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The original post

Posted by ZGoten on 07.07.2011 at 16:34
Hello everyone,

so I've been trying for a few months now to get into death metal, not because I want to feel cool or a 'true metal fan' or whatever childish motive born from inferiority complexes one can imagine. No, I just sort of like the sound of it. However, and this is the problem for me, I have yet to find a death metal style I can stick or relate too. There are many albums out there with some songs that I really enjoy. Overall, they all are either too aggressive, too little melodic or just too plain boring, though. I guess my taste walks a very fine line when it comes to death metal, and I have yet to make out that line's borders. But that is where you come into play. I'll give you a few impressions of mine with some death metal bands and albums, so that you might be able to suggest something that I really like.

First of all, I like melodic metal. I've been a fan of power metal for quite a while and also enjoyed some symphonic and progressive stuff every now and then. Therefore the obvious choice for me was melodic death in the beginning. I've tried two albums of Amon Amarth (With Oden On Our Side, Twilight Of The Thunder God) and enjoyed them to some extent. However, the main problem I have with those albums is that all the songs sound really similar to each other. Maybe that is something I can get over after some time, but that has yet to happen. I have tried some Opeth as well. They are more the progressive and atmospheric type, and I enjoy their music when I'm depressed or want to fall asleep, but not when I usually want to listen to music, which is while working on my pc for example. They are just no band, I can casually listen to. Dark Tranquillity (The Gallery, Damage Done) and Scar Symmatry (Holographic Universe) didn't work for me much either. I don't know why though. The death metal album I enjoyed the most so far was 'Tales From The Thousand Lakes' by Amorphis. The thing I really liked about it was how they are melodic, yet not offensively so, and atmospheric, but not to the extent to where you can't listen to it in a happy mood.

I guess that is the sort of death metal I am looking for. However, 'Tales From The Thousand Lakes' is such a unique album in terms of its style, that I have yet to find a band that plays similar music. Someone in the shoutbox suggested Garden of Shadows yesterday. I went to youtube and was quite suprised to see, or rather hear, that they are in fact not too far from the sound of that particular Amorphis album. The thing is though, that they've only released two albums so far and that they've been inactive for over ten years as far as new records go. Who knows if they'll ever release another one? That's why I'm still searching for bands. Oh, and I've listened to Wintersun, which is another melodic death album I like. Besides those 3 to 4 albums I mentioned, I hardly like any death metal that much though, so I'd really appreciate your help.

To summarize: I like death that . . .

. . . is melodic, but not in the way where every song sounds the same
. . . is not too aggressive, I still need to be able to somehow understand the lyrics without reading them
. . . can be atmospheric, but not to the extent where I can't listen to it casually
. . . maybe utilizes clean vocals at times as well



Page 3 of 3

Mik

Posts: 309

Age: 21
From: Poland

  10.09.2016 at 12:00
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 10.09.2016 at 11:49

Probably worth mentioning that the OP hasn't visited this thread in 5 years.

Haha, I see now that the thread was started in 2011. Bit useless to recommend anything after all this time indeed.
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  10.09.2016 at 12:45
Written by Mik on 10.09.2016 at 12:00

Haha, I see now that the thread was started in 2011. Bit useless to recommend anything after all this time indeed.

Yeah, though I suppose it could be at least a general thread for start up death metal. Recommending Clayman and the likes isn't ideal starting ground though.
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Karlabos
Weirdo of MS

Posts: 3854

Age: 28
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  10.09.2016 at 15:55
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 10.09.2016 at 11:49

Probably worth mentioning that the OP hasn't visited this thread in 5 years.

But perhaps he still haven't got into death? We must believe on him. He'll come back
----
If you're looking for some 2016 bizarre music, I got some
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  10.09.2016 at 15:56
Written by Karlabos on 10.09.2016 at 15:55

But perhaps he still haven't got into death? We must believe on him. He'll come back

I think he has become death, the destroyer of worlds.

Busy work.
----
Mik

Posts: 309

Age: 21
From: Poland

  10.09.2016 at 18:52
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 10.09.2016 at 12:45

Written by Mik on 10.09.2016 at 12:00

Haha, I see now that the thread was started in 2011. Bit useless to recommend anything after all this time indeed.

Yeah, though I suppose it could be at least a general thread for start up death metal. Recommending Clayman and the likes isn't ideal starting ground though.

Yeah, why someone would recommend Clayman for a starting point in death metal is beyond me. Hardly anything extreme about that album.
Ganondox

Posts: 915

Age: 20
From: USA

  11.09.2016 at 03:36
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 10.09.2016 at 00:31

Why eould you recommend non-death metal to someone who tries to get into death metal?


