WitTR :

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not essential

this I can understand

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They are pretty much one of the main pillars of what has been going very wrong in the recent bm-scenery

D'fak ... I don't mind people not liking stuff but can you elaborate a little on why they are ... well the quote above
this hipster hate club is becoming as trendy as the hipster BM movement itself

Written by InnerSelf on 13.02.2012 at 01:02

D'fak ... I don't mind people not liking stuff but can you elaborate a little on why they are ... well the quote above
this hipster hate club is becoming as trendy as the hipster BM movement itself

That should be expected. Hipsterism (just a new word for an old phenomenon, really) is defined through negation. Everybody hates them, nobody admits to being one, and yet they're everywhere and most of us more or less fit the ambigious profile if we think about it. It's a way to draw the line between the self and the other. It's a handy term because it can change meaning from context to context. You're into the critically acclaimed new indie band that even made it to the charts? Definite hipster. You disdain such sheep and go for something obscure nobody else likes? My god, what a hipster. You want to push the boundaries of a genre and avoid categorization? What could be more hipster. You're actually really into some established style and follow it with dedication? A classic case of hipster in denial, not belonging by ironically belonging. And so on.

To be fair though, I used the word. Not Solemn. Still think his opinion is pretty stupid, of course. There's nothing at all wrong with modern BM, in fact it seems more interesting than ever. The variety is dizzying. I guess sticking to the 2nd wave classics for so long was why I didn't develop a greater interest in the genre: those bands and albums are mostly garbage, or at least too mediocre on average to stay interesting for very long. Sure, Darkthrone and Emperor had some great stuff, and even Burzum had its few moments, but I'm just not interested in hearing that thing over and over again. I find that whole "melodic BM" trend of the earlier years much more unpleasant than the current atmospheric/post-BM thing. You know, Catamenia, Old Man's Child, Black Swan, etc. Not my thing at all.

I'll take Fen, Deafheaven or Infestus over Naglfar, Impaled Nazarene or Gorgoroth any day.

Written by M C Vice on 12.02.2012 at 07:57

Any suggestions for black metal with female lead vocals, either clean or harsh, as long as the main vocalist is a chick?

Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult

Quote:

Written by InnerSelf on 13.02.2012 at 01:02

They are pretty much one of the main pillars of what has been going very wrong in the recent bm-scenery

D'fak ... I don't mind people not liking stuff but can you elaborate a little on why they are ... well the quote above
this hipster hate club is becoming as trendy as the hipster BM movement itself

Yeah, the same thing happened about 8 years ago with metalcore. It became really popular to hate on the genre and a bunch of decent bands got overlooked because of it. I have no problem with what some call "hipster black metal" (band's like Krallice, Wolves In The Throne Room, etc.) A lot of it is really good music and just because it's not from Scandinavia and kvlt doesn't mean anything to me.

Quote:

Written by [user id=20536] on 13.02.2012 at 06:22

Written by InnerSelf on 13.02.2012 at 01:02

They are pretty much one of the main pillars of what has been going very wrong in the recent bm-scenery

D'fak ... I don't mind people not liking stuff but can you elaborate a little on why they are ... well the quote above
this hipster hate club is becoming as trendy as the hipster BM movement itself

Yeah, the same thing happened about 8 years ago with metalcore. It became really popular to hate on the genre and a bunch of decent bands got overlooked because of it. I have no problem with what some call "hipster black metal" (band's like Krallice, Wolves In The Throne Room, etc.) A lot of it is really good music and just because it's not from Scandinavia and kvlt doesn't mean anything to me.

I agree, there's no real reason to argue about it right? I mean it's like with the telly. If you don't like the show then switch channel!

Written by IronAngel on 13.02.2012 at 01:12

Written by InnerSelf on 13.02.2012 at 01:02

D'fak ... I don't mind people not liking stuff but can you elaborate a little on why they are ... well the quote above
this hipster hate club is becoming as trendy as the hipster BM movement itself

That should be expected. Hipsterism (just a new word for an old phenomenon, really) is defined through negation. Everybody hates them, nobody admits to being one, and yet they're everywhere and most of us more or less fit the ambigious profile if we think about it. It's a way to draw the line between the self and the other. It's a handy term because it can change meaning from context to context. You're into the critically acclaimed new indie band that even made it to the charts? Definite hipster. You disdain such sheep and go for something obscure nobody else likes? My god, what a hipster. You want to push the boundaries of a genre and avoid categorization? What could be more hipster. You're actually really into some established style and follow it with dedication? A classic case of hipster in denial, not belonging by ironically belonging. And so on.

