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Darth Satanious
Post Destroyer

Posts: 2040

Age: 113
From: Puerto Rico

  12.04.2007 at 22:18


Krypteria is a German Symphonic Heavy/Power Metal band formed in 2004. Their music has a focus in Heavy/Power Metal that can get a little groovy at moments with the addition of synths that make Krypteria's sound to be accompanied by a chorus of voices speaking in Latin (a must for them in a lot of their songs and one of the catchiest aspects of their music I would say), violins, etc.

Not only that, the South Korean female singer Ji-In Cho,



who took classes of classical singing at Musikhochschule Cologne, also gives her other talent at instruments by additionally playing piano as can be appreciated in the song "Somebody Save Me":

Music video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX2CxncN2ak

Yet, the band do not limit themselves to the style previously described but they come up with charming ballads such as "Liberatio" (a video for this song was made in response to the Tsunami that took the lives of the people in Asia) and the "Victoriam Speramus" song that is a pretty curious song since it starts with this heavy Symphonic side that shifts and alternates to Ji-In Cho's sweet and tranquil vocals that are then accompanied by the slow drumming of Kuschnerus who plays in a rhythm reminiscent to that of a Pop song; a somber Pop segment I would call it. Here is the video for the "Victoriam Speramus" song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt8wxgfd77A&mode=related&search=

This video reminds me of that one from Xandria for their "Eversleeping" song, only that it has a more supernatural and medieval focus.

Now, in several websites I have seen this band being labeled as Gothic. What the band offers is just these piano segments, violin synths, and soft female vocals that give a somber, tragic, sad, and sorrowful sound to the band at moments. It is claimed by pseudo Gothic Metal experts that these features are not a reason for labeling a band as Gothic Metal; that, in order to give such categorization to a band, it is imperative that it takes influences from Gothic Rock and/or the Darkwave music. However, this claim is debatable for we are to question how taking influence from either of those different types of music can earn a band the categorization of Gothic Metal. These so called experts seem to be too busy by being stuck in those Batcave and early Gothic subculture days as to question themselves why taking influence from either Gothic Rock or Darkwave (including Synthpop, Industrial Music, etc.) should be pillars to limit what is considered as Gothic Metal. What makes these separate types of music to exclusively define what would be Gothic Metal? If Gothic Rock and Darkwave are not connected musically (apart from the bands that merge the aspects of both musical genres), why should they be seen as connected? If there is no direct musical connection between these genres, why leaving behind those bands that assure to have a Gothic Metal approach with their music? In order to see what really defines Gothic as music, it should first be established what Gothic Rock and Darkwave really share, what is that which unifies them. Only then we are to see what can really defines Gothic Metal and not some frustrated Goths who try to separate themselves from the rest. Knowledge is nothing if you don't have the wisdom to use it.


Krypteria's Official Website:

http://www.krypteria.de/

Krypteria at MySpace:

http://www.myspace.com/krypteria
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Christless
Bitch Boy
XD

Posts: 1353

Age: 28
From: Mexico

  12.04.2007 at 22:56
I heard the samples at the Myspace page and they have a very cool sound. Ji-In's vocals are average, nothing really great but still good.

I think their genre is "symphonic metal", of course they've got some gothic elements but almost the whole atmosphere is created by the orchestra.

Thanks for the recommendation
Susan
Smeghead

Posts: 6068

Age: 31
From: USA

  13.04.2007 at 06:05
There is nothing "heavy" or "power" metal about this band

I listened to their "Bloodangel's Cry" album and did NOT like it. It was very disappointed after reading all that they had to say about themselves. The guitar work I felt to be very punchy, harsh and -coreish at times. Definitely would recommend this band to fans of the newest Within Temptation album

The singer's voice is very weak and uninteresting; most importantly it's ill-suited for metal. I guess the fact that she's hot and "took classes of classical singing" makes her qualified?
----
"A life all mine
Is what I choose
At the end of my days"
--The Gathering "A Life All Mine" from Souvenirs
Darth Satanious
Post Destroyer

Posts: 2040

Age: 113
From: Puerto Rico

  18.04.2007 at 19:55
Written by Bitch Boy on 12.04.2007 at 22:56

I heard the samples at the Myspace page and they have a very cool sound. Ji-In's vocals are average, nothing really great but still good.

I think their genre is "symphonic metal", of course they've got some gothic elements but almost the whole atmosphere is created by the orchestra.

Thanks for the recommendation


I am glad that at least you liked them a bit. Regarding the vocalist's talent, I will discuss this in the other part of my post. Whether the band can be Gothic or not is arguable, maybe because of how hard I find to define what Gothic Metal is among so much contradiction in what is claimed to be this wide subgenre.

Written by Susan on 13.04.2007 at 06:05

There is nothing "heavy" or "power" metal about this band

I listened to their "Bloodangel's Cry" album and did NOT like it. It was very disappointed after reading all that they had to say about themselves. The guitar work I felt to be very punchy, harsh and -coreish at times. Definitely would recommend this band to fans of the newest Within Temptation album

The singer's voice is very weak and uninteresting; most importantly it's ill-suited for metal. I guess the fact that she's hot and "took classes of classical singing" makes her qualified?


