Written by Clintagräm on 11.12.2008 at 22:26

Written by Guest on 11.12.2008 at 20:41

Public hanging is still in use? Not like I think there's anything wrong with that...I think that rapists and murderers, etc... shouldn't have the benifit or simply being hung or shot...there should actually be some sort of capital punishment where they kill murderers in the exact same way they killed their victim and for rapists, the same thing...or, let the family members of the murdered or raped victims have a go at the bastard until he's dead...

That would just kind of perpetuate the whole disgusting act of murder wouldn't it? I don't know how people haven't grown out of Capital Punishment, even though I can see how people would want it.

How do you mean grown out of it?

Written by Guest on 12.12.2008 at 12:03

How do you mean grown out of it?

We all claim to be apart of a civil society yet a law as barbaric as Capital Punishment is still in use. State execution of a person is just as bad as the criminal's original act of murder, to me. It helps nothing, it solves nothing, and it makes worse the bloodthirsty nature of people looking for "justice." I can totally understand why someone would wish it upon another, unfortunately, but today is seems like people should realize "an eye for and eye" isn't the answer anymore.

Written by Clintagräm on 12.12.2008 at 19:46

Written by Guest on 12.12.2008 at 12:03

How do you mean grown out of it?

We all claim to be apart of a civil society yet a law as barbaric as Capital Punishment is still in use. State execution of a person is just as bad as the criminal's original act of murder, to me. It helps nothing, it solves nothing, and it makes worse the bloodthirsty nature of people looking for "justice." I can totally understand why someone would wish it upon another, unfortunately, but today is seems like people should realize "an eye for and eye" isn't the answer anymore.

haha, yeah, "civilised society" my ass. the way things are going in the USA in about 20-30 years there'll be televised capital punishment game shows or stuff like that

Written by Valentin B on 13.12.2008 at 09:42

Written by Clintagräm on 12.12.2008 at 19:46

Written by Guest on 12.12.2008 at 12:03

How do you mean grown out of it?

We all claim to be apart of a civil society yet a law as barbaric as Capital Punishment is still in use. State execution of a person is just as bad as the criminal's original act of murder, to me. It helps nothing, it solves nothing, and it makes worse the bloodthirsty nature of people looking for "justice." I can totally understand why someone would wish it upon another, unfortunately, but today is seems like people should realize "an eye for and eye" isn't the answer anymore.

haha, yeah, "civilised society" my ass. the way things are going in the USA in about 20-30 years there'll be televised capital punishment game shows or stuff like that

Which would be funny, but wrong.

So anyway... If killing the offender solves nothing then how do we solve the problem? Lock them up? How is it civilised that hard working law abiding people pay to shelter, clothe and feed people who have raped and murdered? That's not civilised, that's disgusting. Arn't the people who commit these crimes supposed to be part of a civil society too? The fact that people still do terrible things shows that all society does is repress our natural insticts. We are barbaric and brutal. We can try to forget it and think that we're above eveyrthing else on earth and mask it with this so-called civil society but we are animals who's lives were once as short and brutal and full of blood and death and struggle to survive as much as any other animal. That's nature and you can't get rid of that. People will always do bad things. So what's the answer?

Written by Guest on 15.12.2008 at 12:05

So anyway... If killing the offender solves nothing then how do we solve the problem? Lock them up? How is it civilised that hard working law abiding people pay to shelter, clothe and feed people who have raped and murdered? That's not civilised, that's disgusting. Arn't the people who commit these crimes supposed to be part of a civil society too? The fact that people still do terrible things shows that all society does is repress our natural insticts. We are barbaric and brutal. We can try to forget it and think that we're above eveyrthing else on earth and mask it with this so-called civil society but we are animals who's lives were once as short and brutal and full of blood and death and struggle to survive as much as any other animal. That's nature and you can't get rid of that. People will always do bad things. So what's the answer?

You bring up a good point, but you forget that most everyone doesn't go out and kill each other and aren't bloodthirsty, barbaric, and/or brutal. It is true that some people do these things, but to label all of humanity the same way as a few people throughout history (in relation to the total population) is a total mistake. To think that every single moment of an animal's life is also filled with "blood and death" is also a mistake. You're also being awfully melodramatic, I seriously almost laughed reading your post but you are right, there are some sick people out there and people will always do bad things.

