I know this might seem a wierd topic but it's something I've considered for a long time. I will explain. When I was in high school, not many people listened to rock or metal, as you would expect from 11 to 15 year olds. I think people find their personilty at around 16 or 17 years old. We were about 5 rock (metal) fans in a school of 400 pupils. When I moved on to Lycee (French equivalent to College), there were slighty more rock/metal fans, it's funny to notice how those people who listened to Nirvana and co. back in high school suddenly appeared to listen to all sorts of metal bands. We were all drawn together. Basically every metalhead in the school new the others. We were a maximum of 30 metalheads out of 700 students. I must mention now that in high school and Lycee, the rock/metal fans were always average students, getting average marks without working at all, and I was one of them. When I moved on to Uni, it seemed most my metal friends had to, and many more from over colleges. In the first year, of English studies, we were a full line in the amphitheatre who the lecturers depised and saw as rejects and future dropouts. Again, we all got slightly about average grades, just enough to get through to the following year with the minimum of work. Funny enough, along the years us metalheads managed to progress from year to year whilst others droped out. In our third year we were like 20 out of 60 students. During my masters degree, we were 5 out of fifteen. It's as if we're the only people with a mind capable of analysing a subject quickly and intelligently are capable of understanding the beauty of metal. I would like to know whether other people have experienced or noticed similar things or whether it was a one of matter that occured during my education (although the amount of fresh metalhead students turning up every year at Uni tends to justify my statement).

PS: A mate made me notice the same thing with left handed people. Every year the proportion of left handed people in the class tended to rise, I remember one lesson when there were more lefthanded people than right handed and that is not natural.

Written by Haddonfield on 20.07.2009 at 01:55

It's as if we're the only people with a mind capable of analysing a subject quickly and intelligently are capable of understanding the beauty of metal.

Pretty arrogant statement, wouldn't you agree? Anybody can be touched by metal (or any other musical genre for that matter); to be able to understand metal is nothing to be proud of.

First of all, I guess this would depend mostly on the individual. I wouldn't know about this on a general level. In high school there weren't much people who were into rock or even metal, and the ones that apparently were into it weren't on my class, so I never knew them. Now, at university, it's almost the same thing. The amount of people of my career that are into metal are very few, in fact I don't know or recall any.

But anyway, what I was gonna say is that I think that people who really are into metal (and by this I exclude 'posers' and make emphasis on the fact that it depends on the individual), are very open minded not only towards music, but towards other subjects as well (whatever the persons interest may be), and I would think that would make a difference between them and people who just narrow themselves to fewer subjects. I mean, an open minded person is gonna be looking into more stuff than others, which would make them at least more 'knowledgeable' than others who are not. And I'd say that many metalheads are more open minded than others.

This topic is just...useless. Does every genre of music have its fans self-examine themselves as much as metal fans do? Metal fans are just like every other person out there, theres going to be stupid people, and theres going to be highly intelligent people. To think otherwise is just arrogance.

I think metal fans think they are more intelligent.

I'd even say that most of the metalheads are complete morons. The average metalhead you meet in the street (or at a concert) can't be considered more intelligent then the average person. Yep, surely there are metalheads with a lot of intelligent interests but I can't see how this is related to the metal music.

Written by BitterCOld on 20.07.2009 at 08:41

I think metal fans think they are more intelligent.

you got it there

there are definitely many very clever people liking metal, but on the other hand, there will be a band of idiots thinking they rule the world, when listening to metal

Written by DayFly on 20.07.2009 at 03:02

Written by Haddonfield on 20.07.2009 at 01:55

It's as if we're the only people with a mind capable of analysing a subject quickly and intelligently are capable of understanding the beauty of metal.

Pretty arrogant statement, wouldn't you agree? Anybody can be touched by metal (or any other musical genre for that matter); to be able to understand metal is nothing to be proud of.

Not a statement, I mere observation, notice the presence of an "if" wirthin the sentence.

Written by Doc G. on 20.07.2009 at 08:19

This topic is just...useless. Does every genre of music have its fans self-examine themselves as much as metal fans do? Metal fans are just like every other person out there, theres going to be stupid people, and theres going to be highly intelligent people. To think otherwise is just arrogance.

It's not thinking overwise but noticing overwise. When the proportion of metalheads within a class rises the higher the education.

Written by Elio on 20.07.2009 at 09:34

I'd even say that most of the metalheads are complete morons. The average metalhead you meet in the street (or at a concert) can't be considered more intelligent then the average person. Yep, surely there are metalheads with a lot of intelligent interests but I can't see how this is related to the metal music.