To be fair though, I used the word. Not Solemn. Still think his opinion is pretty stupid, of course. There's nothing at all wrong with modern BM, in fact it seems more interesting than ever. The variety is dizzying. I guess sticking to the 2nd wave classics for so long was why I didn't develop a greater interest in the genre: those bands and albums are mostly garbage, or at least too mediocre on average to stay interesting for very long. Sure, Darkthrone and Emperor had some great stuff, and even Burzum had its few moments, but I'm just not interested in hearing that thing over and over again. I find that whole "melodic BM" trend of the earlier years much more unpleasant than the current atmospheric/post-BM thing. You know, Catamenia, Old Man's Child, Black Swan, etc. Not my thing at all.

I'll take Fen, Deafheaven or Infestus over Naglfar, Impaled Nazarene or Gorgoroth any day.

Bob Dylan was called the first hipster somewhere and I think they meant it in a semi-positive way.

Written by The Turbanator on 12.02.2012 at 19:43

Thorr's Hammer (MA says they are Doom/Death but check them out)

They're as doom/death as doom/death gets, totally nothing black about them whatsoever.

Written by The Turbanator on 12.02.2012 at 19:43

Written by M C Vice on 12.02.2012 at 07:57

Any suggestions for black metal with female lead vocals, either clean or harsh, as long as the main vocalist is a chick?

Darkestrah (A very must listen band)
Be Persecuted ( Depressive BM from China , excellent band)
Amesoeurs (shoegaze BM)
İlkim Oulanem (one man (actually woman) band from Turkey)
Gallhammer (not sure if Black Metal, but female vocalist)
Bestial Holocaust (same as above)
Ludicra (I personally don't like them, but you might!)
Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult (female vocalist + guitarist)
Melencolia Estatica (one woman project)
Sigh (Japanese BM, very good)
Thorr's Hammer (MA says they are Doom/Death but check them out)

Thanks. Already got Gallhammer, Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult, Sigh and Thorr's Hammer. I'll have a look at some of the others.

Written by Zombie94 on 13.02.2012 at 01:27

Written by M C Vice on 12.02.2012 at 07:57

Any suggestions for black metal with female lead vocals, either clean or harsh, as long as the main vocalist is a chick?

Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult

Got 'em. Thanks, though.

Written by IronAngel on 13.02.2012 at 01:12

To be fair though, I used the word. Not Solemn.

What he meant was obvious

Quote:
There's nothing at all wrong with modern BM, in fact it seems more interesting than ever. The variety is dizzying. I guess sticking to the 2nd wave classics for so long was why I didn't develop a greater interest in the genre: those bands and albums are mostly garbage, or at least too mediocre on average to stay interesting for very long. Sure, Darkthrone and Emperor had some great stuff, and even Burzum had its few moments, but I'm just not interested in hearing that thing over and over again. I find that whole "melodic BM" trend of the earlier years much more unpleasant than the current atmospheric/post-BM thing. You know, Catamenia, Old Man's Child, Black Swan, etc. Not my thing at all.

I'll take Fen, Deafheaven or Infestus over Naglfar, Impaled Nazarene or Gorgoroth any day.

Yeah, modern BM is in fact what kept the genre alive and proved that it's not just a bunch of dudes hating on Jesus. Stuff like A Forest of Stars, Naglefar (with an E), WitTR, .... etc showed that BM is by no means a limited genre and is probably the genre where experimentation is easier and more welcomed.
2nd wave stuff are essential but not necessarily all great. One band I have huge respect for is Mayhem ... they were there among the bands that pioneered the whole thing but they weren't afraid to push the boundaries of their sound and experiment with it until they finally gave us the masterpiece that is Ordo ab Chao (an album you should also check).

Post BM, Atmospheric BM and the rest of the bunch are the natural evolution of the genre whether the kvlt dudes accept it or not

Yeah, I agree with most of you on the whole Atmospheric BM/Post-BM being good no matter what the "purists" say. I think where most people get tripped up is that Black Metal was a term used to describe a perfectly crystallized moment in musical history and the art that it spawned. Much like the term Grunge. Bands like Nirvana, STP and Pearl Jam helped to spawn a new sort of modern rock that, love it or hate it, permeates the radio waves to this day in America.

But you don't see people running around calling any band with elements of those bands in their music Post Grunge/Ambient Grunge/Forest Grunge/Grunged Metal/etc. ad nauseum. Black Metal just sort of hung around well after it's cultural significance but, unlike Grunge, never hit the mainstream enough to grow naturally into anything else. It just sort of stayed the way it was and bands in that movement seemed okay with that as did their fans. It took artists outside of that original culture to progress the genre.