As for me, do I know what to do? I believe in personal protection, protection by our government and community, and yes (despite what you might agree with) rehabilitation of criminals. The majority aren't murderers and rapists, but they have already given up their freedom and life by taking another's and having to spend their life behind bars. I know it seems incredibly unfair and lop-sided that a murderer is "free to live" while their victim no longer is, but I ask, like you, how does killing them do anything? Does this not just fuel what you called "barbaric" actions of humans? It's like trying to fight fire with fire, it obviously doesn't work, so yes, some other action must be taken. I think it is ultimately up to people and the community, not just the governments.

Written by Clintagräm on 16.12.2008 at 02:23

Written by Guest on 15.12.2008 at 12:05

So anyway... If killing the offender solves nothing then how do we solve the problem? Lock them up? How is it civilised that hard working law abiding people pay to shelter, clothe and feed people who have raped and murdered? That's not civilised, that's disgusting. Arn't the people who commit these crimes supposed to be part of a civil society too? The fact that people still do terrible things shows that all society does is repress our natural insticts. We are barbaric and brutal. We can try to forget it and think that we're above eveyrthing else on earth and mask it with this so-called civil society but we are animals who's lives were once as short and brutal and full of blood and death and struggle to survive as much as any other animal. That's nature and you can't get rid of that. People will always do bad things. So what's the answer?

You bring up a good point, but you forget that most everyone doesn't go out and kill each other and aren't bloodthirsty, barbaric, and/or brutal. It is true that some people do these things, but to label all of humanity the same way as a few people throughout history (in relation to the total population) is a total mistake. To think that every single moment of an animal's life is also filled with "blood and death" is also a mistake. You're also being awfully melodramatic, I seriously almost laughed reading your post but you are right, there are some sick people out there and people will always do bad things.

As for me, do I know what to do? I believe in personal protection, protection by our government and community, and yes (despite what you might agree with) rehabilitation of criminals. The majority aren't murderers and rapists, but they have already given up their freedom and life by taking another's and having to spend their life behind bars. I know it seems incredibly unfair and lop-sided that a murderer is "free to live" while their victim no longer is, but I ask, like you, how does killing them do anything? Does this not just fuel what you called "barbaric" actions of humans? It's like trying to fight fire with fire, it obviously doesn't work, so yes, some other action must be taken. I think it is ultimately up to people and the community, not just the governments.

I agree that rehabilitation should always be the number 1 priority of the justice system. I think it is kind of ridiculous that we have capital punishment as an option for a single count of murder, when there will either be 1. a chance at rehabilitation or 2. you might convict the wrong person. There is enough of a chance at rehabilitation that I think they should be kept alive. I'm fine having my tax money spent on keeping a murderer alive as long as there is a possibility of rehabilitation. Therefore, if you are going to have capital punishment, I think it should be reserved for the only group of murderers that is beyond rehabilitation: serial killers. From all the true crime I have studied, it seems to me that a serial killer is either true evil, or the closest you can get to it.

Of course, if you are making an argument that being beyond rehabilitation qualifies them for the death penalty, then what about child predators? You can't rehabilitate them either, as pedophilia at its most essential is a perverse sexual preference. You can convince them that their feelings are horrible and perverse (as they are), but that doesn't get rid of them. You could even make an argument that what a child molester does is more heinous and damaging in the long term than murder. So do we need to start killing or imprisoning indefinitely all pedophiles? That is something people who support capital punishment need to address.

Written by Hrothdane on 16.12.2008 at 15:27

Written by Clintagräm on 16.12.2008 at 02:23

Written by Guest on 15.12.2008 at 12:05

So anyway... If killing the offender solves nothing then how do we solve the problem? Lock them up? How is it civilised that hard working law abiding people pay to shelter, clothe and feed people who have raped and murdered? That's not civilised, that's disgusting. Arn't the people who commit these crimes supposed to be part of a civil society too? The fact that people still do terrible things shows that all society does is repress our natural insticts. We are barbaric and brutal. We can try to forget it and think that we're above eveyrthing else on earth and mask it with this so-called civil society but we are animals who's lives were once as short and brutal and full of blood and death and struggle to survive as much as any other animal. That's nature and you can't get rid of that. People will always do bad things. So what's the answer?

You bring up a good point, but you forget that most everyone doesn't go out and kill each other and aren't bloodthirsty, barbaric, and/or brutal. It is true that some people do these things, but to label all of humanity the same way as a few people throughout history (in relation to the total population) is a total mistake. To think that every single moment of an animal's life is also filled with "blood and death" is also a mistake. You're also being awfully melodramatic, I seriously almost laughed reading your post but you are right, there are some sick people out there and people will always do bad things.

