Written by BitterCOld on 06.05.2010 at 21:04

...

I really can't agree considering our own ancestors did exactly the same thing, with a little bit of genocide, ethnocide, deceit and theft in the process. These people are coming over to make money for their families back home. To try and stop this, as an American, is pure hypocrisy. We've lived in a bubble for so long we think anyone who doesn't submit and assimilate and become the all-American zombie should be disposed of. Who gives a shit if there are enclaves of purely Spanish speakers, or Chinese or German? I think it's good for us. Americans are largely ignorant of the outside world.

I realize there is a lot of trouble with violence and it affects you more than it affects me where I live. I do agree illegal immigration should be taken care of and the federal government has been dicking around for far too long. Sure, states should take matters into their own hands, but arguing that it won't foster profiling and racism (I guess I'm a "fucking clueless moron") is being blind. It's like saying there isn't a stigma against non-whites in jail.

I may sound more liberal than you think, but I do realize something needs to be done. There are laws and we must abide by them. There is the whole job, violence and medical issue and they must be fixed. But you don't get stopped in the middle of the street and asked to provide your identification, do you? Obviously immigrants should have their papers on them like we have our ID (just another form of control, I mean for fuck's sake we're numbered!) but I'm still wondering how they determine who an illegal immigrant is. Obviously skin color is the first idea that comes to mind. The moment that happens Uncle Sam becomes Uncle Adolf. They're not the other, they're fellow humans.

We live in an age of internationalism, interdependence and evolving ideas of what it means to be human. To deny such things is to welcome a new dark age. We need to get over our xenophobic tendencies and embrace our fellow human.

Written by Clintagräm on 07.05.2010 at 19:26

Written by BitterCOld on 06.05.2010 at 21:04

...

I really can't agree considered our own ancestors did exactly the same thing, with a little bit of genocide, ethnocide, deceit and theft in the process.

because only our ancestors engaged in such behavior, correct?

it's funny, when ever that argument comes up as a means of denigrating America, it's never really put into context against either history or what was going on elsewhere in the world.

so i take any "our ancestors' argument with a grain of salt.

Written by BitterCOld on 07.05.2010 at 19:45

because only our ancestors engaged in such behavior, correct?

it's funny, when ever that argument comes up as a means of denigrating America, it's never really put into context against either history or what was going on elsewhere in the world.

so i take any "our ancestors' argument with a grain of salt.

Well see, I really am an American and whether or not others were doing it worse is no excuse. I really do think it is important to note because you get a whole new idea of what it means to be a hypocrite. It's like talking about freedom and evoking Thomas Jefferson. I guess we're all just feeding the machine in our own way, right? Ignore it if you want, like most other Americans, but you really didn't answer any of my other points.

Regardless, to fix the problem you have to combat the source and that's Mexico. I'm sure you'll agree, but if we tried to step in and fix the problem's origin we'd be screamed at and called world police. But I think that's the only way to actually make headway on the problem. I think the EU has a good idea and I think North America, and maybe even the whole western hemisphere, should think about the it.

Sent you a nice long pm rather than dragging it out here.

I heard in radio Arizona will shut down power to Los Angelos (:lol: LA in dark, murder, rape, robery) because they critisize this law...when cops can ask show document to ewery suspect, idiotic its not racism, its not nazies but simply think show ID , if you're clear you have nothing to hide, if you're imigrant they simply send you home not kill you or slave you

Okay, aside from the fact that the US was built by people from other countries (Well, that and on the bodies of it's native inhabitants) the problem here is that this law really is just wrong.

Now aside form the country spending the last 6yrs sending a mixed message about naturalization (Mostly during election years an mainly for voting support of a candidate) this law basically is going to cause issues. Arizona already has a skinhead population that generally is known for targeting Latino's. Arizona also did try to drop Martin Luther King Jr. Day a while back as well (Public Enemy even wrote a song about that one). This time Arizona has pretty much making a law that will have racial profiling be a regular occurrence. Now to be honest with you I Can tell you that this "Applies to all illegals" but at the same time we generally don't try to kick out white cultures.

Ultimately here, this law should be repealed because it's really targeting one group of people which is technically illegal to do in the States. Then again I'm also a little bit surprised the US hasn't also lined up the national guard along the border points and given them tanks , guns and choppers to just start shooting whoever moves close enough. Then again it's probably the next step in "Securing Arizona" and "hopefully" Sarah Pailin will have a rousing support speech for this one as well when it happens.