Of course there isn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TelpHvd0V94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtslQG7Crzo

These songs must be Polka or something.

I don't know anything about that but I guess that you may be talking about some possible bragging from them about their music and what you may see as unjustified. However, this may be a demonstration of weakness in personality and not a reason for judging the music. Thus, that should not change the way to appreciate their music in the slightest. Beethoven was an egoistic son of a bitch and that is no reason for condemning his music. Of course, the gap between talent and possibly what we could see as justified confidence between Beethoven and a band as Krypteria is obvious, but I am not talking about justifying confidence and the ego but of how this should not be a reason for judging the music. External factors to music should not be a filter in how to appreciate music. Maybe you just mentioned this for the sake of bringing it up but, in case that this can get to be considered as a reason for taking away credibility from their music, I wrote the previous.

You consider the guitar to be "coreish" in the context of Hardcore? You see no Heavy Metal in Krypteria yet you see Hardcore in it? That is pretty amusing. There is this tendency of throwing bands that have a focus in rhythm into the Hardcore "trash can" these days.

I am glad that you mentioned Within Temptation here since this will make everything easier. If you are to suggest this band to fans of the new Within Temptation, the recommendation should not be limited to the latest that Within Temptation has offered but to all that the band has offered as a whole since what I can only relate per se to those bands are the weak vocals (weak in contrast to other vocalist that I may regard as having a better voice and being more prepared). If you don't agree with me, tell me what makes Sharon's voice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6nDF9pRUPQ

the ultimate female vocals.

Ji-In Cho's vocals are weak only in comparison to other female vocalist that may have a superior voice, yet this I see as no reason for not enjoying both her voice and the bands music. For example, Kimberly Goss' vocals are not the best out there and yet that does not keep you from enjoying them and her band, right?

Regarding the guitar playing of the guys at Krypteria, it is far from impressive. Yet, these bands can't be judged with the same parameters than the rest in other possible subgenres. When I say "these bands" I am referring to those bands that rely in vocals and the pronunciation of words and sentences in order to catch the listener. This is the case of bands such as for example Krypteria, Within Temptation, Poisonblack, later Sentenced, etc. The instrumentation in these bands tends to have the goal of accompanying the vocals and/or creating bridges to it, instead of actually having more prominence than vocals or at least sharing the focus with them in the songs.

If Krypteria's vocals are or are not suited for Metal that is a matter of opinion and that can be respected. Now, I pretty much enjoy them there as they are so you can more or less see how much weight that assertion has.

No, it doesn't. She can sing, perhaps her voice is not as powerful as other singers but I find it enjoyable nonetheless. The above was a mention of her studies, nothing more. You can study all you want and if the studies or the talent is not seen, it makes no difference. I hope that you are not assuming that her appearance is the reason for liking the music. Some people cannot see beyond what they have in front and are unable to see more to things than those that are the closest to them. It isn't as if you have the ultimate taste in music, such thing does not exist.
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Christless
Bitch Boy
XD

Posts: 1353

Age: 28
From: Mexico

  18.04.2007 at 20:22
Who's the operatic vocalist accompaining Sharon den Adel in that video??

Now, talking about Ji-In's vocals, I can't say whether she can sing for metal or not. I mean, her voice doesn't sound bad with the music. If Tarja's vocals aren't similar to Cristina Scabbia or Kimberly Goss, then we can't say that some other different voice like Ji-In's can't fit metal, as there's no standard female voice for metal. Maybe she only needs more vocal training in order to sound a little bit stronger.
Lupas
Maximus

Posts: 3066

Age: 36
From: Malta

  18.04.2007 at 22:34
@Darth Satanious: Thanks . Another band to have a look for. Nice voice . Never heard of but from the samples they have @youtube they are underestimated . Their type is more symphonic metal to me but any way great suggestion
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"For what point has this life if you can't realise your dreams?" -- The Divine Comedy
GT
Coffee!!

Posts: 5058

Age: 32
From: Denmark

  18.04.2007 at 22:36
The music is really good, but I agree with Bitch Boy: Ji-In's voice needs a little more power. No doubt that she can sing just need that little extra to make it perfect
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Dreams are made so we don't get bored when we sleep
Darth Satanious
Post Destroyer

Posts: 2040

Age: 113
From: Puerto Rico

  19.04.2007 at 16:02
@Bitch Boy: I have been looking for her name but to no avail... That is totally true. There are vocals that perhaps are characteristic of Metal but which never limit the genre. Limiting Metal is not possible and I think that bands along the years have proven that. Of course, if their experimentation works or not, is up to you to decide.

@lupas: Glad that you liked them. The prominence in their Symphonic side is indeed undeniable.

@GT: Yes. Well, there is always room for improvement so I can agree with that.

