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The original post

Posted by Black Winter on 11.03.2008 at 21:55
Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points .



Page 52 of 52

Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 615
From: Israel

  23.04.2015 at 20:13
EU efforts to avoid immigration externally have failed (intelligence services targeting 'human trafficking' in Northern Africa, Moroccan Border police and North African fences funded by the EU) and on Tuesday will end and start the internal phase ending it's long hypocritical stances (and I'm not talking about the Italian gangs with dogs hunting them down). The vast majority will be kicked out - out of the 150,000 only 5000 from last year will be allowed to stay.
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Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40482

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  23.04.2015 at 20:24
Written by Candlemass on 23.04.2015 at 20:13

EU efforts to avoid immigration externally have failed (intelligence services targeting 'human trafficking' in Northern Africa, Moroccan Border police and North African fences funded by the EU) and on Tuesday will end and start the internal phase ending it's long hypocritical stances (and I'm not talking about the Italian gangs with dogs hunting them down). The vast majority will be kicked out - out of the 150,000 only 5000 from last year will be allowed to stay.


some madia says NATO will send special troops and do air strike to N Africa places where human traffickers hide out and HQ

consequencs when we get rid of Kaddafi, Mubarak ..
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Rasputin

Posts: 317
From: USA
  24.04.2015 at 00:27
Written by Bad English on 23.04.2015 at 20:24

Written by Candlemass on 23.04.2015 at 20:13

EU efforts to avoid immigration externally have failed (intelligence services targeting 'human trafficking' in Northern Africa, Moroccan Border police and North African fences funded by the EU) and on Tuesday will end and start the internal phase ending it's long hypocritical stances (and I'm not talking about the Italian gangs with dogs hunting them down). The vast majority will be kicked out - out of the 150,000 only 5000 from last year will be allowed to stay.


some madia says NATO will send special troops and do air strike to N Africa places where human traffickers hide out and HQ

consequencs when we get rid of Kaddafi, Mubarak ..

NATO/UN are directly linked to slavery, organ trafficking, drug and weapon smuggling. During the conflict in Yugoslavia, they had their own whorehouses set up (UN Military Leaders), in Kosovo right now still there are people being sold to Netherlands brothels or sent across the world to belong to a harem somewhere. In essence, NATO is bullshit.

EU being so liberal will in the end suffer, because the liberals live in some other reality that the rest of the logical individuals cannot comprehend. It is all peace, love and tolerance, even when someone is slitting your throat. At this point the only thing that more people coming from the Middle East will do is speed up the insurgency and taking over the Western countries.

I am still waiting for an answer why do we constantly hear all around the world, in the EU especially, about Muslims working hard to dismantle Christianity, push for their own agenda such as Sharia Law and other things, and these were supposed to be "moderate" Muslims.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 615
From: Israel

  24.04.2015 at 01:11
Written by Bad English on 23.04.2015 at 20:24

some madia says NATO will send special troops and do air strike to N Africa places where human traffickers hide out and HQ

consequencs when we get rid of Kaddafi, Mubarak ..


Technically the EU has its own military force already but I doubt anything like that would happen. Meanwhile The Guardian is going ballistic over it which isn't surprising. Spoken to some self-described 'European left' friends that find the EU decision 'revealing' because 'it's just not possible' (mass immigration).
I'm sure they'll be back to the usual bickering about Americans/French/Australians as soon as possible as a reminder to themselves about how noble they (still) are.
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  24.04.2015 at 02:02
Written by Angel N. on 23.04.2015 at 13:29

No people aren't like that all over the world, take a trip to Middle East and you'll see how kindly people will treat you as a foreigner.


Provided I leave my culture at the door and don't show too much flesh, don't show affection to my wife in public, don't drink beer, my wife covers up etc etc etc.


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Basically you're not rich, healthy and educated, that's exactly what I meant to say. At first glance it seems like that but with deeper insight to it no !


No we are rich, healthy and educated compared to the rest of the world. Yes there is poverty and sick people and dumbarses. But we are still infinitely better off than most of the rest of the world who live in their own squalor.