As for me, do I know what to do? I believe in personal protection, protection by our government and community, and yes (despite what you might agree with) rehabilitation of criminals. The majority aren't murderers and rapists, but they have already given up their freedom and life by taking another's and having to spend their life behind bars. I know it seems incredibly unfair and lop-sided that a murderer is "free to live" while their victim no longer is, but I ask, like you, how does killing them do anything? Does this not just fuel what you called "barbaric" actions of humans? It's like trying to fight fire with fire, it obviously doesn't work, so yes, some other action must be taken. I think it is ultimately up to people and the community, not just the governments.

I agree that rehabilitation should always be the number 1 priority of the justice system. I think it is kind of ridiculous that we have capital punishment as an option for a single count of murder, when there will either be 1. a chance at rehabilitation or 2. you might convict the wrong person. There is enough of a chance at rehabilitation that I think they should be kept alive. I'm fine having my tax money spent on keeping a murderer alive as long as there is a possibility of rehabilitation. Therefore, if you are going to have capital punishment, I think it should be reserved for the only group of murderers that is beyond rehabilitation: serial killers. From all the true crime I have studied, it seems to me that a serial killer is either true evil, or the closest you can get to it.

Of course, if you are making an argument that being beyond rehabilitation qualifies them for the death penalty, then what about child predators? You can't rehabilitate them either, as pedophilia at its most essential is a perverse sexual preference. You can convince them that their feelings are horrible and perverse (as they are), but that doesn't get rid of them. You could even make an argument that what a child molester does is more heinous and damaging in the long term than murder. So do we need to start killing or imprisoning indefinitely all pedophiles? That is something people who support capital punishment need to address.

Plenty to discuss here. It's a very difficult subject. I don't believe that all murderers deserve to die, purely because the law is not really adequate. Many people in this country get done for manslaughter when they should be charged with murder, and it could easily work the other way round. There are also other diffucult points, such as if someone breaks into your home and you injure or kill them you can will be taken to court, which I believe is all wrong. How can you be charged with anything when someone has come into YOUR home uninvited. With the law in this state then I agree the death penalty couldn't be effectively implemented at this time, certainly not in the UK (by effective I mean reserving it for use only in extreme cases where there is no doubt of the person's guilt of a particularly heinous crime).

As for rehabilitation, I'd like to believe in that too, but unfortunately criminals have too many rights. A lot of little shits who commit petty crimes do some time (a few years or far less), come out, live on benefits (tax payers money which they will use to buy booze and whatever else) offend again, get put away... and the cycle continues. The law is way too soft. But there are too many points to cover, I agree that community and society as a whole needs to be part of it, rather than just having the death penalty as punishment.

However I still believe that capital punishment should be brought back, but you's have made me re-think a little bit. This country certainly needs to get other things sorted first.

@Hrothdane: Interesting point about peadophiles. There was a drama on TV a few months ago and the main character was a child molestor. It started with him being released from prison and going to hostel for released criminals, then he got a job (a crap one) and found his own place to live. He worked 60 hours a week just so he was so tired he couldn't possibly re-offend. Some people found out his address and you really felt scared for the guy, even though he had done these bad things, I didn't want poeple to kill him or beat the crap out of him. But he didn't have to be convinced that his feeling were horrible and perverse: he knew that his desires were wrong, that what he had done to children was wrong and he made himself sick. It was strange because he wasn't evil, I wanted the best for him. There were some really creepy moments when he was talking to young girls, and eventually near the end he had made friends with a girl (of course she was very innocent about the whole thing) and they were sitting on this park bench in the evening, no one else was around... and you thought summit bad was going to happen... but it didn't. He was fighting this all the time. In the end the poor bloke hung himself because he couldn't fight it anymore. Throughout the whole programme he didn't re-offend. He'd rather die than hurt another child. I found that very touching and it made me think a lot about the personal struggle these people must go through. But the end point... maybe you're right, maybe they can't get rid of that. In the end he died anyway so what is the solution? Lock them up for life, kill them or release them to live a life of misery and possible hurt more people along the way. It's a very difficult subject.

