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The original post

Posted by Black Winter on 11.03.2008 at 21:55
Since the old thread had exceeded its limits,here is a new thread to continue some of the previous discutions,please post a logic and a meaningful contributions and try to avoid all kinds of extremism and disrespectful remarks.
I myself will try to contribute meaningfully to clarify some points .



Page 54 of 54

no one

Posts: 3301

Age: 32
From: New Zealand

  02.06.2015 at 21:34
Written by Candlemass on 02.06.2015 at 13:19



It's not your grammar, it's your disturbing continuation of the previous theme; concentrating about who's writing and not what he or they wrote - stepped up now to a tribal level ("You Guys").

I just discovered a few days ago both of my Swedish friend's parents are Bahá'ís. Of course none of my European friends have heard about them, there's no motivation behind it.
A few hundred thousand live in a Shia Theocracy - they are not allowed to participate in Higher education unless they declare themselves Muslim, their holy places destroyed and Mosques built over them, their cemeteries bulldozed leaving the bodies exposed. The same issues arise in Sunni countries while Islamic clergy justify it using their theology.
Maybe one should ask the Bahá'í about 'Islamophobia'.

People are concerned with theocracy and religious ideas for good reasons. Trying to silence the discussion using personal attacks is not going to work - an open discussion will, especially those that include Muslims.

I had a discussion in this thread about wife-beating and the Qur'an. It went into several other issues, like the different translations of the Qur'an and ended up with "treat your wife like a child" implying sometimes she could use a slap to put her in place. I don't know how acceptable you find that but I don't and that's not the only idea I don't find acceptable for various reasons and no "let's hug", "my best friend is", "everyone are the same" is going to solve these disagreements.

I think secularist being passive and quite frankly confused about what democratic discourse is are doing a mistake silencing themselves out of political correctness and wishful thinking.

I'm not trying to silence the discussion or say w'ere all the same, fuck you got a lot out of my few sentences, a few sentences that didn't seem to even register with you....carry on your discussion, i'm out of here
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hipster fag
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 660
From: Israel

  02.06.2015 at 21:55
Written by no one on 02.06.2015 at 21:34

I'm not trying to silence the discussion or say w'ere all the same, fuck you got a lot out of my few sentences, a few sentences that didn't seem to even register with you....carry on your discussion, i'm out of here


I think that's the third time you said "I'm out of here". Would be great to get back to topic. Thanks.

----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Rasputin

Posts: 419
From: USA
  02.06.2015 at 22:12
Written by Arian Totalis on 01.06.2015 at 09:34

I could easily refute everything you guys have said with easily verifiable facts, and that comment about there being no such thing as an American Muslim actually pisses me off to no end. I own the Koran, and the bible, and the Bhagavad Gita, and the Tao te Ching and the I Ching and a plethora of other religious texts, and I have read them all. I've spent a good portion of my life dedicated to the study of religion. It's clear to me that you both have a very narrow minded understanding of the subject and just listen to whatever right wing propaganda is thrown at you. The fact is that you're right, we have nothing to discuss, because you're both biggots, and there's no arguing with people like you. You'll both just sit on you little clouds of ignorant hatred your whole lives.

"Darkness can not drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hatred can not drive out hatred, only love can do that" -Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Go right ahead, I am curious what you have to say and counter argue against anything that Dead One and I have said thus far. Both of us come from the Balkans, both of us are Slavs, both of us were in conflict at the beginning here because of our ethnicity, and yet we are respectful or each other, and we can talk like civilized people that we are, regardless of the bullshit that hit us when we were in Europe. Let's see if you can pull that off with none of the baggage that we entered this forum with.

It is one thing for you do study religion and another to practice it, preach it, teach it and live in it. We have a narrow minded view? How so? You are the one who grew up in the USA, and if you are like most Americans that I know, you have maybe visited 2-3 states and if you were lucky went to Europe for a vacation or two but even that is rare. So how could you possibly have such a "deep" insight on religion that you have not experienced firsthand in the countries that are run by Muslims and where Islam is everything.