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Oh dear you know no history seriously, other nations didn't fail, they were exploited by westerners, in different ways.


They failed. The North Asians are a great example that you can beat the West at it's own game. For example in 1960 South Korea was poorer than most subSaharan African countries. It is now the 13th most powerful economy on the planet with excellent standards of living. Same applies to China, Taiwan, Japan and Singapore. The Japanese actually got to Western standards by 1900! And all of them were dictatorships too during key times of economic progress.

Some of the Latin Americans are getting here just now (Brazil and Chile), despite a head start over North Asians. Indeed Argentina in 1900 had the best standard of living for average people in the world along with Australia and then flushed it down the toilet over the course of a century and is still a basketcase.

The others failed in that:

1. They never set aside internal differences and became able to work together (this is possible - look at Belgium or United Kingdom)
2. They failed to modernise their cultural mindsets - the rich Arabs are a great example of that. The focus in on clan and family and not the national good.
3. They failed to establish functional civil societies
4. They failed to establish functional political and economic infrastructure.

And most importantly:

5. All of the above means they failed to achieve any economic stability or create models to ensure continued improvement in living standards.


We can blame the West for all the world's ills but it's clear that most of these countries and societies should be responsible for their own condition. A poor man is often poor cause he tacitly chooses to do so - he doesn't strive for success and doesn't do the hard things that are necessary to succeed.


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I can't see what gender equality has to do with consumerism and egotism or individualism. As far I know even exaggerated individualism is bad for prosperity.


Yet ironically the countries that championed exaggerated individualism (USA, UK, Netherlands, Australia) were some of the most successful on the planet. Countries like Sweden succeeded with a more collectivist approach but individual rights still rulled supreme.

The North Asians were a different model altogether - extremely collectivist but they channeled that collectivism into modern economic and industrial development. They all now have reasonable standards of living (China still working on them) and most are democracies.

Then just south is the Philippines, which was wealthy by Asian standards in 1950 and is now still dirt poor despite massive American assistance. And democracy has done them no favours either. Their culture prevents their success.


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And I think you didn't get self-conscious meaning.


No. Feel free to elaborate.


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And do no forget that humanity has social instincts anyway. To make them completely alienated is what just serves politics.


Yup totally agree. Humans are still animals and instinctual when it comes to it.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  24.04.2015 at 02:22
Written by IronAngel on 23.04.2015 at 16:36

You just described the mentality of every rational nation and people anywhere, ever. That's how the world works. I could name a dozen non-European examples, but there's no point pointing fingers.

Nobody here is "blaming" other nations for not having an advantage, and certainly not because they're "less than white." It is simply an empirical observation: the majority of the world's surface is a shit place to live in, and the majority of the good places are in the West (at least in our Western perspective), so it is only rational to want to maintain that quality of life and not let misplaced white guilt cause us to squander the culture we are comfortable with.


Advantage is something created by societies. Look at Britain and Japan - relatively isolated islands without much in the way of natural resources. Only actual advantage is access to seas which many countries have. They created their own advantage through hard work. Or Netherlands - a glorified swamp that was up to 1648 a Spanish province!


Quote:

I do see deadone and Candlemass's points, though I don't share all their conclusions or believe deadone's predictions about the radical islamification of the West. He presents it as an obvious fact, but great prophesies about the fate of the world have usually been wrong.


Of course. I'm not saying it's 100%. I'm saying it's highly likely given demographic and social changes.


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Globalization and ethnic and religious diversity are facts we have to live with


They're something Western leaders want us to live with because of political and economic issues. Lots of societies prefer hegemony or cultural dominance - e.g. Japan or China (a few minorities but the Han Chinese dominate). The rich Arabs do it by segregating non-Arabs be it poor workers from India living in glorified shipping containers or professional Westerners living in compounds.





