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The original post

Posted by 4look4rd on 15.07.2006 at 04:48
I think Rock just had an influence of what Heavy Metal would be later, but in my opinion Metal is a totally new genere (not just a sub-genere) with its own characteristcs, way distinct from Rock. Even thou Hard Rock is very similar to Heavy Metal.



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RavenKing

Posts: 1941
From: Canada

  22.04.2011 at 05:29
Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.


False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.
----
They shake your hand and they smile and they buy you a drink
They say we'll be your friends we'll stick with you till the end
But everybody's only looking out for themselves
And you say who can you trust I'll tell you nobody
Balthazine

Posts: 58

Age: 23
From: USA

  22.04.2011 at 05:35
Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.


False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.


I stand corrected then.
----
Sometimes in metal they have called me:
The Minneapolis Metal Music Examiner -I write articles on metal in the MN area for Examiner.com
The Metal Detector -A history of digging up old forgotten metal bands
Thrash Master -Famous for my Walls O' Thrash
RavenKing

Posts: 1941
From: Canada

  22.04.2011 at 05:43
Written by Balthazine on 22.04.2011 at 05:35

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.


False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.


I stand corrected then.


Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.
----
They shake your hand and they smile and they buy you a drink
They say we'll be your friends we'll stick with you till the end
But everybody's only looking out for themselves
And you say who can you trust I'll tell you nobody
Xnoybis
Duke Nukem

Posts: 12512

Age: 42
From: Paraguay

  22.04.2011 at 05:44
Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.


False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.


Bathory was influenced by Sabbath, Motorhead, and Charged G.B.H. early Sabbath for Atmosphere, Motorhead for energy, and G.B.H. for speed.

so sayeth Quorthon... and the punk influence is clear enough for anyone who's heard "you don't move me ( i don't give a fuck)". and thrash had yet to register on his radar when he hit the studio for his first primitive recordings.
----
get the fuck off my lawn.
RavenKing

Posts: 1941
From: Canada

  22.04.2011 at 05:47
Written by Xnoybis on 22.04.2011 at 05:44

so sayeth Quorthon... and the punk influence is clear enough for anyone who's heard "you don't move me ( i don't give a fuck)". and thrash had yet to register on his radar when he hit the studio for his first primitive recordings.


Early Bathory sounds like blackened Thrash Metal.
As for Quorthon having been influenced by Venom or not, we'll never know the real story. I believe he heard old school Thrash before Bathory recorded their first album.
----
They shake your hand and they smile and they buy you a drink
They say we'll be your friends we'll stick with you till the end
But everybody's only looking out for themselves
And you say who can you trust I'll tell you nobody
Balthazine

Posts: 58

Age: 23
From: USA

  22.04.2011 at 08:48
Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:43

Written by Balthazine on 22.04.2011 at 05:35

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.


False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.


I stand corrected then.


Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.


This is very true.
----
Sometimes in metal they have called me:
The Minneapolis Metal Music Examiner -I write articles on metal in the MN area for Examiner.com
The Metal Detector -A history of digging up old forgotten metal bands
Thrash Master -Famous for my Walls O' Thrash
Dark Cornatus
Powerslave

Posts: 4182

Age: 30
From: Australia

  29.04.2011 at 07:02
Written by Yasmine on 18.04.2011 at 21:11

I disagree that they can be traced back to Sabbath for anything more than power chords, in theory bands today can not trace anything but that back to Sabbath, take say Stratovarius so influenced by Classical, where can they trace that back to? Certainly NOT Black Sabbath AT ALL. I would argue that Black Sabbath exhibits Very little of what we call metal, and that calling Sabbath metal would make ANYTHING WITH POWER CHORDS metal. We know that this is not remotely accurate, but since there are so many Sabbath fans here I must quit while I'm ahead. lol


Let me provide an analogy to your argument by using biological evolution. I know this wont appear relevant as it is a completely different topic, but it is exactly the same principal because evolution involves developing on an ancestors traits into something more suitable for it's changing environment.



Note how mammals share a common ancestry with sea squirts (tunicates) back down the evolutionary tree. Mammals and sea squirts are different, but share a common backbone (of sorts). This can be similar to what you are saying with power chords in metal. All it takes in numerous metal bands to develop a bands sound such as Sabbath for example, to pave an "evolutionary tree" for future metal genres to develop.
ForeverDarkWoods

Posts: 1001

Age: 23
From: Sweden

  07.05.2011 at 01:08
Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:43

Written by Balthazine on 22.04.2011 at 05:35

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.


False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.


I stand corrected then.


Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

There was, however, a period where the embryonic stages of both were heavily intertwined and often blended together, an the terms death metal nad black metal were used to describe bands in a manner that today would be seen as wrong. Back in those days though, the borders were often more fluid. Necrovore, for example, was described as both a black and death metal band at the time, as was Mayhem (one of the famous live posters from the early days, for instance, refers to them as the death metal kings from Norway).
----
Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction!
- George W. Bush, ex-president of the United States of America
ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 3184

Age: 23
From: Serbia

  07.05.2011 at 02:27
Written by ForeverDarkWoods on 07.05.2011 at 01:08

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:43

Written by Balthazine on 22.04.2011 at 05:35

Written by RavenKing on 22.04.2011 at 05:29

Written by Balthazine on 18.04.2011 at 20:55

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.


False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.


I stand corrected then.


Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

There was, however, a period where the embryonic stages of both were heavily intertwined and often blended together, an the terms death metal nad black metal were used to describe bands in a manner that today would be seen as wrong. Back in those days though, the borders were often more fluid. Necrovore, for example, was described as both a black and death metal band at the time, as was Mayhem (one of the famous live posters from the early days, for instance, refers to them as the death metal kings from Norway).

yes but those two terms was often mixed by mass media,people that didnt really give shit is it death or black...or they have by mistake mixed these two terms.....
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
Ozman
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 36725

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  07.05.2011 at 02:43
Nope, Angel Reaper at the time those two were used by people who were totally into the undergound. And of course the second wave of black metal also started cause they thought death metal had become live metal with the way they dressed (sneakers and such) and the sound being too slick. The second wave bands said they played the true death metal.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 3184

Age: 23
From: Serbia

  07.05.2011 at 02:58
Well i do saw a lot of tv clips from that days that described Bathory,Immortal,Mayhem... as Death Metal...........
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
Ozman
Grumpy Fuck

Posts: 36725

Age: 46
From: The Netherlands

  07.05.2011 at 03:07
Written by ANGEL REAPER on 07.05.2011 at 02:58

Well i do saw a lot of tv clips from that days that described Bathory,Immortal,Mayhem... as Death Metal...........



Immortal and Mayhem demos WERE death metal as was Marduk and Darkthrone. And old Bathory was just Venom rip off crap.
Like I was saying the 2nd wave did evolve out of death metal. They even considered themselves death metal. They all wanted to emulate early death, possessed, morbid angel.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Void Eater
Crunkcore Fan

Posts: 2234

Age: 20
From: USA

  07.05.2011 at 04:57
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't black metal develop from Bathory more than any other band? As in, not from death metal?
----
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18673
From: Canada

  07.05.2011 at 06:15
Not that I was there, but musically black metal evolved from thrash. Maybe the culture or scenes between black and death were very similar, but to my knowledge expanding on Venom and Bathory was what created the black metal movement.
----
Prettier than BloodTears.
ANGEL REAPER

Posts: 3184

Age: 23
From: Serbia

  07.05.2011 at 13:38
@ Marcel yes i am completely aware that their early stuff were death metal .....I was just talking about the genres definitions were often mixed it that days even by artist themselves ....Shit even Quorthon described Bathory 1989 like Death and Trash metal.....not black......
As far as the Norwegians in 1990's they have labeled themselves as black.....
http://www.anus.com/metal/about/history/
----
"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"
stephenssaiyan

Posts: 174

Age: 33
From: USA

  13.05.2011 at 22:25
Heres my take on metal.

Blues to Rock - classic rock to metal initially.

Thrash (first extreme metal)
Thrash has 3 main influences: Rock(metallica), Punk(anthrax), Death metal(slayer)

classic death metal is essentially extreme thrash

from there are worlds of influences that complete the whole spectrum of the genre of metal.
king_matt

Posts: 449

Age: 17
From: USA

  23.12.2011 at 19:39
I pretty sure, according to Sam Dunn, metal came from blues and classical music.
----
http://www.last.fm/user/King_Matt
Pennywise213
Account deleted
  24.12.2011 at 00:09
The term rock is a extremly wide ranged genre and means guitar dominated music since the British Invasion. Even Bo Diddley and Chuck Berry are called rock by some.

For me its this way: Electric Blues - Classic Rock (1965 - 1975) - Classic Metal (1968- 1978) - Punk (1976) - Motörhead and NWOBM (1979) - Trash Metal (1983) - Death/Black Metal

Yardbirds, Kinks, Who, Cream, Hendrix, Zeppelin and other Blues/Hardrock from Mid 60s to Early 70s are the basis of metal, but it started in the aftermath of Punk that metal was an own genre, with the New Wave Of British Metal and Overkill (Motörhead) in 1979.