Another thing to bring up... The US is not complaining about Canada swinging over the border (We just complained because their med costs were realistic compared to the costs for a lot of meds here). We're not trying to prevent tourism from Europe, we're trying to keep an ethnicity out. No matter how you cut it, that's really what this law is doing.

Mr. English up top is right, the deportees would be sent back to wherever they came from. The problem is that in Mexico (especially around the border with the US) there are often cartel skirmishes. The state of living in parts of South America can be really awful as well an a lot of the time it's due to corrupt politics allowing things to just happen to the people. Anyone coming from South America is really trying to do what many people from other parts of the world have done for a long time... Trying to build something different.

I think the only way to fix the problem would be to actually go in and fix how the chain of economic power works in the western hemisphere itself. If we actually worked together to improve life in the countries around us instead of exploiting their native sons. We may actually have a chance to fix things in a way that could be real. (IT would have also helped a ton if the US also didn't help guerilla groups take out democratic governments in the past.)

Do I think that'll happen? No... Why? The US is bent on money so far this millennium. From the way this looks, I don't think AZ will take down the law unless they have been forced to by the federal government itself. (It's also a little bit fucked to see that Obama isn't really doing much by way of speaking out on this. Then again he had his heart set on selling oil so he can get votes passing the "you pay more for it instead of the country reallocating it's money" universal health care system.)

Seems that we, mexicans, haven't learned from little things, I have a hope that this law will motivate us and our government to finally generate more and better paid jobs and better job opportunity in our own country, but only thing it have done is distract us from our real problems, as also create mutual intolerance(more) between both mexicans and americans. Our politicians are supporting to bring down this law, but not because they are truly humanist and solidary people(as if that will ever happen), but because they wouldn't know what to do with so many illegals deported.

And when I say that we haven't learned from little things, is because, for example, first, the border police became more strict, but illegals still entered illegally no matter what, then, they made the border wall, which at this point, I think that our government should've started to do something for the immigrants to stop crossing illegally, instead of only showing that they don't favor that, and now we got this law(Only in 1 state, but I won't be surprised if the rest of the southern US states start to adopt similar laws), and still, we haven't learned, and our government keeps being the same ol' incompetent people we had for years(And seeing Mexico's current situation, I doubt that will ever change). Seriously, what do they want next? Massive persecution? Or even concentration camps? Maybe I'm being a bit too extremist, but really, it seems we haven't learned.

I am from a state that has many illegals coming from California and there is a big problem as far as language/jobs and general quality of life goes.
We have no obligation to take care of or allow illegals aliens to stay here and cost us tax dollars. The Arizona bill simply allows police to check status after they have stopped someone for another reason. To be honest the bill is more humane than the federal law that states the feds can stop and question you with no reason at all. This outcry is hysteria driven by the media and advocacy groups that want open borders. We have a right to say go home if your illegals/costing us millions. Its not about race its about the world thinking the USA is an asylum for anyone that can jump a fence. Were are very tolerant about it considering how much damage it has caused so far. My own business suffers because I have to undercut the people who use a truck load of illegals to do labor work. Most cannot compete with that. I do but at a steep cost.
Mexico needs to grow up and learn to run itself properly so the people prefer taying there.

Written by Hār Wulfric on 02.06.2010 at 01:04

I am from a state that has many illegals coming from California and there is a big problem as far as language/jobs and general quality of life goes.
We have no obligation to take care of or allow illegals aliens to stay here and cost us tax dollars. The Arizona bill simply allows police to check status after they have stopped someone for another reason. To be honest the bill is more humane than the federal law that states the feds can stop and question you with no reason at all. This outcry is hysteria driven by the media and advocacy groups that want open borders. We have a right to say go home if your illegals/costing us millions. Its not about race its about the world thinking the USA is an asylum for anyone that can jump a fence. Were are very tolerant about it considering how much damage it has caused so far. My own business suffers because I have to undercut the people who use a truck load of illegals to do labor work. Most cannot compete with that. I do but at a steep cost.
Mexico needs to grow up and learn to run itself properly so the people prefer taying there.

First how is language a problem? Diversity is good for us. Just ask Michael Scott.