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Because from my subjective, Eurocentric perspective, the cultural continuity made of Homer, Plato, Ovid, Jesus (and I'm still not really Christian), Augustine, Jerome, Dante and Chaucer, Tallis, Byrd, Bach and black metal, Nietzsche and Thomas Mann, Germaine Greer and Margaret Atwood, Universities and cinema, hardcore porn and hamburgers, is the culture I love and want to preserve.


This is my point too. And migrants need to accept these things. Hell they have to embrace them because ultimately that is why the West offers so much opportunity. This is coming from a migrant who embraced the beautiful and successful Australian culture and way of life.

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I am not so petty as to resist change, too: a minaret next door wouldn't bother me ethically or aesthetically, as long as its visitors went through the same education as me and came to accept most of the general consensus of Western/Finnish Christian-influenced liberal secularism (there is obviously no monoculture in Finland, so complete acceptance isn't required). I'm just not sure what practical steps should be taken to ensure that, and not much that's useful has been suggested here.


The problem is not necessarily the minaret/mosque that's the problem - it's the authoritarian and intolerant way of life being preached inside it that is often against Western values. This is a real threat - Islamic terrorism is obviously a great example of it.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 615
From: Israel

  24.04.2015 at 03:31
Written by IronAngel on 23.04.2015 at 16:36

You just described the mentality of every rational nation and people anywhere, ever. That's how the world works. I could name a dozen non-European examples, but there's no point pointing fingers.

Because from my subjective, Eurocentric perspective, the cultural continuity made of Homer, Plato, Ovid, Jesus (and I'm still not really Christian), Augustine, Jerome, Dante and Chaucer, Tallis, Byrd, Bach and black metal, Nietzsche and Thomas Mann, Germaine Greer and Margaret Atwood, Universities and cinema, hardcore porn and hamburgers, is the culture I love and want to preserve. I am not so petty as to resist change, too: a minaret next door wouldn't bother me ethically or aesthetically, as long as its visitors went through the same education as me and came to accept most of the general consensus of Western/Finnish Christian-influenced liberal secularism (there is obviously no monoculture in Finland, so complete acceptance isn't required). I'm just not sure what practical steps should be taken to ensure that, and not much that's useful has been suggested here.


As far as mainstream history is concerned Western culture starts in ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq), not Homer. I'm not sure how the Germanic, Spanish, Francs or Jews can be simply labeled as having the "same Western perspective" nor the religious differences and ideological within it (fascist or communist). Indeed many "outside" cultures (Arabic, Indian) have contributed to what we call "Western culture" today to a degree that your use of 'Eurocentric' is indeed Eurocentric but in an ironic way. As far as I'm concerned having a different 'perspective' is about as trivial as it gets and does not start nor stop at "West", "East" or what have you muddled categories.
I would have said 'humancentric' but even that is incorrect. I communicate just fine with my pet dog to the degree that I question what's the entire point of this approach*.

A minaret next door wouldn't bother you ethically or aesthetically because you would have noticed the 5min chant that's most annoying thing coming out of it five times a day .

Written by IronAngel on 23.04.2015 at 16:36
as long as its visitors went through the same education as me and came to accept most of the general consensus of Western/Finnish Christian-influenced liberal secularism


It sounds as if you're accepting or at least starting to, a more assimilative views of the issue.

Demography matters by the way, and that will be probably the next issue Europeans will deal with after stopping mass immigration in the years to come.

*Again, it's mind blowing how much the European left and right have in common when it comes to structure of thought.
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Twelve Virtues of Rationality
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  24.04.2015 at 03:50
Written by Candlemass on 24.04.2015 at 03:31


As far as mainstream history is concerned Western culture starts in ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq), not Homer. I'm not sure how the Germanic, Spanish, Francs or Jews can be simply labeled as having the "same Western perspective" nor the religious differences and ideological within it (fascist or communist). Indeed many "outside" cultures (Arabic, Indian) have contributed to what we call "Western culture" today to a degree that your use of 'Eurocentric' is indeed Eurocentric but in an ironic way. As far as I'm concerned having a different 'perspective' is about as trivial as it gets and does not start nor stop at "West", "East" or what have you muddled categories.
I would have said 'humancentric' but even that is incorrect. I communicate just fine with my pet dog to the degree that I question what's the entire point of this approach*.