Beause it's clear from what he's saying that he isn't looking for death metal persay, but stuff similar to it. Anyway, the comments on this thread are so ignorant as advice for people just coming into death metal. Clayman is pretty damn extreme for people who are not into extreme metal, and the fact it's relatively less extreme is exactly why it's a good entry point. Nile meanwhile is a terrible entry point because of how extreme they are, doesn't matter that they are also pretty melodic. Would you rather I recommend Children of Bodom? That's what first got me into death metal of any sort as I was just a power metal fan, and it's even less death metal than Clayman is. And if you're just getting into death metal, no one really cares if you don't consider Symbolic to technically be death metal, many people still consider it to be technical death metal, and regardless it's still much more extreme than most thrash metal, so that still makes it a good starting point for death metal in general, which is like a more extreme version of thrash metal.
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  11.09.2016 at 12:44
Written by Ganondox on 11.09.2016 at 03:36

Beause it's clear from what he's saying that he isn't looking for death metal persay, but stuff similar to it. Anyway, the comments on this thread are so ignorant as advice for people just coming into death metal. Clayman is pretty damn extreme for people who are not into extreme metal, and the fact it's relatively less extreme is exactly why it's a good entry point. Nile meanwhile is a terrible entry point because of how extreme they are, doesn't matter that they are also pretty melodic. Would you rather I recommend Children of Bodom? That's what first got me into death metal of any sort as I was just a power metal fan, and it's even less death metal than Clayman is. And if you're just getting into death metal, no one really cares if you don't consider Symbolic to technically be death metal, many people still consider it to be technical death metal, and regardless it's still much more extreme than most thrash metal, so that still makes it a good starting point for death metal in general, which is like a more extreme version of thrash metal.

A good starting point for death metal would be a death metal metal album. Nothing ignorant about that. Clayman has no death metal qualities about it whatsoever, so it makes no sense to recommend it to someone asking to get into death metal.
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Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 39090

Age: 48
From: The Netherlands

  11.09.2016 at 14:33
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 11.09.2016 at 12:44

Written by Ganondox on 11.09.2016 at 03:36

Beause it's clear from what he's saying that he isn't looking for death metal persay, but stuff similar to it. Anyway, the comments on this thread are so ignorant as advice for people just coming into death metal. Clayman is pretty damn extreme for people who are not into extreme metal, and the fact it's relatively less extreme is exactly why it's a good entry point. Nile meanwhile is a terrible entry point because of how extreme they are, doesn't matter that they are also pretty melodic. Would you rather I recommend Children of Bodom? That's what first got me into death metal of any sort as I was just a power metal fan, and it's even less death metal than Clayman is. And if you're just getting into death metal, no one really cares if you don't consider Symbolic to technically be death metal, many people still consider it to be technical death metal, and regardless it's still much more extreme than most thrash metal, so that still makes it a good starting point for death metal in general, which is like a more extreme version of thrash metal.

A good starting point for death metal would be a death metal metal album. Nothing ignorant about that. Clayman has no death metal qualities about it whatsoever, so it makes no sense to recommend it to someone asking to get into death metal.



Indeed. Might as well recommend some classic Iron Maiden and ask them to play the album at a higher speed.
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  11.09.2016 at 14:52
Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 11.09.2016 at 14:33

Indeed. Might as well recommend some classic Iron Maiden and ask them to play the album at a higher speed.

Yeah. I'm sure there are plenty of more melodic death metal albums out there that aren't melodeath that can be recommended here.
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Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 16423

Age: 24
From: Sweden

  11.09.2016 at 16:42
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 11.09.2016 at 14:52
I'm sure there are plenty of more melodic death metal albums out there that aren't melodeath that can be recommended here.

Like Dissection! Pretty accessible stuff that is clearly melodic but not related to the melodeath movement.
----
Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  11.09.2016 at 17:34
Written by Mr. Doctor on 11.09.2016 at 16:42

Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 11.09.2016 at 14:52
I'm sure there are plenty of more melodic death metal albums out there that aren't melodeath that can be recommended here.

Like Dissection! Pretty accessible stuff that is clearly melodic but not related to the melodeath movement.

Definitely one of those bands I'd be happy to recommend to someone looking for black metal or melodeath I think.
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Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 16423

Age: 24
From: Sweden

  11.09.2016 at 23:52
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 11.09.2016 at 17:34

Written by Mr. Doctor on 11.09.2016 at 16:42

Like Dissection! Pretty accessible stuff that is clearly melodic but not related to the melodeath movement.