And as for "The Arizona bill simply allows police to check status after they have stopped someone for another reason" this is untrue. This is what the former law allowed for, as well as the federal law. However, the new law requires only reasonable suspicion.

Written by Clintagräm on 02.06.2010 at 04:29

Written by Hār Wulfric on 02.06.2010 at 01:04

I am from a state that has many illegals coming from California and there is a big problem as far as language/jobs and general quality of life goes.
We have no obligation to take care of or allow illegals aliens to stay here and cost us tax dollars. The Arizona bill simply allows police to check status after they have stopped someone for another reason. To be honest the bill is more humane than the federal law that states the feds can stop and question you with no reason at all. This outcry is hysteria driven by the media and advocacy groups that want open borders. We have a right to say go home if your illegals/costing us millions. Its not about race its about the world thinking the USA is an asylum for anyone that can jump a fence. Were are very tolerant about it considering how much damage it has caused so far. My own business suffers because I have to undercut the people who use a truck load of illegals to do labor work. Most cannot compete with that. I do but at a steep cost.
Mexico needs to grow up and learn to run itself properly so the people prefer taying there.

First how is language a problem? Diversity is good for us. Just ask Michael Scott.

And as for "The Arizona bill simply allows police to check status after they have stopped someone for another reason" this is untrue. This is what the former law allowed for, as well as the federal law. However, the new law requires only reasonable suspicion.

We speak English as a first language not Spanish, but we are now working with people who only speak Spanish so that becomes a problem.
I am not some Xenophobe but I will say its very hard to work with people who dont speak the language of the land. I am learning Norwegian because I plan on Living there in the next 5 years years, I respect them so I learn it. I just want the same respect for the English language And we still have a right to find and deport Illegals.

Written by Hār Wulfric on 03.06.2010 at 01:13

We speak English as a first language not Spanish, but we are now working with people who only speak Spanish so that becomes a problem.
I am not some Xenophobe but I will say its very hard to work with people who dont speak the language of the land. I am learning Norwegian because I plan on Living there in the next 5 years years, I respect them so I learn it. I just want the same respect for the English language And we still have a right to find and deport Illegals.

I agree with your first point. I think it's good to learn a second language. I wish more Americans would invest in it, especially in our education system.

But what right do we have to find and deport illegals? They're people working to survive and feed their family which I'm sorry, trumps any idea of nationalism, in my opinion. A right? That is an illusion; and a sad one at that.

Written by Clintagräm on 03.06.2010 at 01:16

Written by Hār Wulfric on 03.06.2010 at 01:13

We speak English as a first language not Spanish, but we are now working with people who only speak Spanish so that becomes a problem.
I am not some Xenophobe but I will say its very hard to work with people who dont speak the language of the land. I am learning Norwegian because I plan on Living there in the next 5 years years, I respect them so I learn it. I just want the same respect for the English language And we still have a right to find and deport Illegals.

I agree with your first point. I think it's good to learn a second language. I wish more Americans would invest in it, especially in our education system.

But what right do we have to find and deport illegals? They're people working to survive and feed their family which I'm sorry, trumps any idea of nationalism, in my opinion. A right? That is an illusion; and a sad one at that.

We have a right to defend our way of life and illegal immigration has drastically changed cities/states for the worse, its no secret our government is moronic and lacks the ability to function with actual citizens let alone 20 mil new from a 3rd world country. We have a right as a country and nationality to maintaine a standard and to be honest these standards are spit on and yet we still tolerate what is happening. I am sympathetic to these people, I am a humanist about it but when you ruin what I have to recreate the ghetto you just left I dont have any sympathy. We were founded as an English country with English Standards and it has made us a prosperous country. Many may not like that Idea but Canada and America have top living standards, Mexico/Central America and South America are 3rd world with a few exceptions. I will stick with the way we do things here and if they want to prosper they should become Latin-American not Mexicans hiding in America. I dont begrudge anyone there ethnic identity, I am myself very proud of my ethnicity and cultural identity so its not a matter of skin/or color or creed its a matter of thousands of refugees bringing the poverty/ghetto they had in Mexico here and making things worse for us.

I do believe it should be easier for honest people with no criminal record to become citizens and at this point a path way to citizenship should be declared but The border needs to be locked down. We have laws and they should be respected. Other countries are much more strict about illegal crossings. I dont think sacrificing our tax dollars to be sent back to Mexico is a good thing for the USA. Mexico is the problem not America.