That seems to be the image the media try to project of the metal scene. Beavis and Butthead, Bill and Ted, Wayne and Garth, the metalhead in movie and TV is always an idiot. However, I have very rarely met stupid metalheads in my life. Maybe it is a question of localisation or something, what I want to know with this thread is simply whether others have witnessed a similar thing. Some people have talked of opwn-mindedness and I also believe it is the key to people listening to metal and achieving a decent education. To me open mindedness is essential when analysing a subject and the higher the education, the more analysing a person must do.

Truth be told, I used to think like this. And it might not be entirely baseless: in grade school (possibly in high schools in some part of the world), smart and/or geeky kids are often social misfits. They cannot or will not blend into the popular circles. Metal is a good way to gain some self-esteem and distinguish yourself from the mass. It's masculine, it's individualistic, it appears intelligent (even if it's not) and controversial. So it's an understandable choice for many smart but socially inept kids.

But then I went to high school, grew up, gained a group of incredibly intelligent, interesting and social friends who had little interest in metal. I left Metalstorm for other social circles, saw the world. And when I came back here, I must say the apparent stupidity of metalheads hit me like a sledgehammer. The majority of metalheads seem to be inbred, arrogant jerks who can't see beyond the scope of their personal preference. But I guess that's not a completely fair assesment, either.

Written by IronAngel on 20.07.2009 at 16:20

Truth be told, I used to think like this. And it might not be entirely baseless: in grade school (possibly in high schools in some part of the world), smart and/or geeky kids are often social misfits. They cannot or will not blend into the popular circles. Metal is a good way to gain some self-esteem and distinguish yourself from the mass. It's masculine, it's individualistic, it appears intelligent (even if it's not) and controversial. So it's an understandable choice for many smart but socially inept kids.

But then I went to high school, grew up, gained a group of incredibly intelligent, interesting and social friends who had little interest in metal. I left Metalstorm for other social circles, saw the world. And when I came back here, I must say the apparent stupidity of metalheads hit me like a sledgehammer. The majority of metalheads seem to be inbred, arrogant jerks who can't see beyond the scope of their personal preference. But I guess that's not a completely fair assesment, either.

The thing is I've never been a social misfit. People keep talking about arrogance but what is arrogant about noticing simple things in life. Does the fact the proportion of metalheads in the Uni, I attended, being higher than when I was in high school make a real impact in my life, not really, I've hung around with groups of people who listen to all kinds of music all my life and I've never waited to see someone who listens to metal come my way before making a friend. Was it nice to have more metalheads? Yes, it was, it makes breaks more enjoyable as you can talk to people about subjects you are interested in and therefore distance yourself from the studies. Now another question, does this higher proportion make me feel superior? Not at all, oops, there goes any chance of arrogance. It's simply a mere thing I've notice, I don't even consider myself as a metalhead, I listen to metal but also lots of other things and I hate being branded to a stereotype. If you look at the original post, you will see I mention rock/metal several times. Most of the "metalheads" at Uni, aren't what would be considered as "true metal" fans by most. Although, they listen to metal, they also listen to other kinds of music, mainly within the rock scene. And finally, I do believe there are dumb metalheads, they are usually the ones who reject anyone or everything they don't consider "true". Some people have mentionned that openmindedness is possibly the reason there are more metalheads in Uni than in lower education circles (in proportion that is), those people who go on about "true" do not have an openmind. Just as those people who immediately felt offended and talked about arrogance in this thread possibly lack the openmindedness to discuss a delicate or possibly offensive subject. I never intended to make a statement saying metal fans are more intelligent, I just wanted to know if over people have noticed the same thing.

"DO YOU THINK METAL FANS ARE MORE INTELLIGENT THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON?"

Of course. Isn't it apparent that I am hands down the smartest person...ever! Why? Because I listen to Metal. Those silly biochemical engineers don't listen to Liquid Tension Experiment because they are so stupid they can't recognize real music! METAL = SMRT PEOPLE!




I have met some absolutely brilliant Metalheads in my life who are doctors, scientists, clergy, engineers, historians, etc. At the same time some of the dumbest people I have ever met are Metalheads.

This could be said about any form of music, Metal is no exception. I think it takes a certain type of person to appreciate Metal, but that doesn't make their intellect any higher than someone who doesn't care for the harshness of Metal.