Definitely one of those bands I'd be happy to recommend to someone looking for black metal or melodeath I think.

That's actually how I started when I was like 14 or so. I'd say I ended up fairly well at the end.
----
Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  12.09.2016 at 01:11
Written by Mr. Doctor on 11.09.2016 at 23:52

That's actually how I started when I was like 14 or so. I'd say I ended up fairly well at the end.

That's a good start!
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Ganondox

Posts: 915

Age: 20
From: USA

  12.09.2016 at 22:35
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 11.09.2016 at 12:44

Written by Ganondox on 11.09.2016 at 03:36

Beause it's clear from what he's saying that he isn't looking for death metal persay, but stuff similar to it. Anyway, the comments on this thread are so ignorant as advice for people just coming into death metal. Clayman is pretty damn extreme for people who are not into extreme metal, and the fact it's relatively less extreme is exactly why it's a good entry point. Nile meanwhile is a terrible entry point because of how extreme they are, doesn't matter that they are also pretty melodic. Would you rather I recommend Children of Bodom? That's what first got me into death metal of any sort as I was just a power metal fan, and it's even less death metal than Clayman is. And if you're just getting into death metal, no one really cares if you don't consider Symbolic to technically be death metal, many people still consider it to be technical death metal, and regardless it's still much more extreme than most thrash metal, so that still makes it a good starting point for death metal in general, which is like a more extreme version of thrash metal.

A good starting point for death metal would be a death metal metal album. Nothing ignorant about that. Clayman has no death metal qualities about it whatsoever, so it makes no sense to recommend it to someone asking to get into death metal.


Clayman has plenty of death metal qualities, palm muting, screamed vocals ect (and no, it's nothing like Iron Maiden just played faster). For most people it doesn't matter that those traits aren't unique to death metal, they are traits of extreme metal and that's all the really matters for people first getting into the genre. The point is most people don't use death metal the way this forum does. Frankly this is the only place I've seen that doesn't call Clayman death metal, even the elitists at Metal Archives call it melodic death metal. And you are being hypocritical as well, as Dissection isn't death metal either, most consider them black metal of some sort.
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  13.09.2016 at 11:26
Written by Ganondox on 12.09.2016 at 22:35


Clayman has plenty of death metal qualities, palm muting, screamed vocals ect (and no, it's nothing like Iron Maiden just played faster). For most people it doesn't matter that those traits aren't unique to death metal, they are traits of extreme metal and that's all the really matters for people first getting into the genre. The point is most people don't use death metal the way this forum does. Frankly this is the only place I've seen that doesn't call Clayman death metal, even the elitists at Metal Archives call it melodic death metal. And you are being hypocritical as well, as Dissection isn't death metal either, most consider them black metal of some sort.

I didn't say Clayman wasn't melodeath, nor has anyone here implied anything such; you're leaping to false conclusions. The point is that melodeath contains next to no death metal in most cases, particularly that of Gothenburg metal. To think the two are stylistically related outside of their (misleading) name shows a fatal lack of understanding of death metal. Even the vocals of Clayman are light years away from your typical death metal band, so your contribution to this topic is useless, if not outright misleading. Simply recommending extreme metal in an arbitrary fashion in death metal thread highlights how you are not yet adequately capable of adding to this discussion in a meaningful way.

Dissection are a combination of melodeath and black so not sure why you find it hypocritical to recommend that band to melodeath or black metal fans (which is precisely what I said; reread it). Dissection are no more or less a death metal band than In Flames (i.e not).


On this actual topic though I think Intestinal Baalism would be a good recommendation. Japanese band that plays old school Swedish style death metal but have pronounced melodic elements, like those you might find in a melodeath band.
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Paw!!

Posts: 820

Age: 21
From: Indonesia

  13.09.2016 at 17:10
Dissection, death metal? melodic death metal? which songs?
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  13.09.2016 at 17:43
Written by Paw!! on 13.09.2016 at 17:10

Dissection, death metal? melodic death metal? which songs?

Dissection are basically a melodeath band with black metal aesthetics except the last album, which is basically just melodeath.
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Marcel Hubregtse
Grumpy Old Fuck

Posts: 39090

Age: 48
From: The Netherlands

  13.09.2016 at 17:53
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 13.09.2016 at 17:43

Written by Paw!! on 13.09.2016 at 17:10

Dissection, death metal? melodic death metal? which songs?

Dissection are basically a melodeath band with black metal aesthetics expect the last album, which is basically just melodeath.