Whilst it's true that non-Western influences had massive impact on Western civilisation, there was a growing divergence between the West and Middle East over many hundreds if not thousands of years ago.

And the Western philosophical divergence had massive actual ramifications on Western society (as opposed to just being taught behind close doors of intellectuals) - individualism, secularism, emphasis on technological innovation and eventually concepts of universal human rights which impact on every day life.

This has not happened around many parts of the world - indeed whilst the rhetoric might have softened, the situation for actual common people is actually still very dominated by the old ideas (e.g. India with Caste society).


Quote:

Demography matters by the way, and that will be probably the next issue Europeans will deal with after stopping mass immigration in the years to come.



Totally agree demography is important even though elements of the Left refuse to believe this and put down all humans as essentially culturally the same.


I don't think the Europeans will stop mass migration - there's no political willpower to stop it. Countries now even continue to accept mass levels of migration during economic downturns, which just increases poverty and social disfunction (look at recent conflict between Zulus and migrants in South Africa).


Quote:
*Again, it's mind blowing how much the European left and right have in common when it comes to structure of thought.


I agree. They're two sides of the same coin. And at the extreme levels, the actual methods and outcomes are virtually the same too.
IronAngel

Posts: 4485

Age: 26
From: Finland

  24.04.2015 at 09:54
Written by Candlemass on 24.04.2015 at 03:31

As far as mainstream history is concerned Western culture starts in ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq), not Homer. I'm not sure how the Germanic, Spanish, Francs or Jews can be simply labeled as having the "same Western perspective" nor the religious differences and ideological within it (fascist or communist). Indeed many "outside" cultures (Arabic, Indian) have contributed to what we call "Western culture" today to a degree that your use of 'Eurocentric' is indeed Eurocentric but in an ironic way. As far as I'm concerned having a different 'perspective' is about as trivial as it gets and does not start nor stop at "West", "East" or what have you muddled categories.
I would have said 'humancentric' but even that is incorrect. I communicate just fine with my pet dog to the degree that I question what's the entire point of this approach*.


I know, I was just picking random examples on my desk/in recent memory. The point isn't so much the historical authenticity or uniqueness of the "culture" (which is anything but monolithic) but rather the current, amorphous general consensus. I'm just trying to boil it down to the basics of what I consider "civilized" in my society and what ought to be the core of education. Dissent and diversity is welcome (metal is, or was, a kind of reaction) but it needs to be based on a shared knowledge, and it's the job of the education system and the state (through museums, libraries etc.) to uphold it. A person who limits themselves to the classics of their "pure" culture and doesn't want to experience what's out there is pretty boorish, but we all start from somewhere. If the lowest common denominator in some Islamic country is Mohammed, I'd rather it be Einstein and Aristotle in mine.

The problem with the political discussion on multiculturalism and immigration in Finland, at least, is its very polarized, stereotyped and ideological nature. We basically have one anti-EU, anti-gay, anti-art conservative populist party (one of their MEPs is an openly racist alcoholic with only 8 years of primary education and apparent connections to a biker gang) and they're the only ones whose programme is critical of immigration. Understandably but unfortunately, the sensible, liberal, pro-education and science, leftish and bourgeoisie parties and their voters take a very opposed stance to this, mostly for reasons of trend and ideology. There is the uncritical mantra of "the economy needs immigration" and "multiculturalism is an asset" which refuses to discuss issues separately and critically, but the vocal other side is equally uncritical in their plebeian, racist and petty generalizations. Criticism of immigration has a poor image among a large segment in Finland (and I imagine most of Europe) because it is so closely associated with boorish voters and politicians who are wrong about most things.