Well guys, since you put me in a good mood, I give you the link to their "Victoriam Speramus" video. The quality is great; I think it is in either in AVI or XviD format. As far as I remember, you don't need a password to take it from the RAR archival. Anyway, if you need the password, just let me now, ok? Enjoy:

http://rapidshare.com/files/14475216/Krypteria_-_Victoriam_Speramus.avi
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Christless
duyhung
Account deleted
  19.04.2007 at 18:12
@Darth-Satanious: thanks for the video
Mela Muke
Account deleted
  20.04.2007 at 22:53
I'm quite a fan of the old femme metal but this I found slightly disappointing.
The vocals are sugar-pop from an okay singer, obviously the focus point of the band, which is a shame as it was pointed out, she is unsuited to the band.
Not so much symphony metal as this new breed of female fronted pop-metal. Fans of Xandria and Lunatica should approve.
Susan
Smeghead

Posts: 6068

Age: 31
From: USA

  21.04.2007 at 00:36
Written by Guest on 20.04.2007 at 22:53

I'm quite a fan of the old femme metal but this I found slightly disappointing.
The vocals are sugar-pop from an okay singer, obviously the focus point of the band, which is a shame as it was pointed out, she is unsuited to the band.
Not so much symphony metal as this new breed of female fronted pop-metal. Fans of Xandria and Lunatica should approve.


I agree whole-heartedly. It's disappointing to watch the formation of this pop-metal genre over the last few years that 99% of time has a light poppy female vocalist (who is always very attractive, of course). Bands like this give a band name to soprano-fronted bands who actually have power and talent.
----
"A life all mine
Is what I choose
At the end of my days"
--The Gathering "A Life All Mine" from Souvenirs
Lupas
Maximus

Posts: 3066

Age: 36
From: Malta

  21.04.2007 at 08:28
Written by Susan on 21.04.2007 at 00:36

Written by Guest on 20.04.2007 at 22:53

I'm quite a fan of the old femme metal but this I found slightly disappointing.
The vocals are sugar-pop from an okay singer, obviously the focus point of the band, which is a shame as it was pointed out, she is unsuited to the band.
Not so much symphony metal as this new breed of female fronted pop-metal. Fans of Xandria and Lunatica should approve.


I agree whole-heartedly. It's disappointing to watch the formation of this pop-metal genre over the last few years that 99% of time has a light poppy female vocalist (who is always very attractive, of course). Bands like this give a band name to soprano-fronted bands who actually have power and talent.



It don't think so. Many well know bands like Sirenia and Tristania are getting into this metal scence . Yes they are pop metal but for me being a fan of these two and also Xandria , Lunatica , Edenbridge , this band has talent .
The vocalist need to improve but who begin at the top from the begining.
----
"For what point has this life if you can't realise your dreams?" -- The Divine Comedy
Susan
Smeghead

Posts: 6068

Age: 31
From: USA

  21.04.2007 at 08:39
But it's not just the incredibly weak vocals. The band's instrumental music is generic and bland. They seem to be relying completely on the "hot chick" factor and that's depressing.
----
"A life all mine
Is what I choose
At the end of my days"
--The Gathering "A Life All Mine" from Souvenirs
Lupas
Maximus

Posts: 3066

Age: 36
From: Malta

  21.04.2007 at 08:43
For me it is not the matter of hot chick
I see that they must improve but they begin in a good way
----
"For what point has this life if you can't realise your dreams?" -- The Divine Comedy
Mela Muke
Account deleted
  21.04.2007 at 16:23
"It don't think so. Many well know bands like Sirenia and Tristania are getting into this metal scence ."

whoawhoawhoa slow down! Tristania are symphonic pop metal? When did this happen? oh thats right it didn't! Tristania and the late Vibeke remain one of the more decent bands within the femme genre, with a singer that doesn't need to carry the band by her pretty face.

As for Sirenia, yes well it would be hard for the new vocalist to carry anything alongside that push-up bra, for christ sake, no wonder many metalheads consider femme metal a joke, pretty much like Sirenia's later album, its a joke!
BestMetalstormer

Posts: 3305

Age: 26
From: Vietnam

  21.04.2007 at 17:12
This band had been in Vietnam for the feb month, even the thread created before the show, I still couddnt join.

I think her voice is good, and her music is metal, some songs mix with rock. Her is good for me if considering that Im not too much strict of picking voice. Thats what I think after checking their myspace
duyhung
Account deleted
  22.04.2007 at 09:26
Written by BestMetalstormer on 21.04.2007 at 17:12

This band had been in Vietnam for the feb month, even the thread created before the show, I still couddnt join.

I think her voice is good, and her music is metal, some songs mix with rock. Her is good for me if considering that Im not too much strict of picking voice. Thats what I think after checking their myspace

They've been in Vietnam twice,in 2006 and 2007
Lupas
Maximus

Posts: 3066

Age: 36
From: Malta

  23.04.2007 at 18:59
Written by Guest on 21.04.2007 at 16:23

"It don't think so. Many well know bands like Sirenia and Tristania are getting into this metal scence ."

whoawhoawhoa slow down! Tristania are symphonic pop metal? When did this happen? oh thats right it didn't! Tristania and the late Vibeke remain one of the more decent bands within the femme genre, with a singer that doesn't need to carry the band by her pretty face.

As for Sirenia, yes well it would be hard for the new vocalist to carry anything alongside that push-up bra, for christ sake, no wonder many metalheads consider femme metal a joke, pretty much like Sirenia's later album, its a joke!