Their last one was totally melodeath except for the lyrical content. The band's management had MS remove that album from melodeath nominees because they said it wasn't melodeath but pure black due to its contents
----
Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  13.09.2016 at 19:49
Storm is totally filled with melodeath structures. Amazed how people don't hear it to be honest.
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Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 16423

Age: 24
From: Sweden

  13.09.2016 at 20:01
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 13.09.2016 at 19:49

Storm is totally filled with melodeath structures. Amazed how people don't hear it to be honest.


The moment people hear dissonance and a rawer production... It's gotta be black!
But then you hear the main riff coming at 0:40 and you can't tell me that's not melodic death metal. Sure, the song also has a pretty black metal intro. The second album in particuar is very homogenous in that aspect, mixing black and death very well, but to deny the death metal sound is just blaffing to me.

----
Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
Zaph
The Nothingth

Posts: 2468
From: Belgium

  13.09.2016 at 20:02
Written by Mr. Doctor on 13.09.2016 at 20:01

The moment people hear dissonance and a rawer production... It's gotta be black!

Don't forget about blastbeats.
----
Wubba Lubba Dub Dub
Mr. Doctor
Skandino

Posts: 16423

Age: 24
From: Sweden

  13.09.2016 at 20:03
Also, I actually took a more black example but Where Dead Angels Lie is even more obvious with its death metal structure. Same goes for the self-titled song.
----
Written by BloodTears on 19.08.2011 at 18:29
Like you could kiss my ass
Written by Milena on 20.06.2012 at 10:49
Rod, let me love you.
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  13.09.2016 at 20:47
Yeah, I guess I wouldn't actually call them melodeath with black aesthetics; obviously there's some pretty blatant black metal going on, but certainly a fair mix of both.
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Ganondox

Posts: 915

Age: 20
From: USA

  14.09.2016 at 05:09
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 13.09.2016 at 11:26

Written by Ganondox on 12.09.2016 at 22:35


Clayman has plenty of death metal qualities, palm muting, screamed vocals ect (and no, it's nothing like Iron Maiden just played faster). For most people it doesn't matter that those traits aren't unique to death metal, they are traits of extreme metal and that's all the really matters for people first getting into the genre. The point is most people don't use death metal the way this forum does. Frankly this is the only place I've seen that doesn't call Clayman death metal, even the elitists at Metal Archives call it melodic death metal. And you are being hypocritical as well, as Dissection isn't death metal either, most consider them black metal of some sort.

I didn't say Clayman wasn't melodeath, nor has anyone here implied anything such; you're leaping to false conclusions. The point is that melodeath contains next to no death metal in most cases, particularly that of Gothenburg metal. To think the two are stylistically related outside of their (misleading) name shows a fatal lack of understanding of death metal. Even the vocals of Clayman are light years away from your typical death metal band, so your contribution to this topic is useless, if not outright misleading. Simply recommending extreme metal in an arbitrary fashion in death metal thread highlights how you are not yet adequately capable of adding to this discussion in a meaningful way.

Dissection are a combination of melodeath and black so not sure why you find it hypocritical to recommend that band to melodeath or black metal fans (which is precisely what I said; reread it). Dissection are no more or less a death metal band than In Flames (i.e not).


On this actual topic though I think Intestinal Baalism would be a good recommendation. Japanese band that plays old school Swedish style death metal but have pronounced melodic elements, like those you might find in a melodeath band.


Most people argue that melodeath IS a form of death metal, as it expands to the definition of death metal to encompass it. Either way, it's all just words in the end, and what's important is what people mean by the words they are use. Based on what the OP saying, it's pretty clear when he is referring to death metal he doesn't really care if it's the same thing you refer to as death metal (he included Opeth as a death metal band, for crying out loud). I specified that in my original post in this thread, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said "true death metal".

It's hypocritical because Dissection isn't death metal either (continuing your logic that melodeath isn't death metal), and you were complaining about recommending bands which aren't death metal.
!J.O.O.E.!
Defunct

Posts: 18887

Age: 32
From: UK

  14.09.2016 at 10:08
Written by Ganondox on 14.09.2016 at 05:09



Most people argue that melodeath IS a form of death metal, as it expands to the definition of death metal to encompass it. Either way, it's all just words in the end, and what's important is what people mean by the words they are use. Based on what the OP saying, it's pretty clear when he is referring to death metal he doesn't really care if it's the same thing you refer to as death metal (he included Opeth as a death metal band, for crying out loud). I specified that in my original post in this thread, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said "true death metal".

It's hypocritical because Dissection isn't death metal either (continuing your logic that melodeath isn't death metal), and you were complaining about recommending bands which aren't death metal.

