious place to look out for this type of abuse. It is not the only place we are looking at, trust me.

Written by Redel on 14.06.2023 at 08:34

Look, we are really just up here for detecting voting abuse in the form of manipulating average album ratings. And tanking entire discographies can fall under this type of abuse, as can picking single classic, highly respected albums from the Top 200 and claiming they are the "worst album ever". This is not to say that these are the only cases where such type of voting abuse occurs.

So people aren't allowed to think a popular album is shit? Of course if it's an account that rates many popular albums poorly then there's some concern to be had, but if it's just one or two ratings in a user's whole list then I don't get it. I myself would consider giving a 2 or a 3 to an album like Bonded by Blood, would that rating be deleted simply because most people like the album?
I think Ansercanagicus' point was that if you go ahead and delete bad ratings simply because a majority of people think the album is good, then it makes 1s and 2s pointless and renders having a scale from 1 to 10 useless. And if that is indeed his point, then I 100% agree with it.

Written by Roman Doez on 14.06.2023 at 11:02

would that rating be deleted simply because most people like the album?

No, it would only be deleted if it can be assumed that the rating has been given with the intention to manipulate average album ratings. And in most of the cases it is really difficult to say if there is this intention or not. We would therefore always consider the entire picture of the users, take into account all information we have on them, before we rule that it is probably manipulation.

Written by Redel on 14.06.2023 at 11:17

No, it would only be deleted if it can be assumed that the rating has been given with the intention to manipulate average album ratings. And in most of the cases it is really difficult to say if there is this intention or not. We would therefore always consider the entire picture of the users, take into account all information we have on them, before we rule that it is probably manipulation.

Alright that's what I was scared of, thanks for the clarification

Written by Roman Doez on 14.06.2023 at 13:40

Alright that's what I was scared of, thanks for the clarification

No need to be scared. As I said somewhere else recently, your rating distribution looks good to me anyway.

New candidates for multiple account usage, first guy is a bit obvious:

1st

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335654
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335655
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335656
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335657
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335674

2nd

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335732
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335734

3rd

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335720
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335735
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335749
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335750

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335636 (maybe correlated)

4th

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335023
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335024
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335025
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335026
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335027
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335028
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335029

5th

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335219
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335229
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335234

6th

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335128
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335129

7th

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335430
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335429

8th

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335560
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335555



And some accounts with strange voting patterns/ or abusive top 200 influence:

Strange Voting Pattern:

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335574
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335642
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335701
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335150
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335037
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335033
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335007
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=334893
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=334726
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=334680

Top 200 Album Influence:

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335513
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335454 (maybe)
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335743 (maybe)
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=333986 (maybe)

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335712
(Out of the top 5 2023 albums, one gets a ten, the rest get 1's. Coincidence? I think not.)
Edit: now two of the votes have been changed to 3 and 5.


https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=322083
(129/210 votes are 10s. Perhaps a bit excessive. I don't know what the concensus here is on having too many 10's)

Written by F3ynman2000 on 08.07.2023 at 02:16

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335712
(Out of the top 5 2023 albums, one gets a ten, the rest get 1's. Coincidence? I think not.)
Edit: now two of the votes have been changed to 3 and 5.


https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=322083
(129/210 votes are 10s. Perhaps a bit excessive. I don't know what the concensus here is on having too many 10's)

I've already noticed and I'm looking into it.

Written by Nejde on 08.07.2023 at 15:37

Written by F3ynman2000 on 08.07.2023 at 02:16

https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=335712
(Out of the top 5 2023 albums, one gets a ten, the rest get 1's. Coincidence? I think not.)
Edit: now two of the votes have been changed to 3 and 5.


https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=322083
(129/210 votes are 10s. Perhaps a bit excessive. I don't know what the concensus here is on having too many 10's)

I've already noticed and I'm looking into it.

Another candidate maybe
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=171334&r_order=year

Edit: and another one. Lots of 10's and lots in the reds. No middle ground
https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=108390&r_order=year

As mentioned in the shoutbox, here are examples of rating the top 20 albums of 2023 in a very deliberate way
- https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=336013&r_order=year
- https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=334198&r_order=year
- https://metalstorm.net/users/album_votes.php?user_id=336054&r_order=year