When one have listen to their both last albums , he may conclude that they are some kind of pop metal bands. I know quite well Tristania and Sirenia, from the very begining . They both ends with two albums that vary with a great margin their first album. Personally i prefer their first albums but they are always good . Their orentation differ to more widen listeners .
----
"For what point has this life if you can't realise your dreams?" -- The Divine Comedy
Mela Muke
Account deleted
  25.04.2007 at 19:19
I have listened to both Illumination and NDAD and still fail to see the comparison. Tristania have produced a 'more upbeat' version of Ashes, sure but the late Vibeke's vocals add that classical element that Sirenia painfully lacks. Variation from early work doesn't mean they've slipped into the realm of symphonic pop (femme bands of which include Elis, Xandria, Kypteria) I don't count any form of Tristania amongst them.

Sirenia's previous efforts were alright expect Morten was churning out the same stuff as before, NDAD just proves that he is loosing his touch.
Lupas
Maximus

Posts: 3066

Age: 36
From: Malta

  27.04.2007 at 23:30
@Darth Satanious.

Thanks Darth , you have give me a new band for my collection and i love their music :thumbup:
----
"For what point has this life if you can't realise your dreams?" -- The Divine Comedy
KryptoN
imperceptible

Posts: 634

Age: 28
From: Finland

  29.04.2007 at 18:53
I'm listening to "Bloodangel's Cry" at the moment.

Vocals: Very weak. At first it sounds ok but gets very annoying after a while.
Soundscape: Ok. Pretty heavy and grand. Tries to be "epic" but fails.
Uniformity: Weak. Song after song they keep jumping on your face as if they were from a whole different album
Catchiness: Average. Some very catchy riffs but at this point that's not much help.

I'll give it a few more spins but so far doesn't look good. I guess it's just not for me, but check them out anyway if you like those bands that are listed on this thread.

I have a chance to see them live in Nummirock this year (the reason I checked this band out) but I'm not so sure I'm gonna go see them.
dismaleuphony
Razorbliss

Posts: 3253

Age: 37
From: USA

  30.04.2007 at 09:27
I just can't get into this band. It's got a lot of the elements there, but just doesn't feel genuine, and certainly not artistic on the level that I look for. They are fine for an opening band at a local club to support better and more interesting acts, but that's about as far as I'd go. There isn't a shred of originality in it from what I can see.
----
"Our time's approaching, we seem to lose control.
So many things we should have done before we died."
--- To Cast A Shadow, "The Answer"
Hyvaarin

Posts: 1487

Age: 26
From: France

  30.04.2007 at 15:42
Wow, this is a profoundly unimpressive band. Same generic lyrics, visuals, vocal lines, MySpace appearance (ie. default picture of only the singer), etc. that you'd expect from one of these bands. The break at the end of the "Somebody Save Me" chorus is hilariously poppy, too.
----
"Summoned By Words Never Spoken Before..."
Darth Satanious
Post Destroyer

Posts: 2040

Age: 113
From: Puerto Rico

  18.05.2007 at 06:41
@ duyhung:

Enjoy.

@ lupas:

No prob.

Written by Guest on 20.04.2007 at 22:53

I'm quite a fan of the old femme metal but this I found slightly disappointing.
The vocals are sugar-pop from an okay singer, obviously the focus point of the band, which is a shame as it was pointed out, she is unsuited to the band.
Not so much symphony metal as this new breed of female fronted pop-metal. Fans of Xandria and Lunatica should approve.


Written by Susan on 21.04.2007 at 00:36

Written by Guest on 20.04.2007 at 22:53

I'm quite a fan of the old femme metal but this I found slightly disappointing.
The vocals are sugar-pop from an okay singer, obviously the focus point of the band, which is a shame as it was pointed out, she is unsuited to the band.
Not so much symphony metal as this new breed of female fronted pop-metal. Fans of Xandria and Lunatica should approve.


I agree whole-heartedly. It's disappointing to watch the formation of this pop-metal genre over the last few years that 99% of time has a light poppy female vocalist (who is always very attractive, of course). Bands like this give a band name to soprano-fronted bands who actually have power and talent.


Why both of you seem to be regarding Pop music as derogatory? Pop music has its share of talented singers; just look at Christina Aguilera and Jessica Simpson. Christina Aguilera has an amazing voice and has even made performances singing for Jazz. Jessica Simpson has an amazing voice and can reach some high notes which can bring chills down anyone's spine. Unfortunately the later, Simpson, is drowned in commerciality and under the control of the record labels and this is no assumption but an observation based in facts. Perhaps Christina could also be but I ignore that. Anyway, these are talented singers and, in spite of their music not appealing to me, their talent is and should be recognized. Therefore, Pop music has talent and any relation to it should not be used as an aspect to undervalue music.