SHUT THE BORDER DOWN and then give the 20 mil amnesty but it must stay shut down. Reality is what it is and American cant afford another 20mil.

Written by Hār Wulfric on 03.06.2010 at 11:51

We have a right to defend our way of life and illegal immigration has drastically changed cities/states for the worse, its no secret our government is moronic and lacks the ability to function with actual citizens let alone 20 mil new from a 3rd world country. We have a right as a country and nationality to maintaine a standard and to be honest these standards are spit on and yet we still tolerate what is happening. I am sympathetic to these people, I am a humanist about it but when you ruin what I have to recreate the ghetto you just left I dont have any sympathy. We were founded as an English country with English Standards and it has made us a prosperous country. Many may not like that Idea but Canada and America have top living standards, Mexico/Central America and South America are 3rd world with a few exceptions. I will stick with the way we do things here and if they want to prosper they should become Latin-American not Mexicans hiding in America. I dont begrudge anyone there ethnic identity, I am myself very proud of my ethnicity and cultural identity so its not a matter of skin/or color or creed its a matter of thousands of refugees bringing the poverty/ghetto they had in Mexico here and making things worse for us.

I do believe it should be easier for honest people with no criminal record to become citizens and at this point a path way to citizenship should be declared but The border needs to be locked down. We have laws and they should be respected. Other countries are much more strict about illegal crossings. I dont think sacrificing our tax dollars to be sent back to Mexico is a good thing for the USA. Mexico is the problem not America.

SHUT THE BORDER DOWN and then give the 20 mil amnesty but it must stay shut down. Reality is what it is and American cant afford another 20mil.

You make a good point but you're still treating illegal immigrants as the other. They are people, just like us. I honestly don't think it's right for us to just look after our own skin and deport them, lock up the borders and then hope their own country will do something about it. I agree America is too much of a world police, but what about all of the nations that we have helped and continue to help throughout the world? Yet it seems if they are our direct southern neighbor we don't want anything to do with them.

I would agree though that we should blame the governments, both the United States' and Mexico's and not the citizens but I there are some pretty nasty people about the situation on both sides of the coin. It's because of the national governments' lack of intervention in the problem that state governments like Arizona's are having to go to such rueful measures.

Written by Clintagräm on 03.06.2010 at 20:18

Written by Hār Wulfric on 03.06.2010 at 11:51

We have a right to defend our way of life and illegal immigration has drastically changed cities/states for the worse, its no secret our government is moronic and lacks the ability to function with actual citizens let alone 20 mil new from a 3rd world country. We have a right as a country and nationality to maintaine a standard and to be honest these standards are spit on and yet we still tolerate what is happening. I am sympathetic to these people, I am a humanist about it but when you ruin what I have to recreate the ghetto you just left I dont have any sympathy. We were founded as an English country with English Standards and it has made us a prosperous country. Many may not like that Idea but Canada and America have top living standards, Mexico/Central America and South America are 3rd world with a few exceptions. I will stick with the way we do things here and if they want to prosper they should become Latin-American not Mexicans hiding in America. I dont begrudge anyone there ethnic identity, I am myself very proud of my ethnicity and cultural identity so its not a matter of skin/or color or creed its a matter of thousands of refugees bringing the poverty/ghetto they had in Mexico here and making things worse for us.

I do believe it should be easier for honest people with no criminal record to become citizens and at this point a path way to citizenship should be declared but The border needs to be locked down. We have laws and they should be respected. Other countries are much more strict about illegal crossings. I dont think sacrificing our tax dollars to be sent back to Mexico is a good thing for the USA. Mexico is the problem not America.

SHUT THE BORDER DOWN and then give the 20 mil amnesty but it must stay shut down. Reality is what it is and American cant afford another 20mil.

You make a good point but you're still treating illegal immigrants as the other. They are people, just like us. I honestly don't think it's right for us to just look after our own skin and deport them, lock up the borders and then hope their own country will do something about it. I agree America is too much of a world police, but what about all of the nations that we have helped and continue to help throughout the world? Yet it seems if they are our direct southern neighbor we don't want anything to do with them.