So I guess if you want to be a real prick about it you could say that only those first second-wave bands were truly BM just like only Nirvana, Pearl Jam, et al were truly Grunge. The whole Black Metal tag should probably just be fucking dropped entirely since the stylings of the genre have found their way into the big melting pot of Metal in general and are fair game for any and all to use as they see fit. But I see it sticking around for quite awhile....oh well....makes it easier when searching certain genres on bandcamp...

Written by IronAngel on 13.02.2012 at 01:12
I'll take Fen, Deafheaven or Infestus over Naglfar, Impaled Nazarene or Gorgoroth any day.

This last part reminds me: Dude, check out Nagelfar (Do not confuse with Naglfar)
Nagelfar - Srontgorrth Underrated German band that has some synthand stuff under the music, really good and unique stuff.

I also would do the same thing as Innerself and say that Ordo ad Chao is a glorious album and I'm yet to listen to any BM that sounds like that.

Written by X-Ray Rod on 13.02.2012 at 15:46

Written by IronAngel on 13.02.2012 at 01:12
I'll take Fen, Deafheaven or Infestus over Naglfar, Impaled Nazarene or Gorgoroth any day.

This last part reminds me: Dude, check out Nagelfar (Do not confuse with Naglfar)
Nagelfar - Srontgorrth Underrated German band that has some synthand stuff under the music, really good and unique stuff.

I also would do the same thing as Innerself and say that Ordo ad Chao is a glorious album and I'm yet to listen to any BM that sounds like that.

Naglfar (the Swedish one without the e) is terribly boring run of the mill a dime a dozen sandard black. I never understand people going apeshit over that stuff. They make even Gorgoroth look brilliant.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 13.02.2012 at 15:50
Naglfar (the Swedish one without the e) is terribly boring run of the mill a dime a dozen sandard black. I never understand people going apeshit over that stuff. They make even Gorgoroth look brilliant.

Oh I know... I remember I heard them years ago... and that was it
It's astonishing how much quality you get just by putting an "e" on the band's name!

Too difficult to get into. The first wave is good, but the second is too boring. Mayhem, Emperor, Gorgoroth... All these bands sounds the same all the way, with the chaotic music and extremely fast drum pace. I am new with the genre, but the only albums that I really got into was "Under The Sign Of The Black Mark" and "Bathory", both from Bathory, and "Filosofem", by Burzum.

Written by [user id=114505] on 13.02.2012 at 19:34

Too difficult to get into. The first wave is good, but the second is too boring. Mayhem, Emperor, Gorgoroth... All these bands sounds the same all the way, with the chaotic music and extremely fast drum pace. I am new with the genre, but the only albums that I really got into was "Under The Sign Of The Black Mark" and "Bathory", both from Bathory, and "Filosofem", by Burzum.

Try 'Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk' by Emperor. They're much more symphonic and progressive after their first album.

Yeah, I should have known better than the expect any other replies than this kind of neo-liberal, superficial drible..

1. Wolves In The Throne Room (like some other, mainly US-based, 'black' metal) tend to advocate they are pioneers and renovaters, whilest they are nothing of the kind. Claiming to exclusive and exceptional atmospheres of music, while it is nothing new under the sun. Furthermore even stuffing their gig-intermezzo's, interviews and most other press releases full of redundant eco-friendly (hippie-esque) propagandist rants and self-satisfied claims to indie-black metal fame only adds tons more smugness to their name.

2.@ InnerSelf: Did you just seriously call "Nagelfar" modern-bm? Seeing as they released their first demo in 1995, this would be a rather questionable statement.. They had tried out some minor 'heraldic' sidestepts over the years, sure, but nothing insanely 'out-there' or post-bm-ish.

3.@ Cuca Beludo: How someone can compare Gorgoroth to Emperor and even think they are similar, is beyond me.. This tends to prove that your ability to differentiate is utterly worthless.

4. I never said I was against certain evolution and/or inovation here and there, on the contrary..
4a. But why try and 'fix' things, when they aren't broken? Meaning: Why should older bands HAVE TO(?) inovate their formula and sound when it's already working very well for them? Don't get me wrong either; I personally think the stereotypical old kvltbands like Gorgoroth ad Burzum have always been rubbish..
4b. Or why the need for redundant 'new' movements and claims to fame, when the source is complete nonsense.People should stick to the point, and quit the overzealous self-promotion. E.i. "Vanity killed the cat >>> Vanity killed black metal"

Written by [user id=127414] on 13.02.2012 at 22:34

Yeah, I should have known better than the expect any other replies than this kind of neo-liberal, superficial drible..