I literally just said in my post that Dissection isn't death metal. Right after I said that they're a mix of black and melodeath and that I would recommend them to fans of those genres. If I'm arguing that melodeath isn't death metal why is it hypocritical? I never said I would recommend them to death metal fans, or to people asking how to get into death metal (like the OP). Why are you having trouble comprehending such a rudimentary point?

Some melodeath has elements of death metal in. Like some tracks off Jester Race. Nothing off Clayman has death metal in. The "most people" argument is argumentum ad populum and carries no weight whatsoever. It's pandering to people like the OP who might not even understand what death metal is that propagates misinformation and is probably why "most people" think In Flames is death metal. Kind of what you're doing right now. I'd rather give an informed opinion.
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NecroToxic666

Posts: 12

Age: 18
From: USA

  14.09.2016 at 20:46
Carnifex is a really good Death Metal band. Their latest album, Slow Death, is probably the most melodic out of all of their albums.
Ganondox

Posts: 915

Age: 20
From: USA

  15.09.2016 at 23:36
Written by !J.O.O.E.! on 14.09.2016 at 10:08

Written by Ganondox on 14.09.2016 at 05:09



Most people argue that melodeath IS a form of death metal, as it expands to the definition of death metal to encompass it. Either way, it's all just words in the end, and what's important is what people mean by the words they are use. Based on what the OP saying, it's pretty clear when he is referring to death metal he doesn't really care if it's the same thing you refer to as death metal (he included Opeth as a death metal band, for crying out loud). I specified that in my original post in this thread, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said "true death metal".

It's hypocritical because Dissection isn't death metal either (continuing your logic that melodeath isn't death metal), and you were complaining about recommending bands which aren't death metal.

I literally just said in my post that Dissection isn't death metal. Right after I said that they're a mix of black and melodeath and that I would recommend them to fans of those genres. If I'm arguing that melodeath isn't death metal why is it hypocritical? I never said I would recommend them to death metal fans, or to people asking how to get into death metal (like the OP). Why are you having trouble comprehending such a rudimentary point?

Some melodeath has elements of death metal in. Like some tracks off Jester Race. Nothing off Clayman has death metal in. The "most people" argument is argumentum ad populum and carries no weight whatsoever. It's pandering to people like the OP who might not even understand what death metal is that propagates misinformation and is probably why "most people" think In Flames is death metal. Kind of what you're doing right now. I'd rather give an informed opinion.


The context of the thread is recommending stuff to the OP. While you did say you'd recommend it to fans of black metal and melodeath, it was in response to a comment saying there would be melodic death metal bands that you would recommend to the OP, and you didn't specify you WOULDN'T recommend it to the OP. Therefor, it's implied you were recommending the band to the OP. Also, the main point I'm making is the OP included melodeath and stuff that's even less death metal as death metal, so you were missing the whole point anyway. You have to use the bands he mentioned as reference to what he wants, not you interpretation of the word "death metal". A scheme is formed from associating similar objects, and the traits are derived from describing the scheme - not the other way around. I'm seriously standing to wonder if anyone read the original post, or they just based their recommendations from the topic title. Okay, Troy clearly did, but there I'd say the problem is the assumption that death metal is somehow better than non-death metal, which is the wrong angle for tackling the question, and that's what I based my post on. I specifically chose Clayman because it fit his qualifications (melodic, but not in manner so the songs sound the same, not too aggressive, not too atmospheric, and has some clean vocals, notice there is nothing specifying it has to be death as people here define it), while many the bands people have been recommending absolutely do not fit that criteria eg. Intestine Baalism is way too aggressive as he defined it, the vocals are completely incomprehensible. It should also be noted he SPECIFICALLY SAID HE WASN'T TRYING TO GET INTO PURE DEATH METAL, and someone else also recommended Symbolic from Death and no one whined about it then.

I really fail to see how Jester Race is anymore death metal than Clayman is aside from the vocals being slightly deeper, otherwise it really sounds more black metal than death metal. No pinch harmonics, downtuned guitars, palm-muting, or any other traits associated with death metal, but not black metal. At least Clayman has more palm muting, so in that aspect it has more traits of death metal than Jester Race does. It's also the more aggressive album IMO.

"The "most people" argument is argumentum ad populum and carries no weight whatsoever." Actually, it DOES in this particular context, because there is nothing objective about what is or is not metal or a specific subgenre of such. Ultimately genre labels are just words, and words mean what people use them to mean. Unless there is some central council to define what makes death metal, there is no reason that argument doesn't work here. If you want to make an argument from historical context instead, then Clayman would still be death metal as it's roots are in such. It just takes subsequent influence from nu metal...which also takes influence from death metal.

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