I don't know if my stance is changing closer towards yours. Maybe. Mostly it's that we just had a parliamentary election and I'm sick of the ideological caricatures and reiterated uncritical arguments of voters and candidates both. Immigration is a blind spot for the liberal leftist party I voted, but they're the least terrible option. I wish people would drop the ideological labels and punchlines like "tolerance", "traditional values", "equal opportunity", "responsibility for the less fortunate" and whatever, and argue clearly the specific issues, one at a time.

I wish people could separate one thing from the other, but it's generally a package deal: either you're critical of multiculturalism and immigration and a crude racist, or you're a naive cosmopolitan unwilling to even consider practical problems. (Still, I think the latter is the lesser evil.) It's OK if a Sikh wants to wear a turban at work, and it's just fucking petty to begrudge that. Or if a Muslim takes a prayer break, instead of the coffee break others enjoy half an hour later. Allowing things that are important to others and have no significant drawback is the decent thing to do. It's not OK if an immigrant (or native!) wants their kid to be exempt from certain classes at school because it's not in line with their culture or religion, or if they dictate how others must behave so as not to insult them. These are issues in different leagues, and should be considered individually rather than dictated by your choice of knee-jerk between "yay multiculturalism!" or "fuck immigrants!"
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 615
From: Israel

  24.04.2015 at 11:16
Written by deadone on 24.04.2015 at 03:50

Whilst it's true that non-Western influences had massive impact on Western civilisation, there was a growing divergence between the West and Middle East over many hundreds if not thousands of years ago...
Quote:


The Middle Ages was not thousands of years ago, if anything a few hundred of years ago thanks to the Enlightenment ("individualism, secularism, emphasis on technological innovation and eventually concepts of universal human rights") - and even that's pushing it. Look at Afghanistan, Iran or Egypt during the 30's up to the 60's - what you'll see are mainly secular societies even if traditional. The return to religion is a rather recent phenomena.

My end point is trying to create a totally unique even essentialist differences - is not real. I'm a naturalist (and a reductionist of sorts), I try my best not to mix metaphysics and politics.

Quote:
Totally agree demography is important even though elements of the Left refuse to believe this and put down all humans as essentially culturally the same.

I don't think the Europeans will stop mass migration - there's no political willpower to stop it. Countries now even continue to accept mass levels of migration during economic downturns, which just increases poverty and social disfunction (look at recent conflict between Zulus and migrants in South Africa).


Seems like that's the direction the EU is taking.
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Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 615
From: Israel

  24.04.2015 at 11:17
Written by IronAngel on 24.04.2015 at 09:54

... I'm just trying to boil it down to the basics of what I consider "civilized" in my society and what ought to be the core of education. Dissent and diversity is welcome (metal is, or was, a kind of reaction) but it needs to be based on a shared knowledge, and it's the job of the education system and the state (through museums, libraries etc.) to uphold it... If the lowest common denominator in some Islamic country is Mohammed, I'd rather it be Einstein and Aristotle in mine.


Well, it used to be Mohammed and Aristotle as a matter of fact. I apologize for not being the most charitable, I just don't think the issues boil down to "our" cultural background to "theirs". I met Syrians, Iraqis and Egyptians who I have lots in common with more than some Israelis I know. To me the problem is [i]mass[/i[ immigration and the social issues that seem to come with it.

Written by IronAngel on 24.04.2015 at 09:54

The problem with the political discussion on multiculturalism and immigration in Finland, at least, is its very polarized, stereotyped and ideological nature. We basically have one anti-EU, anti-gay, anti-art conservative populist party...Understandably but unfortunately, the sensible, liberal, pro-education and science, leftish and bourgeoisie parties and their voters take a very opposed stance to this, mostly for reasons of trend and ideology. ...Criticism of immigration has a poor image among a large segment in Finland (and I imagine most of Europe) because it is so closely associated with boorish voters and politicians who are wrong about most things...Immigration is a blind spot for the liberal leftist party I voted, but they're the least terrible option. I wish people would drop the ideological labels and punchlines like "tolerance", "traditional values", "equal opportunity", "responsibility for the less fortunate" and whatever, and argue clearly the specific issues, one at a time...