I would agree though that we should blame the governments, both the United States' and Mexico's and not the citizens but I there are some pretty nasty people about the situation on both sides of the coin. It's because of the national governments' lack of intervention in the problem that state governments like Arizona's are having to go to such rueful measures.

I see exactly were you are coming from and in an ideal world it would work out but this is reality and our country owes 13 trillion to other countries. We cant just accept millions of people and magically get enough resources for school, jobs, housing etc.. thats not realistic. America has done plenty to entice people from Latin America illegally and legally but the truth is Mexico is corrupt and is making billions on our tax money being sent back. Its not a simple issue but I have a few points that I am still scratching my head on as to why they have not been done.

1. Minimum 3 waite to become a citizen if you have no criminal record and can speak English ( instead of 13 years).
2. Finish the border fence, stop human/drug traffic and penalize companies who hire illegals at slave wage. (I think we can aggree we dont want there drug gangs here).
3. Force Mexico to uphold its end of the N.A.F.T.A aggreement.
4. A deal between Mexico and the USA for Mexicos oil (They pump it and we buy it from them instead of Saudi Arabia).
5. Share resources to undermine and destroy the drug cartels on both sides.
6. Deport upon arrest/Deport all illegals curently serving time in prison. (All illegals not just Mexicans)
7. Make data sharing madatory between Police/FBI/Military and ICE to better track possible criminal activity/Terrorism threats.

Just a few ideas that could help the US and Mexico exist and partners not enemies.
.......................................

In the end we are talking about about fellow humans desperate for some form of solidarity and peace, the exact same reason many people came to America but It cant jusat be America accepts all the terms of this massive migration. They need to meet out terms and try harder to become productive not isolate in ghettos or communities hostile to our way of life. I still do not think the bill is mean, racist or Anti Hispanic. The wording is very clear instating that it simply allows police to to capture Illegals if found/ask for papers during another police matter. If police dont who will? The feds are too busy picking there noses and Mexico wont because they make money from it.

I think for the most part its a Human issue and it can be dealt with peacefully and humanley but the brutal name calling and rediculess hysteria has to stop or a real conversation will never happen.

Written by Hār Wulfric on 04.06.2010 at 12:02

but the truth is Mexico is corrupt and is making billions on our tax money being sent back.

Not really, just a few states from southern Mexico(where most illegal immigrants come from) are living from money that is sent back, and from those states, are just some communities, not the whole states, indeed, the country loses more money because of immigrants going to the US, than what they gain from what is sent back(and like I said, not the whole country).

Written by Hār Wulfric on 04.06.2010 at 12:02

...stop human/drug traffic and penalize companies who hire illegals at slave wage. (I think we can aggree we dont want there drug gangs here).

I like all of your points but this is the one that stands out. Somehow people forget that the reason the cartel comes to America is because AMERICANS DO ILLEGAL DRUGS. It just amazes me how many Americans think that we are not at fault in any way, on any level. I would agree we need to foster more international cooperation but like you said, both national governments seem too busy doing their own thing. Just another reason why we (I'm speaking as an American about American government) need to revamp our inadequate two party system.

I hate the two party system, I have voted 3rd party when it is Available and I am a registered Libertarian but they wont give up the 2 party system for anything.
And of course Americans take drugs from the smugglers but you still have to stop it from coming in and that involves our ports as well. I dont have a big problem with pot but hard drugs I am against 100%. If you clog the border the cartels will move elsewhere. Its a non curable disease we just have to protect ourselves and if Mexico wants help elsewhere they need to cooperate and alow our military down there. I think there paranoid that we will invade but thats rediculess. We helped other countries with drug problems and oppresion so I think despite our "Media" reputation we have a good track record for aiding other countries. I dont think anyone blames the people for coming here , if my daughter was at risk of being kidnapped or shot in a drug situation on the street I would move regardless of laws. Its a warzone but cooperation needs to happen.

The democrats want more downtrodden minorities to rebel rouse and Republicans want cheap labor for big business and its disgusting these are people and we dont look good as a country allowing them to be worked for 17 ours and get payed 2.00 an hour. As I said earlier this is not our standard of living yet Democrats insist that this work must be done by Illegal labor workers and its all political. Republicans bost about border security while secretly undermining any attempt at hold big business at fault.

We are surounded by cheats.