@C.J.Wyatt: I nearly made meself laugh with that one reading it back! I do get a but melodramatic when I am passionate about something, but I think we all do. I know most people don't go out killing people, but I'm not labelling humanity as barbaric based on the acts of a few murderers/serial killers, I'm basing it on nature. At the risk of making you laugh again, think about the birds in a garden. They have to toil to find food, build a nest from twigs and are at risk of being devoured by the neighbour's cat 24/7. It's a constant struggle to survive that once, long ago, we were part of. Or how about a domesticated dog? Me sister has a dog who never barks, he's soft as shite, but if he gets hold of a live rabbit he will rip it to shreds and eat it's raw guts (I've seen him do it). Yeah that might make you laugh, comparing us to dogs, but that's only because civilisation and society has convinced us that we're above nature, above all of that killing nonsense. We still slaughter animals to feed ourselves it's just that most of us don't see it and don't think about it. It's still killing and it's natural. Oh crap... I've gone and been melodramatic again, sorry, it's just that people don't realise these things and it fucking pisses me off. But that's a whole other subject.

Anyway I still think, in extreme cases, the death penalty is not as inhumane as people make out.

We have grown out of the barbaric way of killing those who murder...we don't get together in a square in a circle and shout with blood rage when a killer dies...he sits in a chair, eventually dies and those who kill him react sternly while his life is taken from him...

While I agree with both of you on your points, and if a murdering-action were to ever befall my friends or family, I might think differently about Capital Punishment, I can't bring myself to think the age-old "an eye for an eye" is a healthy retort to murder. I like to think I've come to this opinion on my own accord as I would find most of my family and friends being "gung-ho" for the death penalty, but I'm sure I have been influenced by outside sources.

I realize letting a murderer live is extremely unfair and that good, hard-working people paying taxes to keep them alive isn't either, and that some people simply can't be rehabilitated, but of all the possible solutions to this problem (those found and perhaps yet to be found) I just can't bring myself into thinking that "I kill you if you kill them" is a sufficient response to murder.

In the end, it's the root of the problem (of all social problems) that need to be confronted and fixed because killing a murderer doesn't prevent another one from being born.

Sometimes there is no root of the problem...a lot of murders are random...many of them can be traced back to nothing...so how do you fix the problem and prevent those murders from happening? Do you just stick everyone who looks at you sideways in a crazy house?

Written by Guest on 19.12.2008 at 17:08

Sometimes there is no root of the problem...a lot of murders are random...many of them can be traced back to nothing...so how do you fix the problem and prevent those murders from happening? Do you just stick everyone who looks at you sideways in a crazy house?

Like I said, it's not up to one single entity or person, but to society. I do believe people are really influenced by society to a point where it molds you into something you or I don't think we could ever be. But we won't ever be in those childhoods or lives or whatever leads to murder, so we really don't know. Unfortunately murder occurs but I think killing a murderer just kind of perpetuates it all and is a gross oxymoron. Luckily a 19-year-old kid like myself isn't up to making decisions alone, but it seems to be up to all of us. Just don't forget that Capital Punishment is still murder and we are operating from the point of "murder is wrong."

People are influenced by their upbringing in my opinion...if they are raised wrong or not at all then they will take it out at society at random...therefore those people murder because of how the world has treated them so far...life doesn't matter to them because life didn't give them much to begin with...I suppose those people could be send to some sort of rehabilitation center but they are also very full and I do beleive are turning people away...Capital Punishment to me is still out of the context of random acts of killing...

Written by Guest on 20.12.2008 at 00:14

...Capital Punishment to me is still out of the context of random acts of killing...

Capital Punishment to me is still in the context of murder.

I think I worded something wrong...random acts of killing is still murder and shouldn't be out of the Capitol Punishment jurisdiction...

Written by Guest on 20.12.2008 at 01:59

I think I worded something wrong...random acts of killing is still murder and shouldn't be out of the Capitol Punishment jurisdiction...

Oh I understand, definitely. I understood it originally as "Capital Punishment isn't random acts of killing so it's okay." Or something along those lines. But yes, it's all a very unfortunate business.

I have to say in favor of capital punishment .OP mentioned many incidents where capital punishment should be used , many similar incidents happened in Serbia. I completly agree with you.
Also in most Democratic nations Abortion is legal , but there is no capital punishment . A living being that never did no harm is killed while human monsters live . Don't get me wrong , I'm in favor of abortion and a woman should have the choice what to do with her body , but it's hippocritical that serial killers live of the back of the taxpayers .
I know my next argument will be "barbaric" but future criminals would have something to fear if capital punishment would be used.

Written by Bulletdodger on 23.12.2008 at 18:03

I know my next argument will be "barbaric" but future criminals would have something to fear if capital punishment would be used.

Capital Punishment has been used for hundreds, even thousands of years without, as far as I can tell, any affect. People still commit crimes. Obviously the legal system of imprisonment and/or capital punishment isn't a successful deterrent to crime.