"Bands like this" don't give a bad name to "soprano-fronted" bands because there is no relation between these bands. Where do you see the comparison? Since you have brought Tristania to the panorama, allow me to bring something up. There are sopranos in Classical music that can make that Vibeke of Tristania to run and hide under a table just as she solely gets to listen to a simple verse that comes from their mouth and throat. What do you think? Do you think that being a soprano immediately gives the singer a label of ultimate vocalist? Sopranos can be generic too as other singers and maybe Vibeke would hardly have any chance of shinning as a singer by herself if it weren't for how Metal presented her a way to share her talent. Maybe she could have had a chance of being in a chorus but hardly as to shine by herself as other sopranos. Do you see the relativity of talent? Does this make you enjoy a tiny bit less Tristania and Vibeke's voice? Just because there are more talented musicians than others, it doesn't mean that you won't like the music of them. It is a matter of personal taste.

Please, do not try to bring back points which I have argued against without replying or arguing back. It was clearly argued that considering a vocalist suited or not for a Metal bands is completely subjective, yet you people try to keep bringing that up without arguing that back. You know, for example, sopranos weren't present in the beginning of Metal and thus someone could easily argue that sopranos are not fit for Metal, does that make any difference in how you regard the music that these bands come up with?

Written by Susan on 21.04.2007 at 08:39

But it's not just the incredibly weak vocals. The band's instrumental music is generic and bland. They seem to be relying completely on the "hot chick" factor and that's depressing.


Can you tell me where is the virtuosity of early Within Temptation? The drummer is seems to be crippled, the guitarist seems to do no other thing than jamming at the guitar, and the vocals I perceive as weak in contrast to other singers as Krypteria's vocalist. Do you still like early Within Temptation? I recommend you not to throw rocks that can be easily returned back to you.

You don't even take the time to ask what we got to know first: the music of the band or the appearance of the front-woman and yet you easily assume the reasons behind liking or not the music of Krypteria. I can't say shit about the rest but the appearance of the vocalist is one thing and the music is other for me. I can't deny that I enjoy her appearance and that I come to praise this that I see as the collision of both "given" or "received-out-of-coincidence" attributes" with the environment/freewill that comes to give as result an attractive talented singer, but yet when I don't like someone's music I don't like it and that is the final point in spite of how attractive a singer can be, for example. Please, don't assume and try to generalize with everyone.

Written by BestMetalstormer on 21.04.2007 at 17:12

This band had been in Vietnam for the feb month, even the thread created before the show, I still couddnt join.

I think her voice is good, and her music is metal, some songs mix with rock. Her is good for me if considering that Im not too much strict of picking voice. Thats what I think after checking their myspace


That is a nice observation you have made which I completely forgot all about. They also add Rock to the mix.
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Christless
Mela Muke
Account deleted
  19.05.2007 at 03:24
…. okkies…

I have been using the term 'pop' as a derogative term because I mostly find that artists of that scene lack the talent and diversity that metal has to offer and often tries to accommodate for this factor with the 'pretty face' of the artist, the fact that you have choose such two artists that would be nowhere if not for their commercial attractiveness only reaffirms my stance.

And talent my dear is subjective. I do not find either singer particularly talented. Not forgetting all them nice vocal altering computer programs those recording studios! Yes musicians use them all the time, don't be naïve.

The majority of pop is for people too lazy to write their own material or play their own instruments. I mean, how many metal bands do you know that have outside writers? They under the thumb of others (as you yourself have acknowledged with regards to JS), they are a product, nothing more, nothing less.

Well, well sopranos better then Vibeke Stene, well I never? I assume you mean Anna Netrebko, Sarah Brightman, Angela Gheorghiu, Karita Mattila or Emma Shapplin? Yes I know an Soprano when I hear one. However what these ladies don't have in common with Vibeke is that none of them are in metal bands, they are all in fact Divas of the stage. I hate to be the one to break it to you but singing on stage (in the classical sense) is very different from singing on stage as part of a metal band. For one a true soprano needs not a microphone, first give away there! For that reason I can tell you that not one female singer in metal perform completely soprano, merely they employ operatic techniques to their work.

Where did I say that being a soprano makes you a better singer? Having power, grace and dynamic makes you a better singer. Having distinction makes you a better singer. As for Vibeke not shining without her band, well she must have done something right, for in the beginning Vibeke was a backing singer, she was part of their choir, but the band being that impressed with her vocals made her an official member. Which I believe was a very wise more as I don't think they would be as successful without her contribution.

Further Vibeke isn't my favourite female singer, there are a few I think are more talented, but I don't disregard her because I find her "less talented", however I shall disregard someone I think has zero talented. What's the point in saying, this person is talented when they are not?

I wonder if you have been reading my posts as I haven't been arguing about where sopranos are suitable for metal, my posts have concerned this new wave of 'gothic-female' bands that are appearing from no where.

Quote:
It is a matter of personal taste.


its a pity you couldn't follow your own advice before getting hostal because people don't share the same opinion as you
Susan
Smeghead

Posts: 6068

Age: 31
From: USA

  19.05.2007 at 10:41
Written by Guest on 19.05.2007 at 03:24

Quote:
It is a matter of personal taste.


its a pity you couldn't follow your own advice before getting hostal because people don't share the same opinion as you


Yes! I do wish more people would respect that idea...