There is no such thing as an American Muslim, there is a Muslim who lives in America, because you are a Muslim first and everything else second. It is funny to me for them to swear the allegiance to the flag, when in fact Islamic law overrides any other. It is you my liberal friend who has no touching points with reality. Muslims are "tolerant" in any culture they are a minority, but only to that extent until they reach a critical mass and control a city block, a region or a town, then fun starts to happen.

There is no sense talking about Christianity, because it is compatible with Democracy and it lost its power aside from few countries. Islam is rising, radicalization is increasing, and Muslims are dominating more and more countries, and I for one do not want my country be it presently the USA or Serbia or any other for that matter to be fucked over and returned to stone age. If you think Islam is religion of peace, then please book a vacation to Saudi Arabia, and try to speak your mind, if you survive by some luck, bring us a shirt. Muah, love you honey.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6341
From: Australia

  04.06.2015 at 08:40
Written by Candlemass on 02.06.2015 at 13:19

I think secularist being passive and quite frankly confused about what democratic discourse is are doing a mistake silencing themselves out of political correctness and wishful thinking.


Problem with "mainstream" secularist thinking (which is mainly liberal) is that it has embraced this strange religion of political correctness whereby anything that could be perceived as offensive is immedialtely prohibited and censored.

The other big problem is that racism is seen as some thing only Western white people do when in fact the whole of humanity participates in it on a daily basis and often far worse than merely verbally bagging out religions. (like those Bahá'í people you mention who are victims of even extremer racism/oppression).

Quote:
an open discussion will, especially those that include Muslims.


Therein lies the problem.

Muslims as a whole generally aren't open to discussing their religion even between themselves. Anyone that questions the established Islamic orthodoxy is liable to to get a fatwa issued against them and require police protection for the rest of their lives.

As such secularists avoid discussing Islam in order to not aggravate Muslims who are liable to do something violent in response.

And thus the vicious cycle continues - the conservatives/fundamentalists rant and gain ground and the rest of humanity stays quiet, thus making the convservatives/fundamentalists the only voice.
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 660
From: Israel

  04.06.2015 at 11:38
Written by deadone on 04.06.2015 at 08:40

Problem with "mainstream" secularist thinking (which is mainly liberal) is that it has embraced this strange religion of political correctness whereby anything that could be perceived as offensive is immedialtely prohibited and censored.

The other big problem is that racism is seen as some thing only Western white people do when in fact the whole of humanity participates in it on a daily basis and often far worse than merely verbally bagging out religions. (like those Bahá'í people you mention who are victims of even extremer racism/oppression).


Left wing anti-intellectualism has a long history that was usually shared with the romantic right until recent. With the death of Fascism and the replacement of them with a Marxist elite it's hard to see what was in principle wrong with these movements. Marx is widely read, Mussolini and Hitler (even banned) are not.
The cheap relativism, the romanticism (you should read Fascist poetry, it's hilarious), the disdain from consequentialism are all forgotten in the new tribalism. The epistemic lessons are replaced with dogmatic moralism.
The latest wave that continues to this day started in the 60's, the "New Left". Adorno called it "Actionism". Herbert Marcuse rejects his own students when asked about anti-intellectualism by Magee.

Yes, a new metaphysical system where "white" means powerful in virtue of being white. More ethnocentric nonsense. Successful Jews are brushed away as "white (enough)" but Asians leave them without much to say. Eventually Thomas Sowell, Steven Pinker,, probability theory and similar empirical approaches explain human variation quite better than the Neo-Marxist explanations.

I don't think the politically correct are naive, I think it's a well thought of ideology that like any politically correct system aims at social censorship (read "Explaining post-modernism" or Pascal Bruckner for postmodernism and cynicism). The right and far right are gaining significantly more support in Europe (Denmark, France, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands) and I know several people who would not vote for them if the other parties would actually address the issues that arise from mass-immigration.
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Ilham
Giant robot

Posts: 4966

Age: 26
From: Morocco

  04.06.2015 at 16:50
Written by deadone on 04.06.2015 at 08:40

Therein lies the problem.