Classic Rock/Metal + Punk = Extreme Metal

Proto Extreme Metal
Black Sabbath - Symptom of the Universe (1965)
Judas Priest - The Ripper, Dissident Aggressor, Exiter (1976 - 78)
M C Vice
Ex-polydactyl

Posts: 1852

Age: 28
From: Australia

  31.12.2011 at 13:38
Black Sabbath and the original Judas Priest (with al Atkins) were blues bands. Motorhead were the first to bring the rock and punk elements into metal. Then came the NWOBHM.
----
"I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "How does he know what I'm thinking?" Well I know everything, and so does your internet service provider."
"I can hope my ass is made of ice cream, but that don't m
lordchadi

Posts: 102
From: Egypt

  07.01.2012 at 07:05
I think the tree family of metal starts with Elvis Presley then came the rock then the hard rock then heavy & thrash came parallel then from this 2 genre came all the others
Aristarchos

Posts: 764

Age: 30
From: Sweden
  07.01.2012 at 13:12
Black Sabbath was influenced by both rock, blues, jazz and classical, so metal comes from all these genres.
IronAngel

Posts: 4393

Age: 25
From: Finland

  07.01.2012 at 13:27
I hate to point out the obvious, but you're arguing about metaphors. Evolution is a biological model of life forms with a physical connections to the chain of evolution: they are born and give birth. Music doesn't work this way. Metal didn't "evolve" from rock in any real, concrete way. Black Sabbath aren't the "fathers" of doom; Ozzy Osbourne is the father of his two children. A piece of music has no direct causal connection to another piece, though it may carry some influence through a complex chain of people hearing and making music.

Sure, it can still make sense to discuss different models and compare your ways of understanding metal's evolution. But there's no point in arguing back and forth about what really evolved from what, because it's all metaphorical. The kind of information RavenKing and Marcel are discussing is very interesting, and I'm sure there's even more to it. But ultimately, you'll be discussing the statements, intentions and personal influences of individual musicians, some long dead, and it's very difficult to get to the bottom of those. Two bands playing in the same movement might claim to have completely different influences and inspiration, for example. How will you decide which is the "correct" course of metal's evolution?
Milena
Learning To "X"

Posts: 4380

Age: 22
From: Serbia

  07.01.2012 at 13:41
Written by IronAngel on 07.01.2012 at 13:27

How will you decide which is the "correct" course of metal's evolution?

They won't. They'll just discuss.
----
"There comes a time when you look into the mirror and you realize that what you see is all that you will ever be. And then you accept it. Or you kill yourself. Or you stop looking in mirrors."
Nick K.

Posts: 248
From: Austria

  30.05.2013 at 22:40
Sure it came from Rock. Black Sabbath, officially the first "Heavy metal" band was inspired by diverse rock artists.
Aseliot

Posts: 58

Age: 23
From: The Netherlands
  01.06.2013 at 20:34
There was this site called map of metal which had all genres and stuff connected, i don't know if it was right but it was kinda cool but it seems to have problems now or it's just gone. I hope not, i liked the chart-thing they did with this world map and every metal genre had it's own land so to speak.
----
Anál nathrach,
orth' bháis's bethad,
do chél dénmha
Jtbmetal123

Posts: 332

Age: 23
From: USA

  03.06.2013 at 16:13
I believe heavy metal came from early blues and rock n roll.
Ritual_Suicide

Posts: 90

Age: 31
From: USA

  11.04.2014 at 02:20
Traditional metal grew out of a mix of hard rock, blues rock, psychedelic rock and a little bit of prog rock.
So yes, metal came from rock. Saying otherwise is just plain stupid.
Dentura
Shadow King

Posts: 1168

Age: 21
From: USA

  11.04.2014 at 03:13
Is this a trick question?
----
...And so death to the falsity of thy former rulers. Thy kingdom of "heaven" burns in a field of fire, and Dentura is the one true God thou must yield thy hearts and souls to in absolute submission. It is his ultimate decree and will unto thee..
deadone
Mainstream Poser

Posts: 4383
From: Australia

  11.04.2014 at 03:14
Written by Ritual_Suicide on 11.04.2014 at 02:20

Traditional metal grew out of a mix of hard rock, blues rock, psychedelic rock and a little bit of prog rock.
So yes, metal came from rock. Saying otherwise is just plain stupid.



Yeah I don't see how it could be anything else!
Troy Killjoy
perfunctionist

Posts: 18673
From: Canada

  11.04.2014 at 16:31
Metal just spontaneously existed. Of course it doesn't take any influence whatsoever from any other forms of heavy music.
----
Prettier than BloodTears.

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