It's really of no use to respond to people like Darth Satanius. They look for arguments and will say anything to provoke you into responding. It's best just to ignore, let him twist your words, and say whatever he's going to say.

Let's get back on topic, shall we?
----
"A life all mine
Is what I choose
At the end of my days"
--The Gathering "A Life All Mine" from Souvenirs
Darth Satanious
Post Destroyer

Posts: 2040

Age: 113
From: Puerto Rico

  22.05.2007 at 04:50
Written by Guest on 19.05.2007 at 03:24


…. okkies…



"I have been using the term 'pop' as a derogative term because I mostly find that artists of that scene lack the talent"

You say that Pop lacks the talent that Metal has to offer. hmm, before arguing about that, allow me to quote you in something you wrote here:

"And talent my dear is subjective."

With these words you are saying that the appreciation of talent is based in personal opinion and in this way you are canceling yourself the first argument you brought against Pop music. Or am I wrong, dear?

I can tell you that I can recognize more complex compositions in some Metal songs than in Pop songs. So I do find more complex compositions in Metal songs than in some Classical music pieces and vice versa. Now, not all bands in Metal make outstanding and virtuous musical compositions. The level of musicianship, of talent displayed by the musicians in their instruments varies and that makes the bands' talent to fluctuate between them. As an example of this, taking one song from a band from your profile such as "Era Aggression" and comparing it to one song from for example To-Mera. We know that To-Mera incorporates Jazz to their Progressive Metal mix among all the technicality and musical prowess. The difference in composition and instrument execution between songs of both bands is evident, perhaps you disagree? If not, you can tell that To-Mera for example comes to compose more complex music than Darzamat which is a band you seem to enjoy, right?

This is what I have been trying to state in my previous posts. Talent and composition's complexity varies. If we are to rule ourselves parting from a certain level of virtuosity in music or only listening to the most complex compositions, then we would be listening to the most exceeding bands in these aspects and I assure you that bands such as Tristania, Darzamat, Krypteria, Within Temptation, Nightwish, etc. wouldn't be among those.

That is why all the arguing I have done so far stands for. This argument of rejecting a musical genre for not having the complexity in composition is a feeble effort of justifying a personal opinion. If it weren't, then you would have to apply this condition to the bands you are listening to, otherwise you are going against what you are predicating. I coincidentally read an article in the newspaper today which had a curious quote which I find rather fitting for this argument: "when something is being predicated, the predicator has to practice it." To put in a simpler manner how this argument of disqualifying music for being less complex works, here I give you the following example: this woman is listening to Pop and you tell her that Nightwish's music is more complex than the Pop she is listening to, Pop music is now worthless. You are listening to Nightwish and a Dream Theater fan tells you that his band comes up with more complex music than Nightwish, Nightwish's music is now worthless, and so on and so on.

I don't have anything against the bands I have brought here: Tristania, Nightwish, Darzamat and Within Temptation. In fact, possibly I may enjoy their music more than Krypteria's, I am not sure because I don't pass my life asking myself which bands I like more than which bands. I just brought these bands in order to demonstrate how relative can be for you people to regard talent as the definite parameter to consider when picking favorite bands for example and therefore, how having less talent in comparison to other bands should not be a reason to undervalue Pop or Krypteria's music (as I discussed previously). That is all. In the bottom line, you can say how much you dislike and disdain Pop and Kryoteria's music, I respect how you feel about their music, but when you are trying to grasp reasons such as this discussed argument to justify why you don't like the genre or band, I can argue against it and, due to its inconsistency, consider possibilities of why you bring them up and, among them, I can name the unjustified bashing to the band and genre. That is why I compel for respect to personal taste.

You know, I am not asking to be blind against real observations of which musical genres or which bands are more talented than which, I can easily point out which bands have more talented musicians under their ranks, but I am just questioning if you people indeed listen to the most complex compositions and talented bands that are around as to have the right to justify the dismissal of Pop and Krypteria's music with the argument that Metal has more talent than Pop and that there are more talented bands than Krypteria.

"and diversity that metal has to offer"

Similarly, considering the diversity of a genre against another genre can be comparable to the discussion of talent. We can bring here the development and eventual diversity of Jazz music if you want. We can compare those musical genres and I ask you: if Jazz comes to be more varied than Metal, would you like Jazz from now on over Metal? This is when personal taste enters and demonstrates its importance over these external factors to musical preference.

But regarding the diversity of Pop music, this musical genre can be definitely varied. The themes of the song, apart from the focus of the singer, can be presented with guitars, trumpets, electronic music, piano, etc., and even a combination of the previous. It isn't as if the music is stagnated.

"and often tries to accommodate for this factor with the 'pretty face' of the artist, the fact that you have choose such two artists that would be nowhere if not for their commercial attractiveness only reaffirms my stance."

"Not forgetting all them nice vocal altering computer programs those recording studios! Yes musicians use them all the time, don't be naïve."


I have to point out that you said "often", right? Have you seen examples when the record labels don't resort to the appearance of the singers when singing them? Or are you leaving the possibility opened for exceptions to this tendency? That would be wise and that is a self-affirmation from yourself that you cannot generalize without the proper knowledge.