1. Wolves In The Throne Room (like some other, mainly US-based, 'black' metal) tend to advocate they are pioneers and renovaters, whilest they are nothing of the kind. Claiming to exclusive and exceptional atmospheres of music, while it is nothing new under the sun. Furthermore even stuffing their gig-intermezzo's, interviews and most other press releases full of redundant eco-friendly (hippie-esque) propagandist rants and self-satisfied claims to indie-black metal fame only adds tons more smugness to their name.

All the things you mentioned about the band members are irrelevant, only thing that matters is the music. Their opinions and beliefs are totally unimportant to me as a music fan, just see the guys from Mayhem ... complete douchbags, that doesn't affect the fact that they are brilliant musicians

Quote:
2.@ InnerSelf: Did you just seriously call "Nagelfar" modern-bm? Seeing as they released their first demo in 1995, this would be a rather questionable statement.. They had tried out some minor 'heraldic' sidestepts over the years, sure, but nothing insanely 'out-there' or post-bm-ish.

Does it really have to be in the 2000s to be modern, Nagelfar where ages ahead their pears and I still can't beleive that the Srontgorrth compilation was released in the 90s and whether you consider it innovative and 'out-there' or not is completely subjective and thus makes your statement questionable .

Written by [user id=127414] on 13.02.2012 at 22:34
But why try and 'fix' things, when they aren't broken?

Hmmyeah, this is where I can't agree with you. I like traditional BM just as much as I like the non-traditional BM.... The part I'm disagreeing with you is that you say they try to "fix" things.... Which is far from the true. Most bands just want to do their own thing. Do you really blame them just for doing whatever they want?

Also, the fact that your comment about WITTR just focus on interviews, their ideologies, etc just makes me wonder if you would even have an opinion about them if they were unknown, didn't have any "hippie-ideology" and just sang traditional satanic lyrics.

Written by [user id=127414] on 13.02.2012 at 22:34

Yeah, I should have known better than the expect any other replies than this kind of neo-liberal, superficial drible..

1. Wolves In The Throne Room (like some other, mainly US-based, 'black' metal) tend to advocate they are pioneers and renovaters, whilest they are nothing of the kind. Claiming to exclusive and exceptional atmospheres of music, while it is nothing new under the sun. Furthermore even stuffing their gig-intermezzo's, interviews and most other press releases full of redundant eco-friendly (hippie-esque) propagandist rants and self-satisfied claims to indie-black metal fame only adds tons more smugness to their name.

2.@ InnerSelf: Did you just seriously call "Nagelfar" modern-bm? Seeing as they released their first demo in 1995, this would be a rather questionable statement.. They had tried out some minor 'heraldic' sidestepts over the years, sure, but nothing insanely 'out-there' or post-bm-ish.

3.@ Cuca Beludo: How someone can compare Gorgoroth to Emperor and even think they are similar, is beyond me.. This tends to prove that your ability to differentiate is utterly worthless.

4. I never said I was against certain evolution and/or inovation here and there, on the contrary..
4a. But why try and 'fix' things, when they aren't broken? Meaning: Why should older bands HAVE TO(?) inovate their formula and sound when it's already working very well for them? Don't get me wrong either; I personally think the stereotypical old kvltbands like Gorgoroth ad Burzum have always been rubbish..
4b. Or why the need for redundant 'new' movements and claims to fame, when the source is complete nonsense.People should stick to the point, and quit the overzealous self-promotion. E.i. "Vanity killed the cat >>> Vanity killed black metal"

Dude you sound like a stuck up elitist. There are enough of those already in the black metal scene!

I don't know if it's elitism. I like to be an elitist, and it's usually associated with sophistication. Sloppy terminology while frothing at the mouth isn't what I call elitistic. (What the hell does liberalism have to do with music, and what is neo-liberal in this context, anyway?)

Point 1 is irrelevant and banal. A true elitist knows better than to resort to ad hominems.

Point 2 is not of much interest to me, I suppose. You may be right, never heard them.

Point 3 is crude, plebeian rhetoric. "Your ability to defferentiate is utterly worthless" is not an argument at all.