Muslims as a whole generally aren't open to discussing their religion even between themselves. Anyone that questions the established Islamic orthodoxy is liable to to get a fatwa issued against them and require police protection for the rest of their lives.

As such secularists avoid discussing Islam in order to not aggravate Muslims who are liable to do something violent in response.

And thus the vicious cycle continues - the conservatives/fundamentalists rant and gain ground and the rest of humanity stays quiet, thus making the convservatives/fundamentalists the only voice.

This is what is happening to Morocco.
Rasputin

Posts: 419
From: USA
  05.06.2015 at 04:33
Written by Ilham on 04.06.2015 at 16:50

Written by deadone on 04.06.2015 at 08:40

Therein lies the problem.

Muslims as a whole generally aren't open to discussing their religion even between themselves. Anyone that questions the established Islamic orthodoxy is liable to to get a fatwa issued against them and require police protection for the rest of their lives.

As such secularists avoid discussing Islam in order to not aggravate Muslims who are liable to do something violent in response.

And thus the vicious cycle continues - the conservatives/fundamentalists rant and gain ground and the rest of humanity stays quiet, thus making the convservatives/fundamentalists the only voice.

This is what is happening to Morocco.

It pretty much happens anywhere where there is a large concentration of Muslims. For me the biggest worry is how much influence the Imams have over the people. If they flip flop from "moderate" to "extreme" their people will follow.

In Iran for instance, they have "police" checking/arresting women or men who are doing something that the Islam does not agree with, that is the future unfortunately, and Iran was doing well at one point, however, they still for being a heavily control nation and country are more relaxed that some other places I have seen.
ixsetf

Posts: 23

Age: 20
From: USA
  09.06.2015 at 21:29
Written by Rasputin on 09.06.2015 at 07:38
Uh, Islam, another favorite topic of mine. If you want, we can talk about that in the other topic "Islam" where you will see where I stand on it. While I agree with you that the freedom of religion should be granted, I don't Islam counts, simply because it is a cult of death. If we accept Islam then we have to let Charles Manson and anyone other cultist out there to roam free, because that is what is going on.


The primary reason I disagree with this comes from the fact that it would give the government the power to decide what counts as a cult and what is a religion. I could very easily see this power being abused, with some politician deciding that a legitimate non-threatening religious group is a cult and expelling them. This of course doesn't mean we should allow the more barbaric practices practices by some Muslims like Female Genital Mutilation or violent Jihads. But we should allow them to hold their beliefs and practice prayer.
Rasputin

Posts: 419
From: USA
  09.06.2015 at 22:28
Written by ixsetf on 09.06.2015 at 21:29

Written by Rasputin on 09.06.2015 at 07:38
Uh, Islam, another favorite topic of mine. If you want, we can talk about that in the other topic "Islam" where you will see where I stand on it. While I agree with you that the freedom of religion should be granted, I don't Islam counts, simply because it is a cult of death. If we accept Islam then we have to let Charles Manson and anyone other cultist out there to roam free, because that is what is going on.


The primary reason I disagree with this comes from the fact that it would give the government the power to decide what counts as a cult and what is a religion. I could very easily see this power being abused, with some politician deciding that a legitimate non-threatening religious group is a cult and expelling them. This of course doesn't mean we should allow the more barbaric practices practices by some Muslims like Female Genital Mutilation or violent Jihads. But we should allow them to hold their beliefs and practice prayer.

While I agree with you that it is problematic to put power like that in someones hands, I still think that something should be done about Islam. You can read the previous posts back and forth and see what we have discussed so far. I think deadone outlined it well, and it was to the effect of:

1. Islam is not a religion of peace, but conquest and submission

2. Islam does not fit with the Western society, because it rejects it's values, principles and morals and instills it's own.

3. Islam will never evolve because it is perceived as perfect by it's adherents. It did not and it will not have a massive upgrade and change like Christianity did.