I wasn't accusing you of arrogance, Haddon. I'm merely speaking from my own experience: while I never was a "social misfit", I was never part of the most popular, social and trend-setting groups (in grade school, that is). I noticed the same thing in other people, too.

It's certainly an interesting observation you have made, and deserves some consideration - not as means to boost metalhead egos, but simply as a curiosity of sociology.

It's a bit hard to have a serious, objective discussion about it without more data, though. We'd need statistics that chart the musical preferences of the entire population of a country, and the preferences within different levels and fields of education. The survey should consider all types of music, not just metal. Our personal experiences aren't a valid source of statistical data, because of the limited scope, the selective nature of human memory and the fact we simply can't tell how smart a person is and what he listens to just by looking at him. It is only the obvious cases that get noted in this way.

My personal hypothesis is that people in University, and otherwise intelligent, social people are likely to listen to music that isn't the center of the mainstream. (Electronica, metal, classical, indie etc.) Whether this means they have a smarter taste, or that it's simply socially more acceptable in the groups they belong to, I don't know. That could be studied.

I wager social factors, group dynamics etc. affect your musical preference more than your inherent mental capacity. Either way, it would certainly be an interesting research to conduct, from a neutral and scientific point of view.

That's exactly what I was trying to express. It's more from a social perspective than anything else. Of course metal isn't the only music people listen to in Unis... But other types of music you mentioned like classical, indie and I would add Jazz to that to me are well worked material, whether one appreciates it or not. The thing that bothers me though is that whereas Jazz and Classical are portrayed in popular culture as the music of the cultured intellect, metal and rock are portrayed as the music of dellinquance, violence and other unsociable behaviours. Maybe I should have said cultured instead of intelligent in the title of the thread, although I believe one goes hand in hand with the other, it may have prevented some misunderstanding.

I don't know; in Finland, metal has a pretty positive image. It doesn't have quite the social status of classical and jazz, but I'd say it's pretty much on the same level as indie and more sophisticated forms of electronica (speaking if Trip Hop, Ambient, IDM, EBM and various fusions of pop/rock and electronic music; not the teenage nightclub stuff). Metal is no longer seen as the music of unwashed pizza boys, but rather as a creative and serious genre.

At least around here, rock is pretty much bread and butter for the general public, just as much as, if not more than MTV-style pop. It carries very few connotations with being underground, dissident, rebel, alternative or cultured. But then, I guess the relevant distinction is not between genres, but between mainstream popularity: In Flames, Coldplay and Lady Gaga all lack "cultural credibility", but it gives a smart impression to enjoy Isis, Röyksopp or Kate Bush (because she's retro!).

I do believe there's a connection with how "cultured" you are and the kind of music you enjoy. After all, being cultured in itself suggests that you've assumed certain standards of your culture.

I listen to metal and I'm stupid........

it's the other way around. some intelligent people listen to metal.

tbh there is no connection between a persons musical preference and their intelligence.

It's pretty much consensual. I don't think it has anything to do with musical styles per se. Different people are drawn to different kinds of music for various circumstances.

Some people often adopt elitist types of behaviour because they listen to metal, it automatically means for them that their psyche is more developped. And that's just unrealistic and a lie.

Written by Damnated on 20.07.2009 at 22:34

tbh there is no connection between a persons musical preference and their intelligence.

That's a bold statement to make. Can you offer statistics to support it?

I am quite certain there is correlation there. I am not sure about the exact nature of the connection, and I don't know how apparent the deviation from the norm is, but it seems very likely that there is some correlation.

I doubt it is direct, ie. intelligence determines musical preference. Rather, I think it works through sub-cultures, social status, education and other forms of art. For example, classical training in music since childhood (and all musical training) evidently do enhance intelligence. Therefore, because classical training is probably the most common and usually the most thorough and highest quality musical training children get, there's bound to be some correlation between intelligent people and fans of classical music. I am sure there are plenty of similar examples.

And that's not even the whole truth: we're not talking merely about intelligence, but about education. That's as much a cultural and social factor, as it is a matter of inherent intelligence.

BloodTears got it right in her first paragraph: It's probably not about the inherent qualities of musical styles (or people's intelligence) per se. It's about circumstances, and it's quite likely that you can find correlation between the circumstances, mental capacity, level of education and artistic (including musical) interests of various people.

Written by IronAngel on 21.07.2009 at 17:18

For example, classical training in music since childhood (and all musical training) evidently do enhance intelligence.

Somehow this statement keeps on popping up but I have never seen any proof that musical training enhances intelligence.