Point 4 is misguided. I am not aware of any methods, legal or otherwise, undertaken to force old black metal bands to change their thing. Your claim to the contrary is dubious. Furthermore, new movements are such because music comes and goes and people have the natural tendency to categorize phenomena to better grasp the world. I'm completely fine with overzealous self-promotion if such happens, though I'm not aware of it. I just don't care enough to even know who plays in my favorite bands, let alone what they say in interviews. But even if I did, I'd be quite fine with their overblown egotism. That's to be expected from any artist or academic.

Written by IronAngel on 13.02.2012 at 23:28

I don't know if it's elitism. I like to be an elitist, and it's usually associated with sophistication. Sloppy terminology while frothing at the mouth isn't what I call elitistic. (What the hell does liberalism have to do with music, and what is neo-liberal in this context, anyway?)

It's usually associated with arrogant douchebags

Who cares? As long as the music is good, I wouldn't give a fuck if they're Atmospheric Black Metal or Speed Purple Alloy.

Written by The Turbanator on 14.02.2012 at 01:56

Who cares? As long as the music is good, I wouldn't give a fuck if they're Atmospheric Black Metal or Speed Purple Alloy.

Sort of what I was trying to get at. The "sound" of trad black metal or "kvlt" black metal as some call it formed amongst a tight knit group of individuals. I don't think it was supposed to be it's own genre. Ever. It became that when others took that style and did their own thing with it. Thus creating five hundred sub-genres seems useless as is pining for some sort of "kvlt" aesthetic or "tr00" black metal. If you like it then that must mean it's good in your own perspective and therefore why does it require justification?

Right, I almost forgot it's terribly easy to 'defend' or justify exceedingly superficial tastes..

Well sense they are not your tastes then why does it really matter?

Laughing at the so-called defending of superficial tastes, when in fact I find defending old black metal and dissing new black metal way more superficial, because it is the trendy thing to do (diss new black metal)

As for "Wolves In The Throne Room (like some other, mainly US-based, 'black' metal) tend to advocate they are pioneers and renovaters," they never have done that and when you talk to them they don't see themselves as pioneers and innovators at all. But yeah it's easy to diss a band when you don't know the people personally. As for their hippie stuff... who fucking cares... why not lambast euronymous while you're at it for being a communist and the Darkthrone guys as well.

Written by [user id=127414] on 13.02.2012 at 22:34

E.i. "Vanity killed the cat >>> Vanity killed black metal"

Nope, people like you killed black metal, simple as that.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.02.2012 at 07:46

Written by [user id=127414] on 13.02.2012 at 22:34

E.i. "Vanity killed the cat >>> Vanity killed black metal"

Nope, people like you killed black metal, simple as that.

Riiiight.. proves how much you actually 'know', king metalstorm.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.02.2012 at 07:44

Laughing at the so-called defending of superficial tastes, when in fact I find defending old black metal and dissing new black metal way more superficial, because it is the trendy thing to do (diss new black metal)

As for "Wolves In The Throne Room (like some other, mainly US-based, 'black' metal) tend to advocate they are pioneers and renovaters," they never have done that and when you talk to them they don't see themselves as pioneers and innovators at all. But yeah it's easy to diss a band when you don't know the people personally. As for their hippie stuff... who fucking cares... why not lambast euronymous while you're at it for being a communist and the Darkthrone guys as well.

1. For the third time, I'm not supporting any which old/new-school. I'm just critical on all ends, weighing-out as much of the complete spectrum as possible, before acquiring absolution on a certain band, project or individual. So any which form of black metal (be it raw, melodic, avantgarde or whatever) that manages to craft a solid well-rounded whole, is worth checking out in my book.

2. Ironic how you reinforce your statement with a "dont judge people if you don't know them"-arguement (while in actuallity I do have sufficient knowledge and sources to make my claim), when at the same time you yourself are so very eager to point the finger to someone you have zero information or knowlegde of (i.e. me).

~

Considering the endless redundant reply upon reply.. I'll wisely keep any further 'opinion' to myself. This will have been my last post in this topic or any relating one. Have fun flaming and trolling to this message, as you do, but I've got better things to do..

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 14.02.2012 at 07:44

Laughing at the so-called defending of superficial tastes, when in fact I find defending old black metal and dissing new black metal way more superficial, because it is the trendy thing to do (diss new black metal)

As for "Wolves In The Throne Room (like some other, mainly US-based, 'black' metal) tend to advocate they are pioneers and renovaters," they never have done that and when you talk to them they don't see themselves as pioneers and innovators at all. But yeah it's easy to diss a band when you don't know the people personally. As for their hippie stuff... who fucking cares... why not lambast euronymous while you're at it for being a communist and the Darkthrone guys as well.

2nd paragraph = NAIL.TO.THE.HEAD.