4. Islam, even the so called "moderate" Islam still endorses pedophilia, death to apostates and infidels, subjugation of non Muslims, death and persecution of Christians and homosexuals and mistreatment of women. Honor killings happen in USA, England, EU and everywhere where there is a large group of Muslims.

5. Islam has only one goal, and that is the subjugation and conversion of the entire planet to Islam, where there is nothing but Islam and it's teachings.

6. Islam is a religion created by a lunatic, on par with Charles Manson and other twisted individuals like that, so to expect anything positive is asinine.

And there are many more to list.

While I would agree with you that they should be allowed to go to prayer and the like, you have to keep in mind that their Imams are the ones who are directing them and instructing them to commit violence and destruction. Basically, under Allah/Muhammad and maybe the religious leaders in Mecca, they are the ones in command, and their rule is almost absolute, which is even more scary. Islam has no moderation, it is all or nothing, so I can see why some of the leaders in the USA and around the world would want to send them back to their countries, and to be honest I would too, because they do not embrace a single culture they move to, they only work to destroy it, since they want assimilation according to their view, not the country that granted them a better life.

I said it once and I will say it again, as a Muslim you are first and foremost a Muslim, everything else is secondary. So I laugh when I hear the expression "American Muslim" or "Australian Muslim" those distinctions do not exist among them, they only exist among the very naive, shelter and blind, who are not able to see the truth for what it is.

Does this mean that every Muslim is evil and wants to kill, no, not at all, but does it have propensity for violence if directed by higher authority, you bet. So we have "radical" or true Muslims, and we have the "moderates" who are on a standby. The only thing they are waiting is for more power and larger numbers, then they can do whatever the fuck they want, and if we are stupid enough to give it to them for the sake of "freedom" and "liberty" we will lose that freedom and liberty.
deadone
has a mangina

Posts: 6341
From: Australia

  12.06.2015 at 07:10
Oh those funny Australian muslims.

Some Islamic groups are refusing to take part in counter-radicalisation programs or anti-Islamic terrorism conferences because they "don't like some of the language politicians use."

So in essence they're saying it's better to let terrorism and radicalism proliferate than co-operate with authorities to develop solutions merely due to word play. Better let people die than engage in flawed processes to try to fix the problem.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4253490.htm

I wonder if they ever figured out they could change the language used if they engaged with the wider community? But that doesn't fit in with general Islamic practice of "you adopt to our ways, we do not adopt to yours."
Rasputin

Posts: 419
From: USA
  12.06.2015 at 13:16
Written by deadone on 12.06.2015 at 07:10

Oh those funny Australian muslims.

Some Islamic groups are refusing to take part in counter-radicalisation programs or anti-Islamic terrorism conferences because they "don't like some of the language politicians use."

So in essence they're saying it's better to let terrorism and radicalism proliferate than co-operate with authorities to develop solutions merely due to word play. Better let people die than engage in flawed processes to try to fix the problem.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4253490.htm

I wonder if they ever figured out they could change the language used if they engaged with the wider community? But that doesn't fit in with general Islamic practice of "you adopt to our ways, we do not adopt to yours."

Awesome, just awesome. Like I said before, you will be hard pressed to find these "moderate" Muslims as it was hard to find "moderate" Xtians back in the day. But no, just let them pour in. EU is fucked, so are the Balkans, and both USA and Australia will be in deep shit in the next 50 years when these people procreate and spawn more crazy Allah loving, infidel killing children.

In the meantime...
http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Svet/565238/ISLAMISTI-PRETE-BALKANU-Krenite-u-napad-na-Kosovo-Makedoniju-Albaniju
Candlemass
Defaeco

Posts: 660
From: Israel

  24.06.2015 at 11:19
A conversation between Ali A. Rizvi and Faisal Saeed Al Mutar.

"in academia, unfortunately, they live in an alternate universe...White guilt, and moral and cultural relativism also play a major role in shaping these men's views."
----
Twelve Virtues of Rationality

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