Yeah that always was a disturbing dichotomy. I don't think that parties like UKIP in the UK for instance would have risen without the failure of the left to address real issues. Well, I'm assuming to you that's your lesser evil, but people who are more closely affected by it the other way is true.
It's not as if it's an easy choice - declining refugees or not assisting boats (god forbid). There are perhaps creative solutions - but with the current employment rate in Southern Europe it's hard to see any and in Northern Europe mass immigration does not seem to couple well with it's traditional welfare state and is creating a lot of antagonism (I'm referring to Denmark).
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Twelve Virtues of Rationality
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  26.04.2015 at 01:41
Written by Candlemass on 24.04.2015 at 11:16


The Middle Ages was not thousands of years ago, if anything a few hundred of years ago thanks to the Enlightenment ("individualism, secularism, emphasis on technological innovation and eventually concepts of universal human rights") - and even that's pushing it. Look at Afghanistan, Iran or Egypt during the 30's up to the 60's - what you'll see are mainly secular societies even if traditional. The return to religion is a rather recent phenomena.


The issue is that traditional society was tied into Islamic values (just like Western secular society is linked in with Christian values). Any real secularism was limited to middle class intelligentsia in the cities, not the vast illiterate peasants that made up these societies or even urban poor.

And they weren't pleasant cultures either - in Afghanistan women are regarded as a source of income (dowries), can be beaten, disfigured and killed by their husband and pedophilia is rampant (look up Man Love Thursday as well as traditional Islamic practices of marrying off girls as young as 9 to old men).

I'm sure you're aware that even the smallest cultural differences are enough for people to slaughter each other like animals - look a Yugoslavia: Only difference between a Serb, a Croat and a Bosnian Muslim is religion and up to 1991 most were completely secular anyhow!


Quote:

Seems like that's the direction the EU is taking.


Until I see actual reductions in migration intake numbers, I won't believe it. The other unspoken problem is intra-EU migration. Some locals don't just have problems with Asians or Africans, but also with say Eastern and Southern Europeans migrating into their areas.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  26.04.2015 at 02:07
Written by Candlemass on 24.04.2015 at 11:17



Well, it used to be Mohammed and Aristotle as a matter of fact. I apologize for not being the most charitable, I just don't think the issues boil down to "our" cultural background to "theirs". I met Syrians, Iraqis and Egyptians who I have lots in common with more than some Israelis I know. To me the problem is [i]mass[/i[ immigration and the social issues that seem to come with it.



I think it's a cultural issue as well as a mass migration issue.

Australia is a country founded on racism (fear of Asians and non-Anglo-Saxons was one of the main reasons for federation in 1901).

However despite this, non-Anglo-Saxons were successfully integrated from 1950s onwards. This included Pacific Islanders, Vietnamese, Chinese and other Asians from 1970s. Cultural conflict/confrontation was limited and usually based on individuals (exception was Serbs and Croats who continued their 1940s feud including some cases of terrorism).

Yet the Muslims have failed to integrate and have instead come into broader cultural conflict with both mainstream European culture as well as other non-Muslim cultures (e.g. Pacific Islanders let alone traditional enemies, the Jews). The confrontational nature of Islam meant it could not integrate once larger groups of Muslims were around and started to organise into community groups.

The issue is not individuals, the issue is once those individuals start organising into communities. Communities have their own consciousnesses to some degree. And Islamic communities seem to be very aggressive by default.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 615
From: Israel

  26.04.2015 at 03:11
Written by deadone on 26.04.2015 at 02:07

Yet the Muslims have failed to integrate and have instead come into broader cultural conflict with both mainstream European culture as well as other non-Muslim cultures (e.g. Pacific Islanders let alone traditional enemies, the Jews). The confrontational nature of Islam meant it could not integrate once larger groups of Muslims were around and started to organise into community groups. The issue is not individuals, the issue is once those individuals start organising into communities. Communities have their own consciousnesses to some degree. And Islamic communities seem to be very aggressive by default.