Iron Angel: That makes sense.

Written by BloodTears on 21.07.2009 at 18:20

Iron Angel: That makes sense.

Why does it make sense to you? I don't see the correlation between playing music and becoming more intelligent. I have talked to loads of musicians who aren't inelligent/smart at all.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 21.07.2009 at 18:48

Written by BloodTears on 21.07.2009 at 18:20

Iron Angel: That makes sense.

Why does it make sense to you? I don't see the correlation between playing music and becoming more intelligent. I have talked to loads of musicians who aren't inelligent/smart at all.

I think it's based on logic. I's like maths, playing with numbers, or writting, playing with words. Music is playing with notes, of course you need to know a minimum about music to understand how notes work but it's one of those things that keep the brain active and exercises it thus allowing for greater intelligence over years. A lot of people play instruments without knowing anything about music, they cannot read music, they just feel one note follows well after another or learn techniques by praticing other people's music. And anyhow, creativity is a form of intelligence, therefore playing music (as long as you play your own stuff) is a form of creativity.

Metalheads are smarter, more creative, more gentle, different, and better than everyone else because they want to believe such things are true.

it's amazing how often this shit floats up to the top of the forums on this site from time to time.

metal fans are just a cross-section of society as a whole. some are smart, some are as intelligent as a box of rocks. some are in the middle.

just like the fans of <insert genre here>.

people just like to cling to some inane belief that their social set is somehow superior to everyone else in order to boost their self esteem.

As usual with psychology, it is not certain. However, there are several studies which suggest a correlation between musical training (not just listening to music, though) and cognitive skills. One I could immediately track down was Schellenberg's report:

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/musiciq.pdf

In school, I have read of several similar reports. I don't remember any specifics anymore (psychology was never my main interest), and I'm not sure whether they've been accepted or disputed by the majority of scientists. Seems likely, though.

Written by BitterCOld on 21.07.2009 at 20:09

Metalheads are smarter, more creative, more gentle, different, and better than everyone else because they want to believe such things are true.

it's amazing how often this shit floats up to the top of the forums on this site from time to time.

metal fans are just a cross-section of society as a whole. some are smart, some are as intelligent as a box of rocks. some are in the middle.

just like the fans of <insert genre here>.

people just like to cling to some inane belief that their social set is somehow superior to everyone else in order to boost their self esteem.

I am sure that's all true. I share your distaste for such hubris.

It doesn't mean it can't be based on reality, though. I'm not looking at this from a metalhead point of view: I think it's more interesting to look at the correlation between education, intelligence and music preferences of a variety of people, in different social environments and with different genre associations.

No part of your personality is independent of the whole. Humans are physical, psychological and social beings at the same time, and every function, thought or public action is related to the bigger picture. It's fallacy to deny all connection between musical preference, neurological traits and social factors. These three dimensions of a human being are present in everything else, so why not music taste?

Of course, giving too much emphasis to this connection, or simplifying it to feel better about oneself, is just as big fallacy.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 21.07.2009 at 18:48

Written by BloodTears on 21.07.2009 at 18:20

Iron Angel: That makes sense.

Why does it make sense to you? I don't see the correlation between playing music and becoming more intelligent. I have talked to loads of musicians who aren't inelligent/smart at all.

I was talking about what he said about my statement. He quoted what I had written before.

And as for that part, I really don't see a correlation between playing music and becoming more intelligent, if anything you know your instrument a lot better.

Yep. sum of all our parts, not just musical preferences.

never mind the fact folks could possibly enjoy more than one type of music...

i'm "smart", i have a nice college degree that says so. i received good grades and i have a swell way with words.

is this because i am a metal fan? is this as a result of my being a metal fan? or the fact i also grew up on new wave and punk? or that my mother played Mozart around the house all the time when i was young. or nothing to do with it at all?

if anything, i'd credit punk rock far more than any other genres for encouraging academic pursuits on my part.

my social circles, as a mid-30's white collar worker, include teachers with Masters degrees, lawyers, engineers, folks in health care. my friends are all in the same area code intelligence wise, as well as level of education (there is not necessarily a direct correlation between the two). i have a couple friends who are fucking geniuses.

of that circle, only one listens to metal at all (and he'd likely be branded a poser by some on this board, which is laughable because when one is in one's 30's, one generally doesn't care about being thought of as 'cool' to people half their age and just like what one likes)... some listen to Jimmy Buffet, some to ska, some to pop. some are pretty musically ambivalent. My wife, who has a Masters, has purchased less songs from iTunes/new cds in the past five years than i have the past five months.

one of my genius friends loves Oingo Boingo and Mojo Nixon... the other loves poppy swedish hardcore techno - even though he doesn't speak a word of Swedish. Go figure.

so from my perspective, i just don't see it.

i just see that people are people and have their own tastes and interest. some interests which encourage intellectual growth, some which deaden it - and these pursuits are taken up by folks of all musical interests as well. and these extend well beyond just simple musical tastes.

some metalheads are smart, undoubtedly.

others, well, not so much, but will cling to a myth like this.