Written by Clintagräm on 04.06.2010 at 22:08

the reason the cartel comes to America is because AMERICANS DO ILLEGAL DRUGS.

Indeed, the US is their main target, more than any other country will be, so while there's still demand, drugs will continue to be sent there.

Mexico is bad place for living...Nowadays mexican goverment is deploying the armed forces, all the country is entered in a war, 'cause drug trafficants are too strong and people is scared (and nobody is safe, recently a High degree rat (politian( was murdered).... The south of the country might be compared to african countries.. How can people liven in that country? (I live in mexico but i have to admit that this not a peaful country)

Rage Against The Machine Announces Concert In Protest Of Arizona's Immigration Law

http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=57410

Written by Ellrohir on 01.07.2010 at 16:17

Rage Against The Machine Announces Concert In Protest Of Arizona's Immigration Law

http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=57410

Well, Zack De La Rocha is from latino descent, so won't be surprised they're doing this, many latino artists are doing shows in protest of this law, tbh, I don't know if this is right or not, they want to give equality to a group of people in a country where they don't belong, while in their native country they barely get any equal treatment.

There was a case that happened some weeks or a month ago, about a 14 year old boy who was at the border and started to throw rocks to a border policeman, then the policeman shot the boy(obviously got killed) and that caused a controversy, but really, the controversy here is what? That an american killed a mexican boy? Thousands of civilians get killed everyday by the drug dealers here in Mexico, that is, mexicans killing mexicans, but when an american kills a mexican is when we react? We can mistreat our own people, but others can't? Really, I hate when we deal with racial issues here in Mexico, it really shows our hipocrisy towards that. Also, you won't be throwing rocks to an armed soldier, police or whatever if you have a common sense, somehow I feel sorry for that, but who told that kid to throw rocks to that policeman?

Also you wouldnt try to break Israeli military navy blockade of Palestine using your common sense and still there was enough volunteers to try it and to successfully raise a wave of international indignation...who told them?

nice you have mentioned that case with Mexican kid shot to death over the borders - because surprisingly almost noone around the world was indignant at that...

Written by Zuzuz0r on 01.07.2010 at 20:48

Written by Ellrohir on 01.07.2010 at 16:17

Rage Against The Machine Announces Concert In Protest Of Arizona's Immigration Law

http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=57410

Well, Zack De La Rocha is from latino descent, so won't be surprised they're doing this, many latino artists are doing shows in protest of this law, tbh, I don't know if this is right or not, they want to give equality to a group of people in a country where they don't belong, while in their native country they barely get any equal treatment.

There was a case that happened some weeks or a month ago, about a 14 year old boy who was at the border and started to throw rocks to a border policeman, then the policeman shot the boy(obviously got killed) and that caused a controversy, but really, the controversy here is what? That an american killed a mexican boy? Thousands of civilians get killed everyday by the drug dealers here in Mexico, that is, mexicans killing mexicans, but when an american kills a mexican is when we react? We can mistreat our own people, but others can't? Really, I hate when we deal with racial issues here in Mexico, it really shows our hipocrisy towards that. Also, you won't be throwing rocks to an armed soldier, police or whatever if you have a common sense, somehow I feel sorry for that, but who told that kid to throw rocks to that policeman?

Pretty much. By that age, a person should know better than to attack a guy with a gun. Can't say I feel bad. And you're right about the double standard of Americans killing Mexicans vs. Mexicans killing Mexicans. People get killed in Mexico every day, but there's hardly as much of an uproar about that as there is about Americans doing it on a much smaller scale. Or at least it seems that way, based on what I've read and discussed with others. Kinda makes it seem like the world doesn't care about the victims, but pushing their own political agenda as a way to justify their paychecks. Oh wait, I think that's exactly the case. One thing I can't stand is bullshit, no matter the reason behind it.

...not that I'm a humanitarian by any means, as it really doesn't bother me, but at least I'm honest and consistent about it. That's more than the politicians (and several citizens) of many countries can say. Where I live, we frequently have student groups complaining and campaigning to "Stop human rights abuses against Mexico" and "stop border control", etc., which makes me think: if they really cared, wouldn't they be doing more than bitching about it on facebook and yelling at people on the street?

Delving a bit into politics on a somewhat related tangent, I'm interested to see what legalizing and regulating drugs in America would do to the cartels... Call it curiosity in regard to cause and effect.