It's an ideology and people won't disagree with you that all ideologies are equal. Some may fit better to the 'Western' way of life. As far as the historical reasons, I don't understand fully what causes some communities to integrate and others to not.
It's one thing to explain the social psychology, the process of radicalization (preaching in mosques or internet recruitment and propaganda) and its funding. I had to tutor three Dutch immigrant girls the other day "why did you immigrate?" - "mother wanted to leave" - "why?" - "because Europe isn't good for Jews". I have family in Australia who do guard duty over Jewish community centers in Sydney, following the disgusting comments from my European friends from Belgium ("We have military cars in the streets because of Jews, we're turning into a fascist country because of them") I understand the magnitude of the problem from that perspective among others - but comments like 'nature of Islam' or 'very aggressive by default' are a mystification - an unfair and dangerous one - and for whatever reasons there are for failed integration, they do not lay in this approach.
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Twelve Virtues of Rationality
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  27.04.2015 at 02:58
Written by Candlemass on 26.04.2015 at 03:11

but comments like 'nature of Islam' or 'very aggressive by default' are a mystification - an unfair and dangerous one - and for whatever reasons there are for failed integration, they do not lay in this approach.


They are not unfair - the history of Islam is one of conquest and intolerance. It's holy texts are blatantly militant, intolerant and authoritarian in nature. It's primary architect was a blood thirsty warlord who practicsed what we now call genocide to further the religion.

And this was never renounced or reformed - indeed most successive Islamic empires continued to practice the basic violent dogma right up to present Sunni Wahhabist Saudis and Shia Iranians.

There isn't even a major reform movement within Islam. Most mainstream clerics and the various Islamic creeds they represent continue to push the old intolerant ways. Indeed with failure of secular nationalism in many of these countries, the conservatives are filling the vacuum. funded by the fundamentalist Persian Gulf oil states. Major Islamic clerics have even argued that the concept of universal human rights doesn't apply to Islam which needs its own human rights based upon the intolerant sharia law.

These aren't fringe elements - they're the mainstream.


If Islam was created now, we'd call it a cult and be probably sending in police to raid for weapons and investigate murder, mass pedophilia and abuse claims.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 615
From: Israel

  27.04.2015 at 17:30
Written by deadone on 27.04.2015 at 02:58

These aren't fringe elements - they're the mainstream.


If Islam was created now, we'd call it a cult and be probably sending in police to raid for weapons and investigate murder, mass pedophilia and abuse claims.


Given the polls, it seems most Islamic versions seriously needs reformation, I doubt many people would argue over that point.
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  28.04.2015 at 02:13
Written by Candlemass on 27.04.2015 at 17:30


Given the polls, it seems most Islamic versions seriously needs reformation, I doubt many people would argue over that point.


First problem is most Muslims don't think their religion needs reform. Indeed as a religion it doesn't allow any scope for reform. It's a very rigid religion and it's core is essentially fundamentalist and authoritarian. This is the appeal of the Islamic State and other such groups - they practice Islam in it's original form.

The second problem is Western governments and a lot of left wingers are in denial about Islam needing reform, even when moderate Muslims tell them it's not a religion of peace and needs reform. This itself is a problem of Western political correctness and Western political ties with Sunni fundamentalists.

However the impact is felt on the ground - increased Islamic immigration to West, increased social tension, ongoing issues with terrorism etc and ongoing Islamic conservatism/fundamentalism as it fills the void left by the failure of secular socialism and nationalism.
Rasputin

Posts: 317
From: USA
  29.04.2015 at 21:21
And here we go again...Vehabija/Salafi movement

http://balkanopen.com/policeman-shot-dead-in-terrorist-attack-in-bosnian-serb-city-of-zvornik/
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  30.04.2015 at 02:29
Written by Rasputin on 29.04.2015 at 21:21

And here we go again...Vehabija/Salafi movement

http://balkanopen.com/policeman-shot-dead-in-terrorist-attack-in-bosnian-serb-city-of-zvornik/