Personaly I think yes its true but dont get me wrong, because how can youi know what ordinary people are, maybe he's some scientist, man who build good ship, historian or whatever, so we mewtalheads show us like metalhead, all know who we are, but those ordinary people who play selpfone and say thet Wisnton Churchill never exist(I saw some doc many new brits even dont know he existed) so yes we are more innteligent how other people, but some metalheads are stupid to you shood be real like you, person then you can say you're intelegint not poser who wanna be somebody, somebody cool

For me in school I was only real metalhead n learning was easy many thinks I known before, same in uni, in uni (I study historry) there more metalheads and weird we all somehow pass all exames easely how normal people.

Tullkas - I agree about firts part but metal somehow is undergrojnd, tell me where you see any metal conmected item in TV and media?

Norm - I agree whit you firts be metalhead we shood ''grow up'' till it because many choose what they can find in mainstreem, and to be someone diferent you need brains, also some knowlege where find soemthing more whats based on underground

Elio - Well somehow I agree because those BM fans who can burn church, old from 12 century , man Fabrizio and Yuriy from Irridicibili has more brains even Bocia has more brains n intelect how those who alowe hate n rage countroll them selfs

BloodTreaes - well also it depends what your fam,ilyt are sorry stupid family rase more stupiedest child how they are and its fact, aducation, how you rase him, etc is important

Summary yes n no, because how can you tell if you dont know people, I know many non metalheads whoäs intelectual but generaly 30% of them are because how all world poeple can be whit same inntelect?
I know many metalheads n many of them are stupid, but its hard quasten, better ve say we're diferent and we have diferent pfilsosphy
There many bikers in workd but how many are ''outlaw'' 1% gangs? there why there's 1%

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 21.07.2009 at 17:21

Written by IronAngel on 21.07.2009 at 17:18

For example, classical training in music since childhood (and all musical training) evidently do enhance intelligence.

Somehow this statement keeps on popping up but I have never seen any proof that musical training enhances intelligence.

As a learner of musical theory myself I can say that it can easily be compared to learning math or learning how to read, it's a study like any other and when you really want to dig deep, musical theory can end up being fairly complex.

I wouldn't think that it can magically increase your intelligence but I do believe that it can (if practiced enough by someone) make you a more perceptive or creative person. Let's face it, musicians have a creativity that others might not have, doctors have a sense of responsibility and a care for people that others don't have. I guess i can go on with these examples. Though you can never be to stereotypical because some doctors can appreciate the more scientific aspect of their job and view their patients as more of a task or personal challenge. So that last part sort of answers the question to a certain degree, that you'll find all sorts of people in the world and as far as I know metalheads are considered people. Nothing's black and white.

Written by Visioneerie on 21.07.2009 at 22:57

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 21.07.2009 at 17:21

Written by IronAngel on 21.07.2009 at 17:18

For example, classical training in music since childhood (and all musical training) evidently do enhance intelligence.

Somehow this statement keeps on popping up but I have never seen any proof that musical training enhances intelligence.

As a learner of musical theory myself I can say that it can easily be compared to learning math or learning how to read, it's a study like any other and when you really want to dig deep, musical theory can end up being fairly complex.

I wouldn't think that it can magically increase your intelligence but I do believe that it can (if practiced enough by someone) make you a more perceptive or creative person. Let's face it, musicians have a creativity that others might not have, doctors have a sense of responsibility and a care for people that others don't have. I guess i can go on with these examples. Though you can never be to stereotypical because some doctors can appreciate the more scientific aspect of their job and view their patients as more of a task or personal challenge. So that last part sort of answers the question to a certain degree, that you'll find all sorts of people in the world and as far as I know metalheads are considered people. Nothing's black and white.

Of course it is a study. but learning maths or learning how to read does not make a person more intelligent. It does make one smarter IN A SPECIFIC FIELD though, but that's something different than intelligence.