But concerning the importance that you seem to see that record labels give to attractiveness when signing singers, I have to say that in order to discuss this I have to get acquainted of how the signing of singers takes form by the record labels. It is very easy for both of us to wonder and imagine how record labels choose singers, and perhaps our imagination may be helped with how record labels are portrayed in works of fictions such as movies and in anecdotes that we have gotten to know. However, it is impossible to generalize with one, two, or three examples in how all record labels work. Besides, you are not considering the possibility that there is indeed a Pop singer who is both talented and attractive at the same time.

Let's play with the idea that all artists that will be signed by the record labels have to be attractive. We would have to see record labels as filters and the artists of this musical genre as filtered artists. Maybe a singer who does not have the appearance that record labels consider to be attractive won't be able to find a smooth way through this musical genre, but what about those singers who are filtered and that do have the talent?

Recently, Ashlee Simpson, Jessica Simpson's sister, has been subject of much criticism after what some people consider to have been horrible live performances and the constant use of her recorded songs played in TV programs instead of her own voice when performing, what some people consider to be an effort of evading to sing (or try) to sing live because she has no talent. I can't talk much about this because I haven't seen her performing but I wanted to use this case and see it as a possible example of what you say. If this case is to be real, this would be a record label using the appearance of a non-talented singer in order to sell records. Let's try to play with the thought that this is indeed real and that Ashlee has no talent at all. Can we generalize about the talent that all Pop music artist have? Can we generalize that all Pop music artists' voices are altered in studio so that the recording will hide their weak or arguable no ability of singing?

I can only think that the wisest thing to do in this case is to judge each Pop music singers by separate and don't try to encase them all and damn them all and doom the all in the same hole.

"the fact that you have choose such two artists that would be nowhere if not for their commercial attractiveness only reaffirms my stance."

I don't know how you can be so sure when you say that these two singers wouldn't succeed if it were for their appearance. They both have gifted voices that can shine separately from their appearance. Perhaps their appearance may have helped them in their way to success, that is a possibility but, in a hypothetical case in which they don't look the way they do and that they would be rejected for not being attractive, their rejection could have been an injustice.

You may not believe me when I tell you that their voices are over-average. I don't know if you have seen live performances of these singers, but tell me if you don't need any talent to sing like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNV0A5J0GIM

If you don't see the talent, I will gladly give you my address so that you can record a video of yourself easily singing like this and then send it to my home for viewing pleasure.

There are talented singers in Pop music and there are some which aren't. We have to see which ones do have the talent and which don't and evade the generalizations.

"The majority of pop is for people too lazy to write their own material or play their own instruments. I mean, how many metal bands do you know that have outside writers? They under the thumb of others (as you yourself have acknowledged with regards to JS), they are a product, nothing more, nothing less."

"Majority", this previous word implies that you have the undisputable knowledge and statistics of contrast between the Pop artists who don't write their own material versus the artists that do. Moreover, when you say the majority you are acknowledging that there are a number of artists that do write their own material and thus I ask you: can you criticize these Pop artists that do write their material of not writing their material?

Maybe you can say that there are artists there that do not write their material, that is acceptable, but what about those who do? That is what I am talking about: we have to judge the artists by separate. And if there are artists that put their faces for the Pop music in this sense, it is impossible to damn the genre as a whole in this aspect.

On the other hand, I think you are confusing musicians with composers in this discussion. I do see Pop singers playing their instruments; don't you see them singing and thus playing their internal instrument? You know, there is a difference between how a Pop artists and a band works. A band is complemented with each of its members and a Pop artist, in the better example of talent, is a voice which is accompanied by the compositions of people behind the song.

Now, lets separate the members of a band and see what they do each other for the band. For example, correct me if I am wrong but as far as what I know Tarja only provided vocals for Nightwish without helping in the composition of the songs, right? What participation did Tarja has in the composing of Nightwish music that a Pop singer which does not compose anything has in her music? Even if Tarja did help in the compositions, there are musicians in bands that are only there providing their skills to play while the compositions are in charge of part or the rest of the band.

Furthermore, does a soprano or a tenor compose the verses he sings in the plays? Or is he an instrument? I bet that there must be an exception, why not? But what I want to separate here is what being a musician implies and what being a composer implies. Of course, being both a composer and a musician gives more prestige to the person but not being a composer is not a reason to undervalue the talent as a musician.

"Well, well sopranos better then Vibeke Stene, well I never? I assume you mean Anna Netrebko, Sarah Brightman, Angela Gheorghiu, Karita Mattila or Emma Shapplin? Yes I know an Soprano when I hear one. However what these ladies don't have in common with Vibeke is that none of them are in metal bands, they are all in fact Divas of the stage. I hate to be the one to break it to you but singing on stage (in the classical sense) is very different from singing on stage as part of a metal band. For one a true soprano needs not a microphone, first give away there! For that reason I can tell you that not one female singer in metal perform completely soprano, merely they employ operatic techniques to their work."