Amazing that the once completely secular Bosnian muslms are going down this path especially after 20 years of peace! The only purpose of this is to cause more social strife. It's like they want another civil war.
Rasputin

Posts: 317
From: USA
  01.05.2015 at 11:03
Written by deadone on 30.04.2015 at 02:29

Written by Rasputin on 29.04.2015 at 21:21

And here we go again...Vehabija/Salafi movement

http://balkanopen.com/policeman-shot-dead-in-terrorist-attack-in-bosnian-serb-city-of-zvornik/



Amazing that the once completely secular Bosnian muslms are going down this path especially after 20 years of peace! The only purpose of this is to cause more social strife. It's like they want another civil war.

Well, to be fair, the "Bosnian" identity is relatively new, since if you remember they listed themselves as undefined for a very long time. Now they are talking about Islam being there before the Ottoman invasion and Tvrtko being a :bosnjak: so now they are creating for their identity to be more towards the Islamic side and are less with the Slavic, which I would find to be a much better choice considering that as pagans there was mostly nature worship instead of this shit that we are seeing.

The other thing is terrorists are in full force in both Bosnia and Albania and the occupied territory of Kosovo, and no one is stopping them. I mean, there are meetings in broad daylight of the Salafi/Vehabija/Pro-ISIS groups and no one is doing shit about it. Balkan will be another ticking bomb. I know you are familiar with Serbian issues in "Sandzak" where we have terrorists and separatists operating to no end, because NATO/EU/UN are watching Serbia cannot even send the police there to fix the issue.

This is exactly how the ISIS became what it is today. They trained them, armed them and funded them and left them unattended for some time, and boom the end result we see today. This is how it is going to be in the Balkans again, sadly.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  04.05.2015 at 17:04
Muslims attack a Mohammad cartoon convention in Texas and get their sorry arses perished in the process.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-shooting-20150503-story.html#page=1
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40482

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  04.05.2015 at 18:49
Written by deadone on 04.05.2015 at 17:04

Muslims attack a Mohammad cartoon convention in Texas and get their sorry arses perished in the process.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-shooting-20150503-story.html#page=1


in USA it wont work as in Euroope, home land security, NSA, CIA , FBI take sit seriuslly and terrorism, you can behold more then 72 h whit out charges, some ppl even can disappear and it can be deportation, EU don't know how deal whit jihadists, cancel passport easy, don't let then in again, secret service needs more power, like in USA ... I liie NSA and CIA and I don't like sbhonder dude who traied NSA secretsto media
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 5863
From: Australia

  05.05.2015 at 03:02
Written by Bad English on 04.05.2015 at 18:49


in USA it wont work as in Euroope, home land security, NSA, CIA , FBI take sit seriuslly and terrorism, you can behold more then 72 h whit out charges, some ppl even can disappear and it can be deportation, EU don't know how deal whit jihadists, cancel passport easy, don't let then in again, secret service needs more power, like in USA ... I liie NSA and CIA and I don't like sbhonder dude who traied NSA secretsto media


I like those informers. If you let these agencies get away with everything, democracy suffers.

There has to be balance.
Bad English
Masterchief

Posts: 40482

Age: 30
From: Sweden

  05.05.2015 at 03:42
Written by deadone on 05.05.2015 at 03:02

Written by Bad English on 04.05.2015 at 18:49


in USA it wont work as in Euroope, home land security, NSA, CIA , FBI take sit seriuslly and terrorism, you can behold more then 72 h whit out charges, some ppl even can disappear and it can be deportation, EU don't know how deal whit jihadists, cancel passport easy, don't let then in again, secret service needs more power, like in USA ... I liie NSA and CIA and I don't like sbhonder dude who traied NSA secretsto media


I like those informers. If you let these agencies get away with everything, democracy suffers.

There has to be balance.


true but then ppl will say we don't do much, its 50-50 situation
----
Life is to short for LOVE, there is many great things to do online !!!

Stormtroopers of Death - ''Speak English or Die''

I better die, because I never will learn speek english, so I choose dieing

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