As for abortion, an amalgamation of cells is not comparable to a human just as a seed is not a tree or a brick a house. But as long as you agree it should be legal, we have no argument beyond that.

Written by Clintagräm on 24.12.2008 at 03:03

Capital Punishment has been used for hundreds, even thousands of years without, as far as I can tell, any affect. People still commit crimes. Obviously the legal system of imprisonment and/or capital punishment isn't a successful deterrent to crime.

You are right here , nothing the legal system did efficiently stopped people from commiting crimes.

I don't believe there's anything the legal system can do to stop any kind of crime. When someone commits a crime, he/she can give many possible justifications, ranging from "I don't know what I have done, I just..." to "Heh, I just wanted to kill everybody...what'ya lookin' at? wanna die??". So, there are many reasons someone may kill other human being (using assassination as an example, but apply it to any other kind of criminal intents), and intimidating people with the fear of beind killed won't prevent someone from losing their mind only once and doing something that they wouldn't do if they had calmed down, for example. This person should be aided, and returned to society, because he/she has just committed a mistake.

I know this is just one example, and the majority of you will just say "Oh, but that's is an exception, there are a lot of people who kill others cold-blooded and expecting those ones to feel ashamed of their acts would be stupid...they can't be reintegrated to society!"
Yes, I agree. There are people you simply know they won't ever change, and there are ones who wouldn't ever repeat this, because they learned it is wrong, it has consequences, and everything else. That's the human nature, people are not equal to each other.

The problem is, you can't take on every case individually. Even though they are different, the main reason we are considered civilized is because we have a legal system (or at least most countries do, but it isn't my intent to discuss the difference between the ways countries treat their criminals...just offering my point of view on what I consider to be right) that treats each individual equally. So, if you offer rehabilitation to one, you should do it to everybody.

Following that line of thought, why don't we just apply CP to everyone who has killed? Well, because I don't think those who would be rehabilitated given the chance deserve to die, just because they made a mistake once. So, since justice should be blind, and you can't really tell which ones could be saved ( lack of a better word ) and which could not, it's better to offer this chance to everyone even if they won't, than condemn all of them.

There's also another point: what if an innocent is condemned to death penalty?

The point to be discussed about CP isn't efficiency - we can see it cost less, doesn't allow reincidences, even though it won't prevent the first commitment of a crime; the main issue is morality. But since every person tends to have a different point of view, we won't ever come to a conclusion. Most people tend to see everything from the view of the victim....they believe someone who has killed does not deserve to live. I am not criticizing those who think like that, it's just that sometimes they forget that, at the other side, there is another human being who, under the eyes of the law, has the same rights as yours to being forgiven, and offered a way to repent for their crimes. If they take this opportunity or not, that is a totally different question...

Now, if those prisoners are not sentenced to death..what do we do with them?
Instead of killing them, or just consuming people's taxes lettng prisoners rot in a place where there is no perspective of life, I'd rather follow the example of some prisons around the world where the prisoners have to do manual labor. This way, they keep themselves occupied, they are taught skills that might be used when they are returned to society, and their work is given some value....which kind of amortizes their cost.
(What about those prisons that are filled up with people? There are places the government can't afford to build all the structure required for maintaining people working ? - Brazil is one of those - Well, I guess there is enough material for years of discussion....oh well...)


I know I am just utopic, innocent and faithful.....but that's what I think....and I just might have raised some more stuff to discuss...

Written by Guest on 25.12.2008 at 02:49

Now, if those prisoners are not sentenced to death..what do we do with them?
Instead of killing them, or just consuming people's taxes lettng prisoners rot in a place where there is no perspective of life, I'd rather follow the example of some prisons around the world where the prisoners have to do manual labor. This way, they keep themselves occupied, they are taught skills that might be used when they are returned to society, and their work is given some value....which kind of amortizes their cost.
(What about those prisons that are filled up with people? There are places the government can't afford to build all the structure required for maintaining people working ? - Brazil is one of those - Well, I guess there is enough material for years of discussion....oh well...)

Yes , manual labor is a very nice idea.
In Serbia prisoners have that oportunity in most prisons.The boiler in my house was made by prisoners.

Also as I understand in the USA in some states if a prisoner commits 3 crimes he gets executed. That is reasonable and lowers the chance of executing someone who made one mistake and learned his lesson.
But of course not every crime commited should count ( it would be silly to get executed because your 3rd crime was jaywalking).