Just for the record, I was not underestimating, if that is what you thought, your knowledge of other sopranos but rather compelling you to contrast the talent of Vibeke against the talent of them. You say that it is different right? I have not said otherwise. But as there is a difference between how is classified the work of Vibeke in Tristania and the work of a soprano in Classical music, so is differently classified the work of a Pop singer. If comparisons should not be made within different classifications, then there is no right to accuse Pop singers of having less talent than a soprano. That is what I was arguing. If there is no reason to undervalue Pop singers, then there is no reason to undervalue the music of a Pop-Metal band for having a vocalist which sings in a Pop style.

I was talking about what is behind the microphone. I would like to see Vibeke trying to take the role of one of these divas.

"Where did I say that being a soprano makes you a better singer?"

Where did I say that you said that being a soprano makes you a better singer? I was not quoting you when I wrote that. I guess you may have gotten a little confused there with whom I was directing myself to.

"As for Vibeke not shining without her band, well she must have done something right, for in the beginning Vibeke was a backing singer, she was part of their choir, but the band being that impressed with her vocals made her an official member. Which I believe was a very wise more as I don't think they would be as successful without her contribution."

With that way of reasoning, I could be able to say the following:

As for Ji-In Cho not shinning without her band, well she must have done something right, for in the beginning Cho was one of the many singers featured in the Krypteria because the band intended to feature different vocalists in their songs, but the band being that impressed with her vocals made her an official member.

If the decision of a band in taking a singer as their official vocalist is enough to demonstrate the talent of her/him, then you will have to agree that Krypteria's singer is qualified. Otherwise you will see that what you wrote does not have that much weight.

"Further Vibeke isn't my favourite female singer, there are a few I think are more talented, but I don't disregard her because I find her "less talented", however I shall disregard someone I think has zero talented. What's the point in saying, this person is talented when they are not?"

That is alright as long as you are aware that it is your personal opinion and that it is not necessarily to come, for example, to the Krypteria's thread to bash the band in every way possible and try to reinstate your opinion over and over again and try to justify it with things that are inconsistent. I am not saying that you have done what I have just said though.

"I wonder if you have been reading my posts as I haven't been arguing about where sopranos are suitable for metal, my posts have concerned this new wave of 'gothic-female' bands that are appearing from no where."

These "Gothic" female bands are coming from the same place that the rest of the bands come. You said the following:

"The vocals are sugar-pop from an okay singer, obviously the focus point of the band, which is a shame as it was pointed out, she is unsuited to the band.
Not so much symphony metal as this new breed of female fronted pop-metal."


You said that the "sugar-pop" vocals of Ji-In Cho were not suited for the band and agreed with what Lyrian said, but failed to argument back, about Pop vocals not being suited for Metal. In what way are Ji-In Cho's vocals unsuited for the band, then? If it is because they are Pop, then it is there, if you wouldn't mind Pop vocals in Metal, then you would not be denouncing the "new breed of female fronted pop-metal". Considering certain vocals suited or not for Metal is subjective and that is why I brought the previous example of someone considering operatic vocals not suited for Metal.

"its a pity you couldn't follow your own advice before getting hostal because people don't share the same opinion as you"

I would like to know where I have gotten hostile in my posts. I have been just a little incisive in my assertions here, that is all. Perhaps, I may have been a little passionate about it, but you cannot expect anything else when you argue that a band only offers an attractive image with the female singer and thus leaving the idea that the people who listen to this band does not have an authentic taste for music.

When you try to undervalue a band's music or a musical genre for being less complex than others and when in the other hand you praise bands which come to be less talented than others, there is an obvious inconsistency in your argument and that is what I have been doing so far. I am not arguing against a personal opinion but against an argument which comes to be an unjustified effort to justify why you don't like a band or a musical genre such as Pop music in this case. You can say that you don't like Pop or Krypteria's music, that you can't stand it, and so forth, but when you say that Metal has more complex compositions than Pop and that there are far more talented bands than Krypteria and that that is a reason for not liking them, this is something that strives for discussion and that is what I have done here, nothing else.
----
Christless
wrathchild

Posts: 13911

Age: 32
From: France

  22.05.2007 at 15:01
@ Darth: I know they may have hurt your feelings or whatever, but please don't react as if they had attacked you... Or save your energy and write an article about that particular topic, we'd really appreciate such a thing.

For now, please talk about Krypteria in this thread, and if you want to go on with the discussion about pop and metal, you may create a separate thread (though given the length of your posts, I think an article would be a lot more appropriate.

Thanks.
----
La belleza no reside en lo que puedas crear, sino en lo que eres capaz de transmitir
Beauty resides not in what you're able to create, but in what you're able to communicate


Txus, Mägo De Oz
Mela Muke
Account deleted
  25.05.2007 at 23:10
hmm well alright then, we've been asked to drop this topic

still, I like to say kudos to Darth for providing a thought provoking answer instead of the usual "you're just a jealous cow" crap I usually have to deal with on other forums.
Oracle
Orcinus

Posts: 1425

Age: 26
From: Australia

  11.07.2007 at 09:23
I dont know about this band yet. im listening to some songs i downloaded just to see what they are like and i think they are a bit poppy, they might grow on me one day but im just not sure about them atm. imo i think the singer's voice is very weak.

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